Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

The only thing i actually know about Tekken is that it's connected to the Digimon universe.

With Lili showing up in one of the Digimon games just chilling in the Digital world with her Digimon partner Numemon.

 

[fogbadge]

The only thing i actually know about Tekken is that it's connected to the Digimon universe.

With Lili showing up in one of the Digimon games just chilling in the Digital world with her Digimon partner Numemon.

tekken would never be the same again if numemon was a fighter

unless there’s already a poop flinging toilet slug I’m unaware of

 

[Idon]

tekken would never be the same again if numemon was a fighter

unless there’s already a poop flinging toilet slug I’m unaware of

If you ask a Tekken fan, that's how they'd describe Akuma

 

[fogbadge]

On the subject of fighting games: I think I first learned about tekken through soul calibur. See I got into the game cube version of SC2 cause of link and best friend had the ps2 version

 

[dezeray112]

I never knew a ton about SF lore before that despite watching the live action movies, the American cartoon and a few anime movies. Not much from the games themselves.

I've watched the live action film and parts of the American cartoon (which were both horrible) as well as the Street Fighter II animated film and the II V series (both of which were my favourites.) I also believe that a new live action Street Fighter film by Legendary Pictures is going to be in the works.

Since we’re on the topic of fighting game reps in Smash, what other fighting game characters would you like to see? Who do you feel is most likely to be next? Here are some of mine:

Fulgore
Black Orchid
Hisako
Glacius
Sub-Zero
Scorpion
Nightmare
Astaroth
Sol Badguy
Hakumen
Susanoo
Guile
Vega
Cammy
Jin Kazama

My top three would be Fulgore, Sub-Zero, and Nightmare.

Here is mine:

• Street Fighter: Chun-Li, M. Bison, Juri Han, Rashid.
• Tekken: Jin Kazama, Paul Phoenix, King, Lili.
• Mortal Kombat: Sub-Zero, Scorpion, Liu Kang, Kitana.
• SNK: Kyo Kusanagi (King of Fighters), Rock Howard (Garou), Nakoruru (Samurai Shodown.)
• Dead or Alive: Kasumi, Ayane, Ryu Hayabusa (if that counts.)
• Guilty Gear: Sol Badguy, Ky Kiske, May.
• Darkstalkers: Demitri Maximoff, Anakaris, Hsien-Ko, Morrigan Aensland.
• Virtua Fighter: Akira Yuki, Jacky Bryant, Sarah Bryant.
• SoulCalibur: Siegfried Schauffen, Nightmare, Heishiro Mitsurugi, Sophitia Alexandria.
• Killer Instinct: Jago, Fulgore, Black Orchid.

On the subject of fighting games: I think I first learned about tekken through soul calibur. See I got into the game cube version of SC2 cause of link and best friend had the ps2 version

Same here.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

On the subject of fighting games: I think I first learned about tekken through soul calibur. See I got into the game cube version of SC2 cause of link and best friend had the ps2 version

I hate that they did an HD remaster of soul calibur 2, but didnt release it on Nintendo platforms so Link was stuck on the gamecube while the other guests got to come back.

 

[fogbadge]

I hate that they did an HD remaster of soul calibur 2, but didnt release it on Nintendo platforms so Link was stuck on the gamecube while the other guests got to come back.

i know what you mean

 

[Speed Weed]

I kind of feel the same way about Terry. He's a character with an incredibly rich legacy, spanning 30 years and ongoing. He's a symbol used to represent the company that owns him. And he provides neo geo representation. He's pretty much the ideal third party, but he existed outside the smash speculation bubble, so people question his inclusion, which I find kind of baffling.

To be honest I think a lot of the ignorance and dismissal irt Terry's inclusion just came from most Smash fans not really being knowledgeable at all about old arcade culture. Aside from the discussed points about fans of a Nintendo game naturally being most familiar with Nintendo games, I also think there are broader points to be made about where the Smash Bubble (tm)'s preferences sit.

I once saw someone say that in the earlier years of the video game "scene", there were more or less three separate major industries: you had arcades, consoles and computers (in recent years I think you can throw in mobile games as a major fourth sect too). And what Smash fans tend to be most familiar with is console games. Again, that's normal, that's understandable, this fandom mostly comprises of fans of Nintendo who are primarily a console manufacturer. But it does mean that when we get someone whose legacy mainly sits in one of the other sects, there can be some confusion and dismissal with the exception of cases where the character in question really has fully crossed over into the gaming mainstream like Pac-Man or Ryu. That I think is what happened with Terry.

For example with computers.....I would argue there's been more cross-pollination when it comes to more recent stuff thanks to easily-accessible platforms like Steam, but even then there are blind spots - and when you pull back to before these platforms were a thing, and start looking at old-school PCs like say, the Spectrum, DOS, the Commodore family, MSX, PC-88/98, whathaveyou, despite plenty of majorly influential output coming out on those, most of this fandom won't know **** about them! (Again, understandably so. Not everyone can be some all-knowing arbiter of everything gaming-related) Because they're like its own little separate niche, so with the exception of the odd mega-mainstream crossover example like Doom, a lot of that output goes completely unnoticed. How many Smash fans do you think know what Ultima or Wizardry are? How many of them do you think know what, say, Myst is? How many of them do you think are familiar with the old Sierra adventure games, or the British microcomputer industry, or the "cinematic platformers" pioneered by the likes of Jordan Mechner and Delphine Software? (....ok they might know Prince of Persia but I digress) Hell, I'm no expert on this either! I'm an arcadehead through and through, I'm very much just relaying the extent of my own basic knowledge. And that's not even getting into old Japanese computer games, whose Venn diagram of overlap with the Smash fandom is practically two separate circles - I think that's why, for example, it took so long for Falcom to get a foothold in Smash speculation, despite games like Ys and Trails and such being ridiculously beloved in Japan, since so much of their old legacy is in that space, and even a lot of their more relatively recent-ish stuff was primarily PC-based. It took a lot of big fans of the company stumping for them, plus that one big video being paraded around, plus that one fake text leak, that helped them gain visibility, I think.

And now we get to arcade games, which in a lot of cases are very much the same situation, where a lot of the culture around them is its own niche separate from what this fandom knows. In particular I think the idea of arcade culture in this fandom tends to be the hyper-simplified mainstream "pop history" version of "once there was Space Invaders then Pac-Man then Donkey Kong then SFII and Mortal Kombat and that's it". Again, that's understandable. A lot of old arcade culture is kind of its own separate thing. But again, it does mean that once we get someone who's a part of this niche, who's, as you mentioned, outside the "bubble", people get confused. Thing is, I mention the previous sort of very simplified mainstream timeline, but if you dive into various sources relating to arcade culture - whether it be magazine scans, accounts preserving this old material (I recommend It's Fantastic!), whathaveyou - primarily Japanese sources at that, you basically unravel a whole other world, this huge fervent fan culture celebrating a ton of these games, well beyond the aforementioned mainstream version of the events. And during the 90s, SNK was, indeed, at the forefront of JP arcade culture. They were massively popular back then, basically the closest ones to standing toe-to-toe with Capcom. If you look back at these aforementioned sources, you'll see how big of a presence they had in 90s JP arcade culture, doujin culture, etc. Capcom vs. SNK literally came about because a magazine accidentally led people to believe it was gonna happen and there was such an uproar that Capcom and SNK got in contact with each other. They were icons of the JP arcade scene. So from that perspective? Yeah, Terry is massively deserving, and I'm incredibly happy he got in and am in full support of his inclusion. Hell, you could also of course bring up SNK's popularity in places like South America. But all of that culture is very much a separate thing from the so-called Smash bubble, which is very console-centric and especially very anglocentric. You could bring up for the former that they technically did have a console in the form of the Neo Geo, and that's probably where people might know them from if they did know them, but keep in mind that it was mega expensive and thus did not have the reach of a Nintendo or a PlayStation. But yeah, point is a lot of that old arcade culture and many of the games that were popular in it (up to and including SNK's output) are very much closed off from the Smash fanbase, the Venn diagram there doesn't have a ton of overlap. Like, how many Smash fans you think will know of the influence of, say for example, Xevious? That one for example is why I immensely appreciate Smash going in for a lot of that old Namco arcade ****, much of which was popular in the aforementioned circles but not so much elsewhere. I like that they did that. Of course, as a huge arcadehead myself, I'd love for us to get more of this kind of stuff, the problem being that a lot of it isn't exactly viable for one reason or another. For example, whenever people talk about what are the big Japanese companies left, I could bring up some names that were pretty influential in the arcade scene and aren't in yet.....problem is a lot of them lack that big popular "face" everyone can rally behind, so they're kind of hard to discuss or incorporate. What I briefly mentioned before in relation to the Smash fanbase being very anglocentric can also go back to discussion of how ppl tend to be unaware of a lot of stuff that's pretty popular and/or influential outside the US, even when it comes to consoles, but I've run on long enough now.

All of this is to say I will push for a Taito character until THE DAY I DIE-

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

But yeah, point is a lot of that old arcade culture and many of the games that were popular in it (up to and including SNK's output) are very much closed off from the Smash fanbase, the Venn diagram there doesn't have a ton of overlap. Like, how many Smash fans you think will know of the influence of, say for example, Xevious? That one for example is why I immensely appreciate Smash going in for a lot of that old Namco arcade ****, much of which was popular in the aforementioned circles but not so much elsewhere. I like that they did that. Of course, as a huge arcadehead myself, I'd love for us to get more of this kind of stuff, the problem being that a lot of it isn't exactly viable for one reason or another. For example, whenever people talk about what are the big Japanese companies left, I could bring up some names that were pretty influential in the arcade scene and aren't in yet.....problem is a lot of them lack that big popular "face" everyone can rally behind, so they're kind of hard to discuss or incorporate. What I briefly mentioned before in relation to the Smash fanbase being very anglocentric can also go back to discussion of how ppl tend to be unaware of a lot of stuff that's pretty popular and/or influential outside the US, even when it comes to consoles, but I've run on long enough now.

All of this is to say I will push for a Taito character until THE DAY I DIE-

Adding to that its notable that arcade games in general are not so consistently weaved into the identity of Nintendo as a company in comparison to other Japanese counterparts. Obviously it got huge with Donkey Kong and stuff like Punch Out as well as the Vs. series reamaining prominent in the rest of the 80s. But even then and especially after 1989, its primary focus was consoles with stuff like the F-Zero machines or Mario Kart Arcade GP lines in the decades since being some of few exceptions. Even their stuff in Japan where the scene lingered much longer than the West, their output was dwarfed by other developers quantity wise.

SNK, Namco, and Sega are in many ways so defined by their arcade lines that in some sense you can't really understand the nature of broader existence without really knowing some of what their history in the field was. Sega initially becoming famous via its arcade success versus Nintendo with its toys, Game & Watch, and pong consoles is a greater explanation of their overall contrasting strategies than almost anything.

I think to a degree its why there can often be a gap by some fans because Nintendo's place in that arcade culture has long been over outside very select cases.

 

[toonito]

Since we’re on the topic of fighting game reps in Smash, what other fighting game characters would you like to see? Who do you feel is most likely to be next? Here are some of mine:

Fulgore
Black Orchid
Hisako
Glacius
Sub-Zero
Scorpion
Nightmare
Astaroth
Sol Badguy
Hakumen
Susanoo
Guile
Vega
Cammy
Jin Kazama

My top three would be Fulgore, Sub-Zero, and Nightmare.

im biased in that i grew up on fighting games so i'd want so many of them in Smash but if i had to boil it down to 4:

Sol Badguy
Chun-Li
Nakoruru
Scorpion

IMO for fighting game reps these should be mainstays in Smash:

Ryu
Chun-Li
Sol Badguy
Kazuya
Terry
Scorpion

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Since we’re on the topic of fighting game reps in Smash, what other fighting game characters would you like to see? Who do you feel is most likely to be next? Here are some of mine:

Fulgore
Black Orchid
Hisako
Glacius
Sub-Zero
Scorpion
Nightmare
Astaroth
Sol Badguy
Hakumen
Susanoo
Guile
Vega
Cammy
Jin Kazama

My top three would be Fulgore, Sub-Zero, and Nightmare.

That's a pretty good question.

In terms of additional characters to fighters in Smash, the one that jumps to mind for me personally is Chun-li. When I think of Fighters, I think of Street Fighter, and Chun-Li has a crossover attendance that rivals Ryu and Ken's. After her is a Tekken Character, either one of the other Mishimas (especially Heihachi) or King, a really recognisable character.
If KOF/FF gets someone else, it's likely to be one of the characters we have mii costumes of/are in the KOF stadium. Iori Yagami would be the go-to, by this criteria. Similarly, Nakoruru from Samurai Showdown, Ryo from Art of Fighting and Akira from Virtua Fighter have Mii Costumes, so they're at least in contention. Other characters I can think of are Bison, Juri, Akuma (villains) or Dan(joke chara) for SF, Lucky Chloe, Kuma and Yoshimitsu for Tekken and Mai Shiranui(if they're willing to censor her) for KOF.

In terms of new franchises:

Mortal Kombat is the biggest fighting game franchise not in Smash(largely by virtue of being the best-selling fighting game franchise full stop), but to my knowledge, Mortal Kombat is banned(or at least, not sold in store fronts) in Japan, which kind of puts a spanner in things. If they can get past that though, Scorpion and Sub-Zero are the obvious frontrunners, with Raiden and Shao Kahn being behind them.

Darkstalkers has been a cult classic for like 30 years now, and while Demetri, Felicia(well...maybe not) or even BB Hood could work, realistically... Morrigan would be the one chosen. She would probably need to be censored like Pyra+Mythra, mind you. Helps that it's a Capcom series, who already have a fair few characters in already. The main thing which might hamper it would be if other Capcom series are preferred before it

Soulcalibur has a long history(including with Nintendo- Link was actually a playable character once), and has a clear frontrunner in Nightmare, the main antagonist. Funnily enough, you could get Yoshimitsu from here as well. Helps that it's made by Bandai Namco, who have helped make Smash. Again, only real obstacle is if they decide they want something else from Bamco more.

Skullgirls has been solid hit, having sold over 1 million copies, and its main frontrunner is the poster girl Filia. Big Band and Peacock could also make good picks, IMO. But the fact that it's an indie game may hamper its chances.

Guilty Gear has been having a rise in popularity with Strive being the best-selling game in the franchise and being at EVO, and the series protagonist Sol Badguy is the obvious pick.

Blazblue(with Ragna the Bloodedge), is likely too niche. I would say the same for Melty Blood, but literally the only character I know from that game is Neco-Arc

In terms of who I think is most likely: Chun-Li, Nightmare Akira, Heihachi, Akuma, Morrigan

In terms of who I would choose personally: Chun-li(She's pretty, cool and pretty cool), King(My cousin has imprinted some of his love of wrestling on me),Scorpion(GET OVER HERE) BB Hood and Peacock(thanks to this video)

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like the only people who truly appreciated Terry's inclusion in smash was the hispanic community.

Because of just how popular SNK is in Latino countries.

 

[Sucumbio]

I honestly knew nothing about Terry before Ultimate. My exposure to neogeo was strictly in the 90s arcade scene and I typically played Magician Lord, saving my fg quarters for SF2.

 

[Perkilator]

If each character had a home stage in Melee, which stages would you pick? For me:

Spoiler

1. Mario: Bob-Omb Battlefield
   • Type A: Super Mario Bros.
   • Type B: Super Mario 64
2. Luigi: Luigi Raceway
   • Type A: Super Mario Kart
   • Type B: Luigi Raceway
3. Peach: Peach's Castle
   • Type A: Super Mario Bros. 3
   • Type B: Underwater
4. Bowser: Bowser's Castle
   • Type A: Airship
   • Type B: Bowser's Castle
5. Dr. Mario: Dr. Mario
   • Type A: Fever
   • Type B: Chill
6. Donkey Kong: Kongo Falls
   • Type A: DK Rap
   • Type B: Donkey Kong Country
7. Yoshi: Yoshi's Story
   • Type A: Yoshi's Story
   • Type B: Yoshi's Island
8. Link: Lost Woods
   • Type A: The Legend of Zelda
   • Type B: Lost Woods
9. Zelda / Sheik: Temple
   • Type A: Temple
   • Type B: Great Palace (new remix that's mostly a piano and violin solo)
10. Ganondorf: Gerudo Valley
    • Type A: Gerudo Valley (original)
    • Type B: Dark World
11. Young Link: Great Bay
    • Type A: Ocarina of Time
    • Type B: Song of Storms
12. Samus: Brinstar
    • Type A: Brinstar
    • Type B: Brinstar Depths
13. Kirby: Fountain of Dreams
    • Type A: Gourmet Race
    • Type B: Green Greens
14. Fox: Corneria
    • Type A: Star Fox
    • Type B: Corneria
15. Falco: Venom
    • Type A: Star Fox 64
    • Type B: Area 6
16. Pikachu: Pallet Town
    • Type A: Pokémon
    • Type B: Gotta Catch 'em All (new remix)
17. Jigglypuff: Pokémon Center
    • Type A: Pokémon Center
    • Type B: Balloon Trip
18. Pichu: Sprout Tower
    • Type A: Pokémon Gold & Silver
    • Type B: Pokémon Crystal (new remix using traditional Japanese instrumentation)
19. Mewtwo: Cerulean Cave
    • Type A: Pokémon Red & Blue
    • Type B: Mewtwo Strikes Back (new remix formed as a medley)
20. Ness: Onett
    • Type A: Mother
    • Type B: EarthBound
21. Captain Falcon: Big Blue
    • Type A: Mute City
    • Type B: Big Blue
22. Ice Climbers: Condor's Peak
    • Type A: Ice Climber
    • Type B: Mach Rider
23. Marth: Dragon's Table
    • Type A: Together We Ride
    • Type B: Fire Emblem
24. Roy: Castle Siege
    • Type A: Winning Road ~Roy's Hope~
    • Type B: In the Name of Bern (new remix using the regular Melee instrumentation)
25. Mr. Game & Watch: Flat Zone
    • Type A: Flat Zone
    • Type B: Parachute (original)
26. Other stages:
    • Battlefield
      • Type A
      • Type B
    • Final Destination
      • Type A
      • Type B
    • Peach's Castle (64)
    • Kongo Jungle (64)
    • Hyrule Castle (64)
    • Planet Zebes (64)
    • Super Happy Tree (64)
    • Dream Land (64)
    • Sector Z (64)
    • Saffron City (64)
    • Mushroom Kingdom (64)

 

[Sucumbio]

Started FE The Blazing Blade on NSO for gba .. cool! I wish I'd played this before but I hate handhelds... But yeah so does Lyn's popularity go back all the way to melee? I can see it at least, beforehand it was a more nebulous agreement with fans that she's cool but it didn't resonate until now. Got me thinking tho ..

Why was corrin not "popular" ? Does her design not do her or the games justice? Are the games ****? Having not played any of the Fates games (and won't until they're on console) I'm again just kinda whatever, I personally love using corin in Ultimate so.. but anyway another question ...

How sometimes we talk about avatar character design and inclusion as playable (like Byleth)... Three Houses is absolutely the most involved in terms of avatar but narratively a disappointment to some, maybe because it's somehow less organic than Blazing Blade's simple Lyn turning to you every few lines...

Btw I have to ask does this tutorial **** ever end? F.

Anyway so if we're to have any more avatars in Smash who would they be? What makes the avatar character "work?" Should they even exist?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Why was corrin not "popular" ? Does her design not do her or the games justice? Are the games ****? Having not played any of the Fates games (and won't until they're on console) I'm again just kinda whatever, I personally love using corin in Ultimate so.. but anyway another question ...

They are in fact ****.

From what i understand it was a combination of a ****ty localization job that made everyone feel out of character compared to how they were portrayed in the japanese version and the Japanese version being pretty mid to begin with.

(I cant confirm that later part i just hear that the Japanese version of the script was way better but still not great.)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Started FE The Blazing Blade on NSO for gba .. cool! I wish I'd played this before but I hate handhelds... But yeah so does Lyn's popularity go back all the way to melee? I can see it at least, beforehand it was a more nebulous agreement with fans that she's cool but it didn't resonate until now. Got me thinking tho ..

Why was corrin not "popular" ? Does her design not do her or the games justice? Are the games ****? Having not played any of the Fates games (and won't until they're on console) I'm again just kinda whatever, I personally love using corin in Ultimate so.. but anyway another question ...

How sometimes we talk about avatar character design and inclusion as playable (like Byleth)... Three Houses is absolutely the most involved in terms of avatar but narratively a disappointment to some, maybe because it's somehow less organic than Blazing Blade's simple Lyn turning to you every few lines...

Btw I have to ask does this tutorial **** ever end? F.

Anyway so if we're to have any more avatars in Smash who would they be? What makes the avatar character "work?" Should they even exist?

Lyn didn't exist when Melee was being developed, so no she wasn't popular back then. Lyn has been popular ever since her game's release though.

Fates is divisive set of games. There's a lot that people love (especially on the gameplay side) but people really don't like the writing and fanservice. Corrin tends to get blamed for all the game's issues and often gets misblamed. A lot of characters praise Corrin to no end, but I view that as those characters being bad and not Corrin. Corrin's worst crime is that they're stuck in Fates. In other games like Heroes or Warriors, they're written pretty well.

And the tutorial in 11 chapters I believe.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Why was corrin not "popular" ? Does her design not do her or the games justice? Are the games ****? Having not played any of the Fates games (and won't until they're on console) I'm again just kinda whatever, I personally love using corin in Ultimate so.. but anyway another question ...

Corrin is more controversial then outright unpopular. Female Corrin in particular has a lot of fans, but a lot of very vocal detractors as well.

Fates sold very well and had a very active fanbase, but without going into it it's story was an absolute trainwreck, which was especially dissapointing when it was supposed to be one of the main selling point. That said Fates is a really fun game, just with some...questionable themes sometimes.

They are in fact ****.

From what i understand it was a combination of a ****ty localization job that made everyone feel out of character compared to how they were portrayed in the japanese version and the Japanese version being pretty mid to begin with.

(I cant confirm that later part i just hear that the Japanese version of the script was way better but still not great.)

I remember people were already fuming over Fate's story when it released in Japan. You can't really blame the localization for that, but weebs will always try to.

Like I don't think even masterfully written dialouge would've saved the rediculous framework the story had.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I remember people were already fuming over Fate's story when it released in Japan. You can't really blame the localization for that, but weebs will always try to.

Like I don't think even masterfully written dialouge would've saved the rediculous framework the story had.

The localization didnt exactly help, i know at the very least that the translators changed the context of certain scenes, added internet memes and outright removed a scene from the supports.

I'm pretty sure this same translation team did engage, which i know was also heavily edited in it's localization in different ways.

 

[SPEN18]

Started FE The Blazing Blade on NSO for gba .. cool! I wish I'd played this before but I hate handhelds... But yeah so does Lyn's popularity go back all the way to melee?

Cool, indeed. It is one of the very best Fire Emblems, especially for newer players. To echo what was said above, Blazing Blade came after Melee but yeah Lyn's popularity dates back to the pre-Brawl era. She is known as the "Western Marth" for being the first protag to appear in an FE game released in the West.

Why was corrin not "popular" ?

Again this was answered above, but yeah a lot of it is that Fates is divisive among FE fans, similar to Engage where it has some real highs with its gameplay but the story gets criticized to no end. Personally I am not even as high on the gameplay in Fates as most other FE fans, but a lot of that is just due to personal preferences rather than me thinking it's poorly designed.

--

As for the length of the tutorial, remember this was the first FE released in the West, so this game is like maximum paranoia in terms of not wanting to turn off new players with too much difficulty at the start. For a new player it will get plenty difficult as it goes along, though.

 

[NintenZ]

I rarely use this site any more I just needed a place to say I finished Tales of Phantasia and would really like to see Cress Albane in Smash Bros.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Why was corrin not "popular" ? Does her design not do her or the games justice? Are the games ****? Having not played any of the Fates games (and won't until they're on console) I'm again just kinda whatever, I personally love using corin in Ultimate so.. but anyway another question ...

How sometimes we talk about avatar character design and inclusion as playable (like Byleth)... Three Houses is absolutely the most involved in terms of avatar but narratively a disappointment to some, maybe because it's somehow less organic than Blazing Blade's simple Lyn turning to you every few lines...

Fates' story is actually terrible. I'm sure it has its fans, but even most FE diehards won't contest that its plot, especially Conquest's, is incredibly cliche, full of cheap drama and only moves forward as a result of its characters (especially Corrin) being idiots.

I don't know if Corrin is disliked overall- I think at least the female version in particualr is popular in the mobile game, although I'll let you guess as to why that is. But I don't like avatar characters in Fire Emblem because the hero worship gets extremely tiring. Corrin, Byleth, Alear-- they're all shallow self-inserts that the world absolutely revolves around. Every other character exists to tell you what a special boy/girl you are. And because you're supposed to project onto them, they're written to be as agreeable and uninteresting as possible-- when they aren't totally silent.

 

[Ivander]

They are in fact ****.

From what i understand it was a combination of a ****ty localization job that made everyone feel out of character compared to how they were portrayed in the japanese version and the Japanese version being pretty mid to begin with.

(I cant confirm that later part i just hear that the Japanese version of the script was way better but still not great.)

They're lying.

1. For one, the Japanese version was still very crappy with the Nohr and Revelations stories. Those ones not even a good localization would fix because those stories had incredibly dumb plot moments and the moments where the characters were out of character were translated directly from the Japanese version. Part of the localization also had most of the characters aged up because of course half of the cast is under 16 and close to the 13 range. Heck, I think the quote by Leo towards Elise, "Try to act like the adult you are supposed to be." was one of the positively received localizations because it's implies the localization team knows it's ********.
2. They're mostly hacking on the more questionable things from the localization, like the infamous Saizou X Beruka C-Support or making Effie into more of a bodybuilder-like character compared to the "small quiet girl that is oblivious to others' shock when she lifts up a tree or boulder 5 times her size". Which stuff like that last one can either be considered worse by some, but better by others when the Japanese localization is just as cliched and not any better with caricatures.
3. Some of the content and DLC was actually not released for the English version. The release content that wasn't released basically consisted of questionable swimsuits you could give the characters, including the younger characters and only made the towel available so that you could actually give some of the characters their "best" item gift. The DLC content that wasn't released was maps that actually gave some of the characters additional dialogue with other characters, with one of the maps being a Parent/Children map where the parents could talk with their children and the "can be anybody" parents had unique dialogue with their children similar to Future Past from Awakening. One of the legitimate criticisms since it actually helped out some characters with their character development.
4. Believe me when I say there are some things in the localization where the Japanese fans themselves considered better than the Japanese version, one of the more notorious ones being the M!Corrin X Soleil support.
   Besides being one of the notorious ones that was mistranslated by fans which made it imply it had "gay therapy", which it didn't and was in fact the opposite where Corrin was trying to help Soleil with going up to girls without feeling faint, it also had nonconsensual drug use(which mainly genderbended the male characters in Soleil's eyes, that was all) and the only reason Soleil "S-supported"M!Corrin was because she fell in love with his female self, which implies she doesn't really care about him.
   When it came over to the localization, they kept the main deal in with Soleil's lightheaded-ness towards females, but took out the drug use and made it consensual "bondage" where M!Corrin simply puts a blindfold over her head with her consent and tries to help her by getting her to imagine he's a damsel in distress thanking her for saving them and when she S-supports M!Corrin, she acknowledges her feelings for M!Corrin without any mention or hardly any mention of his female form, but asks them to take the relationship slow and steady.

As for Female Corrin and why she tends to have vocal detractors, especially in regards to her Fates display(as she and M!Corrin have much better writing in games outside of their own game), because some of her supporters say, and I quote, "She fits Conquest better because she's meant to be more emotional and thus make more mistakes." Which is quite insulting when both Male and Female Corrin make the same choices, mistakes, etc because of their emotions, yet they're fine with F!Corrin making mistakes that kills innocent people, but hate M!Corrin for doing the exact same thing.

Basically, the Japanese version was not better and while some things in the Fates localization get heckled back and forth, like the Saizou X Beruka C-Support, there was praise by some of the Japanese fanbase in regards to some of the localization choices. Basically, the localization was no better or worse than the Japanese version.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The localization didnt exactly help, i know at the very least that the translators changed the context of certain scenes, added internet memes and outright removed a scene from the supports.

I'm pretty sure this same translation team did engage, which i know was also heavily edited in it's localization in different ways.

Fire Emblem: Three Houses was also localized by the Tree House, and while you do see some people complain about some changes made by the localization that a lot of purists didn't like it's still generally agreed that it had a good story. Although the narrative has been shifted to say it was bad by tired, bitter fans who have been arguing about it so long that they've decided they don't like it anymore.

The main twists and contrivances that are most heavily critisized in serious discussions about the story were present in the Japanese version. Mainly

Spoiler

Corrin and Azura's plan to stop Ganon by conquering Hoshido on his behalf because the plot demanded it.

Things like memes being inserted into supports might've been annoying to some but cheesy dialouge is much more forgivable if the story at least had a strong foundation.

Spoiler

For instance Corrin crying over Lilith's death in Conquest was really awkward in how they localized the dialouge, but it was made 1,000 times more awkward by the fact that Lilith had popped out of nowhere to use her tiny fish body to body block for Corrin after being completely absent from the story until that point.

If Lilith was a character who actually like, appeared and had time to develop in the story as an actual character the discussion around that scene would've been "man, it's too bad the dialouge didn't do Lilith justice", not how random and out of place the scene was to begin with. At least in the Birthright route she was killed by a named character so there was some sort of narrative purpose to give the player a grudge, but in Conquest it was just there for random shock value and nothing else.

I believe a good story can still be good even if it's bogged down by bad dialouge. You can at least still see the foundation of the story underneath. But when the foundation itself is a pile of turd, no matter how well you polish it it will still just be turd.

But hey no, it's the occasional memes that are the problem. Even though serious discussions about the story hardly brings those things up and hardly have any actual impact on the story at large. Of course I think the idea that making a localization change to the story inherently makes it worse is a purist falacy in and of itself but I digress.

Gosh danggit those creepy face petting games and Soliel supports have poisoned Fates discussion so badly.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

On a related note i wish they would use the Japanese military setting that Birthright had in a new FE game.

That asthetic was cool and i hate that they only used it once.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

if the next Smash game bases a new FE rep off of either Heroes or Engage, they need to choose between Alear and Veronica (sorry Alfonse and Sharena) just for the sake of having every move involve an attack from a different FE character (taunts and victory poses as well)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

At the end of the day, there is a lot to like about Fates.

It's just an extremely divisive entry. It's not considered a dumpster fire like Other M or Sonic 06. Just a series low point.

 

[osby]

As for Female Corrin and why she tends to have vocal detractors, especially in regards to her Fates display(as she and M!Corrin have much better writing in games outside of their own game), because some of her supporters say, and I quote, "She fits Conquest better because she's meant to be more emotional and thus make more mistakes." Which is quite insulting when both Male and Female Corrin make the same choices, mistakes, etc because of their emotions, yet they're fine with F!Corrin making mistakes that kills innocent people, but hate M!Corrin for doing the exact same thing.

You know, I used to thought it was funny how there's such a discrepancy between the receptions of two Corrins when they are prety much the same character but it makes more sense that it's literally just sexism.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I’d like to say that between all of the past FE avatars, Shez, Alear, and Kiran (if they can count) are probably the more balanced out when it comes to which gender people prefer most…without war starting up

and ignoring how Robin, Corrin, and Byleth are repped in Smash

 

[Perkilator]

On a related note i wish they would use the Japanese military setting that Birthright had in a new FE game.

That asthetic was cool and i hate that they only used it once.

Even then, Fates should've gone all in on the Japanese aesthetic, in my opinion.

Also, I know it would require a massive rewrite, but what if there was no Avatar in Fates and Azura was the main protagonist?

 

[fogbadge]

i was not expecting to find a discussion about fates in this thread

 

[chocolatejr9]

You know, I used to thought it was funny how there's such a discrepancy between the receptions of two Corrins when they are prety much the same character but it makes more sense that it's literally just sexism.

This sounds like an "illusion of choice" situation...

 

[Arcanir]

I should've been clear I meant literally in-game(via dialogue stated). My bad either way.

Ah, then I apologize as well, I didn't pick up your meaning.

I’d like to say that between all of the past FE avatars, Shez, Alear, and Kiran (if they can count) are probably the more balanced out when it comes to which gender people prefer most…without war starting up

and ignoring how Robin, Corrin, and Byleth are repped in Smash

Well the jury's still out on Alear since there does seem to be more favoritism towards the female counterpart both from the fandom and IS (it took six months for MAlear to get in FEH after her), but even then I don't think it'll be as bad as the Corrins.

 

[Ivander]

You know, I used to thought it was funny how there's such a discrepancy between the receptions of two Corrins when they are prety much the same character but it makes more sense that it's literally just sexism.

At the least, while the discrepancy is still there, if CYL means anything, people have been warming up to M!Corrin, with his last 2 CYL appearances having him actually reach the Top 15. Still a discrepancy, especially with F!Corrin recently getting in Top 2 this year, but nowhere near as much as the first 5 CYLs.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Ah, then I apologize as well, I didn't pick up your meaning.



Well the jury's still out on Alear since there does seem to be more favoritism towards the female counterpart both from the fandom and IS (it took six months for MAlear to get in FEH after her), but even then I don't think it'll be as bad as the Corrins.

as long as it never reaches Corrin levels we’ll be good

 

[Diddy Kong]

I feel like the only people who truly appreciated Terry's inclusion in smash was the hispanic community.

Because of just how popular SNK is in Latino countries.

In hindsight this says a lot. The online Smash community is really only focussed on whatever is popular in Japan, that's actively researched. And the North American popularity is often thought of as more important than the rest of the world. Europe let's itself be heard, western and northen Europe specifically. Being from Europe myself am often amused how NA really doesn't seem to look outside of their little bubble a lot even when it comes to this.

We as a community barely know much about the popularity of any player base that doesn't talk English as much, outside of Japan which has a legitimate reason of course. There is a slight Japan bias, which is understandable.

 

[Sucumbio]

Because of just how popular SNK is in Latino countries.

I wonder why tho? Did SNK sell lots of neogeos in S America or something?

creepy face petting games

The who now? Read this as face painting lol!

 

[SPEN18]

The funny thing is that Fates did really well by the standard measures like sales and review scores. Of course, a lot of the success was fueled by Awakening before it and you could argue that any decent FE game coming out in that environment would've been well-positioned. But it's one of those games where many people outside the hardcore FE sphere view it as "just another FE game" whereas more hardcore fans are not afraid to dish on its shortcomings.

 

[Wonder Smash]

On the subject on music, I wonder they didn't add the Battle With a Dangerous Foe theme from Earthbound Beginnings:

MOTHER 1 : Battle With a Dangerous Foe | SOUNDTRACK - EXTENDED

Music: PoltergeistComposer: Keiichi SuzukiMOTHER 1 / EARTHBOUND BEGINNINGEXTENDED

youtu.be

Or find some way to add the Overworld theme from Dragon Quest:

Dragon Warrior (NES) Music - Overworld Theme

Dragon Warrior (NES) Music - Overworld Theme Download all my Soundtracks as MP3 here http://www.nes-snes-sprites.com/

youtu.be

 

[Sucumbio]

The funny thing is that Fates did really well by the standard measures like sales and review scores. Of course, a lot of the success was fueled by Awakening before it and you could argue that any decent FE game coming out in that environment would've been well-positioned. But it's one of those games where many people outside the hardcore FE sphere view it as "just another FE game" whereas more hardcore fans are not afraid to dish on its shortcomings.

Watching ranking videos it seems Gaiden is a popular pick to dump on by virtue of its changes from the original (despite many of those changes returning or becoming staple apparently).