Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

If Ditto were to be playable and they were to be a mimic character, why not make them an in-game Random character rather than a mirror mimic?

Because that's not how Dittos work in Pokemon. Dittos don't transform into random Pokemon, they transform into the Pokemon they are fighting against.

If you want to play a random Fighter, that's what the Random button is for.

Any Street Fighter 2 afficianodos here? Specifically Balrog...

If SF2 gets another rep, it won't be Balrog. It'll be Chun Li or Bison.

 

[Sucumbio]

If SF2 gets another rep, it won't be Balrog. It'll be Chun Li or Bison.

Definitely, I'm thinking more along the lines of using a similar design philosophy for Mac as the Street Fighter devs used for Balrog. I'm not sure how, it just seems if they can do it relatively well the smash devs should be able to also.

But yes I think Chun Li makes the most sense as a new SF rep.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Definitely, I'm thinking more along the lines of using a similar design philosophy for Mac as the Street Fighter devs used for Balrog. I'm not sure how, it just seems if they can do it relatively well the smash devs should be able to also.

But yes I think Chun Li makes the most sense as a new SF rep.

Boxers in fighting games are not universal.

Little Mac doesn't have to be Balrog to be successful.

Moreover, Balrog's success does not mean Little Mac will magically have success if they copy him.

 

[Sucumbio]

Boxers in fighting games are not universal.

Didn't say or even imply they are? There's like Mac and Balrog I don't even know of any other boxers. Oh yeah TJ Combo.

Little Mac doesn't have to be Balrog to be successful.

No, but he should be as viable in Smash as Balrog is in SF2...

Moreover, Balrog's success does not mean Little Mac will magically have success if they copy him.

Copy? Like move for move, no... But they could give him better jump in attacks or here's a idea... some actual combos, like a boxer has.

The SF2 devs managed to make a convincing boxing character without turning him into a worthless POS. It's just annoying. Do it right or don't do it imo.

 

[Ivander]

Because that's not how Dittos work in Pokemon. Dittos don't transform into random Pokemon, they transform into the Pokemon they are fighting against.

If you want to play a random Fighter, that's what the Random button is for.

Awfully weird for a Ditto to be on the random button for something that can only transform into the opponent they are fighting against.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So I made a strawpoll.

I wanted to see whether or not you folks would rather keep Young Link or Toon Link. Make your choice and let's get some discussion going.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Awfully weird for a Ditto to be on the random button for something that can only transform into the opponent they are fighting against.

Dunno what to tell you. It's just not how Dittos work. Smash is wrong.

 

[Ivander]

Dunno what to tell you. It's just not how Dittos work. Smash is wrong.

It's like reality can be anything Smash wants it to be.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

With Little Mac, it’s clear they wanted to take the concept of being good on the ground and bad in the air to its extreme conclusion. It didn’t work out viability wise.

 

[fogbadge]

Any Street Fighter 2 afficianodos here? Specifically Balrog... His design also respects a boxer's limited air mobility, no kicks, etc and yet ... He's really quite op (was a boss before becoming playable in CE). I get that he's a Mike Tyson type, meant to be ridiculous strong and formidable looking unlike Little Mac who is meant to be the pint sized underdog. But still from a fg standpoint they could have done a better job making Mac less alien to general Smash mechanics. I think unlike Balrog, they sacrificed too much of what makes all Smash characters viable in the game engine in the interest of source purity.

well balrog debuted in the works of JRR Tolkien it can't be in smash

Because that's not how Dittos work in Pokemon. Dittos don't transform into random Pokemon, they transform into the Pokemon they are fighting against.

If you want to play a random Fighter, that's what the Random button is for.

If SF2 gets another rep, it won't be Balrog. It'll be Chun Li or Bison.

i take it you're not aware of ditto taking on the appearance of random pokemon in the overworld?

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

My personal philosophy when it comes to the dreaded “4th Party Character” is that it could work if it was a character who is very much related to video games, rather than Iron Man or something like that.
I suggested Necky the Fox earlier, he is technically 4th party, but he is still from a video game magazine so he still fits, the same could be said for Wreck It Ralph and similar characters, who are in a fictional video game, even Gon from Hunter X Hunter could fit into this category.
Another interesting case is Geralt from The Witcher who I have seen tons of people suggest, even though he doesn’t originate from a video game, but thats clearly where people know him from anyways.
There is also Dai from Dragon Quest: Dai No Daibouken, which is a manga with an original story and characters based on the Dragon Quest games, he would not seem very out of place in Hero’s Final Smash or something like that.

 

[Geno Boost]

So I made a strawpoll.

I wanted to see whether or not you folks would rather keep Young Link or Toon Link. Make your choice and let's get some discussion going.

I would remove both unless if they get decloned

 

[Mamboo07]

unless if they get decloned

That would be better.

Having their own movesets to represent the games they came from.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

So I made a strawpoll.

I wanted to see whether or not you folks would rather keep Young Link or Toon Link. Make your choice and let's get some discussion going.

I think no matter what, to best represent Zelda at least one of the smaller links should remain.

Zelda games just don’t always have our taller, teenage/adult link we have from Breath of the Wild, Ocarina of Time, or Twilight Princess. A large chunk of the time, you do have that smaller link. Having both Link and Toon/Young Link covers both of those bases at the end of the day.

I would prefer minor decloning for both and keeping both. Give Young Link his masks and a new final smash. Give Toon Link the Hurricane Spin and a new final smash. But if I had to choose, I’d go Toon Link. I think he feels more vibrant and distinct than Young Link. He’s also more unique than Young Link is.

 

[Pupp135]

I don’t have a strong preference, and it would be nice to keep both, but if I had to choose, I’ll go with Toon Link only because he’s more established in SSB.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Awfully weird for a Ditto to be on the random button for something that can only transform into the opponent they are fighting against.

Obviously just a reference, as we know Ditto is not an actual character in Melee.

 

[Momotsuki]

I find Toon Link annoying as hell. His existence is genuinely just grating. If we could only keep one I'd rather Young Link. It helps that I also find Young Link much more enjoyable to play as.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sometimes I forget that Toon Link is in the game since all I see are Champion and Young Links.

 

[DarthEnderX]

i take it you're not aware of ditto taking on the appearance of random pokemon in the overworld?

It doesn't take the appearance of random Pokemon. It takes the appearance of other, nearby Pokemon. You can find other Pokemon of the same type around where you find Dittos.

Because that's how Transform works. Ditto targets something, uses Transform on that target, and then transforms into it's target. It doesn't just spin a roulette wheel and then takes on a random form.

 

[SPEN18]

Out of all that Zelda has to offer, I don't think representing all its different art styles should really be a top priority. Yeah, you could give the other Links their own unique moves but at that point I'd rather just get something else unique or semi-unique.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So I made a strawpoll.

I wanted to see whether or not you folks would rather keep Young Link or Toon Link. Make your choice and let's get some discussion going.

So far Toon Link is overwhelmingly the most popular choice with over 85 percent of the vote.



I've posted this in some discord servers as well and the most common reasoning seems to be visual variety and being in more Smash games.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

People always talk about how Sakurai had Fire Emblem bias and that’s why we have so many FE characters in Smash.

But think about it. Corrin is bisexual and Byleth is bisexual.

Yes that’s right, it’s not a matter of FE bias or not, Sakurai just wanted more LGBT characters in Smash! We’ve finally cracked the case!

He's got a bi-as for bi-sexuals

So far Toon Link is overwhelmingly the most popular choice with over 85 percent of the vote.



I've posted this in some discord servers as well and the most common reasoning seems to be visual variety and being in more Smash games.

It probably also helps that "Toon Link" arguably appears in more games. Obviously, the one in Smash is based on Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass, but a similar artstyle was also used for all of the GBA, DS and 3DS games so people who like those games will gravitate towards him. Similarly, fans of Ocarina of Time and (especially) Majora's Mask would gravitate towards Young Link.

 

[Momotsuki]

As a rule I have no characters I actively want gone because regardless of my personal opinions there are people that like them. Many I'd passively be fine with the absence of, absolutely, but none I want gone.

Toon Link is definitely one of the characters spared by this mindset. I dunno, he's just really obnoxious in his sounds and animations. Whenever I have to fight one it's just this "ugh, get this gnat off my screen" feeling.

 

[Sucumbio]

As a rule I have no characters I actively want gone because regardless of my personal opinions there are people that like them. Many I'd passively be fine with the absence of, absolutely, but none I want gone.

Toon Link is definitely one of the characters spared by this mindset. I dunno, he's just really obnoxious in his sounds and animations. Whenever I have to fight one it's just this "ugh, get this gnat off my screen" feeling.

I feel this way about young link myself lol people's tastes and everything. Incidentally did you play and or enjoy wind waker?

 

[Momotsuki]

I feel this way about young link myself lol people's tastes and everything. Incidentally did you play and or enjoy wind waker?

I was honestly really put off by Wind Waker's visual style. No disrespect to those that like or enjoy it, of course.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I was honestly really put off by Wind Waker's visual style. No disrespect to those that like or enjoy it, of course.

I'd recommend trying it out. Wind Waker is one of those games that win people over.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Wind Waker did indeed get a lot of hate back then.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Them porting so many Gamecube games to switch makes it really confusing that Wind waker hasnt gotten the treatment.

 

[Garteam]

I like the idea of Toon Link a lot more than Young Link on paper, but Young Link has a much more engaging playstyle than Toon Link.

One idea I've been playing with in my head is having vets that didn't make the base game get added back either in free, Splatoon-esc updates or through an equivalent to the Booster Course Pass that is sold alongside the various Fighter's Passes. Maybe something like adding 2 or 3 vets alongside every Challenger Pack? It'd be a lot more work than previous Smash titles' DLC support but, if there's any franchise where DLC seems to drum up hype, it's Smash.

 

[Ivander]

Wind Waker did indeed get a lot of hate back then.

looks at the thumbnail

Man, imagine these people back then if they saw Breath of the Wild and the disguise scene.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Ditto transforms into Kirby.
Kirby Ditto swallows Kirby.
Kirby Ditto gains Inhale.
Kirby swallows Kirby Ditto.
Kirby becomes Ditto Kirby,
Ditto Kirby gains Transform.
Ditto Kirby transforms into Kirby Ditto.
Ditto Kirby swallows Kirby Ditto.
Ditto Kirby gains Inhale.

People, I present to you the endless cycle.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

9 Years! 1 amiibo left! The journey is almost complete. It's funny how the collection of amiibo portrays the sheer scope of numbers of the characters lot better than the actual character screen.

Honestly, I kinda envy this. I would love to have collection like this. I just don't have space and also amiibo are hard to find at a good price.

Disney! Nomura! Please! Let there be a Sora Amiibo.

Only 1 amiibo to go until this 9 year journey comes to an end. pic.twitter.com/2QTyqEZr1i

— Amiibo News (@AmiiboNews) July 22, 2023

 

[Geno Boost]

Still mad aren’t getting amiibo

 

[Oracle Link]

In 99% of cases when people say that a Nintendo IP might be better in the hands of another company I'd disagree.

F-Zero might be one of the few cases where it belonging to a Sega or Namco probably would have kept it much more active, even with the former's occasional struggles.

The only time i would say this is with classic 2d zelda because nintendo doesnt seem interested in those anymore!
(Just give us zelda make than you cowards)

 

[fogbadge]

anyone else up for a stage based on the the underground caves seen in pikmin 2 & 4?

 

[Mamboo07]

anyone else up for a stage based on the the underground caves seen in pikmin 2 & 4?

Y E S

I can picture fighting and going down sublevel by sublevel with the bosses as stage hazards.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

The only time i would say this is with classic 2d zelda because nintendo doesnt seem interested in those anymore!
(Just give us zelda make than you cowards)

...They made a remake of one like 4 years ago (which would have had the time and budget of a brand new one, and a higher budget than the previous games most likely). Loads of series don't get new games for ages without being considered dead. It's been 11 years since the last new 2D mario other than the maker games, but I doubt many people considered it dead, and now we have Wonder. There was only one year between Link Between Worlds and Mario Kart 8, and I don't think anyone considers that series to be dead, even though we haven't had a new game since then.

Also, they kinda have outsourced it. Cadence of Hyrule, while not exactly the same thing, is a 2D zelda made by a different studio. If we don't get a new 2D zelda on the next system then sure, you can say they aren't interested, but they don't have unlimited staff, time and resources, so just because they made other games recently doesn't mean they aren't interested in making 2D zelda, they just want to make other games as well. (And believe me, I'd love a new 2D zelda, but I'm happy to wait if that means it'll be a better game).

 

[Oracle Link]

I like the idea of Toon Link a lot more than Young Link on paper, but Young Link has a much more engaging playstyle than Toon Link.

One idea I've been playing with in my head is having vets that didn't make the base game get added back either in free, Splatoon-esc updates or through an equivalent to the Booster Course Pass that is sold alongside the various Fighter's Passes. Maybe something like adding 2 or 3 vets alongside every Challenger Pack? It'd be a lot more work than previous Smash titles' DLC support but, if there's any franchise where DLC seems to drum up hype, it's Smash.

I personally like the playstyle of young link more too!
I would say give toon link Fire Arrows and make him somewhere in between of toon and young gamefeel wise!
also here i came up with a decloned adult link:

Basically his Bow would be from OOT (I know i used ss) His Boomerang from TP, his Bombs from BOTW, His Up B is from TOTK And He Has the hookshots from Skyward Sword!
Also he would have something like these Alts:

If i had more room i wouldve included the tunic of the wild and red and blue tunics!
This 1 Adult link reps OOT, MM, TP, SS, BOTW and TOTK
Ascend replacing spin attack is also the only Weird Move i made everything else was already in smash!
Soon ill make the same for Toon Link!

 

[Brother AJ]

I just want to say, you say you were going for the least impactful ones but cutting characters like Hero, Terry, and the Ice Climbers will definitely have an impact.

Well for one thing, this isn't a final draft or anything. I may change my mind. Also keep in mind that I'm not saying cutting these characters wouldn't be impactful, only that it would be less impactful compared to other characters. Of course, if I'm having trouble making a decision there will be some subjectivity involved.

My thinking may be a bit messy in places, but when I think impactful I'm thinking of both how well known a series is and how well known the playable character themselves is. Further, I feel we should consider whether a character was heavily requested or if they fill a "role" that other characters do not.

Terry and the Ice Climbers matter to us, but they're relatively unknown in the grand scheme of gaming and their absence will definitely impact less people.

Dragon Quest is definitely a tougher call to make because the series is so huge and beloved, but I basically chose to cut The Hero for the same reasons I cut Kazuya:

DQ and Tekken are both immensely popular series, but the characters representing them in Smash aren't quite as well known. Seemingly, these characters weren't that highly requested, and both Hero and Kazuya fill the role of characters from a legendary RPG and fighting game series (respectively) that was already filled by Cloud and Ryu.

At the end of the day though, again, if I'm having trouble making a decision, it'll come down to my personal preferences. My list was both what I wanted to see and what I could see happening.

 

[DarthEnderX]

As a rule I have no characters I actively want gone because regardless of my personal opinions there are people that like them.

Because I'm a completionist, there are no characters that have been added that I want gone. But there's plenty of characters I wish had never been added in the first place.

9 Years! 1 amiibo left! The journey is almost complete. It's funny how the collection of amiibo portrays the sheer scope of numbers of the characters lot better than the actual character screen.

Pfft, they don't even have them in Smash number order.