Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Pupp135]

Speaking of transforming fighters, I think they are a cool idea even though the execution of Zelda/Sheik, Samus/Zero Suit Samus, and Pokemon Trainer at the time of Brawl were flawed. I feel like Ultimate improved Pokemon Trainer, and Mythra/Pyra complement each other very well, and I think that both Pokemon Trainer and Mythra/Pyra are fun to play as.

Out of curiosity, if transforming fighters never existed, how would have Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate’s newcomer selections have differed?

 

[Perkilator]

Speaking of transforming fighters, I think they are a cool idea even though the execution of Zelda/Sheik, Samus/Zero Suit Samus, and Pokemon Trainer at the time of Brawl were flawed. I feel like Ultimate improved Pokemon Trainer, and Mythra/Pyra complement each other very well, and I think that both Pokemon Trainer and Mythra/Pyra are fun to play as.

Out of curiosity, if transforming fighters never existed, how would have Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate’s newcomer selections have differed?

• Melee: Zelda and Sheik would likely have been split again, and they’d have to find a new down special for Zelda
• Brawl: Samus and Zero Suit Samus would likely have been split again, and Charizard would likely be a solo fighter to make room for two other fighters (probably two of the Forbidden Seven)
• Ultimate: Rex would likely get into Smash instead of Pyra and Mythra, but they’d have to make concessions to make Rex work by himself; maybe with Pyra and Mythra appearing in some of his attacks without having to constantly be on the stage?

 

[fogbadge]

• Melee: Zelda and Sheik would likely have been split again, and they’d have to find a new down special for Zelda
• Brawl: Samus and Zero Suit Samus would likely have been split again, and Charizard would likely be a solo fighter to make room for two other fighters (probably two of the Forbidden Seven)
• Ultimate: Rex would likely get into Smash instead of Pyra and Mythra, but they’d have to make concessions to make Rex work by himself; maybe with Pyra and Mythra appearing in some of his attacks without having to constantly be on the stage?

well the concessions for Rex would be roughly the same as they made for pyra/mythra. even then I suspect sakurai would just have one of the two of them on their lonesome

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I can understand not being optimistic about getting non-Triforce characters. Though Sakurai has never confirmed the suspicion that he'd be against non-Triforce characters, so it's only speculation that he'd be against them in principle. And even if he was unilaterally against them, we are indeed possibly on the precipice of Sakurai taking some reduction in his role, so that issue could end up resolving itself at some point.

Whoever replaces Sakurai will have big shoes to fill, especially if they are someone much younger than him. Whether or not a new (possibly younger) director means more diversity in the roster or not is debatable. Personally I believe that, unless a Zelda newcomer does incredibly well in a hypothetical future ballot, the Zelda roster will most likely remain exclusively Triforce wielders.

Out of curiosity, if transforming fighters never existed, how would have Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate’s newcomer selections have differed?

Sheik and Ivysaur most likely wouldn’t be playable characters.

 

[TheLastMaverickHunter]

Out of curiosity, if transforming fighters never existed, how would have Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate’s newcomer selections have differed?

I doubt Sheik would have been added without the transformation mechanic; if anything, Wario would have made it a game early (he was next in-line after all).

Wolf wouldn’t see the light of day unless added as an echo, with there being enough time to add Krystal instead. I can see Doc, Mewtwo and Roy returning and Sonic possibly having a better moveset. Too bad Sakurai couldn’t get Geno though…

 

[DarthEnderX]

Aegis I think is so far the best implementation of the transformation archetype.

It's also the transformation that's the least of a transformation. Since Pyra and Mythra are practically Echoes of each other. Whereas with other transformations the forms have completely different movesets from each other.

Out of curiosity, if transforming fighters never existed, how would have Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate’s newcomer selections have differed?

Like LastMavrickHunter said, characters from later games probably would have been added earlier in the series.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If Falco and Wolf weren’t last minute additions to Melee and Brawl respectively, I wouldn’t be surprised if Fox was the only Star Fox character all the way from Smash N64 to Ultimate.

 

[TheLastMaverickHunter]

It's also the transformation that's the least of a transformation. Since Pyra and Mythra are practically Echoes of each other. Whereas with other transformations the forms have completely different movesets from each other.

Like LastMavrickHunter said, characters from later games probably would have been added earlier in the series.

Alph might have been his own character too if Doc came back early.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm not a huge melee player and really couldn't tell how fox and falco differed but in brawl it was better fleshed out imo. Wolf was my favorite of the 3 tho. At least in brawl... In ultimate I kinda wish Krystal had been playable just to add even more variety.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm not a huge melee player and really couldn't tell how fox and falco differed but in brawl it was better fleshed out imo. Wolf was my favorite of the 3 tho. At least in brawl... In ultimate I kinda wish Krystal had been playable just to add even more variety.

The main thing I noticed is that Fox could KO a lot better with his forward and up smashes while Falco was best with his down smash. Fox had the better up aerial while Falco could spike with his down aerial. I think Falcon’s lasers were still slower and fliched while Fox’s were a lot faster but caused no hitstun. Not 100% sure on that one but I think that was the case even back then. I was a Fox main for the first half of my Melee playtime before moving to Ganondorf and my friend was a Falco main.

 

[Momotsuki]

Mythra is still a solid fighter on her own (and would only be better by having a down-B) but with regards to Pyra, I'd make her a lot heavier in the process of splitting them into echo slots. Just a little lighter than Ganondorf. Some Tough Guy (Tough Gal?) armor too, but not as much as Bowser or even Kazuya. But enough to make up for her sluggishness and newfound lack of "press down-B to become a better character." And just for fun, a slightly slower jumpsquat (maybe ~5 frames) to give her that pre-Ultimate heavy feel.

Don't need to change anything else about her besides introducing a down-B of some kind. It'd be a great opportunity to introduce a girl heavy. It'd be cute!

Mythra meanwhile doesn't need anything outside of a new down-B, as mentioned above, to the point where a lack of "press down-B to gain the ability to KO" is a worthwhile nerf in its own right.

 

[Brother AJ]

So I decided to challenge myself to make a roster based on this interview with Sakurai from The Verge. Feel free to play along if you'd like:

Masahiro Sakurai on the future of Smash: ‘I’ve been doing too much of the work myself’

Where does Smash go from here?

www.theverge.com

"I think we’ve reached the limit, at least in terms of volume of content and fighters. Basically, if I were to have the opportunity to work on another Super Smash Bros. game, that means we would have to shrink the roster, but we need to think about whether fans would be pleased about that."

The question for us, obviously, is how much shrinking are we talking about here? The thing is you have to make room for newcomers, so even if we merely cut the roster by 10 you'd have to cut around 20 if you wanted a decent number of new challengers (which I'm sure the developers would prefer).

Personally, I think Sakurai will try to lessen cuts as much as he can, so I think a character count around 73 is reasonable (of course it could be less gulp). Let's go ahead and throw in a bonus fighter and make it 74. 74 still sounds like a lot, but if it's split up with DLC I think it's more manageable.

I wish we could keep everyone, but for my roster I'll be cutting 23 characters (AH!) and adding 14. It's a bit of a mix of what I think will happen and what I want to happen. For fun, you can also list why you're cutting, keeping, and adding certain characters:

Cut:
Dr. Mario (We'll make him an alt)
Rosalina (The unique fighters are the toughest calls, but I tried to choose the least impactful ones)
Piranha Plant
Young Link
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Falco (Oof. He's been here since Melee, but he can come back)
Wolf
Pichu
Incineroar
Lucas (I don't like cutting from Starfox and Earthbound, but again I'm going for the least impactful)
Ice Climbers
Roy
Ike
Corrin (Hardest FE cut since they're so unique)
Wii Fit Trainer
Mii Fighters x 3 (Not sure if they'll be cut due to Mii costume DLC)
Joker
Hero
Terry
Min Min
Kazuya

Keep:
Mario
Luigi
Peach/Daisy
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool
Link (Ocarina of Time version)
Sheik
Zelda
Ganondorf (Will have new appropriate specials)
Samus (Make her faster and with rapid fire shots)
Ridley
Yoshi
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Fox
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Pokémon Trainer
Lucario (Was going to cut until I realized they're now one of the most popular Pokémon ever!)
Greninja
Marth/Lucina
Robin
Byleth (I think these three FE reps are the best to keep. Marth due to being the face of the series, Robin due to Awakening saving the series, and Byleth due to Three Houses being the best selling game of the series)
Mr. Game and Watch
Pit/Dark Pit
Palutena
Wario
Olimar (With Rock, Ice, and Glow Pikmin!)
R.O.B
Villager
Isabelle
Little Mac
Shulk
Pyra/Mythra
Duck Hunt
Inkling (With Octoling Alts)
Snake
Sonic
Mega Man
Pac-man
Ryu/Ken
Cloud
Sephiroth
Bayonetta
Simon/Richter
Banjo and Kazooie
Steve
Sora

Add:

Waluigi (Finally?)
Dixie Kong (Semi-clone)
BOTW/TOTK Link (Fully based around the runes, sage powers, and combat within the two games)
Bandanna Dee
Meowscarada (The most popular gen 9 starter and has a unique magician archetype. It's hard to know who the Pokémon, FE, and XB reps will be, but if Smash comes out around 2025 I think the most recent games are the best bet.)
Alear (Fire Emblem Engage)
Noah (Xenoblade 3)
Andy (Advance Wars)
Issac (Golden Sun)
Tails
Ryu Hayabusa
Jill Valentine/Leon Kennedy
Crash
Master Chief
Geno

Wow, that was rough. I'm mostly satisfied with my roster, but the future of Smash sure is a bit scary isn't it?

 

[Aligo]

well the concessions for Rex would be roughly the same as they made for pyra/mythra. even then I suspect sakurai would just have one of the two of them on their lonesome

It would have definitely been more awkward, that's for sure. Would have been harder to represent game mechanics too.

Mythra is still a solid fighter on her own (and would only be better by having a down-B) but with regards to Pyra, I'd make her a lot heavier in the process of splitting them into echo slots. Just a little lighter than Ganondorf. Some Tough Guy (Tough Gal?) armor too, but not as much as Bowser or even Kazuya. But enough to make up for her sluggishness and newfound lack of "press down-B to become a better character." And just for fun, a slightly slower jumpsquat (maybe ~5 frames) to give her that pre-Ultimate heavy feel.

Don't need to change anything else about her besides introducing a down-B of some kind. It'd be a great opportunity to introduce a girl heavy. It'd be cute!

Mythra meanwhile doesn't need anything outside of a new down-B, as mentioned above, to the point where a lack of "press down-B to gain the ability to KO" is a worthwhile nerf in its own right.

I think you overestimate how well each character would function individually. Mythra really lacks both raw kill potential and edgeuarding and would end up as a more extreme inkling, and Pyra would most likely be bottom 3 due to the combination of no good oos, terrible recovery and mediocre damage and stray hit kill potential. And that is even before the extra jumpsquat frames.

I could see the argument for Pokémon trainer if you wanted to cut a couple of the gen 1 Mons, as they really don't work well together in my opinion.

Part of that may just be that all three are very physical heavy when they are all special attackers in Pokémon. Same goes for Mewtwo if he stays.

 

[fogbadge]

It would have definitely been more awkward, that's for sure. Would have been harder to represent game mechanics too.

like I said: basically the same

 

[Wonder Smash]

Wow, that was rough. I'm mostly satisfied with my roster, but the future of Smash sure is a bit scary isn't it?

I just want to say, you say you were going for the least impactful ones but cutting characters like Hero, Terry, and the Ice Climbers will definitely have an impact.

 

[Aligo]

I just want to say, you say you were going for the least impactful ones but cutting characters like Hero, Terry, and the Ice Climbers will definitely have an impact.

I can see the first two, but why ice climbers?

 

[Momotsuki]

Pyra would most likely be bottom 3 due to the combination of no good oos, terrible recovery and mediocre damage and stray hit kill potential. And that is even before the extra jumpsquat frames.

Give her more attack power and armor. Keep doing that every patch until she doesn't suck anymore, but stop before she becomes broken. GGs.

I'm a firm believer that the best way to balance slow characters isn't to make them faster, it's to give them enough brute force to where they simply don't need the mobility. Enough to where they're good in spite of their drawbacks, but again, not enough to where they're broken. Slow characters should get the Kazuya treatment of "absolutely insane ballistic buffs in every area besides mobility." It's still a downside, but they're just so goddamn strong that it's not a downside that cripples them, rather one that just keeps them from being busted; that's the point of having weaknesses, after all.

Poor mobility is a notoriously crippling in Smash, and Kazuya is, in my opinion, the blueprint for how you fix it without taking the easy way out and getting rid of a character's intended drawbacks.

Just noticing this is a bit of a tangent from your initial rebuttal. Sorry about that, hehe.

 

[Stratos]

I hope Jin Kazama comes to the next Super Smash Bros. game, he could act as an echo of his father.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

A good way to buff big body characters like Ganondorf and Donkey Kong is to improve their ability to recover from offstage so that they don't die nearly as easily. The whole point of being a heavy is that they survive for much longer so this is a logical buff.

 

[Gengar84]

I hope Jin Kazama comes to the next Super Smash Bros. game, he could act as an echo of his father.

Yeah. Jin was always my favorite Tekken character so I’d gladly welcome him as a Kazuya echo. I used to mainly play Eddie Gordo but I don’t have a ton of experience with the franchise. I mainly played Soul Calibur and Smash for my fighting games. I also owned Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Super Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat 3, and Killer Instinct for the SNES but haven’t played a ton of fighting games outside of those. Both Terry and Kazuya are a lot of fun in Smash so I’m happy to see more. I’m not quite as good with Ryu or Ken but I’m glad they’re both here too.

A good way to buff big body characters like Ganondorf and Donkey Kong is to improve their ability to recover from offstage so that they don't die nearly as easily. The whole point of being a heavy is that they survive for much longer so this is a logical buff.

Yeah, Ganondorf used to have a trick in Melee where he could cancel out of his Wizard’s foot for another jump and up special. It was probably unintended but he really needed that for decent recovery.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I mean there's more creative ways to buff a powerhouse then just speed or mobility, and that's to give them a way to circumvent their poor mobility.

Look at Incineroar. He's not the absolute best but he still made a splash in the competitive scene thanks to revenge. It doesn't outright solve his poor disadvantage or projectile weakness but it does seriously lesson them by forcing the opposing player to think more carefully about spamming attacks, and give him some serious comeback potential when he does get past your wall of projectiles or rediculous juggle game.

Pyra's way of circumventing her speed is to be able to switch freely with Mythra, but I think she's suffering a bit from Charizard syndrome where her strengths beyond just raw kill power are being overlooked because everyone gets tunnel vision when your flashiest move kills at 60.

I think you overestimate how well each character would function individually. Mythra really lacks both raw kill potential and edgeuarding and would end up as a more extreme inkling, and Pyra would most likely be bottom 3 due to the combination of no good oos, terrible recovery and mediocre damage and stray hit kill potential. And that is even before the extra jumpsquat frames.

I mean tbf Mythra does has much faster smash attacks and lightning buster, while Inkling's smash attacks are notriously not super great without a roller bury.

I don't really disagree that she'd struggle with Inkling syndrome but she'd still probably be better at killing then like...Squirtle and probably Duck Hunt.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Speaking of transforming fighters, I think they are a cool idea even though the execution of Zelda/Sheik, Samus/Zero Suit Samus, and Pokemon Trainer at the time of Brawl were flawed. I feel like Ultimate improved Pokemon Trainer, and Mythra/Pyra complement each other very well, and I think that both Pokemon Trainer and Mythra/Pyra are fun to play as.

Out of curiosity, if transforming fighters never existed, how would have Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate’s newcomer selections have differed?

Sheik would probably never be in the game at all and instead maybe we would get an actual good moveset for Ganondorf.

So I decided to challenge myself to make a roster based on this interview with Sakurai from The Verge. Feel free to play along if you'd like:

Masahiro Sakurai on the future of Smash: ‘I’ve been doing too much of the work myself’

Where does Smash go from here?

www.theverge.com

"I think we’ve reached the limit, at least in terms of volume of content and fighters. Basically, if I were to have the opportunity to work on another Super Smash Bros. game, that means we would have to shrink the roster, but we need to think about whether fans would be pleased about that."

The question for us, obviously, is how much shrinking are we talking about here? The thing is you have to make room for newcomers, so even if we merely cut the roster by 10 you'd have to cut around 20 if you wanted a decent number of new challengers (which I'm sure the developers would prefer).

Personally, I think Sakurai will try to lessen cuts as much as he can, so I think a character count around 73 is reasonable (of course it could be less gulp). Let's go ahead and throw in a bonus fighter and make it 74. 74 still sounds like a lot, but if it's split up with DLC I think it's more manageable.

I wish we could keep everyone, but for my roster I'll be cutting 23 characters (AH!) and adding 14. It's a bit of a mix of what I think will happen and what I want to happen. For fun, you can also list why you're cutting, keeping, and adding certain characters:

Cut:
Dr. Mario (We'll make him an alt)
Rosalina (The unique fighters are the toughest calls, but I tried to choose the least impactful ones)
Piranha Plant
Young Link
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Falco (Oof. He's been here since Melee, but he can come back)
Wolf
Pichu
Incineroar
Lucas (I don't like cutting from Starfox and Earthbound, but again I'm going for the least impactful)
Ice Climbers
Roy
Ike
Corrin (Hardest FE cut since they're so unique)
Wii Fit Trainer
Mii Fighters x 3 (Not sure if they'll be cut due to Mii costume DLC)
Joker
Hero
Terry
Min Min
Kazuya

Keep:
Mario
Luigi
Peach/Daisy
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool
Link (Ocarina of Time version)
Sheik
Zelda
Ganondorf (Will have new appropriate specials)
Samus (Make her faster and with rapid fire shots)
Ridley
Yoshi
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Fox
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Pokémon Trainer
Lucario (Was going to cut until I realized they're now one of the most popular Pokémon ever!)
Greninja
Marth/Lucina
Robin
Byleth (I think these three FE reps are the best to keep. Marth due to being the face of the series, Robin due to Awakening saving the series, and Byleth due to Three Houses being the best selling game of the series)
Mr. Game and Watch
Pit/Dark Pit
Palutena
Wario
Olimar (With Rock, Ice, and Glow Pikmin!)
R.O.B
Villager
Isabelle
Little Mac
Shulk
Pyra/Mythra
Duck Hunt
Inkling (With Octoling Alts)
Snake
Sonic
Mega Man
Pac-man
Ryu/Ken
Cloud
Sephiroth
Bayonetta
Simon/Richter
Banjo and Kazooie
Steve
Sora

Add:

Waluigi (Finally?)
Dixie Kong (Semi-clone)
BOTW/TOTK Link (Fully based around the runes, sage powers, and combat within the two games)
Bandanna Dee
Meowscarada (The most popular gen 9 starter and has a unique magician archetype. It's hard to know who the Pokémon, FE, and XB reps will be, but if Smash comes out around 2025 I think the most recent games are the best bet.)
Alear (Fire Emblem Engage)
Noah (Xenoblade 3)
Andy (Advance Wars)
Issac (Golden Sun)
Tails
Ryu Hayabusa
Jill Valentine/Leon Kennedy
Crash
Master Chief
Geno

Wow, that was rough. I'm mostly satisfied with my roster, but the future of Smash sure is a bit scary isn't it?

I don't really see why you would cut Rosalina unless there's really a huge roster cut. I also highly disagree on Ike being cut. I also don't think Min Min would get cut tbh. I don't see the point of cutting 2 Link if one of your newcomer is another Link.

I also think that you're overestimating how much third party would stay. Steve and Sora I highly doubt would come back, at least in base game. Arguably Banjo would be fairly surprising too in base game. Not only that but you add 7 third party newcomers, which I think is mostly impossible.

 

[DarthEnderX]

"I think we’ve reached the limit, at least in terms of volume of content and fighters. Basically, if I were to have the opportunity to work on another Super Smash Bros. game, that means we would have to shrink the roster, but we need to think about whether fans would be pleased about that."

The question for us, obviously, is how much shrinking are we talking about here? The thing is you have to make room for newcomers, so even if we merely cut the roster by 10 you'd have to cut around 20 if you wanted a decent number of new challengers (which I'm sure the developers would prefer).

The Smash 6 tight 30!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Yeah, Ganondorf used to have a trick in Melee where he could cancel out of his Wizard’s foot for another jump and up special. It was probably unintended but he really needed that for decent recovery.

Making it so that Flame Choke no longer sends you into a helpless state would be good as would replacing his up B with the ability to float.

 

[Gengar84]

Here’s a question for anyone that has more knowledge of game balance and technical stats of Smash characters than me: If Ganondorf stayed exactly as he was but got a Peach like float jump, would he still be bad, overpowered, or would that put him on a decent power level?

 

[Wunderwaft]

Fishbunjin from Slap City is my go-to example on how to make a good and balanced heavyweight fighter, he had a combination of safe combo starters, big boy hitboxes, and amazing mobility. A heavyweight being fast isn't a sacrilege in the name of balance, just look at Bowser for an example of a heavyweight in Smash who has good mobility yet isn't breaking down tournaments like how the top tiers are doing.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Here’s a question for anyone that has more knowledge of game balance and technical stats of Smash characters than me: If Ganondorf stayed exactly as he was but got a Peach like float jump, would he still be bad, overpowered, or would that put him on a decent power level?

I can't say for sure if it'd truly make him good but I do think it would be a straight up buff without really putting him into overpowered territory. Ganondorf would definetly enjoy being able to throw out aerials more quickly and safely, in terms of both offense and defense. He'll also take any buff to his recovery he can get.

That said his kit isn't really as primed for combos as Peach's is, so you probably wouldn't be seeing him pull off the same rediculous 70% combos as Peach does with her turnips and nairs. I think he'd mostly make up for this with his big, oppressive aerial hitboxes that keep you locked down. So in a sense I think it'd be used well to compliment the way he already kind of plays.

All that said, there's only one thing I don't like about Float on Ganondorf, and that's that it would make him into a somewhat technical character. That kind of goes against what makes Ganondorf so popular - he might not be very good competitively but he is very easy to pick up and play. The technical aspects of float might scare some players away. But maybe I'm just underestimating Ganon players because I was always too lazy to learn Peach.

 

[Aligo]

I mean there's more creative ways to buff a powerhouse then just speed or mobility, and that's to give them a way to circumvent their poor mobility.

Look at Incineroar. He's not the absolute best but he still made a splash in the competitive scene thanks to revenge. It doesn't outright solve his poor disadvantage or projectile weakness but it does seriously lesson them by forcing the opposing player to think more carefully about spamming attacks, and give him some serious comeback potential when he does get past your wall of projectiles or rediculous juggle game.

Pyra's way of circumventing her speed is to be able to switch freely with Mythra, but I think she's suffering a bit from Charizard syndrome where her strengths beyond just raw kill power are being overlooked because everyone gets tunnel vision when your flashiest move kills at 60.
I mean tbf Mythra does has much faster smash attacks and lightning buster, while Inkling's smash attacks are notriously not super great without a roller bury.

I don't really disagree that she'd struggle with Inkling syndrome but she'd still probably be better at killing then like...Squirtle and probably Duck Hunt.

Do remember that mythras high fall speed and poor recovery options (heck photon edge may be one of the worst side specials in the game, it makes jolt haymaker and it's not resetting look good) make her offstage offence very limited, and her smash attacks are the weakest in the game (mega man does have a slightly weaker side smash, but that is a projectile and has better scaling when charged). Hitting a charged lightning buster KOs at around 100 at ledge, provided the opponent has gone to sleep.

Pyra is more for corner pressure, juggling, ledge trapping and edgeguarding than raw kill power. Many moves like bair kill very late despite their slow speed due to bad angles and low knockback scaling. The flashy moves are rather niche, not volcano kick bad but pretty bad.

Incineroar has incredible specials and normals, along with a above average recovery,to compensate for being very slow.

I think if they want to improve heavies without changing the archetype too much, they should be given a passive projectile resistance, like maybe only taking 60% damage and reduced hitstun from them.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The way I envision Ganondorf floating, based off how he float in Ocarina of Time, is that you just press Up B and you're able to float in any direction you want for some seconds and thus would be more easier for casual players than Peach's Float.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I can see the first two, but why ice climbers?

Looking at the reactions on The Everyone Is Here video, people were really happy to see them back. It's safe to say they've truly grown on the Smash fanbase over the years.

I hope Jin Kazama comes to the next Super Smash Bros. game, he could act as an echo of his father.

Jin fights very different from Kazuya, so he wouldn't be an echo.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think if they want to improve heavies without changing the archetype too much, they should be given a passive projectile resistance, like maybe only taking 60% damage and reduced hitstun from them.

I mean what a lot of fighting games do is give heavies dedicated moves to play around projectiles. The classic example being Zangief's double lariat. Tbh I think that's more interesting and intuitive then some passive buff, especially when heavies are supposed to be weak to projectile users.

Bowser, DK and Charizard don't need it as much because they're speedy. Although DK really struggles in other areas, Bowser and Zard are actually fairly good. Still projectile weak but not to the point where it's totally lopsided. I see this three almost as rushdown/heavy hybrids.

I think we already talked about Incin and revenge.

Dedede and King K.Rool have....really lousy relfectors. DDD's is probably one of the worst at "reflecting" in the game. But tbh these heavies are some of the ones I know the least about. And I guess K.Rool's armor helps.

And Ganondorf's wizard kick is supposed to be an anti-projectile move with its high priority, I think. But while the move has its strengths it's far from enough. But Ganondorf suffers from having a rushdown moveset slapped haphazardly onto a heavy and really needs an overhaul anyway.


Anyway uh "Heavies are all bad" is just rushdown propaganda from people who hate zoners and is liable get you side-b'd off the edge by LeoN's Bowser. /s

 

[Sucumbio]

Pyra is absolutely devastating in late percents and with her up-b and side-b especially worrisome when you're within ko percentage which is not even that high depending on the stage... Mythra is great at racking quick damage in neutral and then switch to pyra for the ko which btw is usually a stray u-air or footstool combo so not sure where the idea came that she's lacks ko potential for stray hits since it's usually that which leads to a winning setup... I'd keep them paired tho. They really do compliment each other, and with the perfection of transformation techniques her recovery isn't even bottom 20.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

that's more interesting and intuitive then some passive buff, especially when heavies are supposed to be weak to projectile users.

By that logic, zoners are supposed to be weak at close range yet a lot of Smash zoners aren't. ROB has one of the best down tilts in the game and Min Min has one of the best Up Smashes in the game.

And Ganondorf's wizard kick is supposed to be an anti-projectile move with its high priority, I think. But while the move has its strengths it's far from enough.

The key is giving his Down B projectile invincibility frames to give him a better chance against projectiles.

 

[fogbadge]

I wonder what it’s like universe where they’re talking about reworking Rex

 

[Perkilator]

The way I envision Ganondorf floating is something closer to Peach and Daisy’s float.

 

[ZephyrZ]

By that logic, zoners are supposed to be weak at close range yet a lot of Smash zoners aren't. ROB has one of the best down tilts in the game and Min Min has one of the best Up Smashes in the game.

Well I don't think all zoners should be total sitting ducks at close range and should have decent get off me options, just like how I think heavies should have some ways around zoners, but some zoners are pretty overtuned.

And Min Min in particular has some real DLC priviledge going for her.

 

[Gengar84]

I wonder if a gimmick like Exdeath in Dissidia would work in Smash. He was unable to run but he could teleport and had super armor against all projectiles under a certain range. That might work well for someone like the Black Knight.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I don't want any indie characters in Smash. They are indie because they are not popular because they are indie. Smash is for video game all stars and not for table scrap meme lords.

 

[fogbadge]

I wonder if a gimmick like Exdeath in Dissidia would work in Smash. He was unable to run but he could teleport and had super armor against all projectiles under a certain range. That might work well for someone like the Black Knight.

no thanks. that gimmick drove me round the bend

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I have to disagree with the notion of no indie fighters, because indie games in general can often have very original and interesting concepts to them that in my estimation make them just as worthy for Smash for what they can bring to the table.

A Hades or a Knight from Hollow Knight have some really cool aspects to them; heck I'd like the King Knight from Shovel Knight just for his potential moveset and recovery options alone.