Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[True Blue Warrior]

This. I never understood a certain section of fans who believe just by getting a new director, all their wants and wishes will magically come into place and that Old Sakurai is put in his place. I'm not saying Sakurai is infallible and he physically can't work on Smash forever but a finding a new director isn't easy or a quick fix as fan make it out to be.

It is also important to note that Sakurai has been willing to change his mind on something because of strong fan demand as seen with Ridley. This is why I believe Bandana Dee can still end up playable even if Sakurai has his own preferences in terms of Kirby content. And considering Forgotten Land is the best-selling Kirby game now, I’d be surprised if we don’t get more non-ported content from modern Kirby games in the next title.

There is a reason Nintendo at first was just going to port Melee on Wii instead if Sakurai and Sakurai does make remark on how tiresome it can be. If there is a successor, I hope it's someone handpicked by Sakurai himself. Maybe someone like Shinya Kumazaki.

Make sense, Sakurai is a well respected industry veteran.

Like the other said, I highly disagree. I say that Smash 6 could benefit if Indie reps got a bigger focus. Since the Wii U days, Nintendo has maintained a strong relationships with the Indie Scene. They were basically the backbone for the Wii-U and early 2017 Switch until MK8D hit the selves. Picks like Shovel Knight, Sans, Quote, Shantae, Reimu etc would be nice to see.

Any argument that indie characters aren’t iconic enough to get in ended up meaningless the moment Bayonetta was a newcomer in Smash 4. There is plenty of indie characters as iconic, if not more than Bayo was back then.

I imagine that Sakurai would remain on as an advisory role even if someone else took over as director.

That would make sense.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think premium Miis and ATs is a good sweet spot for indie characters.

 

[Gengar84]

I think premium Miis and ATs is a good sweet spot for indie characters.

As a general rule, I pretty much agree. Although if there’s a ton of fan support for any particular indie character, I don’t think the fact that they are indie should disqualify them.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I can't disagree with that. Deluxe Mii Costumes did wonders in terms of representation especially for Sans and Cuphead. It is easy to say that Mii will be a lock for Smash 6 for this reason unless Nintendo utters away Mii completely which i really hope they do not do.

 

[RodNutTakin]

If Nintendo is smart, they'd have that souped-up Mii creator from their Miitopia re-release become the standard maker application for the next system.
Which is why it's unlikely to happen.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If Nintendo is smart, they'd have that souped-up Mii creator from their Miitopia re-release become the standard maker application for the next system.
Which is why it's unlikely to happen.

The mii maker in Miitopia one hell of a character creator.

Imagin having that built into smash for the mii fighters.

 

[Gengar84]

I haven’t tried the Miitopia creator but I’m pretty underwhelmed with the general Mii creator and the one in Smash. I’d love if we ever got something on par with WWE games or Soul Calibur but I don’t expect that. I’d love to look like the actual character I’m trying to make instead of a Mii in cosplay. I know they’re popular overall so I can live with it. A more robust character creator would be really tough with Smash’s widely varied body types.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The one in Miitopia lets you accurately recreate the faces of certain characters near perfectly if you have enough artistic talent.

 

[Gengar84]

The one in Miitopia lets you accurately recreate the faces of certain characters near perfectly if you have enough artistic talent.

Wow that is a lot better. Unfortunate they still have the Mii bodies but that’s a big improvement.

 

[fogbadge]

The one in Miitopia lets you accurately recreate the faces of certain characters near perfectly if you have enough artistic talent.

you mean patience?

 

[Gengar84]

you mean patience?

You probably need a bit of both.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I know this is going to be a controversial statement, but I can easily see them just keeping the current Smash Ganondorf and adding in Demon King Ganondorf as a new character.

I think it is easy for this site to end up as an echo chamber. If I had a dollar every time someone demanded that Ganondorf got a hard rework, I would have enough money to buy Smashboards itself. It is no secret that this site in particular has beef with the current Ganondorf moveset. This is not unwarranted, despite the changes that have been made to him. Ganon sells the fantasy of pure power and they have pushed him into something that more resembles the Ganondorf we all know and love.

And yet, its easy to dismiss that Ganondorf is insanely popular among casual fans. When Smash Ultimate first came out, Ganondorf was the single most popular character online. Not at Elite Smash, but at lower mmr brackets he was king. There is this causal fascination with that pure power motif, an easy to learn bruiser that has crushing power but nothing else. Even when Ganondorf is bad, there is this mythos around him for casual and competitive play. In casual play, he is the crushing tank that will do well in free for alls (depending on the stage) but suffer in a one v one. In competitive play, he punishes you for disrespecting his power while also preying on your fear. It might be a hard pill to swallow, but a lot of people really like the existing Ganondorf moveset.

Is the current Ganondorf moveset a relic of compromise? Sure, it was a last minute rushjob to get a fan favorite character into Melee. Is it canonically accurate to Ganondorf? Not really. While it does sell the idea of Ganondorf being all about crushing power, Falcondorf doesn't really represent Ganon/Ganondorf much at all. I get those criticisms. But I think people kind of let their own biases get in the way of things. If I had the choice during Melee between a Falcondorf and a regular Ganondorf, I would have chosen the latter in a heartbeat. I would like a canonical Ganon, it is one of my most wanted characters/concepts to happen. But I think it's also important to understand that while plenty of folks want that, plenty of folks also love Ganon as is.

I think that's why they have made compromises when changing him up. Giving him a unique F Tilt and Flame Choke in Brawl that come straight out of Twilight Princess was a good start. His new Smash attacks in Ultimate help push this compromise further. There is clearly some attachment on the development team as well as the fandom at large to the Falcondorf moveset, warts and all. I know plenty of folks would want to wash away Falcondorf as one of Smash's original sins, but I think that does a disservice to the far larger amount of people who like Falcondorf.

That brings us to Demon King Ganondorf, hot off the presses from Tears of the Kingdom. We now have a shiny new Ganondorf design central to the plot of a new Zelda game that we can use as a mold to give the fans a new Ganondorf moveset while not abandoning Falcondorf entirely. It is not like having multiple Triforce users is out of the question: we have had at least two links since Melee and have had Zelda and Sheik separate for two games now. I know that the idea of another Triforce user "cutting the line" of other Zelda picks will run sour for some fans. Would I like characters like Impa, Midna, and Skull Kid to rise to the occasion and join the roster? Absolutely. But after five Zelda games where Triforce users are all we have for Zelda newcomers, I feel kind of jaded on their chances, especially when you can just add a new Ganondorf to kill two birds with one stone.

I feel like it is just a possibility that people should at least keep in mind. There are a couple things like that such as Pauline being our Mario rep or Dixie Kong as an echo fighter that people should at least have this understanding that it is a realistic outcome, despite what people want. Would people prefer Captain Toad or Waluigi as our two Mario reps? Maybe, but I think people should at least prepare themselves mentally for Pauline being there. Would Dixie fans be happier if she was a unique character? Sure, but there also is a real possibility that we could get her as an echo fighter. Similarly, I could see us getting just a new Ganondorf as our Zelda newcomer, even if that means keeping Falcondorf and us not getting another Zelda newcomer.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

When Smash Ultimate first came out, Ganondorf was the single most popular character online.

I’m pretty sure that was Cloud actually.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I’m pretty sure that was Cloud actually.

Sakurai talks Smash Bros. Ultimate's online mode - victory rates, character usage, more

After a week off, Masahiro Sakurai published his latest column in Famitsu this week. His piece was again dedicated entirely to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, and this one was particularly interesting. Sakurai managed to receive permission from Nintendo in sharing some data about online play in...

nintendoeverything.com

Ganon has the edge in elite even with a bad wr. Mixed up the two initially, point stands he’s popular.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

He's only 52 he's got a least one if not 2 more Smash games in him though I think he's probably going to get way more help this next game since his biggest issue previously was having to do so many parts of the game. He even worked on the trailers and marketing and just everything every little detail, but it just shows HE didn't trust anyone to do those things justice.

I could see him being back for one last game, but I think 2 is wishful thinking with game development cycle becoming longer with each generation, and with games having usually longer post launch support too. By the time Smash 7 will starts development he's going to be 60+.

If any new director oversees Smash you’ll see a wave of elitists swearing they’ll never ever play Smash again.

Like cmon it can’t be that bad if it happens.

Yeah honestly I never really understand the idea that Sakurai is the only one that can do Smash. Don't get me wrong, he's obviously very good at it, but plenty of big video game franchise had director changes and are doing just fine. Even if you're looking just at Nintendo franchise, both Miyamoto and Tezuka had much smaller roles in the Zelda franchise since Majora's mask and it's still very good. Same with Kirby, another Sakurai franchise.

 

[Momotsuki]

Are they a video game character? Could they be fun to play? If the answer to both questions is "yes" then the character is at the very least worth considering. I don't really care if the character is indie or "niche" if what they're bringing to the table is fun and interesting.

Sure, Smash is a "crossover" or whatever but it's also a video game. I want fun things in the video games I play, even and especially at the expense of some hyper-curated corporate cast of character choices. So many fan rosters I see are just... hollow. Soulless. They make too much sense, in a bad way. They look as though no fun was had in coming up with them.

Additionally, as mentioned above, Ganondorf is quite adored by the people who play the character. Was him being a Captain Falcon clone in the first place a mistake? Probably, but it's a mistake that has proven, put simply, fun. It's one of the serendipitous imperfections that makes Smash what it is to me, personally. I like it largely precisely for how not-Nintendo it feels despite being comprised mostly of Nintendo's own characters.

While such things are obviously not up to me, Smash being outsourced to the guy and team that actually know how to make something fun and not overpolished, overcurated, soulless crap has, in my opinion, been a blessing. There are almost certainly other directors that could potentially do Smash justice, but I'd really hate to see it handed to one of Nintendo's in-house studios. Such studios are capable of making good games - they do and they have - but I don't really trust them to make a Smash game that isn't painfully hollow in personality and ideas, and squeaky-clean to a fault.

 

[Gengar84]

Are they a video game character? Could they be fun to play? If the answer to both questions is "yes" then the character is at the very least worth considering. I don't really care if the character is indie or "niche" if what they're bringing to the table is fun and interesting.

Sure, Smash is a "crossover" or whatever but it's also a video game. I want fun things in the video games I play, even and especially at the expense of some hyper-curated corporate cast of character choices. So many fan rosters I see are just... hollow. Soulless. They make too much sense, in a bad way.

Yup. I’ll go one step further because I’m totally fine with characters originating from outside gaming. I’m not suggesting that’s the smartest or most likely path but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t be excited for someone like Raphael, Venom, The Undertaker, Predator, or Edward Elric. Again, I don’t really expect that to happen any time soon but I’m not really opposed to the idea, especially for characters that had a strong legacy in video games.

 

[Momotsuki]

Yup. I’ll go one step further because I’m totally fine with characters originating from outside gaming. I’m not suggesting that’s the smartest or most likely path but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t be excited for someone like Raphael, Venom, The Undertaker, Predator, or Edward Elric. Again, I don’t really expect that to happen any time soon but I’m not really opposed to the idea, especially for characters that had a strong legacy in video games.

You could argue it's a slippery slope but there are definitely gray-area characters I'd be on board with in that regard, i.e. Miku. I obviously don't expect anything like that though and while I'm personally fine with some ideas I completely understand not being so.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

That brings us to Demon King Ganondorf, hot off the presses from Tears of the Kingdom. We now have a shiny new Ganondorf design central to the plot of a new Zelda game that we can use as a mold to give the fans a new Ganondorf moveset while not abandoning Falcondorf entirely. It is not like having multiple Triforce users is out of the question: we have had at least two links since Melee and have had Zelda and Sheik separate for two games now. I know that the idea of another Triforce user "cutting the line" of other Zelda picks will run sour for some fans. Would I like characters like Impa, Midna, and Skull Kid to rise to the occasion and join the roster? Absolutely. But after five Zelda games where Triforce users are all we have for Zelda newcomers, I feel kind of jaded on their chances, especially when you can just add a new Ganondorf to kill two birds with one stone.

I think you're making some very good points about not changing Ganondorf current moveset, but I don't 100% agree about having a new Ganondorf as a newcomer. You compare having 2 Ganondorf to the fact that we have 2 or even 3 Link in past Smash, but the major difference is that the Links are clones, so they take much less development time. At the time Young Link (and other Melee clones) were added after the main roster were completed, and Sakurai said that even cutting all 6 Melee clones would have not been enough to make another unique fighters. Sheik is indeed not a clone (I mean, not in the fighting game sense), but she's visually very different from Zelda to the point that if it wasn't for the transformation gimmick, a non-Zelda fans wouldn't even realised that they're both technically the same character. At the end of the day TOTK Ganon is still Ganon. He have a cool design, but he still looks like Ganon. And with the newcomers count potentially being lower because they have much more veterans to bring back, I'm not sure if another Ganon would seriously be high priority.

 

[Gengar84]

I think you're making some very good points about not changing Ganondorf current moveset, but I don't 100% agree about having a new Ganondorf as a newcomer. You compare having 2 Ganondorf to the fact that we have 2 or even 3 Link in past Smash, but the major difference is that the Links are clones, so they take much less development time. At the time Young Link (and other Melee clones) were added after the main roster were completed, and Sakurai said that even cutting all 6 Melee clones would have not been enough to make another unique fighters. Sheik is indeed not a clone (I mean, not in the fighting game sense), but she's visually very different from Zelda to the point that if it wasn't for the transformation gimmick, a non-Zelda fans wouldn't even realised that they're both technically the same character. At the end of the day TOTK Ganon is still Ganon. He have a cool design, but he still looks like Ganon. And with the newcomers count potentially being lower because they have much more veterans to bring back, I'm not sure if another Ganon would seriously be high priority.

Another comparison is Samus and Zero Suit Samus. The two are the same person but have completely different aesthetics and gameplay.

 

[SPEN18]

Once again the entire argument for keeping Falcondorf just boils down to "but people like them."

The closest things to substance I see are

(1) Falcondorf mechanically filling a gameplay niche, that of a powerful-feeling, easy-to-learn bruiser.
--> But this is hardly a role that is unique to him, and not something that a new, more faithful Ganondorf set or even another character couldn't do just as well or better.

and (2) data supporting the sense that Falcondorf is one of the more popular vets to play.
--> You can't conclude from the data that a new Ganondorf set wouldn't also be just as high or even higher in usage. And you can't conclude from the data whether people are playing Ganondorf for his moveset or simply because he's Ganondorf and they like Ganondorf (of course, it's a combination of both but we don't know what combination). Regardless, maybe it supports that plenty of people like the current Falcondorf set, but that was never disputed. The issue with Falcondorf was never popularity of the playstyle but rather faithfulness to the source, without which Smash wouldn't be Smash anymore.

 

[Soy_Man]

Once again the entire argument for keeping Falcondorf just boils down to "but people like them."

My response to those people is simply that you can't make everyone happy. And Smash never has, which is fine. You can't make a new instalment to a series without your creative decisions ruffling someone's feathers. So you might as well take some creative risks. By making Ganondorf a Kazuya clone instead.

 

[Gengar84]

I still miss how Bowser played in Melee. I loved his forward special bite combo, his run, and his head smash. His current set doesn’t really capture that intensity though he is better competitively. His model could also be a lot bigger than it is now because he hunched over so much for his stance. That’s one reason I think Dry Bowser could be a fun idea to adopt Bowser’s old moveset.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Ganondorf is popular to play as because he is a heavy hitting bruiser, not because he is a Captain Falcon derivative. Keeping that core gameplay style whilst getting rid of a lot of clone feel isn’t too difficult as long as there are smart changes for certain moves and the most effective moves to change of without comprising said gameplay style are his special moves (Flame Choke can stay as it is fitting to stay, being very distinct from Raptor Boost, sourced from Twilight Princess and is iconic to Smash Ganondorf. Just make it so that it no longer sends Ganondorf into a helpless state)

Warlock Punch - it’s just Falcon Punch but . In addition it is redundant with Ganondorf’s Side Smash existing as a far more iconically memorable (Doriyah!) and useful powerhouse move. Idea: replace it with a cape reflector based off his Ocarina of Time boss fight, or at the very least give him this ability with a quick tap of the B button. Not only do we get a Neutral B more distinct from Falcon’s and with stronger canon ties, but it also helps against projectiles, something Ganondorf needs.

Dark Dive - It’s just a variation of Falcon Dive, but Captain Falcon has the excuse that he really didn’t have much material to work with so he gets a free pass for having a made-up Up B. Idea: give him the ability to float based off his Ocarina of Time boss fight.

Wizard Kick - one of the most stupid looking moves in his arsenal but it is a very important burst option so the concept needs to stay in some way. Idea: it is replaced with a new burst option where he rushes forward with a strong diagonal upward sword slash.

And with the newcomers count potentially being lower because they have much more veterans to bring back,

I doubt the newcomer roster for the next title will be low. The only reason why there were few non-Echo newcomers in the base game was because Everyone is Here was the main priority. With that factor no longer likely being relevant, I see no reason why a large number of non-Echo newcomers won’t be a priority even if it means more cuts than Brawl and Smash 4 had.

 

[Sucumbio]

I liked Ganondorf in brawl so much that I've continued to use him since even with his QoL changes. But to be honest, him being low tier this entire time from a competitive standpoint has become a bit irritating. I don't see why heavies in general can't seem to be more than mid tier, with maybe Snake being the exception? I forget if he's considered a heavy...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Are they a video game character? Could they be fun to play? If the answer to both questions is "yes" then the character is at the very least worth considering. I don't really care if the character is indie or "niche" if what they're bringing to the table is fun and interesting.

Sure, Smash is a "crossover" or whatever but it's also a video game. I want fun things in the video games I play, even and especially at the expense of some hyper-curated corporate cast of character choices. So many fan rosters I see are just... hollow. Soulless. They make too much sense, in a bad way. They look as though no fun was had in coming up with them.

Additionally, as mentioned above, Ganondorf is quite adored by the people who play the character. Was him being a Captain Falcon clone in the first place a mistake? Probably, but it's a mistake that has proven, put simply, fun. It's one of the serendipitous imperfections that makes Smash what it is to me, personally. I like it largely precisely for how not-Nintendo it feels despite being comprised mostly of Nintendo's own characters.

While such things are obviously not up to me, Smash being outsourced to the guy and team that actually know how to make something fun and not overpolished, overcurated, soulless crap has, in my opinion, been a blessing. There are almost certainly other directors that could potentially do Smash justice, but I'd really hate to see it handed to one of Nintendo's in-house studios. Such studios are capable of making good games - they do and they have - but I don't really trust them to make a Smash game that isn't painfully hollow in personality and ideas, and squeaky-clean to a fault.

I'm tempted to use this as an excuse to talk about My Friendly Neighborhood, a game that came out literally today and I have a feeling is going to become part of my list of obsessions...

If anybody's curious, it's basically "Resident Evil, but it's Sesame Street".

 

[Gengar84]

I'm tempted to use this as an excuse to talk about My Friendly Neighborhood, a game that came out literally today and I have a feeling is going to become part of my list of obsessions...

If anybody's curious, it's basically "Resident Evil, but it's Sesame Street".

I can’t say I’ve heard of that but the description reminds me of those “Don’t Hug Me I’m Scared” videos.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I can’t say I’ve heard of that but the description reminds me of those “Don’t Hug Me I’m Scared” videos.

Well from the playthrough I'm watching, it's not THAT kind of horror. Heck, if anything there's a bit of a humorous aspect to it: when you beat the puppet enemies, they get sent flying like ragdolls, and you can use tape to stop them from respawning once you leave the room, meaning that once you reenter the room after taping them up, they're just... lying on the ground, taped up, rambling whatever nonsense they can think of.

Wait, now I'm the one rambling, aren't I?

 

[TheLamerGamer]

I liked Ganondorf in brawl so much that I've continued to use him since even with his QoL changes. But to be honest, him being low tier this entire time from a competitive standpoint has become a bit irritating. I don't see why heavies in general can't seem to be more than mid tier, with maybe Snake being the exception? I forget if he's considered a heavy...

I think because casual players struggle with them, so they can't be buffed in case they become too hard for a lot of the audience. That's why K. Rool was nerfed so heavily early on. He wasn't particularly good, but casual players complained because they didn't know how to beat him.

Also, you can tell you're nearing a console launch when horrible fake leaks start showing up.

Rumor: Nintendo Switch 2 may have leaked but take it with a grain of salt

Announcement might be this year with a Q1 2024 release pic.twitter.com/cOmfa52tNU

— Chito | Content Creator (@ChitoGamingLive) July 18, 2023

 

[MasterCheef]

Also, you can tell you're nearing a console launch when horrible fake leaks start showing up.

Rumor: Nintendo Switch 2 may have leaked but take it with a grain of salt

Announcement might be this year with a Q1 2024 release pic.twitter.com/cOmfa52tNU

— Chito | Content Creator (@ChitoGamingLive) July 18, 2023

it looks like something Nintendo , would put it out tho honestly.

Personally i would like to see better controllers.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The only thing I would change about the next Switch would be to add an additional separation between the screen and the main processor of the system(so, 4 parts instead of the current 3). That way, you could have the system docked to the TV, while still having the joycons AND the screen in your hand. Which would allow Nintento to do dual screen again.

 

[fogbadge]

I think because casual players struggle with them, so they can't be buffed in case they become too hard for a lot of the audience. That's why K. Rool was nerfed so heavily early on. He wasn't particularly good, but casual players complained because they didn't know how to beat him.

Also, you can tell you're nearing a console launch when horrible fake leaks start showing up.

Rumor: Nintendo Switch 2 may have leaked but take it with a grain of salt

Announcement might be this year with a Q1 2024 release pic.twitter.com/cOmfa52tNU

— Chito | Content Creator (@ChitoGamingLive) July 18, 2023

i wasn't aware the fake leaks had stopped

 

[Gengar84]

The only thing I would change about the next Switch would be to add an additional separation between the screen and the main processor of the system(so, 4 parts instead of the current 3). That way, you could have the system docked to the TV, while still having the joycons AND the screen in your hand. Which would allow Nintento to do dual screen again.

I just want controllers that actually work properly. I went through 4 pro controllers that all had drift so I ended up just buying an adapter so I could use my PS4 controllers. It’s a shame because the Switch pro controller was so comfortable.

 

[Mamboo07]

the Switch pro controller was so comfortable.

I use that due to my blue joycon having drift issues and red joycon being broken due to the control stick broken off.

 

[fogbadge]

I just want controllers that actually work properly. I went through 4 pro controllers that all had drift so I ended up just buying an adapter so I could use my PS4 controllers. It’s a shame because the Switch pro controller was so comfortable.

do they not fix drift for free where you are?

 

[Gengar84]

do they not fix drift for free where you are?

They might have but I tried fixing them myself watching a tutorial on YouTube. Not sure if they would have still taken them after I had to take it apart to try and fix it. The fix worked for about a week until they started drifting again. I just gave up at that point and decided I’d just use my PS3 controllers instead. The controller ports on the console itself sometimes stop working too so I have to unplug the system and reboot it to get them working again. It’s a shame because Nintendo was usually pretty reliable for their hardware dueability.

 

[fogbadge]

They might have but I tried fixing them myself watching a tutorial on YouTube. Not sure if they would have still taken them after I had to take it apart to try and fix it. The fix worked for about a week until they started drifting again. I just gave up at that point and decided I’d just use my PS3 controllers instead. The controller ports on the console itself sometimes stop working too so I have to unplug the system and reboot it to get them working again. It’s a shame because Nintendo was usually pretty reliable for their hardware dueability.

I think this sort of thing is best left to the professionals

but you are right about durability, the number of times my older handhelds hit the floor and still worked

 

[SneakyLink]

Quick industry update: the MS/ABK deal deadline is now October 18.

The ride truly never ends!

 

[chocolatejr9]

Quick industry update: the MS/ABK deal deadline is now October 18.

The ride truly never ends!

Does that one statement from the CMA that negotiations were going "surprisingly well" (or whatever it was they said) still apply?

 

[SneakyLink]

Does that one statement from the CMA that negotiations were going "surprisingly well" (or whatever it was they said) still apply?

CMA deadline is August 29 so I assume things will end before then.

Think of it like the Fighters Pass 2 deadline. The initial deadline was December 31, but they released Sora October 18, well ahead of the deadline.

I know Dec 31 is a placeholder date, but the overall point still stands.