A new creation thread about remaking the entire Smash series just sprung up if anyone's interested.
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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter NonSpecificGuy
- Start date
the world ends with you, bravely, off the top of my head
WeirdChillFever
Smash Hero
Top 10, why not? Haven’t thought about this in a while so this is most likely just a list of ten characters that just happened to come to mind and that are at least decently likely rather than particularly my set-in-stone top 10
1. Cap’n Cuttlefish
2. Impa (BoTW/ToTK)
3. Off the Hook
4. Toadette
5. Dixie Kong
6. Professor Layton
7. Waluigi
8. Zagreus
9. Master Kohga
10. Anna
EDIT: Forgot about Professor Layton, man’s the dream. Viridi used to be in that spot but I can get most of my fanfiction-based satisfaction from having her in Palutena’s Guidance as well, doesn’t need to be playable for that.
1. Cap’n Cuttlefish
2. Impa (BoTW/ToTK)
3. Off the Hook
4. Toadette
5. Dixie Kong
6. Professor Layton
7. Waluigi
8. Zagreus
9. Master Kohga
10. Anna
EDIT: Forgot about Professor Layton, man’s the dream. Viridi used to be in that spot but I can get most of my fanfiction-based satisfaction from having her in Palutena’s Guidance as well, doesn’t need to be playable for that.
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DynamicSmasher
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2015
- Messages
- 50
It's more of an indie than a regular third party, but Shantae was what jumped to mind for me. Started on the Gameboy Colour way back when and has been consistently on Nintendo since. WayForward even got contracted for the Advance Wars remake, so that might count for something.
No More Heroes has been firstly and foremostly a Nintendo franchise, Travis could be a pretty cool anime swordfighter, though his level of profanity would of course have to be toned down a great deal.
And it's not suuuper small, but Ace Attorney is a somewhat niche series of games which have (thus far) always released on Nintendo consoles first. My picks would be Phoenix and Apollo as his echo. Rynosuke could also work as an echo/alt. If they decide to have them be duo fighters like Phoenix was in Marvel vs Capom and Project X Zone you could have Phoenix+Maya, Apollo+Trucy and Ryunosuke+Susato.
dream1ng
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2016
- Messages
- 2,173
Sorry my reply took a bit. Was busy with real life.
I'm pretty indifferent on Geno. He gets in, that's cool. He doesn't, I'm fine with that too. It'd be nice for his fans after all this time, but personally I never walked away from SMRPG with the overwhelming yearning to get him in Smash.
You're not going to convince me being a spin-off doesn't hurt chances. So far we have... Dr. Mario. Who is a clone, and got in as padding.
You're not going to convince me being a one-off in a big, static series doesn't hurt chances. So far we have... uhhh.... alternate triforce forms?
You're not going to convince me being a minor character within a series doesn't hurt chances. So far we have, I guess, Piranha Plant, who is minor in significance of role, but not in visibility or attendance. He was chosen because he was very well known.
And being a third-party helps in certain regards, but hinders you in others.
These aren't rules. A character can get in who deviates from one or all of these things. But they are factors that hurt a character's odds, because they are the opposite of what Smash usually prioritizes. Not third-parties, but the others.
So it's mutual, I don't think your argument is strong either.
To be clear, these are raising what I believe to be valid counterpoints against Geno. It's not me arguing Geno won't get in. I think he's got a pretty decent shot. But characters with decent shots still usually have points against them as well. They just manage to overcome them. Sometimes.
And that makes no sense, as dormancy is legitimately something that fan demand has already proven it can overcome.
Second, calling me a detractor is ad hominem. It has nothing to do with the point I'm raising.
Third, I am being a detractor right now, because that's the point of the argument. I'm being devil's advocate, opposing the claim there are no arguments against Geno. Being a detractor doesn't inherently remove reason from your stance. You seem to be using it interchangeably with 'hater'.
But someone doesn't hate a character just because they raise a point against them. I don't hate Geno.
Your argument is now "they are eligible for Smash since they are video game characters" as a means to draw a parallel between them. Do you see how flawed that is? Eligibility and likelihood are completely different.
It's not a mainline title, it's not of any special commercial performance. It didn't even release in one of the major regions.
The average person doesn't know who Geno is. The average casual doesn't know who Geno is. The average gamer probably doesn't know who Geno is. The average online gamer may know who Geno is, but likely only because of Smash. Or, instead of Geno, how about Mallow? How recognizable would he be? Because if Geno is major, he would be major too. Is Mallow a major Mario character? Smithy is the antagonist, is he a major Mario character?
The average online gamer and the average gamer both know, or at least recognize, basically all the major Mario characters. It's Mario. The average casual probably knows most of them. The average person knows at least a few.
How about anybody in Europe who isn't aware of the Smash fanbase's favorite characters? Geno going to ring a lot of bells?
You don't know what a minor character is, series-wise. Being a major character in one game does not make him a major character in the series as a whole. He appears in less than half a percent of the series, and none of the biggest titles. This is Smash bubble behavior.
Let me ask you this. Is Parakarry a major Mario character? Is Plum a major Mario character? Is Wanda a major Mario character? They all have major roles in their respective games.
We interpret precedent and come to hopefully somewhat-educated predictions.
You clearly think mine are baseless, but your reasoning so far has been throwing precedent away because "the fanbase gets things wrong", and basically just asserting "this doesn't matter", "you don't know" and "you sound like you don't want Geno".
When the goal is just to validate these as counterpoints, not to say Geno won't get in, that's pretty weak reasoning.
And he's not Inkling, so of course they do.
And it's not like Sakurai goes into Smash and says "I'm allocating x amount of slots to fanbase picks!" but there are only going to be so many of them, they don't add that many characters on that basis. And it's the only way Geno is going to get in. So in effect, he does have to compete for one of those spots.
Most available 'spots' aren't allocated spots, and aren't "reserved" (for lack of a better word) for a certain type of character. But some are. Though it's also the case that certain types of characters can only get in as a certain type of inclusion.
Like, ROB wouldn't have gotten in as a normal inclusion. Ice Climbers wouldn't have gotten in as a normal inclusion. Incineroar wouldn't have gotten in as a normal inclusion. K. Rool wouldn't have gotten in unless Sakurai let fan demand account for a 'spot'.
You questioned how there'd be remaining arguments left. Here are some of them.
I'm pretty indifferent on Geno. He gets in, that's cool. He doesn't, I'm fine with that too. It'd be nice for his fans after all this time, but personally I never walked away from SMRPG with the overwhelming yearning to get him in Smash.
Well, these aren't rules. These are inhibitory factors, and the fact that some people think they either apply holistically or don't apply at all - aka "rules" is wrong. They are things that influence a character's odds for better or for worse.
You're not going to convince me being a spin-off doesn't hurt chances. So far we have... Dr. Mario. Who is a clone, and got in as padding.
You're not going to convince me being a one-off in a big, static series doesn't hurt chances. So far we have... uhhh.... alternate triforce forms?
You're not going to convince me being a minor character within a series doesn't hurt chances. So far we have, I guess, Piranha Plant, who is minor in significance of role, but not in visibility or attendance. He was chosen because he was very well known.
And being a third-party helps in certain regards, but hinders you in others.
These aren't rules. A character can get in who deviates from one or all of these things. But they are factors that hurt a character's odds, because they are the opposite of what Smash usually prioritizes. Not third-parties, but the others.
Not the main thing, though. Not the Geno getting in part.
I know you disagree, but your arguments have been either just telling me my argument is bad or providing individual characters who share one, maybe two of Geno's negatives and ignore the fact that a character's positives and negatives are cumulative, so saying how Duck Hunt is a one-off totally avoids a big chunk of who Geno is.
So it's mutual, I don't think your argument is strong either.
To be clear, these are raising what I believe to be valid counterpoints against Geno. It's not me arguing Geno won't get in. I think he's got a pretty decent shot. But characters with decent shots still usually have points against them as well. They just manage to overcome them. Sometimes.
There is no evidence Geno was considered for 4. You've been misinformed.
If that criteria doesn't matter, your entire reasoning for why Geno hasn't been included yet, if he has no negatives against him now, is that he was dormant.
And that makes no sense, as dormancy is legitimately something that fan demand has already proven it can overcome.
First of all, saying "fans get things wrong" is not a real counterargument. I could say "fans get things right" to invalidate it, and that would be immaterial as well. You know how many more times the fans have been right when they said a character wasn't going to get in than when they said one was?
Second, calling me a detractor is ad hominem. It has nothing to do with the point I'm raising.
Third, I am being a detractor right now, because that's the point of the argument. I'm being devil's advocate, opposing the claim there are no arguments against Geno. Being a detractor doesn't inherently remove reason from your stance. You seem to be using it interchangeably with 'hater'.
But someone doesn't hate a character just because they raise a point against them. I don't hate Geno.
It absolutely matters if you try to equate the characters.
Your argument is now "they are eligible for Smash since they are video game characters" as a means to draw a parallel between them. Do you see how flawed that is? Eligibility and likelihood are completely different.
There are over 200 Mario games to date. Geno is a prominent character in one.
It's not a mainline title, it's not of any special commercial performance. It didn't even release in one of the major regions.
The average person doesn't know who Geno is. The average casual doesn't know who Geno is. The average gamer probably doesn't know who Geno is. The average online gamer may know who Geno is, but likely only because of Smash. Or, instead of Geno, how about Mallow? How recognizable would he be? Because if Geno is major, he would be major too. Is Mallow a major Mario character? Smithy is the antagonist, is he a major Mario character?
The average online gamer and the average gamer both know, or at least recognize, basically all the major Mario characters. It's Mario. The average casual probably knows most of them. The average person knows at least a few.
How about anybody in Europe who isn't aware of the Smash fanbase's favorite characters? Geno going to ring a lot of bells?
You don't know what a minor character is, series-wise. Being a major character in one game does not make him a major character in the series as a whole. He appears in less than half a percent of the series, and none of the biggest titles. This is Smash bubble behavior.
Let me ask you this. Is Parakarry a major Mario character? Is Plum a major Mario character? Is Wanda a major Mario character? They all have major roles in their respective games.
Yes, that is the point. What did you think this discussion was about? It literally started by you agreeing there weren't any of the old arguments left.
By that reasoning we wouldn't be able to say when characters had a good shot either, because we didn't make the rules.
We interpret precedent and come to hopefully somewhat-educated predictions.
You clearly think mine are baseless, but your reasoning so far has been throwing precedent away because "the fanbase gets things wrong", and basically just asserting "this doesn't matter", "you don't know" and "you sound like you don't want Geno".
When the goal is just to validate these as counterpoints, not to say Geno won't get in, that's pretty weak reasoning.
We aren't debating whether Geno has a shot. We're debating if points against him exist.
And he's not Inkling, so of course they do.
There are spots. There's a spot for a Pokemon character. There's usually a spot for a surprise character. There are spots for series designated before the character is chosen.
And it's not like Sakurai goes into Smash and says "I'm allocating x amount of slots to fanbase picks!" but there are only going to be so many of them, they don't add that many characters on that basis. And it's the only way Geno is going to get in. So in effect, he does have to compete for one of those spots.
Yeah, the certain allocated spots that do exist are allocated during roster creation or DLC selection, not after that process.
Most available 'spots' aren't allocated spots, and aren't "reserved" (for lack of a better word) for a certain type of character. But some are. Though it's also the case that certain types of characters can only get in as a certain type of inclusion.
Like, ROB wouldn't have gotten in as a normal inclusion. Ice Climbers wouldn't have gotten in as a normal inclusion. Incineroar wouldn't have gotten in as a normal inclusion. K. Rool wouldn't have gotten in unless Sakurai let fan demand account for a 'spot'.
I agree. I guess that's a benefit, but I think more so it's probably the reason he has popularity in the first place. Kinda doubt he would if he was just a random party member from some old Square IP.
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WeirdChillFever
Smash Hero
As for Geno (It’s like we never left), it depends on how succesful and partially how fresh the Super Mario RPG remake is when a nebulous next Smash releases/is planned and his overwhelming popularity once again gives him a solid fighting chance, but regardless of this specific kind of popularity, he is absolutely a minor character and calling him anything else is an asinine take by someone whose mind has been warped to unrecognizable rubber by this torture device of a mental excercise called Smash speculation, to the point where any sense of semantics or scale has ceased to exist (no offense)
EDIT: So this was a bit of a harsh post to make, for which I apologize. Trying to communicate your exact thoughts through text can be difficult, and I shouldn’t have made fun of the honest way SonicMetaphor expresses his lack of offense. Truth is, Geno discourse is some of the most featured discussion on this site historically, and to see the same point regurgitated in an honest attempt to describe his chances made me jaded.
EDIT: So this was a bit of a harsh post to make, for which I apologize. Trying to communicate your exact thoughts through text can be difficult, and I shouldn’t have made fun of the honest way SonicMetaphor expresses his lack of offense. Truth is, Geno discourse is some of the most featured discussion on this site historically, and to see the same point regurgitated in an honest attempt to describe his chances made me jaded.
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I was wondering when you'd show up. (Not picking on you, by the way)
First off, about the Geno being considered for Smash Bros. 4 thing...
Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 3
Sakurai discusses stages and costumes in Smash for 3DS/ Wii U.
sourcegaming.info
Second, I did not say your arguments were baseless. I might have thought some of them were, but not significantly. I did know that some of, no no!...A lot of them had merit.
Also, I know what a minor character is. However, I was not talking about the series as a whole. Sure, Geno is no prominent and thus minor character in anything else Mario related, but I'd argue still, even if it means nothing, that Super Mario RPG is not part of the main Mario universe, and is not even owned by Nintendo. Therefore, as ridiculous as it may sound, the mainline games kinda don't or should not count.
At the same time, I know points against Geno do exist. I just thought some of them weren't strong for now. That said, I know and am aware that some, or even many if we go that far, of my points aren't probably strong, but whatever you think, I was not trying to make strong points. If I were trying to, I'd possibly look ignorant about Geno's points against him not existing and argue against those fully. Thing is, I am not ignorant on those, and I do not want to argue fully against them.
As for equating the characters part, I meant it does not matter on a bare minimum, there is a beyond the bare minimum that is probably went by beyond characters being just video game characters, and you should know what I mean that. Still, I don't think it is fair to put down characters relative to another just because they are that different. Different overall? That is fair, but to me, only to a certain extent. I do think that there are some similarities to be had between characters, if not complete.
As for the fan rules, in an attempt to avoid saying anything is possible, even though characters like Waluigi have not gotten in, I don't think they should be necessarily counted out, and while things may hurt their chances, you know those things can be balanced out by things they have going for them, like fan demand or a new remake they are in coming.
I am aware Waluigi is a character that has appeared in more games than Geno, but he does have things going for him, some that can he shared with Geno or any other character. I don't think it is safe to count them out or say they have less chance at the present moment, given how time is unpredictable, and we don't know exactly how likely or unlikely a character is either way. That is why I do not think those kinds of things are fair, and that was what I was trying to say, not me thinking you said Geno has no shot.
As for the fans getting things wrong part, what if those points against Geno don't prevent him from being in the game? He has not been playable yet, but being dormant and the lack of knowledge of who he is did not stop him from getting a Mii Costume (and a Spirit) in the games. Pretty impressive for a lesser known character, since nothing else Super Mario RPG related has gotten in Smash aside from the Mallow Spirit in Ultimate.
As for the game not being released in Europe, there are things like the internet and the re-release of the game on the Wii back then. (The Wii was pretty successful for a time. Say, mind if you can bring up sales for the Wii re-release in Europe, if there are any?, just curious.
Also, just because I said there are no spots, (mainly no spots, I was aware that there were some reservations as you said) doesn't mean I thought there was no competition for them, given how rosters can only be so big.
Look, we seem to be getting nowhere on this, so let us just leave it at this, okay?
P.S.: Sorry for sounding accusatory and acting as if you hated Geno and thinking that we weren't arguing something like if Geno has a shot. I did not mean to be like that towards you on those parts, and I should have thought it through more, my bad.
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Oracle Link
Smash Master
I guess ill do my top ten:
- Links Awekening Remake Link
- Octorok
- Yunobo
- Midna
- Skullkid
- Bandana Dee
- Magolor
- Morpho Knight
- Dark Matter Orb
- Porky
smashkirby
Smash Hero
Ngl, if Smash Ultimate had AT LEAST done THIS (given every character a true ending to their Classic Mode route)? I'd consider it worth replaying.
Other than that, it's just boring going through the same route of characters for each one. I would have much rather taken Melee's take on Classic, or even Brawl's.
Maybe we can have an “Arcade Mode” that works more like the Classic Mode from past games?
Hadokeyblade
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 10,819
Well considering i want Ace Attorney, Digimon and Super Robot Wars in Smash in some form then yes, i would like smaller third parties involved.
An HD2D stage sounds like it could be pretty fun as a gimmick
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smashkirby
Smash Hero
I'd like that, honestly. Especially after how Nintendo didn't really take advantage of the concept of Ultimate's Classic Mode.
Some believe that a Nintendo Cinematic Universe is not possible and this is because the Mario franchise for example seems quite cartoonish, while The Legend of Zelda has a more serious premise. But judging by the Adventure Modes of the Super Smash Bros series and especially The Subspace Emissary of Super Smash Bros. Brawl and the World of Light of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, I'd say it's not impossible since we saw Mario, Link, Kirby, Pikachu, Samus, Captain Falcon etc. to meet each other. So for me it is possible.
CapitaineCrash
Smash Champion
While I think it's fair to assume that Geno could have been considered for Smash 4, your article has no sources so it's hard to believe it. Sakurai's comments on Geno on Sourcegaming unused characters page was this: “When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests. He didn’t appear as a fighter, but I was able to achieve something kind of close to that as a Mii Costume.” With SourceGaming themselves commenting " Sakurai previously considered Geno for Brawl, where he says he wanted Geno in the game, so I feel like saying that Geno was at least momentarily considered for Smash 4 is fair."I was wondering when you'd show up. (Not picking on you, by the way)
First off, about the Geno being considered for Smash Bros. 4 thing...
Sakurai Considered Geno for Super Smash Bros. - Nintendojo
The Super Mario RPG star nearly made the cut!www.nintendojo.com
So again, there's no really official confirmation that he was considered, it's just SourceGaming thinking that he was probably considered because Sakurai commented on his popularity.
I mean, Mii costumes and spirits don't follow the same "rules" as playable characters. There's plenty of dormant characters who's roles is limited to Mii costumes and Spirits so this is nothing special really (especially considering that there's more than 1300 spirits in base game and more than 1500 with dlc, if anything it would have been more shocking if he wasn't a spirits.
Ah, I see. I could have sworn someone before said they heard Geno was considered as a character.
Anyway, I know the costumes and spirits don't follow the same rules, but still, many of those dormant characters have been wanted for Smash.
But what really matters more is that those franchises have had more games than Geno (what were said dormant franchises, by the way) has been in, and given the arguments of the guy I was arguing against, Geno is a minor character, possibly more than the other dormant characters, possibly. Either way, Geno was not even the main character in that game he appeared in, so with that, Geno does feel like a more special case compared to the others. I mean...
We could use a character like one who does not star in their own game which was a spin off and owned by another company, yada yada yada but was still very popular and (now) relevant (again), and how many characters that appeared as costumes and spirits in Smash Bros. have been in the same situation as Geno?
I was never arguing that if Geno had a shot, it had to do with being a costume, at all, just that his situation is more impressive.
EDIT: Not that I am trying to find a source, so, maybe you can debunk this too?
EDIT: This too...
Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 3
Sakurai discusses stages and costumes in Smash for 3DS/ Wii U.
sourcegaming.info
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dream1ng
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2016
- Messages
- 2,173
Yeah. That article links to the Sourcegaming video, the sourcegaming video invokes this interview:I was wondering when you'd show up. (Not picking on you, by the way)
First off, about the Geno being considered for Smash Bros. 4 thing...
Sakurai Considered Geno for Super Smash Bros. - Nintendojo
The Super Mario RPG star nearly made the cut!www.nintendojo.com
Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 3
Sakurai discusses stages and costumes in Smash for 3DS/ Wii U.
sourcegaming.info
You got trapped in a game of telephone, because your claim isn't accurate to what's in that article, what's in that article is not accurate to what was said in that video, and what's said in that video is not accurate to what the translation on the site says. And who knows how accurate that translation on the site is either, because Sourcegaming has taken liberties with their translations in the past, it's just that no one usually has the knowledge of Japanese to realize it's not completely faithful.
Thanks? I guess I missed where the merit was said to be among saying they were weak points and not strong arguments and such.
me said:
you said:
me said:
Did you just never make it to the end of the sentence or what? I pretty explicitly called Geno minor only in the context of the whole series, and major in the context of just his game a few times. If you're gonna quote me and reply he's not minor, you're quoting the part where the context is clearly series-wide.you said:
That is the opposite of how Smash works.
Also in your last post you were stressing how he was a Mario character, now you want to divorce SMRPG from the Mario series? Gotta pick a lane here...
...despite being like five posts into this, each, at this point. Alright.
You should know that clearly no one is saying Geno is ineligible, nor have they ever said that - at least since Square has been involved - which is basically all that bare minimum point proves, to my understanding.
It's not an attack on those characters, they're just not in the same situation. You can't only focus on similarities if you want the comparison to hold weight, because that's not the full picture.
I could say why wouldn't we get Kratos if we got another M-rated character like Joker? But that's omitting some pretty important stuff.
Yes. I never did try to dispute the positive. I do think Geno has a good shot, and I think Waluigi has an even better shot.
Raising their negatives to prove they exist doesn't automatically mean I don't think they'll make it. I'm still slightly unsure if you grasp what my position was.
And you do get that those things aren't "fan rules", right? It's fan observation of a factor that works against, but doesn't automatically preclude, character inclusion. Like, you can look at any series and see the spin-off stuff does not get much attention compared to the mainline stuff. It's a valid factor until Smash fundamentally changes its series distribution.
And also, you were putting a lot of weight on the dormancy factor being gone now. Which makes sense, being active does bolster Geno, but how would being a spin-off be a fan rule but being dormant not be a fan rule? I mean, neither is a "fan rule", both have an impact, but we don't have any spin-off characters other than a clone, while we already have several characters who were plucked from dormancy due to popularity.
By your logic, so much as it is, dormancy should've been disproven as a factor a long time ago, not just when the remake got revealed. Of course it is still a factor, but by your reasoning, it shouldn't have been.
But the fact you still considered dormancy meaningful despite being previously proven non-fatal is exactly why those other factors also still matter.
That point was just that you can't invoke "fans get things wrong" as some catch-all to negate any suggestion. For starters, they'd negate yours too.
There's a big difference between existing and being well-known. Without being attuned to the Smash fanbase, none of that stuff is major enough to move the needle. All those demographics from my previous post would still elicit the same response.
For a VC game I'm sure it did well, but they don't share digital sales.
There aren't spots, but there are reservations?
...but they're being used somewhat synonymously. And the examples I originally posted used 'spots' to mean reservations.
Though yes, I don't think the fanbase picks are reserved, but they do get a few spots. Though I do think Sakurai will make sure to try to add at least one fanbase pick, so in a sense, I do think at least one spot is reserved. And Nintendo seemed cool with using one spot per pass for a fan favorite. So there is sense in thinking that continuing has a good chance. Even with nothing set in stone, obv.
Sure. I think you're on board with Geno having negatives (they all do) - the sticking point seems more to be acknowledging negatives doesn't inherently mean you think ill of a character's prospects. I don't. It's just... trying to look at the whole picture so you can best gauge the balance.
I'm gonna repeat myself from a previous post and leave it off with, Geno would get in in spite of his remaining negatives (which are now fewer), not because he has none left. And I think there's a real decent shot of that happening.
Don't sweat it. I apologize if I at some point mischaracterized your argument, at points it was a little tricky to infer past what was written.
The Stoopid Unikorn
Spiciest of Guacamoles
I think I prefer franchises sticking to their own worlds when it comes to movies.
The MCU works because "crossovers" like that are so commonplace in the comic books that they were already one cohesive world before it was decided to make a whole series of movies about them with an interconnected story (which are its own separate world from said comics so you don't even need to know about them to enjoy the MCU), so making epic combinations of Marvel heroes was... already normal long before the MCU made it mainstream. Heck, it was a thing before the MCU's writers were even born.
Nintendo's IPs are very self-contained and the movies shouldn't have to live under one cohesive umbrella because it'd be a headache for the writers to try and find ways around all the different ways each series would contradict with others. Splatoon is a perfect example of what I'm saying due to happening in a post-apocalyptic era where humanity as a whole has been extinct for millennia, so the vast majority of Nintendo's franchises cannot fit with Splatoon.
As for why it works in Smash Bros.? Well, it works because it's Smash Bros.
There's rarely an explanation for why everyone is gathered in Smash and when there is, it's usually toys or figurines, so we suspend disbelief and we don't really question why everyone is grouped together in the context of Subspace or World of Light... but since the movies are true to their source material, the writers would actually NEED to find a way to make all the pieces fit in a NCU context, which would require so many retcons that some franchises would risk losing their identity in the process.
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I would respond fully to that...Yeah. That article links to the Sourcegaming video, the sourcegaming video invokes this interview:
At best, it's ambiguous about Smash 4, but it certainly isn't admissible evidence. And even more so as being considered before Cloud (for 4).Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 3
Sakurai discusses stages and costumes in Smash for 3DS/ Wii U.
You got trapped in a game of telephone, because your claim isn't accurate to what's in that article, what's in that article is not accurate to what was said in that video, and what's said in that video is not accurate to what the translation on the site says. And who knows how accurate that translation on the site is either, because Sourcegaming has taken liberties with their translations in the past, it's just that no one usually has the knowledge of Japanese to realize it's not completely faithful.
Thanks? I guess I missed where the merit was said to be among saying they were weak points and not strong arguments and such.
Did you just never make it to the end of the sentence or what? I pretty explicitly called Geno minor only in the context of the whole series, and major in the context of just his game a few times. If you're gonna quote me and reply he's not minor, you're quoting the part where the context is clearly series-wide.
That is the opposite of how Smash works.
Also in your last post you were stressing how he was a Mario character, now you want to divorce SMRPG from the Mario series? Gotta pick a lane here...
...despite being like five posts into this, each, at this point. Alright.
You should know that clearly no one is saying Geno is ineligible, nor have they ever said that - at least since Square has been involved - which is basically all that bare minimum point proves, to my understanding.
It's not an attack on those characters, they're just not in the same situation. You can't only focus on similarities if you want the comparison to hold weight, because that's not the full picture.
I could say why wouldn't we get Kratos if we got another M-rated character like Joker? But that's omitting some pretty important stuff.
Yes. I never did try to dispute the positive. I do think Geno has a good shot, and I think Waluigi has an even better shot.
Raising their negatives to prove they exist doesn't automatically mean I don't think they'll make it. I'm still slightly unsure if you grasp what my position was.
And you do get that those things aren't "fan rules", right? It's fan observation of a factor that works against, but doesn't automatically preclude, character inclusion. Like, you can look at any series and see the spin-off stuff does not get much attention compared to the mainline stuff. It's a valid factor until Smash fundamentally changes its series distribution.
And also, you were putting a lot of weight on the dormancy factor being gone now. Which makes sense, being active does bolster Geno, but how would being a spin-off be a fan rule but being dormant not be a fan rule? I mean, neither is a "fan rule", both have an impact, but we don't have any spin-off characters other than a clone, while we already have several characters who were plucked from dormancy due to popularity.
By your logic, so much as it is, dormancy should've been disproven as a factor a long time ago, not just when the remake got revealed. Of course it is still a factor, but by your reasoning, it shouldn't have been.
But the fact you still considered dormancy meaningful despite being previously proven non-fatal is exactly why those other factors also still matter.
That point was just that you can't invoke "fans get things wrong" as some catch-all to negate any suggestion. For starters, they'd negate yours too.
There's a big difference between existing and being well-known. Without being attuned to the Smash fanbase, none of that stuff is major enough to move the needle. All those demographics from my previous post would still elicit the same response.
For a VC game I'm sure it did well, but they don't share digital sales.
There aren't spots, but there are reservations?
...but they're being used somewhat synonymously. And the examples I originally posted used 'spots' to mean reservations.
Though yes, I don't think the fanbase picks are reserved, but they do get a few spots. Though I do think Sakurai will make sure to try to add at least one fanbase pick, so in a sense, I do think at least one spot is reserved. And Nintendo seemed cool with using one spot per pass for a fan favorite. So there is sense in thinking that continuing has a good chance. Even with nothing set in stone, obv.
Sure. I think you're on board with Geno having negatives (they all do) - the sticking point seems more to be acknowledging negatives doesn't inherently mean you think ill of a character's prospects. I don't. It's just... trying to look at the whole picture so you can best gauge the balance.
I'm gonna repeat myself from a previous post and leave it off with, Geno would get in in spite of his remaining negatives (which are now fewer), not because he has none left. And I think there's a real decent shot of that happening.
Don't sweat it. I apologize if I at some point mischaracterized your argument, at points it was a little tricky to infer past what was written.
But since you said don't sweat it on the last part, and that you apologized for the mischaracterization, well, since I am a nice guy, I say we'll leave it at that. Apology accepted, by the way.
Two things though.
On the "there aren't spots, but there are reservations" part, you did say something about reservations, and I was trying to reply on that. I must have failed miserably.
On that note, not to continue anything, but what do you make of what was said about Geno here in this Smash 4 interview with Sakurai? (I am actually expecting and wanting you to correct me if I am still wrong and debunk that this does not mean Geno was considered for Smash 4, if possible)
Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 3
Sakurai discusses stages and costumes in Smash for 3DS/ Wii U.
sourcegaming.info
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The Stoopid Unikorn
Spiciest of Guacamoles
Not the one you're debating with, but I do wanna point out that Sakurai explicitly says he thought about Geno for Brawl.
If he had also thought of adding the doll in Smash 4, wouldn't he have just... said it? In that same sentence?
Yeah, I know. I was just checking with him. I pretty much ended the debate anyway, and was not debating with him on that link. That said about the interview...
dream1ng
(Including you so you can see this) Despite my arguments, I am not fully expecting Geno in Smash 6, even with the remake. That is partly because I have my expectations in check, unlike the many Geno fans (not that I am picking on them or anything) who did not take the Mii costume in Ultimate well.But in regards to the interview, the reason why I am not fully expecting Geno is because whether for Brawl or the fourth game, Geno becoming playable did not become a reality. It clearly did not become a reality for Ultimate too, so I question if Square Enix is willing to play ball with Geno at all and let him become playable, even with the remake?
dream1ng
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Other interesting tidbits from the sourcegaming translation (and remember not everything may still be how he feels):
Maybe they'd still use it. But here's just an example of a character getting in due to popularity without influence from a ballot. Predating 4's, and believed to already be on the roster for Brawl's.
Just for when we next talk about echoes
Lopsided popularity/recognition a hindrance
: Hold my meat-
Makes you wonder how the Star Fox characters in 4 slipped through the cracks
I know they're in English
Keep in mind this was in 2016. He'd already decided on Simon and Richter, the troll.
Which is funny because when he said it again after Byleth, SourceGaming tried to play down the statement with a bit of a periphrastic translation. Other translators were like, "no, he's just saying there's too many FE characters". Here they just throw it out there. Maybe it was a different translator.
Also, let's update the phrasebook. No more promotional characters/shill picks. Now they're "strategic inclusions"
May be auspicious for the argument that Doom Slayer could use his (in a very Smash-appropriate, non-realistic way). May also be a stretch.
Pretty wild such a grassroots push for such an overall minor character has resonated so widely. Can't think of any other parallels. That weren't memes, at least.
And it's true that Heihachi got the costume and then we got Kazuya, but I don't think Lloyd would offer the some difficulties in moveset creation to Sakurai.
Square clearly on their "Cloud can't be those alt colors"/"sure you don't wanna use Lightning?"/"we no share Mii waves" grind
Also lol "harsh criticism"
Guessing that a translation thing. Not because it isn't true, but because Sakurai wouldn't admit that xD
and there's strike three
No Japan-only source number, like, four.
He said this after already choosing Ultimate's base, knowing there would be no cuts, no real stop of development, and he was going to add every character ever in Smash
"To be more specific, the attack activation for the forward air attack is 13 frames," Sakurai began. "And the one for the back air attack is 15 frames."
I know this always has and always will be Sakurai's mentality, but if there are two main categories of play (competitive and casual/party/FFA), it seems like as long as you make sure no one is too broken for the latter, you can orient basically all balancing around the former. People aren't going to care nearly as much about imbalanced characters during parties and supercasual play where who wins is often just dictated by who has played Smash the most, who stayed out of the fight, or who SD'd least, not who has the best character. That level generally isn't high enough for tiers to matter.
A few pages pack someone said that we'd have to use the ballot for popularity picks on the next Smash, since there hadn't been a newer one.
Maybe they'd still use it. But here's just an example of a character getting in due to popularity without influence from a ballot. Predating 4's, and believed to already be on the roster for Brawl's.
Here are seemingly further examples, though given how early those other characters were in the data, it's possible they knew they were bringing Lucas back before people even knew he wasn't returning, creating the demand. This would align with one of the less remembered parts of the Gematsu leak, where it claimed Lucas was partially worked on but ultimately cut.
I didn't know Tales staff also worked on Smash, I thought it was just Harada's little prefecture
Reminders that derivative characters not being their most faithful representation happens
Just for when we next talk about echoes
Global popularity/recognition important
Lopsided popularity/recognition a hindrance
: Hold my meat-It really underscores just how deeply involved Sakurai is with every aspect of this game, and to what extent he goes for even sort of minor stuff. Like, conversing with FF's sound director just over Cloud's VA's line readings in a game where... he doesn't do much talking.
Makes you wonder how the Star Fox characters in 4 slipped through the cracks
I know they're in English
You heard it here, no third-parties left from... I guess basically the 20th century
Keep in mind this was in 2016. He'd already decided on Simon and Richter, the troll.
This might be due to clumsy translation, but I didn't know he was already saying this about FE back then. I knew he had reservations about Corrin. Didn't know he said the first part.
Which is funny because when he said it again after Byleth, SourceGaming tried to play down the statement with a bit of a periphrastic translation. Other translators were like, "no, he's just saying there's too many FE characters". Here they just throw it out there. Maybe it was a different translator.
Also, let's update the phrasebook. No more promotional characters/shill picks. Now they're "strategic inclusions"
People still would've been mad, but this would've been cool.
I don't know how it appears in the original text, or what (if any) relevance it would have, but he does straight up acknowledge Corrin's sword as a chainsaw.
May be auspicious for the argument that Doom Slayer could use his (in a very Smash-appropriate, non-realistic way). May also be a stretch.
Read: I had to make people care about this guy/girl ;P
And that's why there's no Mai. Not gonna bother for a background character.
I think people already believed Geno had popularity in Japan, but I guess this is further evidence.Interviewer said:
Pretty wild such a grassroots push for such an overall minor character has resonated so widely. Can't think of any other parallels. That weren't memes, at least.
Not a new quote, still interesting. Makes it seem like despite Yuri's popularity or new characters that show up, it'd be Lloyd.
And it's true that Heihachi got the costume and then we got Kazuya, but I don't think Lloyd would offer the some difficulties in moveset creation to Sakurai.
Sakurai lying
Sakurai lying again
Square clearly on their "Cloud can't be those alt colors"/"sure you don't wanna use Lightning?"/"we no share Mii waves" grind
Also lol "harsh criticism"
Guessing that a translation thing. Not because it isn't true, but because Sakurai wouldn't admit that xD
and there's strike three
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This is part of why I say take Sakurai’s wording into consideration but not gospel.Other interesting tidbits from the sourcegaming translation (and remember not everything may still be how he feels):
No Japan-only source number, like, four.
He said this after already choosing Ultimate's base, knowing there would be no cuts, no real stop of development, and he was going to add every character ever in Smash
"To be more specific, the attack activation for the forward air attack is 13 frames," Sakurai began. "And the one for the back air attack is 15 frames."
I know this always has and always will be Sakurai's mentality, but if there are two main categories of play (competitive and casual/party/FFA), it seems like as long as you make sure no one is too broken for the latter, you can orient basically all balancing around the former. People aren't going to care nearly as much about imbalanced characters during parties and supercasual play where who wins is often just dictated by who has played Smash the most, who stayed out of the fight, or who SD'd least, not who has the best character. That level generally isn't high enough for tiers to matter.
A few pages pack someone said that we'd have to use the ballot for popularity picks on the next Smash, since there hadn't been a newer one.
Maybe they'd still use it. But here's just an example of a character getting in due to popularity without influence from a ballot. Predating 4's, and believed to already be on the roster for Brawl's.
Here are seemingly further examples, though given how early those other characters were in the data, it's possible they knew they were bringing Lucas back before people even knew he wasn't returning, creating the demand. This would align with one of the less remembered parts of the Gematsu leak, where it claimed Lucas was partially worked on but ultimately cut.
I didn't know Tales staff also worked on Smash, I thought it was just Harada's little prefecture
Reminders that derivative characters not being their most faithful representation happens
Just for when we next talk about echoes
Global popularity/recognition important
Lopsided popularity/recognition a hindrance
It really underscores just how deeply involved Sakurai is with every aspect of this game, and to what extent he goes for even sort of minor stuff. Like, conversing with FF's sound director just over Cloud's VA's line readings in a game where... he doesn't do much talking.
Makes you wonder how the Star Fox characters in 4 slipped through the cracks
I know they're in English
You heard it here, no third-parties left from... I guess basically the 20th century
Keep in mind this was in 2016. He'd already decided on Simon and Richter, the troll.
This might be due to clumsy translation, but I didn't know he was already saying this about FE back then. I knew he had reservations about Corrin. Didn't know he said the first part.
Which is funny because when he said it again after Byleth, SourceGaming tried to play down the statement with a bit of a periphrastic translation. Other translators were like, "no, he's just saying there's too many FE characters". Here they just throw it out there. Maybe it was a different translator.
Also, let's update the phrasebook. No more promotional characters/shill picks. Now they're "strategic inclusions"
People still would've been mad, but this would've been cool.
I don't know how it appears in the original text, or what (if any) relevance it would have, but he does straight up acknowledge Corrin's sword as a chainsaw.
May be auspicious for the argument that Doom Slayer could use his (in a very Smash-appropriate, non-realistic way). May also be a stretch.
Read: I had to make people care about this guy/girl ;P
And that's why there's no Mai. Not gonna bother for a background character.
I think people already believed Geno had popularity in Japan, but I guess this is further evidence.
Pretty wild such a grassroots push for such an overall minor character has resonated so widely. Can't think of any other parallels. That weren't memes, at least.
Not a new quote, still interesting. Makes it seem like despite Yuri's popularity or new characters that show up, it'd be Lloyd.
And it's true that Heihachi got the costume and then we got Kazuya, but I don't think Lloyd would offer the some difficulties in moveset creation to Sakurai.
Sakurai lying
Sakurai lying again
Square clearly on their "Cloud can't be those alt colors"/"sure you don't wanna use Lightning?"/"we no share Mii waves" grind
Also lol "harsh criticism"
Guessing that a translation thing. Not because it isn't true, but because Sakurai wouldn't admit that xD
and there's strike three
The dude is human. He can change his mind or tell white lies. He mentions Smash might not be able to do much more “shock and awe” reveals, but we know they were negotiating for Steve and Sephiroth as early as 2015 and well before the base game. He mentions the size of the roster potentially dimming further character’s stars, but we know what happened for ultimate. He’s human, he’s going to be inherently contradictory.
Obviously, direct statements from Sakurai are good fuel for an argument, but there’s always a need to take them with a grain of salt.
Well, I know I learned more about something today.
I wonder what his stance on Geno is now? Either way, I have a feeling Geno's fans do take some of what Sakurai said about him too seriously, maybe all of it?
Not that Sakurai wanting Geno is untrue in the first place, but I think it IS possible that Geno fans could have seen Sakurai's views in an exaggerated way, or exaggerate him wanting Geno, even though it is clear that he did want him in. Again, I am saying this because of Geno's Mii costume showing up in Ultimate, and how the Geno fans reacted to it.
dream1ng
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Do we know this or do we just suspect it
Personally I think Sephiroth (or just some FF7 character) as DLC was the provision Square required to acquiesce to Cloud in base, but given how Sakurai said getting everyone back for base almost didn't happen, I'm not convinced he actually had that SE plan hammered out until past 2015.
I know it doesn't make a lot of sense to not sign on Ryu, Cloud and Bayo for Ultimate in 2015, and they probably did for the other two, but I kinda think Square took longer to come to an agreement with. I could see them agreeing to bring Cloud back, but then there being a holdup on how he'd show.
In part perhaps because past Square preferring DLC, passing up on back-end profit of Cloud as DLC is, to be fair, no small sacrifice. Even for Sephiroth. You know that guy would sell unbelievably, he's the most played character. Or at least he was.
This is total baseless conjecture, but maybe the reason FF is the only base third-party without an AT is because Cloud's return in base wasn't assured until later on, so they didn't move ahead with making one. I know they don't add characters past a certain point, but Cloud was already in the game thanks to using Smash 4, he just would've been in flux between dropping as base or DLC.
Either way, there must be some reason it didn't get an AT. It's FF7, I'm sure Sakurai would've been happy to give it priority. It's not the same rights tie-ups like the music and art (though I think not getting any of that stuff was more owing to saving it). It could be the above theory, or it could be as boring as Square's contract prohibiting literally any new FF7 content in base. I mean Cloud's new FS was DLC for a different character. That's weird.
And I know the irony of invoking "Sakurai said" given the rest of your post, but I don't think he'd have any reason to lie about Everyone is Here almost not happening. I mean, it would decrease people expecting it for next game, but he was saying it before DLC was even revealed.
Also it's no guarantee that Sakurai himself wasn't the hold up on Steve given it seems like he didn't come around on his feasibility right away.
Hadokeyblade
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Wasnt it a thing that in the data for Ultimate it's implied that Cloud was added later than the rest of the roster, which backs up the idea that they got him later than the others?
Or am i very much misremembering this? I dont care enough to look it up.
Or am i very much misremembering this? I dont care enough to look it up.
DarthEnderX
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"You're stupid and smell and so does your mother!(no offense)"
Anyway, Geno is a major character in the Mario RPG series, but a minor character in the larger overall Mario franchise.
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dream1ng
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Alright I found it. Yes, this was a claim, but it's not substantiated by any reliable source, so far as I can tell.
People are discussing it here:
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
But this was when the datamine was rolling out, and people playing leaked copies, and there's a lot of premature claims that didn't end up being true, like when people thought Cloud wasn't in WoL at all, and SE had no spirits (no Geno or Mallow) other than Cloud's nonsense.
Though fwiw, I don't think the original claim in this thread was accompanied by one of these false claims.
It's also alleged here, from Stealth, who used to make claims. It predates the thread.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
I think I do recall he knew about Simon beforehand, but also, in general, he wasn't very reliable. I have no idea if this is where the claim started, or if he was just corroborating something said by someone else.
It may be true, I guess, but given when it was being claimed, and by who, you have to take it with an exceptionally big grain of salt.
It is true Cloud barely has any base Spirit Battles, and doesn't show up in any cutscenes (though I think that one would be the same either way, because Square). Which explains why people thought he was just absent.
And that wouldn't play into a "no new FF7 content in base" mandate. He did have one or two random spirit battles apart from his own, which wouldn't really jive with the fabled Square Stinginess. And I'm sure anime guy with big sword would've fit a few more spirits. FE is there, after all.
Could fit with him being late to the party. But who knows, it's not nearly enough to be conclusive.
Brother AJ
Smash Lord
I doubt Sakurai won't be involved, but given the scope of Ultimate a hard reboot seems like a valid way to go. I don't see why we can't refreshen the series while also keeping at least most of the big names we've accrued over the years though.
So many of us will never be able to get over the concept of Smash being a celebration of gaming at this point, and the devs know it, so I feel the ideal solution is to displease the least amount of people possible with roster cuts. Regardless, I think we're just going to have cope with disappointment due to the near impossibility that was Ultimate.
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Arcanir
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A bit late, but here's my Top 10:
Spyro
Raven Beak
Dixie Kong
Monster Hunter
Sans
Elma
Tails
Lyn
Nightmare
Amaterasu
Spyro
Raven Beak
Dixie Kong
Monster Hunter
Sans
Elma
Tails
Lyn
Nightmare
Amaterasu
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We do know that they stated that they negotiated and planned Sephiroth’s trailer focusing on his Advent Children portrayal because no significant work was done on FF7 remake. FFVII Remake started development in late 2015, with the basic scenario for the game planned out. While this isn’t definitive information, it does suggest that Sephiroth was in talks for a while if Sakurai had the trailer planned out before the story for FF7 Remake was close to finalized. If Sephiroth was in talks as late as 2018, Sakurai would have had access to much more up to date Sephiroth material from when FF7 remake was further into development and the story was completely finalized. With that in mind, I think there’s enough circumstantial evidence to suggest Sephiroth was at least in some form of talks since before Ultimate’s base game was even finished. 2016 is at the early end of the possible timeline, but we do know he was in talks early into FF7 remake’s dev cycle.
I think the narrative of Square being stingy as well is also an artifact of Cloud’s meager content in 4. When the content we got in Ultimate was just the already licensed stuff, it fed into that narrative. There’s nothing definitive about SE being hard to work with or Cloud in particular being difficult to negotiate for. At best you have speculation and rumors. If anything, Square did a lot of post launch support for Smash. Beyond its DLC characters, it had a ton of spirit events post launch. We also now know the big obstacle for SE content with cloud was the Byzantine music licensing. There are some minor oddities, like the lack of an AT or spirit battles, but this can be chalked up to Square being protective of the image of their IP to some extent.
Hadokeyblade
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The amount of stuff Square got in Ultimate feels like some kind of intentional overcorrection on the devs part.
Wonder Smash
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I can't say I'm for a hard reboot and as for Cloud, there's a good chance he's one of the characters that'll come back.
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dream1ng
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That's... not what the linked article says. I think the part you're referring to is "The graphics were of course made with Advent Children in mind and despite the plot being written before FFVII Remake was released, I think that was a great [trailer]", which just means the trailer was written prior to April 2020, when FF7R came out.
There's a point of being protective where it verges into austere and exacting, and then plays out in the same way stinginess might.
Ryu also came with pretty meager content in 4, but Capcom didn't insist on saving all new SF content for DLC, necessitating two original characters if Everyone is Here was to be achieved. Capcom was fine sharing their Mii waves with other companies. SF got an AT in base, and spirits, and a normal amount of spirit battles. Ryu got an echo in base, Cloud couldn't even get his new FS.
I get the licensing is more complicated and tangled for some FF content than most other third-parties. I do not believe that in the maybe year(?) that Cloud went from planned to released for Smash 4 (just guessing the timeframe, we don't really know when that plan started) they managed to get three songs and in the following three between his release and Ultimate's, they couldn't even get a single new rip for base.
In Sephiroth's presentation, Sakurai said some of the music only requires a single license holder. They just held it all off for the DLC. Do you think it was Sakurai/Nintendo who decided to not even add a single song in base? And the art. Even if, for some reason, you couldn't add the Nomura art right away... there are plenty of official pictures of Cloud out there. Past that, if you're saving the FF7 cast... couldn't add a Chocobo spirit? A Moogle? A Cactuar? The summons that actually show up on Midgar and don't have spirits? Something?
Or just how about the fact that FF is actually more than FF7? They don't even seem to have access to the other games.
Obviously Square is open to collaboration and compromise. They're just also clearly more particular than the other companies. And particular and stingy are two sides of the same coin. But it is true that they did have a plan to add the missing content that constitute the bulk of the cries of stinginess.
It just happened in a way that... proves they are indeed a little more stingy than the others.
And that's without even getting into Dragon Quest or Kingdom Hearts.
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Lionfranky
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Square Enix collaborated with various companies without much trouble before. Look at Tomb Raider before they sold that to Embracer.
32:12 mark
Here, Sakurai explained why contents from Square Enix was difficult to secure. How music rights were divided into multiple owners from different countries. This is why non-video game series, especially from Japan won't join Smash. It's much easier to secure wester video game chraacters than non-video game Japanese characters. Yet, even Square Enix has complicated right issue. Imagine legal nightmare that would be shounen property.
Japanese game companies tend to honor the original composers, so works of composers are owned by the composers themselves unlike western video game companies that own everything about series.
Here, Sakurai explained why contents from Square Enix was difficult to secure. How music rights were divided into multiple owners from different countries. This is why non-video game series, especially from Japan won't join Smash. It's much easier to secure wester video game chraacters than non-video game Japanese characters. Yet, even Square Enix has complicated right issue. Imagine legal nightmare that would be shounen property.
Japanese game companies tend to honor the original composers, so works of composers are owned by the composers themselves unlike western video game companies that own everything about series.
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You're right.
he burned up the shock and awe ages ago
dream1ng
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I know. There hasn't been shock and awe behind a character reveal since... the last time there was a character reveal.
I was more thinking since the time of smash 4’s dlc
Nabbitfan730
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Sakurai's stance on Geno hasn't changed nor doesn't need a reason to. There were just higher priorities in mind at the time with Dragon Quest XII coming Switch and FF7 Switch port and Remake being the big titles at the time. Nintendo and Square would want to focus their promotion on that which included Smash.
Makes sense now with the SMRPG remake at the time was still in development or even just planning stages so it wouldn't be right to showcase Geno and focus on his spotlight when it wasn't his time. People always seem to forget that Nintendo was the one who chose the roster for both FP1 and 2, Not Sakurai.
People also seem to overestimate Geno's competition bit when it comes to Square when he had most Square representation that wasn't FF7 nor DQ with his Spirit and Mii Costume. When factoring in how stingy Square can be, it does say a lot
Chrono, Terra, Black Mage etc couldn't even do that or any at all.
Square doesn't own KH, Disney does.
If I understand correctly, Geno is considered a third party character because he was made by Square (who had merged with Enix years ago to become the company we know as Square Enix), but then again isn't Geno considered a Mario franchise character?