Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Sucumbio]

We tend to skew toward our first game being the "safest" roster when the next game brings whoever back... So brawl cuts hurt and my wife actually stopped playing bc no snake and I spent ballot on Snake ... Boo Nintendo! Work your junk out before rushing for a sequel we had how long between melee and brawl? No wonder the man was tired!

Going off 4 and base Ultimate there's a list of characters that I can't compile bc my blood sugar low and it's tiring. But assuredly that list is comprised of characters who have at least been playable since Brawl.

Anyway ultimate is awesome because it's every character they dropped etc. It's as great as umk3 for fans of the old school MK games. Or Tekken 3. Or VF 4 ... It's legendary. So if it's your first game whoever comes back in the next smash is on the It List.

 

[Opossum]

We tend to skew toward our first game being the "safest" roster when the next game brings whoever back... So brawl cuts hurt and my wife actually stopped playing bc no snake and I spent ballot on Snake ... Boo Nintendo! Work your junk out before rushing for a sequel we had how long between melee and brawl? No wonder the man was tired!

Going off 4 and base Ultimate there's a list of characters that I can't compile bc my blood sugar low and it's tiring. But assuredly that list is comprised of characters who have at least been playable since Brawl.

Anyway ultimate is awesome because it's every character they dropped etc. It's as great as umk3 for fans of the old school MK games. Or Tekken 3. Or VF 4 ... It's legendary. So if it's your first game whoever comes back in the next smash is on the It List.

...???

In spite of some of my personal gripes, Smash 4 was absolutely not rushed. It had a very standard 2-2.5 years of active development time for the base game, which is on par with Brawl (give or take a bit of time for Brawl's delay). The only Smash game that we know was rushed and had heavy time crunch was Melee.

Stop trying to give me homework!

It's not homework it's extra credit!!

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

We tend to skew toward our first game being the "safest" roster when the next game brings whoever back... So brawl cuts hurt and my wife actually stopped playing bc no snake and I spent ballot on Snake ... Boo Nintendo! Work your junk out before rushing for a sequel we had how long between melee and brawl? No wonder the man was tired!

Going off 4 and base Ultimate there's a list of characters that I can't compile bc my blood sugar low and it's tiring. But assuredly that list is comprised of characters who have at least been playable since Brawl.

Anyway ultimate is awesome because it's every character they dropped etc. It's as great as umk3 for fans of the old school MK games. Or Tekken 3. Or VF 4 ... It's legendary. So if it's your first game whoever comes back in the next smash is on the It List.

Bottom text

 

[Lionfranky]

This is the first time Chief entering platform fighter.... and setting foot on Nintendo platform 4th times by technicality ;p
Minecraft, Fortnite, Fall Guys and this.

 

[Kriven]

Smash 6 VG All-Star "Tilt NintenNerds" edition!

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Honestly, I don't think Pichu or Young Link should be some easy to throw out character either. They're both unique in different ways, now that Link is too different from the original to really hold the old playstyle. Pichu always had a different playstyle due to the "hurting itself" mechanic.

That said, obviously Toon Link is a bigger deal than Young Link, but I doubt both will stay on average. They have their own niche nowadays, so it's not a redundancy issue either.

--------------------

As for the whole "why is Isabelle in a lower position", Villager is the first character. They're also the core representative of AC. Isabelle is a unique semi-clone that branched off the old moveset. She wouldn't be able to function this way if it weren't for Villager. While both absolutely should stay, Villager is clearly the main of the two if suddenly it went down to one character. Bar a reboot with 1 per franchise(I don't even see 1 per franchise being remotely plausible. Downsized, sure), Isabelle would not get cut. She's easy to make. Mario Kart 8 having both in speaks on how both are key to the franchise too, which is another reason why Villager is safe(and technically more safe than Isabelle. Even if it's by a super slim margin).

Speaking of that, I do think exceptions would be made for a reboot(so it's still going to have a loooot of characters); Super Mario isn't going without its 4 core characters(Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser), AC is getting 2. Fire Emblem is in no way getting just 1. Removing any kind of Echo or Clone, you still have Ike, Robin, and maybe 1 more if they want Byleth or Corrin. Pokemon also has this factor; Charizard and Pikachu are pretty much safe. Mewtwo I wish was, but it might get a lower priority when it comes to being created, like in Brawl. So rather safe. Lucario also was something they worked super hard on and clearly want to keep, so might also be in the safe zone or really close(possibly slightly higher than Mewtwo). The rest are far more variable. Any clones are easy to return last second(Jigglypuff, Pichu), the others required way more work to recreate. As for a few others;

• Zelda would still have Link, with Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf all pretty much on the same level of returning, so rather damn safe.
• DKC pretty much has Donkey Kong and Diddy as a safe returning, with K. Rool lower priority.
• Final Fantasy VII is an oddball. Neither are really all that safe, but Cloud might make it back alone if licensing gets too high.
• Castlevania is on the other end; the whole point was both characters are pretty much part of each other, so Richter is as safe as Simon is.
• Likewise, Ken is dependent on Ryu, and Ryu is unlikely to leave.
• Star Fox is pretty easy to go down to one character, much like Mother/EarthBound. That said, keeping the semi-clones isn't that hard either, but Wolf is less easy to make so is understandably of lesser priority(also, Falco is more popular. That said, Ness has more worldwide popularity than Lucas due to No Expert For You coming into play).

This is only speaking of franchises with more than one character. I don't honestly have any real thoughts on single character franchises and their likeliness to return.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think you're underestimating how much development time clones take. Sure, they take much, much less than regular newcomers, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that if a characters is here, their clones is a lock (like saying that "Richter is as safe as Simon" or "Ken is dependant on Ryu"). Because first, even if they don't take a lot of times, well they do take time so they could potentially add new clones. And second, even Sakurai admit in Smash 4 that clones were lower priority and the team only makes clones later in development when they realised that they have a bit more time for some bonus fighters. This is how Lucina, Dark pit and Dr. Mario got added in Smash 4, they weren't planned at first, but later on they decided to added them becasue they had a bit of time. So if he still have this mindset, it's possible that characters like Richter wouldn't be in the base plan of the game, but would be very low priority if they have more time later. Personally, I feel like there will be at least a few clones cut assuming there's no Everyone is here 2. Besides, you say that "clones like Jigglypuff and Pichu are easy to make last second", but Jigglypuff hasn't been a clone since the first game (already in Melee both Kirby and Puff got more than enough change to obviously not be clones).

Also I just wanted to say since you talked about Fire emblem and Byleth or Corrin, if we do have a fairly decent amount of cut, there's no way Corrin is coming back. He's genuinely the only first party characters that I would be shocked to see come back unless they do Everyone is here 2. Even in his own franchise he's one of the most hated main character coming from one of the most controversial game in the franchise. They'll go with Byleth before even considering bringing back Corrin.

 

[Kriven]

I would assume that third-party clones don't follow the same "added at the last second" practice, since Nintendo has to secure and pay for a license to use them.

 

[SPEN18]

I know a lot of it has to do with the advent of DLC and then Ultimate coming so soon after, but base Smash 4 is definitely undersold in terms of its roster ambition. If you look at that base game newcomer lineup, it's robust. And, while not perfect, has honestly aged better than I thought it would at the time.

 

[fogbadge]

Smash 6 VG All-Star "Tilt NintenNerds" edition!

nintennerds? is this meant to please them or annoy them

 

[PeridotGX]

Smash 6 VG All-Star "Tilt NintenNerds" edition!

View attachment 373372

There is no universe where Zelda gets one character but Sonic gets 4. With a roster this size, three would be pushing it. Also, Crash and Spyro? Shovel Knight and Shantae?

 

[HyperSomari64]

There is no universe where Zelda gets one character but Sonic gets 4.

And None of them are Knuckles.

 

[Schnee117]

There is no universe where Zelda gets one character but Sonic gets 4. With a roster this size, three would be pushing it. Also, Crash and Spyro? Shovel Knight and Shantae?

I mean, it's billed as "Tilt Nintendo Nerds" (tl. piss off Nintendo Fans) so...

 

[Kriven]

Sonic is objectively the more important franchise, sorry. He's the Bugs Bunny to Mario's Mickey Mouse. Link is... Samurai Jack.

FWIW: The next three would have been Zelda, Ganondorf, Doomslayer. I guess that's DLC Pack 1.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Smash 6 VG All-Star "Tilt NintenNerds" edition!

View attachment 373372

Mind telling what program or web page you're using to make these

 

[Kriven]

Mind telling what program or web page you're using to make these

For the past ones I've been lazy and used this site I found:

Smash Bros. Roster Maker

Create your ideal roster for Super Smash Bros. in the browser!

benshoeman.github.io

It's pretty neat because it has templates for all of the Smash games.

When I'm really into it I do something more involved in GIMP.

 

[Speed Weed]

Smash 6 VG All-Star "Tilt NintenNerds" edition!

View attachment 373372

This roster feels like it just woke up from having been cryogenically sealed in like 2015

 

[RodNutTakin]

Yeah I looked at this site, and IMO this just seems unorthodox compared to using GIMP templates in terms of having to save a bunch of transparent images on your computer, compared to what GIMP lets me do faster as seen here with this "idealized Melee" thing I made like a couple of weeks ago.

 

[PeridotGX]

Sonic is objectively the more important franchise, sorry. He's the Bugs Bunny to Mario's Mickey Mouse. Link is... Samurai Jack.

FWIW: The next three would have been Zelda, Ganondorf, Doomslayer. I guess that's DLC Pack 1.

Yeah, back in ye olde days. The death of that rivalry is old enough to drink. I'd cut Tails, Shadow, Shantae, and Spyro, and replace them with Ganon, Master Chief, Kratos, and Kris Deltarune or Jill Valentine.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Well, Meowscarada and Tinkaton are fan favorites, from what I’ve seen.

M-09 from project hammer would smile down upon Tinkaton from video game heaven

 

[HyperSomari64]

Sonic is objectively the more important franchise, sorry. He's the Bugs Bunny to Mario's Mickey Mouse. Link is... Samurai Jack.

Bugs Bunny and Samurai Jack are from the same company, so the comparison is wrong.

 

[Stratos]

I still remember that some people calling Nintendo the "Disney of video games".

 

[Pupp135]

I'd like to challenge everybody who takes issue with people speculating over specific character cuts to do the following.

Make a numbered list of all Smash fighters. Rank them in order of highest priority to keep, to lowest priority to keep. After all, we know that internal priority is something they have used, as it's gotten characters cut in the past, so there should be nothing wrong with that for the sake of speculation.

And the caveat is there can be no ties. No broad categories such as "these are the ones who'd never be cut." Rank them anyway. Order even the Original Eight in terms of priority.

And then take a look at who you consider the bottom twenty or so.

Here is my take at this. I did this speculating on what I could see Nintendo do.










I’ll just note a few fighters with near tie scenarios:
I feel like Zelda and Peach are interchangeable, but I think Sakurai/Nintendo would give Zelda a slight edge as she seemed to have a notable part in World of Light.
Pokemon Trainer is technically ordered Charizard, Squirtle, Ivysaur, but I feel like they would go with the trainer before using solo Charizard again.
Miis would technically be Brawler, Gunner, Swordfighter, but I assume that they’re kind of an all or noting case.
Robin and Byleth feel equally important, but Robin has a small edge as Byleth had the more negative reception.
Pyra and Mythra are a similar case to Pokemon Trainer, but if only one could stay, Pyra would probably be prioritized.

 

[Opossum]

Smash 6 VG All-Star "Tilt NintenNerds" edition!

View attachment 373372

You know, the irony here is that it's not even the Nintendo side that's the issue for me lol. Like I could gripe about the lack of Zelda, Lucario, or Isabelle (who I'd personally put over Villager for something like this), but that's all relatively minor.

But for what's (presumably, and do correct me if I'm wrong) meant to be a take on the concept of "Smash if, from the start, it covered the entire game industry save for Specifically Sony I Guess," it's the other choices I have more issues with. Sega being just "the three already in Smash + three extra Sonic characters," Richter over Alucard (while it works well in Smash for what it tried to do, something like this having what's presumably an echo doesn't make a ton of sense), the lack of Master Chief despite Microsoft having the two characters it has in canon Smash, the lack of Dante, Monster Hunter, and any Resident Evil character for Capcom, the complete lack of anybody from Koei-Tecmo, Ubisoft, Blizzard, Valve, and Rockstar (and Sony if excluding them wasn't intentional), the two indie picks being very Nintendo-centric (as much as I love Shovel Knight) instead of ones with more universal appeal (say, an Undertale character), and the lack of some genres pretty much entirely (say, older adventure games, or more modern mobile games, or first person shooters) make the balance seem very off.

So like, while the Nintendo picks for the most part actually make sense for a game that's designed the way I think you're trying to, it's the non-Nintendo stuff that seems too Nintendo-leaning...if that makes sense.

 

[Kriven]

Yeah, back in ye olde days. The death of that rivalry is old enough to drink. I'd cut Tails, Shadow, Shantae, and Spyro, and replace them with Ganon, Master Chief, Kratos, and Kris Deltarune or Jill Valentine.

"Playable on a Nintendo console" is still in effect, or I would have had Kratos and Chief. Spyro and Crash are the best PlayStation can muster. The only other Indie characters that equal Shante and Shovel Knight are Quote or Frisk (well, Sans, but protags!)

Bugs Bunny and Samurai Jack are from the same company, so the comparison is wrong.

Only if you don't understand what's being compared.

You know, the irony here is that it's not even the Nintendo side that's the issue for me lol. Like I could gripe about the lack of Zelda, Lucario, or Isabelle (who I'd personally put over Villager for something like this), but that's all relatively minor.

But for what's (presumably, and do correct me if I'm wrong) meant to be a take on the concept of "Smash if, from the start, it covered the entire game industry save for Specifically Sony I Guess," it's the other choices I have more issues with. Sega being just "the three already in Smash + three extra Sonic characters," Richter over Alucard (while it works well in Smash for what it tried to do, something like this having what's presumably an echo doesn't make a ton of sense), the lack of Master Chief despite Microsoft having the two characters it has in canon Smash, the lack of Dante, Monster Hunter, and any Resident Evil character for Capcom, the complete lack of anybody from Koei-Tecmo, Ubisoft, Blizzard, Valve, and Rockstar (and Sony if excluding them wasn't intentional), the two indie picks being very Nintendo-centric (as much as I love Shovel Knight) instead of ones with more universal appeal (say, an Undertale character), and the lack of some genres pretty much entirely (say, older adventure games, or more modern mobile games, or first person shooters) make the balance seem very off.

So like, while the Nintendo picks for the most part actually make sense for a game that's designed the way I think you're trying to, it's the non-Nintendo stuff that seems too Nintendo-leaning...if that makes sense.

It's Smash 6, not a total AU. It's a "From This Point On," so I kept (most) of the third-party characters already included. Richter makes the cut for the same reason he made it into Ultimate: Japan prefers him over Simon.

Nintendo-console rules still apply, so Chief and Kratos don't cut it. That said, the entire section with Lara, Crash, Spyro, and FF7 is representative of the best era in PlayStation's history.

Dante has been usurped by Bayo.

Jill was a tough call (though actually I couldn't decide between Jill / Chris / Leon). Monster Hunter is best represented by its monsters... and is already doing so.

ActiUbiBlizzValveStar have maybe one meaningful mascot between them in Rayman, who's on a tier with Earthworm Jim, not Crash or Spyro. I should have probably included a Fortnite character. Regardless, Japan bias is in effect, since it's still supposed to be with Sakurai and Nintendo heading the project.

Sega, absent Atlus, really only has Sonic to hang with the AAAll-stars. If they were to get more representatives their next two would be Knuckles and Amy. Then Metal. After that you could maybe start looking at Yakuza or something. There's just no planet where any of their forgotten Gen IPs or Crazy Taxi exist on the same tier as Sonic.

If I weren't trying to follow on from Ultimate and were just doing this as a total alt. timeline beginning with N64, it would look pretty different. Joker, Terry, Banjo, Marth, Kazuya, Falcon, Kazuya, Kirby, Inkling and Villager wouldn't be there at all. Smash 64 would probably have been Mario, Crash, Sonic, Spyro, Lara Croft, Cloud, Pikachu, Ryu, Mega Man, Luigi, Tails, Pac-Man and build out from there. I doubt Legend of Zelda would ever be in the game in that timeline, and Sony wouldn't have sold Crash/Spyro.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Nintendo-console rules still apply, so Chief and Kratos don't cut it. That said, the entire section with Lara, Crash, Spyro, and FF7 is representative of the best era in PlayStation's history.

I feel like that "rule" doesn't apply anymore. Cloud, Sephiroth, Joker, and Sora all had little-to-no appearances on Nintendo consoles when they were added. Also, while I'm not sure on Kratos, Chief actually does have similarly tiny appearances on the Switch as the characters I mentioned.

 

[Kriven]

Kingdom Hearts has at least four games on handhelds, most of which were (or maybe still are) exclusives and offer Cloud/Seph/Sora positions.

I don't know enough about Joker.

What was Chief in? I had a few issues of Nintendo Power that claimed Halo: Reach was going to be a DS title, but that never happened AFAIK.

Edit: I also think the rule has more to do with franchises than specific characters. Cameos are a thin loophole, but Final Fantasy and SMT aren't exactly missing from the Nintendo library.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I know a lot of it has to do with the advent of DLC and then Ultimate coming so soon after, but base Smash 4 is definitely undersold in terms of its roster ambition. If you look at that base game newcomer lineup, it's robust. And, while not perfect, has honestly aged better than I thought it would at the time.

I would say that Smash 4 newcomers are not as bad as some people tend to say, but personally if I look at the 3 last games, I think Smash 4 has by far the weakest lineup, with Brawl and Ultimate being much stronger. Obviously there's some good choices, Mega man was extremely hype, Pac-Man was a fairly decent choice (although really not my first choice for a third party), Villager was a very cool concept, Bowser Jr. was a very fun surprise, Duck hunt is easily my favorite retro characters of the whole franchise and they really nailed the DLC newcomers. But the thing is imo Smash 4 lowest characters are just really low. Even as a retro/legacy pick I think Little mac is very boring, the Miis just take too much slots and are just super boring and exist just for the sake or selling more DLC (which to be fair Ultimate has some nice costumes, but Smash 4 were just boring at best and ugly at worst). Imo I just find Rosalina, Palutena and Greninja to be very boring choices. And finally the clones, I get that they're just bonus fighters, and I don't mind Lucina too much but Dark pit is just again a very boring choices. Even if you wanted another clone Dark samus would have been way more exciting for example.

 

[Stratos]

Since the Pokémon Horizons anime series is not going to see Captain Pikachu have an Explorers-acquired Captain Meowth as his eternal rival, in other words we won't see Pikachu vs. Meowth again, like Ash's Pikachu vs. Team Rocket's Meowth, we'll have to sadly forget that Meowth will be coming as a newcomer in future Super Smash Bros. games. But on the other hand it can be done, I mean he comes as a newcomer and that makes me happy. Meowth gained some publicity thanks to the Pokémon series, which famously featured Team Rocket's human-speaking Meowth. I'd also love to see Detective Pikachu uncover a Meowth criminal's plot. But I know if they did that then it would be seen as Meowth's species being evil and being an enemy of Pikachu's species and those are things we wouldn't want either of those last two to become.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Kingdom Hearts has at least four games on handhelds, most of which were (or maybe still are) exclusives and offer Cloud/Seph/Sora positions.

I don't know enough about Joker.

What was Chief in? I had a few issues of Nintendo Power that claimed Halo: Reach was going to be a DS title, but that never happened AFAIK.

Edit: I also think the rule has more to do with franchises than specific characters. Cameos are a thin loophole, but Final Fantasy and SMT aren't exactly missing from the Nintendo library.

SMT isn't in Smash. Persona is. So that wouldn't matter. We only got one game in the Persona franchise on Nintendo, and it was only right before Smash Ultimate released. Joker was chosen well before his game would release, so it's not a core point of how he got in. He didn't get in cause he had a Nintendo appearance(though them planning to have one may have helped with licensing and why Atlus and Sakurai were good with the idea. It certainly couldn't have hurt. Even then, the 3DS Persona game is notably absent in any content, so it's at most a minor incentive to further make negotiations even easier. Persona 1-5 have content in Smash only, which none were on Nintendo till well after Joker released. Basically? The Persona series had no real prior appearance on Nintendo before being added to Smash).

(Correction: Two 3DS Persona games. My bad).

Kingdom Hearts didn't get most of their big games onto Nintendo till after Sora was decided upon, so it had barely any games. However, they are canon, so he's a different position too. Cloud was only in spin-offs at best, and a game he didn't star in was not released till after he was in Smash anyway. Joker had a lucky factor in that a spin-off game he is actually important to released, so he's in a slightly different kind of position). Of course, Final Fantasy was already on Nintendo as a franchise anyway, so it doesn't say that much. SE agreeing to put further stuff on Nintendo? Not a big deal.

Keep in mind with Cloud is that he had noting but pure cameo appearances on Nintendo till he was added. That's when any kind of notable game he stars in came out, after his inclusion. This is Master Chief's position, cameoing in Minecraft(and I think Fortnite now too? Which is his model fully, not just a clear cameo skin based upon him).

Among the 3, only Sora was in mainline games. Joker was the only one with a spin-off actually about him. And Cloud was in pure cameo territory for all his Nintendo appearances. The fact his game wasn't on there(or even a spin-off starring him) shows how unexpected and crazy he was. He was pretty much unimportant Nintendo-wise in itself due to that.

 

[Schnee117]

Saying Bayonetta has usurped Dante is hilarious given DMCV alone outsells the entire Bayonetta franchise and I wouldn't be shocked if DMC4 did too.

SMT isn't in Smash. Persona is. So that wouldn't matter. We only got one game in the Persona franchise on Nintendo, and it was only right before Smash Ultimate released.

There's two but both games are ultra niche spin-offs that not many people bought so it wouldn't change much anyway, especially considering Joker is only in the second game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's two but both games are ultra niche spin-offs that not many people bought so it wouldn't change much anyway, especially considering Joker is only in the second game.

Was it both Persona Q games? I never got either and only remember the one with Joker in it.

But yep, pretty much~

 

[Schnee117]

Was it both Persona Q games? I never got either and only remember the one with Joker in it.

But yep, pretty much~

Both games are 3ds exclusive because they're Etrian Odyssey style games which meant the touch screen was a necessity for the map drawing aspect.

Of course that wouldn't be an issue now that the first three EO games are on other systems

 

[MrMcNuts]

ActiUbiBlizzValveStar have maybe one meaningful mascot between them in Rayman, who's on a tier with Earthworm Jim, not Crash or Spyro.

Idc if people dislike him or not but Rayman is 100% above Earthworm Jim lol

 

[SPEN18]

I would say that Smash 4 newcomers are not as bad as some people tend to say, but personally if I look at the 3 last games, I think Smash 4 has by far the weakest lineup, with Brawl and Ultimate being much stronger. Obviously there's some good choices, Mega man was extremely hype, Pac-Man was a fairly decent choice (although really not my first choice for a third party), Villager was a very cool concept, Bowser Jr. was a very fun surprise, Duck hunt is easily my favorite retro characters of the whole franchise and they really nailed the DLC newcomers. But the thing is imo Smash 4 lowest characters are just really low. Even as a retro/legacy pick I think Little mac is very boring, the Miis just take too much slots and are just super boring and exist just for the sake or selling more DLC (which to be fair Ultimate has some nice costumes, but Smash 4 were just boring at best and ugly at worst). Imo I just find Rosalina, Palutena and Greninja to be very boring choices. And finally the clones, I get that they're just bonus fighters, and I don't mind Lucina too much but Dark pit is just again a very boring choices. Even if you wanted another clone Dark samus would have been way more exciting for example.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion but I don't really think of Mac, Rosa, Palutena, and Greninja as boring. I mean, you can put Rosa and Greninja in the "aged better than I thought they might" bin; Mac was straight hype all the way.

Brawl's lineup was also very strong though of course had the advantage of coming earlier, with icons like Diddy, Wario, Dedede still on the board after Melee. Though there were a few oddities in that roster also.
But man, imagine if Ridley and Villager had been deemed feasible when Brawl's roster was decided.

Comparing base games only (which is what my post was about to begin with), 4's newcomer lineup is just flat-out deeper than Ult. In retrospect, Ult for the most part made the most of the base newcomer slots it had, but there just weren't that many to go around and so it's just hard to rate it higher than 4 or Brawl.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Smash 4's base roster was a direct response to many of Brawl's criticisms. The biggest criticism when Brawl was that there were very few new first party franchises. Two of them were retro franchises (Kid Icarus and R.O,B.) and Wario, while unique, was still tied to Mario (and was often seen as a Mario character like Yoshi.). Pikmin was the only completely new first party franchise that was included that wasn't tied to the NES. People were expecting a lot more new franchises. In hindsight, it made sense, Melee had only given us three new franchises period (Ice Climber, Fire Emblem and Game & Watch), but people still felt like Smash wasn't including enough first party franchises. The only third parties being Sonic and Metal Gear also drew some ire. When people learned that third party characters were on the table, they went wild. Fan rosters had a ton of them, and even conservative rosters usually gave us around four or five third party franchises.

So, Smash 4 gave us...

• Animal Crossing
• Mega Man
• Wii Fit
• Punch Out!!
• Mii
• Pac-Man
• Xenoblade Chronicles
• Duck Hunt

That means we got 8 new franchises, 6 of which being first party franchises. Animal Crossing, Mii and Wii Fit were juggernauts. Punch Out!! had been requested for ages. Xenoblade Chronicles was a modern critical darling. Duck Hunt was the most financially successful and recognizable retro pick. And I don't even need to explain Mega Man and Pac-Man.

• Street Fighter
• Final Fantasy
• Bayonetta

Then DLC went an added three more, making the total amount of franchises 11. Two giant franchises and a modern critical darling. Smash 4 introduced more franchises than any other Smash game. Even the original and Ultimate (after DLC) only introduced 10 each. So that's one major criticism directly addressed.

The characters from already represented franchises were great picks as well. Rosalina, Greninja, Palutena, Robin and Bowser Jr. were all popular characters then and remain popular characters. I think a lot of the issues some people took with them was that they were accused of being "flash in the pans" or "corporate picks that no one actually wanted." Almost ten years later and no one would claim that those five characters aren't popular and beloved in their franchises, at least objectively. People are just really bad at figuring out what's genuinely popular and what's a trend. And some of those negative first impressions can stick around. Lucina and Dark Pit got in by different circumstance, but they were still popular characters. The only potential dud of a unique character was Corrin, even then, they aren't hated nearly as much as some people would have you believe.

Smash 4 was a game of pushing boundaries and introducing new ideas. I keep seeing people state that Smash 4's roster was bad. I heavily disagree. I just think that some people felt left behind by a change in direction. One of the reasons Brawl's inclusions were so celebrated was because the roster focused on building up what was already there. Smash 4's didn't, it focused on bringing new things in. If you didn't feel particularly strong about the new franchises, it could seem lame. But that's where I recommend you try something new. Smash 4 got me to try Xenoblade Chronicles, Final Fantasy and Bayonetta. I love those games now. It was incredible to see Punch Out!! and Fire Emblem Awakening get a character because I loved those games. Without the Smash 4 additions, the roster would have a lot of major holes, and part of the reason that Ultimate's roster is so incredible is that it has the Smash 4 characters in it.

Gameplay is another matter, but that's a gameplay criticism, not a roster criticism. LMAO

 

[osby]

Smash 4's base roster was a direct response to many of Brawl's criticisms. The biggest criticism when Brawl was that there were very few new first party franchises. Two of them were retro franchises (Kid Icarus and R.O,B.) and Wario, while unique, was still tied to Mario (and was often seen as a Mario character like Yoshi.). Pikmin was the only completely new first party franchise that was included that wasn't tied to the NES. People were expecting a lot more new franchises. In hindsight, it made sense, Melee had only given us three new franchises period (Ice Climber, Fire Emblem and Game & Watch), but people still felt like Smash wasn't including enough first party franchises. The only third parties being Sonic and Metal Gear also drew some ire. When people learned that third party characters were on the table, they went wild. Fan rosters had a ton of them, and even conservative rosters usually gave us around four or five third party franchises.

So, Smash 4 gave us...

• Animal Crossing
• Mega Man
• Wii Fit
• Punch Out!!
• Mii
• Pac-Man
• Xenoblade Chronicles
• Duck Hunt

That means we got 8 new franchises, 6 of which being first party franchises. Animal Crossing, Mii and Wii Fit were juggernauts. Punch Out!! had been requested for ages. Xenoblade Chronicles was a modern critical darling. Duck Hunt was the most financially successful and recognizable retro pick. And I don't even need to explain Mega Man and Pac-Man.

• Street Fighter
• Final Fantasy
• Bayonetta

Then DLC went an added three more, making the total amount of franchises 11. Two giant franchises and a modern critical darling. Smash 4 introduced more franchises than any other Smash game. Even the original and Ultimate (after DLC) only introduced 10 each. So that's one major criticism directly addressed.

The characters from already represented franchises were great picks as well. Rosalina, Greninja, Palutena, Robin and Bowser Jr. were all popular characters then and remain popular characters. I think a lot of the issues some people took with them was that they were accuses of being "flash in the pans" or "corporate picks that no one actually wanted." Almost ten years later and no one would claim that those five characters aren't popular and beloved in their franchises, at least objectively. People are just really bad at figuring out what's genuinely popular and what's a trend. And some of those negative first impressions can stick around. Lucina and Dark Pit got in by different circumstance, but they were still popular characters. The only potential dud of a unique character was Corrin, even then, they aren't hated nearly as much as some people would have you believe.

Smash 4 was a game of pushing boundaries and introducing new ideas. I keep seeing people state that Smash 4's roster was bad. I heavily disagree. I just think that some people felt left behind by a change in direction. One of the reasons Brawl's inclusions were so celebrated was because the roster focused on building up what was already there. Smash 4's didn't, it focused on bringing new things in. If you didn't feel particularly strong about the new franchises, it could seem lame. But that's where I recommend you try something new. Smash 4 got me to try Xenoblade Chronicles, Final Fantasy and Bayonetta. I love those games now. It was incredible to see Punch Out!! and Fire Emblem Awakening get a character because I loved those games. Without the Smash 4 additions, the roster would have a lot of major holes, and part of the reason that Ultimate's roster is so incredible is that it has the Smash 4 characters in it.

Gameplay is another matter, but that's a gameplay criticism, not a roster criticism. LMAO

That's a pretty well-written analysis that I fully agree so there's not much I can add other than Smash 4 also remembered that female characters exist.

 

[StrangeKitten]

That's a pretty well-written analysis that I fully agree so there's not much I can add other than Smash 4 also remembered that female characters exist.

While I agree with the notion that we absolutely need more female characters in both Smash and video games in general, I think the fault lies with video games, not Smash. When adding iconic video game characters, first from Nintendo and then from third parties, it's just a fact that there are far more male characters. Even now, when I think of both characters I want and characters who deserve to get in, I think of a lot more male characters. And you can't exclude an iconic character just for being male, that would be silly.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I made a newcomer roster for an Ultimate sequel quite recently - with my goals being

1. Please both Nintendo All-Stars and Celebration-of-Gaming-History fans (specifically by having an even newcomer split)
2. Don't fully pander to fan demand and put on my own creative stamp
3. Avoid completely wild/personal picks and still try to please fans either way

Absolutely not realistic, nor is it meant to be. I tried to fill what I felt were the biggest absences on both sides of the roster: Zelda characters for Nintendo, and adult/gritty Western IPs for 3rd parties.

An "even split" isn't really the direction I'd want a future Smash to go when handling 3Ps, I'd much prefer they choose one or the other between a NAS or COGH, but it makes for a fun challenge.

 

[fogbadge]

supposed to be with Sakurai and Nintendo heading the project.

well you got one kirby character so you messed that up

Sora all had little-to-no appearances on Nintendo consoles when they were added.

that's just not true

 

[Perkilator]

I know I’ve already made a post like this, but this time I wanted to do something different. If you could change anything about the roster of the first two Project X Zone games, what would you change?

Spoiler: My PxZ1 changes

Pair Units

• Ryu & Chun-Li
• Ken & Morrigan
• Lloyd Irving & Yuri Lowell
• Xiaoyu & Hwoarang

Solo Units

• Jin Kazama
• Gilius Thunderhead

Adapted out

• Alisa Bosconovitch
• Flynn Scifo

Spoiler: My PxZ2 changes

Pair Units

• Frank West & Chuck Greene
• Pit & Bayonetta

Solo Units

• Tarosuke
• Rose (Street Fighter)

Adapted out

• Chris Redfield & Jill Valentine
• Ingrid

Considering

• Shulk & Lucina

I think while I'm here, I'll plug my latest Revised creation thread:

SmashBoards Mini-Recreates: Project X Zone 1 and 2 (Job #6: Tales Pair and Solo)

This is a much smaller scale compared to my other revision threads, as we're focusing entirely on the characters. A few ground rules: The series primarily focuses on characters who are humans or close enough to having human-like body shapes, so sadly, no Sonic or Klonoa or otherwise will be...

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