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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

LiveStudioAudience

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Dec 1, 2019
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There's something of a funny/sad irony to Smash 4 going out of its way to add new Nintendo franchises to the series... and then getting its biggest criticism roster wise for not including additional fighters from IP's already in (ie no Bandana Dee, Krystal, K Rool, Ridley, etc).

There really is no winning for the Smash team sometimes.
 
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osby

Smash Obsessed
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Apr 25, 2018
Messages
24,016
While I agree with the notion that we absolutely need more female characters in both Smash and video games in general, I think the fault lies with video games, not Smash. When adding iconic video game characters, first from Nintendo and then from third parties, it's just a fact that there are far more male characters. Even now, when I think of both characters I want and characters who deserve to get in, I think of a lot more male characters. And you can't exclude an iconic character just for being male, that would be silly.
I don't want Smash to exclude characters for being male, I just want it to do better than adding an existing character again but this time in a catsuit and excluding a character for not being male (Leaf in Brawl).
 
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Oracle Link

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Seriously TOTK Ganondorf Spoilers Already? I guess from what ive gleamed that every spoiler is now fair game Damn I mean i didnt really get spoiled (I mean i saw all memories and fought a certain Ganon related boss) but still do you know how long TOTK Is? And i mean iots the FINAL BOSS Why allow talk about it now i get allowing talk about Yunobo, Sidon, Tulin, Riju or Link but GAnondorf? Come On!
 

Opossum

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Seriously TOTK Ganondorf Spoilers Already? I guess from what ive gleamed that every spoiler is now fair game Damn I mean i didnt really get spoiled (I mean i saw all memories and fought a certain Ganon related boss) but still do you know how long TOTK Is? And i mean iots the FINAL BOSS Why allow talk about it now i get allowing talk about Yunobo, Sidon, Tulin, Riju or Link but GAnondorf? Come On!
Literally everything here has been properly tagged.
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
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Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,389
There's something of a funny/sad irony to Smash 4 going out of its way to add new Nintendo franchises to the series... and then getting its biggest criticism roster wise for not including additional fighters from IP's already in (ie no Bandana Dee, Krystal, K Rool, Ridley, etc).

There really is no winning for the Smash team sometimes.
In other news, scientists have confirmed that water is, indeed, wet.

Seriously, no wonder the Smash fandom has such a bad rep...
 

CapitaineCrash

Smash Champion
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Smash 4's base roster was a direct response to many of Brawl's criticisms. The biggest criticism when Brawl was that there were very few new first party franchises. Two of them were retro franchises (Kid Icarus and R.O,B.) and Wario, while unique, was still tied to Mario (and was often seen as a Mario character like Yoshi.). Pikmin was the only completely new first party franchise that was included that wasn't tied to the NES. People were expecting a lot more new franchises. In hindsight, it made sense, Melee had only given us three new franchises period (Ice Climber, Fire Emblem and Game & Watch), but people still felt like Smash wasn't including enough first party franchises. The only third parties being Sonic and Metal Gear also drew some ire. When people learned that third party characters were on the table, they went wild. Fan rosters had a ton of them, and even conservative rosters usually gave us around four or five third party franchises.

So, Smash 4 gave us...

  • Animal Crossing
  • Mega Man
  • Wii Fit
  • Punch Out!!
  • Mii
  • Pac-Man
  • Xenoblade Chronicles
  • Duck Hunt

That means we got 8 new franchises, 6 of which being first party franchises. Animal Crossing, Mii and Wii Fit were juggernauts. Punch Out!! had been requested for ages. Xenoblade Chronicles was a modern critical darling. Duck Hunt was the most financially successful and recognizable retro pick. And I don't even need to explain Mega Man and Pac-Man.
  • Street Fighter
  • Final Fantasy
  • Bayonetta
Then DLC went an added three more, making the total amount of franchises 11. Two giant franchises and a modern critical darling. Smash 4 introduced more franchises than any other Smash game. Even the original and Ultimate (after DLC) only introduced 10 each. So that's one major criticism directly addressed.

The characters from already represented franchises were great picks as well. Rosalina, Greninja, Palutena, Robin and Bowser Jr. were all popular characters then and remain popular characters. I think a lot of the issues some people took with them was that they were accused of being "flash in the pans" or "corporate picks that no one actually wanted." Almost ten years later and no one would claim that those five characters aren't popular and beloved in their franchises, at least objectively. People are just really bad at figuring out what's genuinely popular and what's a trend. And some of those negative first impressions can stick around. Lucina and Dark Pit got in by different circumstance, but they were still popular characters. The only potential dud of a unique character was Corrin, even then, they aren't hated nearly as much as some people would have you believe.

Smash 4 was a game of pushing boundaries and introducing new ideas. I keep seeing people state that Smash 4's roster was bad. I heavily disagree. I just think that some people felt left behind by a change in direction. One of the reasons Brawl's inclusions were so celebrated was because the roster focused on building up what was already there. Smash 4's didn't, it focused on bringing new things in. If you didn't feel particularly strong about the new franchises, it could seem lame. But that's where I recommend you try something new. Smash 4 got me to try Xenoblade Chronicles, Final Fantasy and Bayonetta. I love those games now. It was incredible to see Punch Out!! and Fire Emblem Awakening get a character because I loved those games. Without the Smash 4 additions, the roster would have a lot of major holes, and part of the reason that Ultimate's roster is so incredible is that it has the Smash 4 characters in it.

Gameplay is another matter, but that's a gameplay criticism, not a roster criticism. LMAO
Honestly I don't think that Sakurai was responding to any criticism when he made Smash 4 roster. First off, I very rarely saw (if ever) anyone criticizing Brawl for adding not enough new franchise at the time. Aside from Golden sun and third party after Snake's announcement, most of the most requested fighters at the time were from already represented franchises (such as Geno, Ridley, Krystal, Skull kid).

But even assuming that there was indeed a loud criticism for Brawl roster, I don't think that Smash 4 had more new franchises because of that criticism, it just happenned that in the Smash 4 era there was way more choice for new franchise. Brawl newcomers were mostly based on Gamecube, GBA and early DS games (like Ike, Pokémon trainer and Lucario, Wario based on WarioWare, Lucas, Olimar). Aside from Golden sun, there wasn't that much succesful new franchises for this generation by Nintendo. We also know that both Animal crossing and Miis were at least considered for Brawl, but Sakurai dismissed them because at the time he had no moveset idea. Smash 4 had way more new franchises to work with: Wii fit was too new for Brawl (similar to Pikmin with Melee), Xenoblade was brand new too, Punch-Out Wii also released after Brawl putting Mac as a front runner for a legacy pick, and both Animal crossing and Miis got added after getting dismissed last game. So the only one of the new franchises from Smash 4 that could have genuinely be in Brawl would have been Duck hunt, but since we already had 2 new retro franchises with ROB and Kid icarus there was probably no point to add him at the time.
 

Stratos

Smash Lord
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I wonder if they ever release an F-Zero movie in the future, will they have the characters as what they are as shown or will they make the same changes they did in the F-Zero anime series? What kind of changes am I writing about? For example Zoda when he debuted was a true Zolorkian, while in the anime he was shown to be an Earthling who mutated in the future. As for Deathborn and Don Genie (for him if I remember correctly), they were both transformations that Black Shadow had as camouflage.
 

PeridotGX

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I made a newcomer roster for an Ultimate sequel quite recently - with my goals being
  1. Please both Nintendo All-Stars and Celebration-of-Gaming-History fans (specifically by having an even newcomer split)
  2. Don't fully pander to fan demand and put on my own creative stamp
  3. Avoid completely wild/personal picks and still try to please fans either way
Absolutely not realistic, nor is it meant to be. I tried to fill what I felt were the biggest absences on both sides of the roster: Zelda characters for Nintendo, and adult/gritty Western IPs for 3rd parties.


An "even split" isn't really the direction I'd want a future Smash to go when handling 3Ps, I'd much prefer they choose one or the other between a NAS or COGH, but it makes for a fun challenge.
Finally, someone else talking about the Youngster idea! I genuinely think the idea of a trainer using a regional bird, bug, and rodent(/pig) would be a fun way to get a second trainer on the roster, but not be a complete retread of the Kanto Starter trainer. That being said, the choice of Pidgey, Zubat, and Rattata feels a little bit extremely boring. We can do a whole lot better with the idea! My idea for the rodent has always been one of Sentret or Bunnelby, as they have additional limbs to make their moveset more interesting. I would probably go with the former, as Kalos already has a solid rep but all Johto has is a clone. The bug... I've always thought Ariados would be fun, but I don't want to double up on Gen 2 - thankfully Paldea gave us a new, even weaker spider in Spidops. Lastly, the bird. Really any bird will do, but going by the three remaining gens without a character (Hoenn, Unova, and Galar) I feel like Swellow works best, because Corviknight feels a bit too strong for Youngster Joey and Swellow is way cooler than the other options (Unfeazent and the pre-evolutions).

Yes I did spend 15 minutes on this writeup on an idea that will never be added to the game, why do you ask?
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I wonder if they ever release an F-Zero movie in the future, will they have the characters as what they are as shown or will they make the same changes they did in the F-Zero anime series? What kind of changes am I writing about? For example Zoda when he debuted was a true Zolorkian, while in the anime he was shown to be an Earthling who mutated in the future. As for Deathborn and Don Genie (for him if I remember correctly), they were both transformations that Black Shadow had as camouflage.
Better chance than a new game, honestly.
 

Stratos

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I imagine if a Metroid movie comes out, it will show Samus meeting Ridley, the Metroids and the space pirates, let alone show Mother Brain. Whereas the second Metroid movie would show Metroid Prime and its transformation into Dark Samus, which of course we've already seen in the games, but I'm saying maybe the scripts do it differently there in the movies.
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
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Messages
3,500
I'd like to challenge everybody who takes issue with people speculating over specific character cuts to do the following.

Make a numbered list of all Smash fighters. Rank them in order of highest priority to keep, to lowest priority to keep. After all, we know that internal priority is something they have used, as it's gotten characters cut in the past, so there should be nothing wrong with that for the sake of speculation.

And the caveat is there can be no ties. No broad categories such as "these are the ones who'd never be cut." Rank them anyway. Order even the Original Eight in terms of priority.

And then take a look at who you consider the bottom twenty or so.
I don't have a problem with cut speculation and I'm bored so sure why not :p
Oh and I'm grouping echos with their origin fighter since they're not counted with a unique number in Smash and I'm going with the 82 number listing so :bowsette:. It should give a less boring cut list to look at than just copy paste clones when we're looking at the bottom 20.
Better pull out the extra credits for me teach!

1- :ultmario:
2- :ultlink:
3- :ultdk:
4- :ultsamus: :ultdarksamus:
5- :ultpikachu:
6- :ultkirby:
7- :ultfox:
8- :ultluigi:
9- :ultbowser:
10- :ultmarth: :ultlucina:
11- :ultinkling:
12- :ultvillager:
13- :ultpeach: :ultdaisy:
14- :ultyoshi:
15- :ultganondorf:
16- :ultzelda:
17- :ultfalcon:
18- :ultsonic:
19- :ultkingdedede:
20- :ultdiddy:
21- :ultridley:
22- :ultisabelle:
23- :ultryu: :ultken:
24- :ultwario:
25- :ultkrool:
26- :ultpacman:
27- :ultshulk:
28- :ultolimar:
29- :ultmegaman:
30- :ultrob:
31- :ultcloud:
32- :ultness:
33- :ultgreninja:
34- :ultrobin:
35- :ultfalco:
36- :ultsnake:
37- :ultgnw:
38- :ultlittlemac:
39- :ultsora:
40- :ultpit: :ultdarkpit:
41- :ultbanjokazooie:
42- :ultbyleth:
43- :ultlucario:
44- :ulthero:
45- :ultmewtwo:
46- :ultcharizard:
47- :ultmetaknight:
48- :ultsteve:
49- :ultbrawler:
50- :ultswordfighter:
51- :ultgunner:
52- :ultpyra:
53- :ultmythra:
54- :ultike:
55- :ultwolf:
56- :ultsimon: :ultrichter:
57- :ultrosalina:
58- :ultkazuya:
59- :ultminmin
60- :ultjoker:
61- :ultwiifittrainer:
62- :ult_terry:
63- :ultsquirtle:
64- :ultivysaur:
65- :ultbayonetta:
66- :ultcorrin:
67- :ultsephiroth:
68- :ultpalutena:
69- :ultbowserjr:
70- :ultsheik:
71- :ultincineroar:
72- :ultroy: :ultchrom:
73- :ultduckhunt:
74- :ulticeclimbers:
75- :ultjigglypuff:
76- :ultlucas:
77- :ulttoonlink:
78- :ultpiranha:
79- :ultyounglink:
80- :ultzss:
81- :ultdoc:
82-
:ultpichu:
 

Perkilator

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I know this has nothing to do with Smash (unless you guys want an excuse to talk about Star Fox), but remember Star Fox Grand Prix? Well, DYKG FINALLY managed to figure out what the whole deal with that was:

Fun fact: this video was narrated by Matt McMuscles, who recently did a Wha Happun on the GameCube.
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Fun fact: this video was narrated by Matt McMuscles, who recently did a Wha Happun on the GameCube.
Haven't seen that vid yet, but I do know Nintendo got burned so badly by the Gamecube that it feels like they're only NOW becoming comfortable acknowledging it again (and even then, we still haven't gotten Gamecube on NSO or anything like that)...
 

ShotoStar

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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I'd like to challenge everybody who takes issue with people speculating over specific character cuts to do the following.

Make a numbered list of all Smash fighters. Rank them in order of highest priority to keep, to lowest priority to keep. After all, we know that internal priority is something they have used, as it's gotten characters cut in the past, so there should be nothing wrong with that for the sake of speculation.

And the caveat is there can be no ties. No broad categories such as "these are the ones who'd never be cut." Rank them anyway. Order even the Original Eight in terms of priority.

And then take a look at who you consider the bottom twenty or so.
I will not group them together, nor will there be ties, but I do want to put them into tiers just cause I think it'd flow better that way.

TIER #01: MUST KEEPS
1. - Mario
2. - Link
3. - Pikachu
4. - Donkey Kong
5. - Marth
6. - Inkling
7. - Kirby
8. - Luigi
9. - Samus
10. - Yoshi
11. - Shulk
12. - Fox
13. - Captain Falcon
14. - Peach
15. - Bowser
16. - Mewtwo
17. - Robin
18. - Olimar


TIER #02: ALMOST GUARANTEED
19. - Zelda
20. - Ganondorf
21. - Charizard
22. - Duck Hunt
23. - King Dedede
24. - Meta Knight
25. - Rosalina
26. - Wario
27. - Pit
28. - Little Mac
29. - Ike
30. - Byleth
31. - Greninja
32. - Isabelle

TIER #03: LIKELY (unless massive cuts/a reboot happens)
33. - Villager
34. - Mii Fighters
35. - Mr. Game & Watch
36. - Wii Fit Trainer
37. - Ridley
38. - King K. Rool
39. - Diddy Kong
40. - Lucario
41. - Sonic The Hedgehog
42. - Pac-Man
43 - Ryu
44. - Mega Man
45. - Steve
46. - Aegis (Pyra/Mythra)
47. - Wolf
48. - Falco

TIER #04: 50/50
49. - R.O.B.
50. - Palutena
51. - Toon Link
52. - Cloud
53. - Hero
54. - Bayonetta
55. - Solid Snake
56. - Ice Climbers
57. - Min Min
58. - Lucas
59. - Bowser Jr.
60. - Joker
61. - Kazuya Mishima
62. - Incineroar
63. - Simon Belmont

TIER #05: UNLIKELY / BOTTOM TIER
64. - Dr. Mario
65. - Sheik
66. - Sora
67. - Sephiroth
68. - Jigglypuff
69. - Pokemon Trainer
70. - Dark Samus
71. - Chrom
72. - Dark Pit
73. - Banjo & Kazooie
74. - Roy
75. - Lucina
76. - Ken
77. - Zero Suit Samus
78. - Corrin
79. - Daisy
80. - Richter
81. - Young Link
82. - Pichu
83. - Piranha Plant
 

Delzethin

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I've been talking around and thinking about how...out of hand character speculation got during Ultimate's DLC. And I've realized something:

The thing that raised the biggest red flag for me? Was how a significant part of the community reacted to the jaw dropper reveals like Joker or Steve or Sephiroth (or Cloud near the end of Smash 4) by treating them not like a special occasion, but as a new base line for what every following newcomer was supposed to match or surpass.

Not every pick needs to set the Internet on fire. In fact, there were a lot of people excited for the lower key picks too! But it was like speculation ignored the nuance and kept chasing hype for the sake of hype.

Honestly, it felt like we were being dragged along by some really loud folks who only cared about watching the reveals and didn't give a damn about playing the actual game.
 
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RileyXY1

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
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I will not group them together, nor will there be ties, but I do want to put them into tiers just cause I think it'd flow better that way.

TIER #01: MUST KEEPS
1. - Mario
2. - Link
3. - Pikachu
4. - Donkey Kong
5. - Marth
6. - Inkling
7. - Kirby
8. - Luigi
9. - Samus
10. - Yoshi
11. - Shulk
12. - Fox
13. - Captain Falcon
14. - Peach
15. - Bowser
16. - Mewtwo
17. - Robin
18. - Olimar


TIER #02: ALMOST GUARANTEED
19. - Zelda
20. - Ganondorf
21. - Charizard
22. - Duck Hunt
23. - King Dedede
24. - Meta Knight
25. - Rosalina
26. - Wario
27. - Pit
28. - Little Mac
29. - Ike
30. - Byleth
31. - Greninja
32. - Isabelle

TIER #03: LIKELY (unless massive cuts/a reboot happens)
33. - Villager
34. - Mii Fighters
35. - Mr. Game & Watch
36. - Wii Fit Trainer
37. - Ridley
38. - King K. Rool
39. - Diddy Kong
40. - Lucario
41. - Sonic The Hedgehog
42. - Pac-Man
43 - Ryu
44. - Mega Man
45. - Steve
46. - Aegis (Pyra/Mythra)
47. - Wolf
48. - Falco

TIER #04: 50/50
49. - R.O.B.
50. - Palutena
51. - Toon Link
52. - Cloud
53. - Hero
54. - Bayonetta
55. - Solid Snake
56. - Ice Climbers
57. - Min Min
58. - Lucas
59. - Bowser Jr.
60. - Joker
61. - Kazuya Mishima
62. - Incineroar
63. - Simon Belmont

TIER #05: UNLIKELY / BOTTOM TIER
64. - Dr. Mario
65. - Sheik
66. - Sora
67. - Sephiroth
68. - Jigglypuff
69. - Pokemon Trainer
70. - Dark Samus
71. - Chrom
72. - Dark Pit
73. - Banjo & Kazooie
74. - Roy
75. - Lucina
76. - Ken
77. - Zero Suit Samus
78. - Corrin
79. - Daisy
80. - Richter
81. - Young Link
82. - Pichu
83. - Piranha Plant
You forgot :ultness:.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
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Messages
4,446
I think in some ways the Smash Ultimate speculation cycle, in being a sub-category of broader Switch hype, fell victim to the same issues as the latter; namely being that the major notable positive successes of both created expectations that some presentations would inevitably fail to live up to. It was the double edged sword of Nintendo's modern PR strategy; the same phenomenon that gave it/Smash huge press (buzz and reactions to Directs) would also easily create the conditions for notable backlashes (see the infamous response to certain Smash reveals or the early Partner Showcases).

I will say the disappointing presentations can be the ideal thing to actually get one away from the unhealthy mega hype that so often gets built up over time. Speaking personally Sakurai Presents Byleth was a very notable splash of cold water that allowed me to put my Smash expectations in check going forward and the semi-infamous farming sim oriented Nintendo Direct in Fall 2022 had me finally accept that the company's emphases with games were not mine, and that that was okay. Sometimes being underwhelmed is the better outcome because its the thing that gives you real perspective.
 
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Oracle Link

Smash Master
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Messages
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Location
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There's something of a funny/sad irony to Smash 4 going out of its way to add new Nintendo franchises to the series... and then getting its biggest criticism roster wise for not including additional fighters from IP's already in (ie no Bandana Dee, Krystal, K Rool, Ridley, etc).

There really is no winning for the Smash team sometimes.
The main issue is that the few first partys from existing franchises were all from the smae thre series we had 3 Fire 'Emblem Newcomers (Also brought back all old characters from it) we had 2 new mario characters with one having 8 unique costumes they also brought back dr mario and while there is only one pokemon newcomer pokemon already had so many characters
And for the franchises you mentioned everyone of them (and zelda) has a reason for people to be upset Kirby is heavily under appreciated, Bandee is huge and smash 4 exclusivly added stuff from the sakurai games, They cut Wolf which like WHY? he was the star fox villain in smash? (although i really think we dont need krystal as a char but i digress), And MEtroid and Dk have 0 Antagonists while being bigger series! if we had lets say Impa, BAndana Dee, Ridley,King k rool and kept wolf but cut Corrin, Roy, Rosalina, Quajutsu or something along those lines people would have been satisfied!
 

Opossum

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The main issue is that the few first partys from existing franchises were all from the smae thre series we had 3 Fire 'Emblem Newcomers (Also brought back all old characters from it) we had 2 new mario characters with one having 8 unique costumes they also brought back dr mario and while there is only one pokemon newcomer pokemon already had so many characters
And for the franchises you mentioned everyone of them (and zelda) has a reason for people to be upset Kirby is heavily under appreciated, Bandee is huge and smash 4 exclusivly added stuff from the sakurai games, They cut Wolf which like WHY? he was the star fox villain in smash? (although i really think we dont need krystal as a char but i digress), And MEtroid and Dk have 0 Antagonists while being bigger series! if we had lets say Impa, BAndana Dee, Ridley,King k rool and kept wolf but cut Corrin, Roy, Rosalina, Quajutsu or something along those lines people would have been satisfied!
Smash 4's roster was decided in 2012, only a single year after Return to Dream Land released. Dee was absolutely not a mainstay at that point. Even back during that era of speculation, he was considered a dark horse at best.

Wolf was a low-priority semi-clone when he was added to Brawl. That likely carried over to Smash 4, and Wolf's showing on the ballot likely surprised the team, to an extent, since most clone-ish characters don't have as warm a reception. As well, considering the sordid state of the Star Fox franchise at the time, it wasn't too huge a surprise in retrospect.

The team also clearly doesn't have a "villain quota" like the fanbase does. Sakurai is on record as still having been aware of Ridley's demand but skeptical of the implementation at that time, and K. Rool is another case of an audience and crew disconnect: they likely had no indication of K. Rool's popularity prior to the ballot. Again, they don't add characters for the sole purpose of upping the number of villains.

Roy was brought back because he was a fairly demanded veteran. And Rosalina was a very popular character among the Mario fanbase, even if that didn't translate, at the time, to direct Smash requests (as someone who wanted her at the time, it was more so a "not gonna happen but would be cool" type of thing, since Toad vs Bowser Jr. took up the majority of Mario newcomer discourse). Greninja ended up becoming one of the most popular Pokémon of all time.

This is also acting like Smash 4 didn't add a lot of very big fan requests when it absolutely did. The return of Mewtwo, alongside the additions of Mega Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Shulk, Bowser Jr., and to a lesser extent Pac-Man and Miis, were all highly requested characters. Villager was also considered a welcome addition that was only unexpected because of Sakurai dismissing him in Brawl.

Like, yeah, Ridley and K. Rool were two of the three biggest newcomer requests (alongside Mega Man, and right above Little Mac and Palutena), but it's asinine to act like Smash 4 rejected fan demand wholesale. And especially not while propping up the likes of Bandana Waddle Dee and Impa when they were nowhere near the top of the barrel as far as requests at the time.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,446
The K Rool example specifically has to be placed in the broader context of Nintendo around that time. The company either didn't grasp or didn't really think to take advantage of the DKC games' status for a long time and even in the early 2010's were only just getting back to a Country game after a decade of spin-offs/experiments that undersold in comparison to the GBA remakes. I don't think you can really hold the lack of knowledge about K Rool's popularity against Sakurai and the Smash team given that it seems very few significant figures at Nintendo seemed to be aware of it either.
 

CapitaineCrash

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I think a lot of fans either genuinely forgot or don't realise that the high majority of Smash characters are based on games that released very near or a bit before the project plans of each respective game:
-64: Every characters had a game on the N64 or a game the year before the project plan on the GB in the case of Pokémon, with the only exception being Ness
-Melee: Since Melee started before the Gamecube even released, most newcomers come again from N64 games or late GB games (Pokémons) or early GBA games (Roy). The only exception are Ice climbers, Marth and G&W
-Brawl: Most newcomers comes from Gamecube games, late GBA games or early DS games. The only exception are Pit and ROB
-Smash 4: Most newcomers comes from Wii games, late DS games or early 3ds games. The only exception is Duck hunt and Cloud (not counting Spin-off appearances)
-Ultimate: Most newcomers comes from Wii U and late 3ds games. The only exceptions are Simon, Richter, Dark Samus, K.Rool and Banjo (I would argue that Ultimate had a bit more exception because of the Wii U premature death there was way less choices).

My point is that before making post like "Why was X not added in this game?" look at the timing of the start of development and game release around this time. For example:
if we had lets say Impa, BAndana Dee, Ridley,King k rool and kept wolf but cut Corrin, Roy, Rosalina, Quajutsu or something along those lines people would have been satisfied!
Like Oposum said, Dee had nothing at that time aside from being the fourth characters of Return to dreamland. Ridley only had Other M which was super controversial among the fanbase. K. Rool also had nothing. And Impa had her Skyward sword appearances and I genunely never saw anyone ever wanting SS Impa in Smash (and before you ask, Smash 4 project plan was much before Hyrule warriors released).
 

dream1ng

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Yeah I don't think Smash 4 was structured the way it was based off Brawl criticism. Namely because criticism of certain missing characters who also didn't show up in 4 was far louder than criticism about the number of new series, which was double that of how many Melee added, which is really all the perspective that would've existed at the time.

Even in just the Brawl reveal trailer they had as many new franchises as Melee had in total.

Smash 4's roster was made to highlight the releases that happened in between the two games. The first-party roster, at least. The only first-party who wasn't tied to a recent game was Duck Hunt, who was the token surprise choice. There happened to be a good number of new franchises added, but if that was their priority, there were releases of Golden Sun, Starfy, Sin & Punishment, Chibi-Robo, etc. They didn't have a traditional retro rep, which could've added a new series.

There's something of a funny/sad irony to Smash 4 going out of its way to add new Nintendo franchises to the series... and then getting its biggest criticism roster wise for not including additional fighters from IP's already in (ie no Bandana Dee, Krystal, K Rool, Ridley, etc).

There really is no winning for the Smash team sometimes.
Well... not really though. Like, in broad strokes this is true, but it misrepresents the actual demand.

There was never some nebulous "more existing IP representation please", it was people requesting specific existing popular characters. Who had been popular before, during and after Smash 4. So it's not ironic those requests continued, and it's not ironic those characters not being included resulted in criticism.

It wasn't the fanbase flip-flopping halfway through Smash 4, deciding they didn't want new series, they actually wanted Ridley. People wanted Ridley since forever. When 4's roster was fully known, it's not like people went "hmm, we got AC and Wii Fit and Duck Hunt, etc. it's strange people are upset we didn't get K. Rool."

More over, the cries for popular characters were louder than cries for "new IP" ever was, in part because it wasn't usually clamoring for new IP, it was clamoring for specific characters from unrepresented IP. People may have wanted new IP as a general sentiment in the same way they may want more females or more villains, but the actual requests were for like Little Mac or Isaac or Shulk or someone.

If people were happy with just whatever new IP it was, WFT wouldn't have gotten the reaction she did. People are generalizing too far out and losing what people actually requested, which was usually a specific character, with a general, vague, not necessarily related "more IP would be nice" sentiment.
 

Hadokeyblade

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Kingdom Hearts has at least four games on handhelds, most of which were (or maybe still are) exclusives and offer Cloud/Seph/Sora positions.

I don't know enough about Joker.

What was Chief in? I had a few issues of Nintendo Power that claimed Halo: Reach was going to be a DS title, but that never happened AFAIK.

Edit: I also think the rule has more to do with franchises than specific characters. Cameos are a thin loophole, but Final Fantasy and SMT aren't exactly missing from the Nintendo library.
Joker only had one game on Nintendo when he joined smash.

Awkwardly when he was ANNOUNCED for smash said game wasnt released yet.

Master chief and Kratos are both playable in fortnite.

-Ultimate: Most newcomers comes from Wii U and late 3ds games. The only exceptions are Simon, Richter, Dark Samus, K.Rool and Banjo (I would argue that Ultimate had a bit more exception because of the Wii U premature death there was way less choices).
What about Sora and Terry?
 

Capybara Gaming

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Master chief and Kratos are both playable in fortnite.
Incorrect. A skin going over the default Looper is in Fortnite. Those are not the characters themselves as in their home series. If they were, they'd use their abilities. People need to stop using Fortnite to justify appearances.
 

Opossum

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Incorrect. A skin going over the default Looper is in Fortnite. Those are not the characters themselves as in their home series. If they were, they'd use their abilities. People need to stop using Fortnite to justify appearances.
I can promise you that nobody making the roster decisions cares about this sort of pedantic distinction.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Those skins are appearances of said character, which despite not being a requirement, fully count for all intents and purposes.

They had to be approved of to make said appearance on another console. This is why Samus couldn’t appear in Fortnite, due to being only allowed on a Nintendo console. That’s how the negotiations went. There’s no tangible difference with appearances existing. The only thing affected is licensing fees, as skins can easily cost less compared to a full sprite or model. Not inherently the case, depending the company too.

Master Chief’s first Nintendo appearance was via Minecraft anyway. How they appear is of little relevance. The fact it uses his design is why negotiations for said character happens.
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Incorrect. A skin going over the default Looper is in Fortnite. Those are not the characters themselves as in their home series. If they were, they'd use their abilities. People need to stop using Fortnite to justify appearances.
Hold up, does that mean that Alph isn’t in Smash?
 
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Ivander

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I wonder if HW: Age of Calamity with get TotK DLC...
I wish that game had even half the attention for a possibility of pulling a Mario Kart 8 Deluxe Booster Pass scenario, but it doesn't sadly. If anything, I just see a new TOTK Warriors-styled game with the potential to happen.

And at least Teba got to have his own moment to shine in AoC.
 
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