Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Lenidem]

Everyone is Here. Forever!

"Everyone stays here! Nobody moves!!"

 

[fogbadge]

Oh yeah totally, i dont think he'll ever be base game but he will totally be back.

and i'm gullible enough to but him each time

 

[Aligo]

"Everyone stays here! Nobody moves!!"

Goodness, sounds like a bus stop in the countryside.

 

[fogbadge]

Goodness, sounds like a bus stop in the countryside.

which countryside?

 

[Nabbitfan730]

what the part about sakurai not rejecting things that came after his games? to which i replied the stages and assist trophies are all from his era?

That doesn't change anything i've said. I didn't agree there was hint of bias but isn't purposely leaving them out. Modern Kirby has representation regardless from Final Smash, Music and Spirits.

Oh, cool. So they must not be bosses in basically every Kirby game that comes out then?

Wait, what's that? They ARE? In every single Kirby game they find an excuse to be trying to kill Kirby again? Weird. It's almost like the way the series is designed, it's villains become friends at the end, but constantly go back to being villains.

Great news for Bowser. I'll let him know he's not a villain because he goes go-karting in between bouts of kidnapping.

You're not writing a college dissertation here. That's a semantic argument when discussing cartoon video game characters.

Two of those go on to become Star Allies. So by the above argument, they aren't villains anymore.

I think you must have been playing Keeby instead of Kirby because if you actually played the latter you would know that Dedede and Meta Knight have not once actively tried to Kill Kirby nor has been their main goal at all in any of the games.

How does Kirby being a "cartoon video game characters" somehow make accurate descriptions "semantic"?

Also Bowser is actually portrayed as Villain more times than not so once again False Equivalence.

 

[HyperSomari64]

How does Kirby being a "cartoon video game characters"

Is Kirby even part of the Scrimbo spectrum?

 

[fogbadge]

That doesn't change anything i've said. I didn't agree there was hint of bias but isn't purposely leaving them out. Modern Kirby has representation regardless from Final Smash, Music and Spirits.

I’d call rejecting one stage in favour of the other is purposefully leaving it out

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I'm curious, what third party characters do you think will return from Ultimate as well as series past? I'm curious to know what the forum thinks

Anyone that isn't Sonic, Mega Man, Ryu, Ken, Pac-Man, Banjo, Bayo and Steve are 80% getting cut.

Looking at you Square.

Is Kirby even part of the Scrimbo spectrum?

I say so. His design is quite orthodox, cartoony and has that mascot appeal. Still don't get how that somehow nullifies moral alignments but i seen weird arguments before.

 

[fogbadge]

Anyone that isn't Sonic, Mega Man, Ryu, Ken, Pac-Man, Banjo, Bayo and Steve are 80% getting cut.

Looking at you Square.

why would se be cut and not steve?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

With Kirby honestly I suspect its a case of both Sakurai and Nintendo simply not having strong interest in including that many later elements from Kirby. Not from dislike or even a sense that they don't have appeal, just that other franchises simply have more of their attention. Its a bit like the dynamic with Sonic in that way; no active dislike of it, but no real drive to incorporate characters/stages/songs/etc beyond what they already have.

 

[fogbadge]

With Kirby honestly I suspect its a case of both Sakurai and Nintendo simply not having strong interest in including that many later elements from Kirby. Not from dislike or even a sense that they don't have appeal, just that other franchises simply have more of their attention. Its a bit like the dynamic with Sonic in that way; no active dislike of it, but no real drive to incorporate characters/stages/songs/etc beyond what they already have.

when I say sakurais bias I don’t mean he’s dislikes things. I mean he’s playing favourites

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I'm not sure Xenoblade 3 is seen as a huge stepping stone for the franchise.

There's been in upward trend in terms of sales and recognition, but I don't think any of them have received an "Awakening" style moment yet.

I don't think it need a "Awakening moment" to have a new character. Xenoblade 3 has reached huge critical acclaim to the point of being nominated goty for the Game awards, and imo this alone make it worthy of a Smash character. To be honest if Xeno 2 could get a character, I don't see why 3 couldn't.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I think it's fair for Xenoblade to get one new character per Smash game if it maintains it's release pace
well my most wanted character is infamous for his series poor timing so what do I know lol

 

[Aligo]

which countryside?

To be honest every countryside though the one in particular is a random bit of the UK. Had to wait two and a half hours for that bus.

Also one day I hope more series are represented. I don't think much of XC3 because the most prominent options don't have much to offer in contrast to characters from the rest of the series, XCX included, and have already lost plot relevance with the shift in focus of the DLC story.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't think it need a "Awakening moment" to have a new character. Xenoblade 3 has reached huge critical acclaim to the point of being nominated goty for the Game awards, and imo this alone make it worthy of a Smash character. To be honest if Xeno 2 could get a character, I don't see why 3 couldn't.

Oh I agree. I just don't think 3's reception was that much better than 2's.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'm not a Xenoblade player so this is all coming from an outsider, but it felt like the series was gradually gaining acceptance with each release.

Xenoblade 1 carved out strong niche support after Operation Rainfall, X managed some surprisingly strong hype given the weaker install base of the Wii U, 2 took the series into the stratosphere (albeit with controversy with many critics and fans over it being too fanservicey), 1 remaster won over many XC2 skeptics, and 3 essentially gave it the mix of more universal critical and commercial success it had been shooting for.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I'm not a Xenoblade player so this is all coming from an outsider, but it felt like the series was gradually gaining acceptance with each release.

Xenoblade 1 carved out strong niche support after Operation Rainfall, X managed some surprisingly strong hype given the weaker install base of the Wii U, 2 took the series into the stratosphere (albeit with controversy with many critics and fans over it being too fanservicey), 1 remaster won over many XC2 skeptics, and 3 essentially gave it the mix of more universal critical and commercial success it had been shooting for.

And to think the series was really niche since it's debut on PS1, it really got places once Nintendo took over.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Dedede and Meta Knight have not once actively tried to Kill Kirby nor has been their main goal at all in any of the games.

What does their "main goal" matter? They're still stabbing him with swords and smashing him with hammers.

They are cartoon villains for 5-year-olds. But villains just the same.

 

[HyperSomari64]

They are cartoon villains for 5-year-olds

Spoiler: old-*** but beloved Kirby game for the 64

Sorry to sound a lil' puritan, but....
Would you consider **** like Zero Two a villain for 5-years-olds!?

 

[Laniv]

What does their "main goal" matter? They're still stabbing him with swords and smashing him with hammers.

They are cartoon villains for 5-year-olds. But villains just the same.

Every gym leader in the Pokémon games battle the player, regardless of their main goal. Thus, every gym leader in the series is a villain.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Every gym leader in the Pokémon games battle the player, regardless of their main goal. Thus, every gym leader in the series is a villain.

I knew we couldn't trust Iono.

I mean, look at her.

Pure unrivaled evil!

 

[Aaayei]

Every gym leader in the Pokémon games battle the player, regardless of their main goal. Thus, every gym leader in the series is a villain.

By this logic, a lot of the npc trainers are villians too.

Makes sense to me. You can't convince me that Youngster Joey isn't a criminal mastermind.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

By this logic, a lot of the npc trainers are villians too.

Makes sense to me. You can't convince me that Youngster Joey isn't a criminal mastermind.

It makes sense when you think about it.

Youngster Joey wouldn't stop calling because he was trying to distract you from your mission of defeating Team Rocket.

After Team Rocket's fall, he calls you just to ruin your day.

He's a petty monster!

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Every gym leader in the Pokémon games battle the player, regardless of their main goal. Thus, every gym leader in the series is a villain.

Nobody tell this guy about Giovanii and Sabrina.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Would you consider **** like Zero Two a villain for 5-years-olds!?

Yep! Sometimes, Nintendo just likes giving kids nightmares. Lookin' at you Giygas!

Every gym leader in the Pokémon games battle the player, regardless of their main goal. Thus, every gym leader in the series is a villain.

I mean, arguably, every Pokemon trainer in the entire franchise is a glorified dogfighter. They're technically all villains.

 

[fogbadge]

Also one day I hope more series are represented. I don't think much of XC3 because the most prominent options don't have much to offer in contrast to characters from the rest of the series, XCX included, and have already lost plot relevance with the shift in focus of the DLC story.

so like every jrpg then

 

[Megadoomer]

why would se be cut and not steve?

I'm guessing that, at least for the base game, Square-Enix seems to be difficult to work with. (either that, or a bunch of their properties have unusual legal issues that no other company has to deal with)

From what's been said, "Everyone Is Here" almost didn't happen, and Square-Enix only gave the barest possible minimum for Ultimate's base game (two songs, with neither of them being remixes, and no artwork until DLC), so they're the likely culprit. It wasn't until Sephiroth's DLC that Final Fantasy got more spirits beyond Cloud, artwork for Cloud's spirit, and a bunch of songs that probably should have been in the base game.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm guessing that, at least for the base game, Square-Enix seems to be difficult to work with. (either that, or a bunch of their properties have unusual legal issues that no other company has to deal with)

From what's been said, "Everyone Is Here" almost didn't happen, and Square-Enix only gave the barest possible minimum for Ultimate's base game (two songs, with neither of them being remixes, and no artwork until DLC), so they're the likely culprit. It wasn't until Sephiroth's DLC that Final Fantasy got more spirits beyond Cloud, artwork for Cloud's spirit, and a bunch of songs that probably should have been in the base game.

i think it’s more likely that they were using the same license for both 4 and ultimate. by the time cloud was added into 4 the had already began planning ultimate so odds are they licensed him for two games hence why there was no extra stuff. Steve meanwhile took five years to get into smash. he’s definitely a licensing nightmare

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I think they'll at least try to get Cloud and Hero back, both are just to huge to ignore. If they can only get one, I think Hero is the most likely to come back.

In term of third party cuts, I think that Snake could be cut because Metal gear is probably not going to get any new game anytime soon and Snake being cut in Smash 4 kind of prove that he's not considered that important for Sakurai.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I'm guessing that, at least for the base game, Square-Enix seems to be difficult to work with. (either that, or a bunch of their properties have unusual legal issues that no other company has to deal with)

From what's been said, "Everyone Is Here" almost didn't happen, and Square-Enix only gave the barest possible minimum for Ultimate's base game (two songs, with neither of them being remixes, and no artwork until DLC), so they're the likely culprit. It wasn't until Sephiroth's DLC that Final Fantasy got more spirits beyond Cloud, artwork for Cloud's spirit, and a bunch of songs that probably should have been in the base game.

From my understanding it's definitely the latter.

Dragon quest for example seems pretty easyto license aside from the music which was historically the hardest part of the IP to get a hold of. That's why the music list is so small.

 

[Geno Boost]

i think it’s more likely that they were using the same license for both 4 and ultimate. by the time cloud was added into 4 the had already began planning ultimate so odds are they licensed him for two games hence why there was no extra stuff. Steve meanwhile took five years to get into smash. he’s definitely a licensing nightmare

is it licensing nightmare for Steve or coding nightmare and concept though?
as far as i remember Microsoft were open with having their characters in smash and its how we got Banjo but for sure implementing Steve is pretty much complicated

 

[fogbadge]

is it licensing nightmare for Steve or coding nightmare and concept though?
as far as i remember Microsoft were open with having their characters in smash and its how we got Banjo but for sure implementing Steve is pretty much complicated

five years is still the amount of time it took. be it licensing or coding steve was a difficult character to include

 

[Oracle Link]

I don't remember seeing genuine hate for a 4th Kirby rep. I agree that Bandana dee was more "controversial" because some people see him as too generic, but Marx, Magolor and to some extent Adeleine were always fairly popular.

Yeah i guess but there were some voices who said that kirby is fine as it is...
While wishing for even more Mario Chars and Pokemon!

Who you could personally picks?

Costumes are written after the character:
Kirby (Fighters Shadow Kirby)
Dedede (King D Mind)
Meta Knight (Morpho Knight)
Bandana Waddle Dee (Waddle Dee and Waddle Doo)
Magolor

Spoiler: Kirbys return to dreamland

Traitor Magolor

Dark Matter

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I'm guessing that, at least for the base game, Square-Enix seems to be difficult to work with. (either that, or a bunch of their properties have unusual legal issues that no other company has to deal with)

From what's been said, "Everyone Is Here" almost didn't happen, and Square-Enix only gave the barest possible minimum for Ultimate's base game (two songs, with neither of them being remixes, and no artwork until DLC), so they're the likely culprit. It wasn't until Sephiroth's DLC that Final Fantasy got more spirits beyond Cloud, artwork for Cloud's spirit, and a bunch of songs that probably should have been in the base game.

They literally explained this in Sephiroth’s presentation. The big reason FFVII had lacking content was the fact FFVII has Byzantine ownership rights in regards to its music. We also know Sephiroth was being planned at least since 2017, well before there was any useable content from the remake. It’s likely they just decided at that point to hold over the content like Spirits for Sephiroth’s pack. Heck, Nintendo is the company that chose Hero and Sephiroth. If square was truly that hard to work with, I doubt square would have been on their shortlist twice. Would I have liked it if FFVII had more than two songs and spirits in the bass game? Absolutely, but the image of square being some miserly company that almost held Cloud back is just super outdated.
——————
To be honest, I think third party cuts in general are just unlikely. We have only had it happen once with Snake. Early 2010s Konami was in a rough spot and likely had negotiations break down. Cuts in general are super rare to begin with, and this is the only time it’s happened to a third party. Almost all of the cuts we have seen were low priority vets that were planned at some point or cut due to technical issues with the 3DS. Third parties would not be low priority due to how their licensing works, so you would need a breakdown in relations like what happened with Konami.

Nintendo themselves seem to really like the idea of third parties in Smash. They had executive control over Ultimate’s DLC. Out of our 12 downloadable characters (lumping in Aegis since it was one pack), 2/3 were third party. Nintendo seems very invested in the idea that Smash is gamings greatest celebration. Sakurai has had that mentality as well for a while. Unless both of them have a fundamental shift in philosophy, we won’t see that many third party cuts. Smash rarely cuts characters, and Nintendo likes third parties. They know they sell. Even if they have to license everything, it’s easier to license these characters now than before. They already have contracts with all those companies for these character licenses. Sure, licensing everyone is expensive, but smash prints money and all these companies want in on that gravy train. I doubt Nintendo will be looking towards cutting third parties.

I also doubt any of these companies would outright want to leave Smash at this point. Smash prints money and they know they are licensing their characters to a trustworthy handler. Ultimate was the best selling fighting game ever. It would take Nintendo either not wanting to work with them or a breakdown of relations for cuts to happen for a normal next Smash. If the roster is hard rebooted and we see a thanos snap sure, but that is highly unlikely with modern Nintendo.

Honestly the only real way I think we would see third party cuts besides a breakdown in relations is through buyouts. Depending on who buys a company or could hurt relations going forward. If Sony bought Konami, we wouldn’t see Snake or the Belmonts most likely for example. Speculation on the corporate politics of companies and potential bailouts though is just a waste of time. We won’t know who or what is a buyout target unless the signs are super obvious.

Even if we did not get EiH 2.0, I doubt Smash would see a thanos snap for third parties. We would probably see cuts for similar reasons to why we saw them in Brawl or 4: some characters just aren’t as much of a priority. Some people might want Smash to go back to a “Nintendo All Stars game”, but that is just not going to happen. For starters, that era never really existed, even as far back as the Melee era third parties in Smash were considered. Even if that era did exist, it’s long gone by now. The genie has been out of the bottle for years now. This first party elitism is very rare outside of Smashboards. Smashboards attracts a hyper niche audience and is far from a representative sample. Most of the community in the wild like Ultimate and like third parties. I doubt that with how Nintendo, Sakurai, and the current third parties are right now third party cuts are even that likely. More likely than not, the lions share of our third parties will return.

 

[Wonder Smash]

You know, coming to think of it, it's very strange that Lololo & Lalala didn't even get spirits in Ultimate. What's up with that?

I think they'll at least try to get Cloud and Hero back, both are just to huge to ignore. If they can only get one, I think Hero is the most likely to come back.

In term of third party cuts, I think that Snake could be cut because Metal gear is probably not going to get any new game anytime soon and Snake being cut in Smash 4 kind of prove that he's not considered that important for Sakurai.

If that was the case, they wouldn't have bothered bringing him back for Ultimate.

In the end, I don't think it matters whether or not a series get a new game anytime soon. It's obvious that Snake is well-liked among the Smash Bros fanbase. Plus, I'm sure Sakurai's friend, Kojima, would love to see Snake return to Smash.

 

[Sucumbio]

... Snake being cut in Smash 4 kind of prove that he's not considered that important for Sakurai.

Not really. It just proves that a 3rd party character isn't a lock just because they were in a previous game. Technically, Sakurai could have fought tooth and nail to get him in 4 and couldn't for whatever reason (like Konami saying no, or Nintendo saying no, etc.)

 

[CapitaineCrash]

If that was the case, they wouldn't have bothered bringing him back for Ultimate.

In the end, I don't think it matters whether or not a series get a new game anytime soon. It's obvious that Snake is well-liked among the Smash Bros fanbase. Plus, I'm sure Sakurai's friend, Kojima, would love to see Snake return to Smash.

Well Ultimate had the Everyone is here concept so they didn't have a choice to bring him. It's also the same reason why we have 3 Link in the game. Besides, Kojima is not at Konami anymore so I doubt he has anything to say about Snake in Smash.

Not really. It just proves that a 3rd party character isn't a lock just because they were in a previous game. Technically, Sakurai could have fought tooth and nail to get him in 4 and couldn't for whatever reason (like Konami saying no, or Nintendo saying no, etc.)

Well Kojima wanted him according to a Twitch interview so my guess is that Sakurai just didn't approach him at all to bring him back for Smash 4.

 

[Perkilator]

…Snake being cut in Smash 4 kind of prove that he's not considered that important for Sakurai.

I think that’s more to do with Sm4sh having a more kid-friendly tone, along with Konami being Konami at the time.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Technically, Sakurai could have fought tooth and nail to get him in 4 and couldn't for whatever reason (like Konami saying no, or Nintendo saying no, etc.)

Konami never says no, as long as you've got 10 bucks.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Well Ultimate had the Everyone is here concept so they didn't have a choice to bring him. It's also the same reason why we have 3 Link in the game. Besides, Kojima is not at Konami anymore so I doubt he has anything to say about Snake in Smash.

They definitely had a choice. They could have very well pass up on characters like Snake again if they felt that he wasn't relevant enough for them anymore and therefore, not go with the whole "Everyone is here" concept.

But like I said, he's a popular character among the Smash fanbase, and he's an iconic video game character, having popularized the stealth genre. So whatever reason they didn't get Snake in Smash 4, it's highly doubtful that it's because they didn't think he was important to them anymore. A character from a series of that kind of status is always important.

Also, it's not a matter of Kojima being with Konami. Snake is still his creation and he was the one who personally requested for him.