Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[NotGenerico]

There's something that was discovered months ago that makes me think Sakurai's next game is Smash Bros. Back in May, a Famiboards user discovered a Linkedin account of someone working at Bandai Namco.

https://famiboards.com/threads/nintendo-first-party-software-development-st-nintendo-party-superstars.114/page-166#post-1085340

2001/7 - 2002/3
· [GC] SUPER SMASHBROS. Melee (Localize)

2002/4 - 2002/6
· [GC] 2D Action Prototype (Player Character & Enemy Character / Mode). - First Kirby Demo Shown at E3

2002/7 - 2003/2
· [GC] Kirby's AIR RIDE Prototype (Level Design / Mode)

2003/3 - 2003/8
· [GC] Kirby's AIR RIDE (Enemy Character / Mode / Localization)

2003/9 - 2005/5
· [GC] 2D Action Prototype (Player Character & Enemy Character / Level Design / Mode) - Second Kirby Game Hand Drawn

2005/5 - 2006/9
· [Wii] 3D Action Race Prototype (Player Character & Enemy Character / Mode)
· [Wii] 3D Action Prototype (Player Character & Enemy Character) - Third Kirby Game Demo became Blowout Blast

2007/12 - 2008/11
· [Wii] WE Ski & SNOWBOARD (UI / System / Localization)

2008/12 - 2011/10
· [Wii] GO VACATION (Direction / Mode / UI / System / Localization)

2012/3 - 2014/11
· [3DS] SUPER SMASH BROS. for Nintendo 3DS (Field Smash Mode)
· [Wii U] SUPER SMASH BROS. for Wii U (UI / System / Localization)

2014/12 - 2016/1
· [3DS] SUPER SMASH BROS. for Nintendo 3DS (DLC & Update Development Management)
· [Wii U] SUPER SMASH BROS. for Wii U (same as above)

2016/1 - 2018/5
· [Switch] GO VACATION (Direction / Development management and subcontract management at 4 domestic and overseas locations)

2018/6 - 2018/11
· [Switch] SUPER SMASH BROS. ULTIMATE (Development management)


2018/12 - 2021/9 [Secondment to Bandai Namco Online]
・[PC] [Steam] [PS4/5] [XBOne/X/S] GUNDAM EVOLUTION (development management)

2021/10 -Currently
・Unreleased title (-)
2023/1 - 2023/9

・[Steam] [PS5] [XBX/S] Tekken 8 (Online mode help)

This person has worked with Sakurai on Melee, Kirby's Air Ride, Smash 4 and Ultimate. He's been mostly working as a Development Manager. He had this position for Smash 4's DLC as well as Ultimate. The thing that caught my eye is that he's been working on a mysterious title since October 2021. That's exactly when Sora was released. Isn't it fishy that the Development Manager of the last two Smash games began working on a new game at the exact time as Sakurai said he began planning for his next game?

This could be nothing, but I thought it'd be something some people may find interesting.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

There's something that was discovered months ago that makes me think Sakurai's next game is Smash Bros. Back in May, a Famiboards user discovered a Linkedin account of someone working at Bandai Namco.

https://famiboards.com/threads/nintendo-first-party-software-development-st-nintendo-party-superstars.114/page-166#post-1085340

This person has worked with Sakurai on Melee, Kirby's Air Ride, Smash 4 and Ultimate. He's been mostly working as a Development Manager. He had this position for Smash 4's DLC as well as Ultimate. The thing that caught my eye is that he's been working on a mysterious title since October 2021. That's exactly when Sora was released. Isn't it fishy that the Development Manager of the last two Smash games began working on a new game at the exact time as Sakurai said he began planning for his next game?

This could be nothing, but I thought it'd be something some people may find interesting.

That IS a rather interesting find. I mean, it could be for something else, but it is fishy, nonetheless.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I know the casual audience greatly dwarfs the competitive side of smash, but so does every other fighting game; street fighter has sold millions off people that don't touch the competitive side of things.

But in that game and every other game the online multiplayer and local tournament options are much better! Maybe rollback might be a big resource drain on the game but there's still a lot of things that the game could strive to accomplish in terms of treating the game as something serious to play. Smash is my least favorite big fighting game to learn rn (partially because they refuse to balance patch and partially because of other stuff), and that sucks because of how unique it is in its field.

Maybe I'm the only one in this thread of this opinion, but if smash continues to lag behind the rest of fighting games then my hype for it will definitely wane as well. There are things that elevate the crossover in my mind beyond just being a video game themed Fortnite, and the gameplay having its own meat to enjoy in the fgc is chief among them.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

We really are scraping the barrel here. Smash Speculation is truly back.

I don't think this grounds for a new Smash. This could just mean this person has good relationship with Sakurai and has worked on other abeit more niche titles for Nintendo would fit well for Kid Icarus Remake/Sequel or even a new Star Fox

 

[Gorgonzales]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Pour one out for those speculating about Multiversus.

Dang shame, but everything about it was so consistently bungled. I'd love to see smash get some kind of competition to influence it... But in some ways this particular go at it was doomed from the start. RIP.

All my homies hate WB's corporate greed.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

We really are scraping the barrel here. Smash Speculation is truly back.

I don't think this grounds for a new Smash. This could just mean this person has good relationship with Sakurai and has worked on other abeit more niche titles for Nintendo would fit well for Kid Icarus Remake/Sequel or even a new Star Fox

That is very much possible.

I was also thinking, all about what NotGenerico said, I was wondering; why would Sakurai pitch a game idea that is Smash Bros. and nothing else at this rate, anyway? I mean, Smash is said to be Sakurai's baby, but even guys like him deserve a break every now and then, and I thought he'd be free to do something else right about now.

Anyhow, about possibly pitching a Smash Bros. game as an idea, that would be too easy, which means with a lot of things already there, Sakurai would not have to do that much to make such a new game. It would be a completely different story with an all new kind of game, would it? I am not complaining or saying there is something wrong, but there is something I could not help but notice about this.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I know the casual audience greatly dwarfs the competitive side of smash, but so does every other fighting game; street fighter has sold millions off people that don't touch the competitive side of things.

But in that game and every other game the online multiplayer and local tournament options are much better! Maybe rollback might be a big resource drain on the game but there's still a lot of things that the game could strive to accomplish in terms of treating the game as something serious to play. Smash is my least favorite big fighting game to learn rn (partially because they refuse to balance patch and partially because of other stuff), and that sucks because of how unique it is in its field.

Maybe I'm the only one in this thread of this opinion, but if smash continues to lag behind the rest of fighting games then my hype for it will definitely wane as well. There are things that elevate the crossover in my mind beyond just being a video game themed Fortnite, and the gameplay having its own meat to enjoy in the fgc is chief among them.

Ngl, this argument sounds you eating an orange and complaining it isn't an apple.

Smash isn't perfect. Rollback would a good addition to online for Smash but why does Smash have to take itself seriously for a fringe demographic like FGC just because shares very few elements with other games in the scene.

Smash is a party game with fighting game elements(Don't say platform fighter, terrible term), not a fully traditional fighter like SF. Why change that?

( which means would have more common game-wise with Fortnite but i doubt that's what you meant)

 

[Guynamednelson]

Ngl, this argument sounds you eating an orange and complaining it isn't an apple.

Smash isn't perfect. Rollback would a good addition to online for Smash but why does Smash have to take itself seriously for a fringe demographic like FGC just because shares very few elements with other games in the scene.

Smash is a party game with fighting game elements(Don't say platform fighter, terrible term), not a fully traditional fighter like SF. Why change that?

( which means would have more common game-wise with Fortnite but i doubt that's what you meant)

Having standards on what the netcode should be isn't going to stop anyone from playing 8-player Smashes with items on high on Great Cave Offensive.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I don't think Shantae's decreased in popularity as much as her status as a standout indie platformer/exploration title is a little less unique these days with the rise of similar indie titles in the genre. Even in the overly narrow superlative of "animal transformation oriented Metroidvanias" you can find games like Monster Boy & the Cursed Kingdom which have also stood out.

Going tbh and say that I originally read this as "anime transformation oriented Metroidvanias" and was like

Shantae does have an anime-esque art style so...

 

[Dukefire]

We really are scraping the barrel here. Smash Speculation is truly back.

I don't think this grounds for a new Smash. This could just mean this person has good relationship with Sakurai and has worked on other abeit more niche titles for Nintendo would fit well for Kid Icarus Remake/Sequel or even a new Star Fox

Until we official news that Super Smash Bros is returning, the community is running on stale energy that became stagnant since Ultimate's lifecycle has ended 4 years ago....

Heck, Sakurai's next project may not be smash bros since his answer was ambiguous.

Shantae does have an anime-esque art style so..

I do remember that her outfit was something the community used to go against her. Only to be countered with Krystal's reveal in Ultimate as an Assist Trophy and Pyra/Mythra's outfit be edited to fit the ratings.

 

[Louie G.]

"Good online" should be important to casual players too - if my intention is just to jerk around with some friends on custom stages, I'd still prefer not to be hit with like 20 seconds of random lag. It's not fun regardless of the kind of game you're playing and any kind of player would like to have as much control over their character in a competitive, movement based game as they can.

And I don't even mean competitive like in an FGC sense, I mean it in a "me versus you" sense. Smash is a game where you compete against other players. You're playing to win, even if you're playing a zany all items on in Palutena's Temple match. Input delay can make or break your success in a game like Mario Party or Mario Kart too, so if implementing something like rollback would make the experience smoother for everyone then there's no downside whatsoever. Remove the connotation with competitive fighting games and I don't see why it's anything but a great thing.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I do remember that her outfit was something the community used to go against her. Only to be countered with Krystal's reveal in Ultimate as an Assist Trophy and Pyra/Mythra's outfit be edited to fit the ratings.

Also just, Bayonetta's entire existence in Smash really...

 

[Dukefire]

Also just, Bayonetta's entire existence in Smash really...

Slipped my mind. Forgot that Bayonetta is from an Mature rating game. As her literal outfit is HER HAIR that is used for summons and certain attacks....Plus, her nature while fighting is like a stripper and torture in her home series, which they had to tone it down.

I need to finish Bayonetta 2...........and master THE COMBOS

Also, Bayonetta 3's outfit might be a good cosmedic for the next game since her home series has concluded.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Mario Kart

Speaking of which

Mario Kart's devs don't think "b-but this is a PARTY GAME with RACING ELEMENTS" as an excuse to have ****ty netcode. 8 Deluxe's netcode is way better than SSBU's and that's with 12 players and random items flying everywhere.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Having standards on what the netcode should be isn't going to stop anyone from playing 8-player Smashes with items on high on Great Cave Offensive.

Never said otherwise. Literally said Rollback would be good addition.

Feel like some should actually read what i wrote

 

[Dukefire]

Speaking of which

Mario Kart's devs don't think "b-but this is a PARTY GAME with RACING ELEMENTS" as an excuse to have ****ty netcode. 8 Deluxe's netcode is way better than SSBU's and that's with 12 players and random items flying everywhere.

I think it has to also include that compared to smash bros, racing isn't that demanding since it doesn't need too much input. Smash Bros, has a lot of assets utilizing like the stage, background, and characters with their various moves from players.

Though, I think the sheer amount of attention to making stages, characters and music with details was what consumed a lot of the manpower during Smash Bros development.
Which is possible that the team didn't give the netcode a proper test to find adjustments during the entire starting development.

 

[smashkirby]

I mean, Ult. already did away with stage unlocks but I agree with the sentiment.

FWIW, I think stage unlocks will be a thing again next game. Which actually leads into my next message...

I'd prefer going back to the old style of unlock methods too, but I'd much prefer they scale it back compared to Ultimate. A dozen or two dozen max unlockable fighters is more than enough imo.

You know, I've seen a lot of folks on here talk about how Ultimate's method of unlocking stuff was 'excessive', and that they're worried that future Smash games will be the same. Personally, I... really don't see that happening, ESPECIALLY if the roster gets scaled down.

Like, this is something I only see happening for "Everyone Is Here"-type Smash games, honestly. On that note, same goes for the stages.

Oh, I'm not talking about Peach, I do mean the nameless rando race queens. Though, now that you put the idea in my head, I think it'd be fun if the Bros. got their 3D Hot Rally costumes and they improvised some Famicom themed race queen costumes for the princesses. Maybe give something related to F-1 to Samus, Bowser, Pit, DK and Link too. I don't think I missed anyone else who cameos (aside from Toad but he's still in Neutral Special jail.)

Oh, you meant THEM! Well, I always say that I LOVE when Smash Bros. gets wild and wacky with its character choices, and the unnamed race queens from F-1 Race definitely fall into that category.

That said though, it WOULD be interesting to see Mario Kart (or even Smash Bros., if they were so inclined) give the Mario Bros. (and perhaps Wario and Waluigi) 3D Hot Rally outfits and the princesses (and Pauline) race queen costumes. Heck, isn't the Monster appearing in MK9 as a useable vehicle?

I mean, it's not really that surprising. RR fans did vote for it after all. She was only created to replace Reiko, so with her back, she doesn't really have that role to fill anymore. If they wanted to add another race queen, they really should have just added her on top of Reiko. People would have been more accepting of Ai that way.

I mean, I understand that... it's just that... well, yeah. You pretty much summed it up for me. Namco could have (and probably should have; it's not like multiple race queens aren't a thing, after all) had both Reiko AND Ai serve as co-race queen mascots for the Ridge Racer series.

You know... with how Ridge Racer 64 has come to the NSO, I wonder if a new Ridge Racer might be in the works for Switch 2?

 

[Nabbitfan730]

For Rollback to work, it's just needs to made with the game in mind.

Ultimate was already made with delay so rollback couldn't have been added. Personally Delay Smash is fine, not great but not awful as everyone likes to claim

I think the buffer is worse tho

 

[Schnee117]

Ngl, this argument sounds you eating an orange and complaining it isn't an apple.

Smash isn't perfect. Rollback would a good addition to online for Smash but why does Smash have to take itself seriously for a fringe demographic like FGC just because shares very few elements with other games in the scene.

Smash is a party game with fighting game elements(Don't say platform fighter, terrible term), not a fully traditional fighter like SF. Why change that?

( which means would have more common game-wise with Fortnite but i doubt that's what you meant)

Smash is objectively a fighting game and the creator of the platform fighter sub-genre. Just because you still have a weird chip on your shoulder over the FGC rightfully not liking Smash because of how Smash Fans have conducted themselves at FGC events doesn't change that.

Moreover if Nintendo want to hold competitive events of their own (which they do) then yes, they should actually take the scene seriously instead of paying lip service.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Smash is a party game with fighting game elements(Don't say platform fighter, terrible term)

Party game with fighting game elements is just a more long winded way of saying platform fighting game...Or actually, it's less descriptive since Party isn't a super helpful descriptor on its own but I digress. Platform fighter is the perfect term to describe these types of games since it denotes the marriage of platformer and fighting game elements.

For Rollback to work, it's just needs to made with the game in mind.

Ultimate was already made with delay so rollback couldn't have been added. Personally Delay Smash is fine, not great but not awful as everyone likes to claim

I think the buffer is worse tho

More specifically, Ultimate was built off of SSB4, which was built with delay based netcode in mind.

And you can add rollback retroactively (ArcSystem Works did it with a lot of their games), but something tells me that Super Smash Bros. in particular is very unfriendly to the idea due to it also having to track the items. If that is the case, I do like the idea that someone else posed of them having no items online modes be rollback but items online modes being delay based, though I don't know how feasible it is to do both.

Moreover if Nintendo want to hold competitive events of their own (which they do) then yes, they should actually take the scene seriously instead of paying lip service.

Yeah that's kinda my whole problem with it. I feel like Nintendo being so wishy washy with the community is going to drive people away when it could bring them more in.

Like, doing nothing would be better than this whole: "We're hosting casual tournaments! Competitive tournaments are stinky. We're partnering with Panda to host competitive tournaments! We should be the only ones hosting tournaments. Oh no, people are mad at us because we ganked the scene! Quick, cancel the tournaments we are allowing!"

 

[Watuna4343]

On the subject of unlockable characters, I genuinely don't see how people have a problem with the game pushing you to... play the game. Like, this is literally quintessential single-player content. Not all of us play multiplayer Smash 24/7, unlocking characters is probably the most basic element of people who just want to play Smash... alone, by themselves. I genuinely think that this notion of trying to get past the unlockable characters is a 'symptom' (for lack of a better word) of oversimplifying games and handling everything to the player from the beginning without giving the player the need to explore the game in its entirety (same thing as Mario Kart 8 DX, which had the most content out of any Mario Kart and ALL of it's characters and courses available from the start). But unlocking characters is probably the most rewarding thing one can get out of playing a game and taking that away is just a big slap in the single-player content. Same as making it optional as others are proposing, like what is the logic behind this? There were always people who hated unlocking characters and still bought and played the games all the same, it's genuinely not a bad thing for the game to push you towards a reward and having you get to accomplish stuff - however big or small -. Like if people now decided that they don't want to play Smash because 'oh it has unlockable characters' well... maybe they shouldn't play Smash if it's such a dealbreaker.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Speaking of which

Mario Kart's devs don't think "b-but this is a PARTY GAME with RACING ELEMENTS" as an excuse to have ****ty netcode. 8 Deluxe's netcode is way better than SSBU's and that's with 12 players and random items flying everywhere.

You’re not wrong about its importance but Mario Kart masks a lot of the connection problems. I believe that MK online races are essentially just you vs a bunch of “cpu players” who are all receiving and acting out inputs from the real players (not unlike ghosts) and that the game is showing you an approximation of all this that gets updated with each tick. If something on your screen is “wrong” it gets corrected and will usually result in a player turning or moving erratically or rubberbanding- which is far less noticeable than the game slowing down or hitching, especially considering how far apart players tend to be in a race. It’s like rollback without the predictions or subsequent rolling back, and it still waits on inputs from all racers being read.

Smash has to show each player the exact same image at the same time, and any hiccup means lag. With any luck, a better CPU on the next system will make rollback more feasible, but I don’t know that Mario Kart should be the gold standard for “good netcode.”

also, keep in mind, only around half of console players use wired connections and it’s even lower on the switch, so I expect a lot of complaints about laggy matches anyway.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but I don’t know that Mario Kart should be the gold standard for “good netcode.”

It's not, it's just...better, even with the flaws you mentioned.

That said I was wondering how it could handle rollback netcode with 12 players and items, thanks for the explanation.

 

[Schnee117]

More specifically, Ultimate was built off of SSB4, which was built with delay based netcode in mind.

And you can add rollback retroactively (ArcSystem Works did it with a lot of their games), but something tells me that Super Smash Bros. in particular is very unfriendly to the idea due to it also having to track the items. If that is the case, I do like the idea that someone else posed of them having no items online modes be rollback but items online modes being delay based, though I don't know how feasible it is to do both.

Retroactively adding rollback has been done with a bunch of games now, it just requires a ton of time and investment that in Smash's case, it really is just better to make a new game instead of having to do an even bigger overhaul of almost every element of the game after having already had to do a big overhaul on all the stages just for Steve's mechanics.

But yeah it's important to have good online because like... come on, I want to play with my friends who live in other countries and I can't really do that when the quality of the online is legitimately some of the worst in a modern fighting game. It won't fix non-wired connections but being able to play with my partners who live all over the place in a stable setting is the bare minimum requirement for me.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Sakurai mentioned exploring netcodes based around Rollback for Ultimate, but I believe said they had concerns with the power of the Switch, which we've seen can handle the format, just probably a lot more dubiously in the 2016 era where this decision would have been made. We'll get it next time 100%

As for the other topic about competitiveness, I think Smash has pretty cleanly cemented itself as its own nook between a party and a fighting, now categorized as a platform fighter. It's just human nature that when something is towing the line between two labels, some people will want to throw it in one category and some will want to recategorize it.

 

[smashkirby]

On the subject of unlockable characters, I genuinely don't see how people have a problem with the game pushing you to... play the game. Like, this is literally quintessential single-player content. Not all of us play multiplayer Smash 24/7, unlocking characters is probably the most basic element of people who just want to play Smash... alone, by themselves. I genuinely think that this notion of trying to get past the unlockable characters is a 'symptom' (for lack of a better word) of oversimplifying games and handling everything to the player from the beginning without giving the player the need to explore the game in its entirety (same thing as Mario Kart 8 DX, which had the most content out of any Mario Kart and ALL of it's characters and courses available from the start). But unlocking characters is probably the most rewarding thing one can get out of playing a game and taking that away is just a big slap in the single-player content. Same as making it optional as others are proposing, like what is the logic behind this? There were always people who hated unlocking characters and still bought and played the games all the same, it's genuinely not a bad thing for the game to push you towards a reward and having you get to accomplish stuff - however big or small -. Like if people now decided that they don't want to play Smash because 'oh it has unlockable characters' well... maybe they shouldn't play Smash if it's such a dealbreaker.

And that's precisely why I find it rather strange to see people having such hang-ups over unlockable content these days, both in Smash AND in other games (fighting or otherwise).

Like, I get that not everyone is the same and some folks just don't have the time/patience to go through all of that, but... Man, am I REALLY glad Sakurai didn't follow through on his idea to make EVERYONE available at the start of the Wii U version of Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate, by extension. In the Wii U version's case? I honestly don't know if I would have continued playing that had I not brought my Wii U over to my school's gaming clubroom.

Notably enough, those are the two (post-Smash 64) Smash games where I feel as though single-player content is sorely lacking.

Heck, part of why I'm so cool with Smash Ultimate making me unlock everyone that ISN'T the Original 8 is because... well, once you've collected all Spirits, finished World of Light (Base AND New Game+), and finished all of the Challenges... I'm sorry, but there isn't a lot to do, especially when you don't have someone else to play with on a constant basis.

It's why I always say that I wish Ultimate AT LEAST brought back Smash Run. I'm not kidding when I say I've put HOURS into Smash 3DS via that mode alone.