Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CannonStreak]

ooh that’s a good one

Goomba Galleon
Romani Ranch (during the invasion)
Ultra Space
Twilight Town (KH not pm)
AC Museum
Mahi-Mahi Resort
Lunar Subterranean
Bedroom (chibi-robo)
Prison Lane
Cloud Cuckoo Land

When you said Goomba Galleon, I thought you meant Gangplank Galleon, which is a stage I want.

Prison Lane sounds cool, too.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What's all this about a port?

There's nothing in the leak about a Smash port. Just that the next Switch is coming.

And people are just speculating what the next Smash on that console will be.

Wishful thinking on the part of those wanting EiH to continue indefinitely?

Correct thinking.

Edit: seriously, though, it is kind of wild to me how many people would actually be satisfied with a port.

Why wouldn't I be? Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is a port, and it's the best MK game ever, and just continues to get better.

Why would I be more excited about a "new" game, with less stuff in it, when the current game is already nailing it on pretty much every level?

 

[Ivander]

More characters? More stages? Better online? As for me:

 

[DarthEnderX]

My Ultimate Deluxe wishlist:

Character Changes
-Give Ganondorf a completely unique moveset based on Hyrule Warriors Trident Ganondorf.
-Make Black Shadow the Echo of Captain Falcon and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.
-Give Chrom a new unique moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Make Roy Marth's Echo.
-Give Falco the Sniper Rifle and Wolf the Machine Gun from StarFox Assault.
-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.
-Give Young Link and Toon Link different subweapons so they aren't just using the same Bow/Bomb/Boomerang combo as Adult Link.
-Make each of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon a separate Fighter, give every Pokemon except Mewtwo a trainer.
-Make Mythra into Pyra’s Echo.
-Expand the definition of Echo to include Dr. Mario and Pichu.

Gameplay Features
-Rollback netcode.
-Make Hazardless versions of stages selectable from stage select the same way Omega and Battlefield versions are.
-Remember my last color selection for each character. Smash 3DS did this. No idea why Wii U and Ultimate don't.
-Actually balance FS Meter FSes so that people will actually use them in competitive play.
-Kirby style Boss Rush mode.
-Bring back the Smash Run map as a Battle Royal. (64 players teleport in. Players run around killing creeps and collecting upgrades. Map shrinks over time. Last 4 surviving players have a Smash match.)

Additional Content
-More Characters, Echoes, Bosses, obviously. Preferably from my wishlist.
-Mii Mages and Ninjas.
-Bring back any missing Stages and Assist Trophies that didn't already return.

if you want to add 10 more stages to smash what stages will you add?

Anything we're missing from Everywhere is Here.

 

[fogbadge]

When you said Goomba Galleon, I thought you meant Gangplank Galleon, which is a stage I want.

afraid i meant a level from captain toad

Prison Lane sounds cool, too.

i may have a touch of the old tails bias

 

[Soy_Man]

My Ultimate Deluxe wishlist:

Character Changes
-Give Ganondorf a completely unique moveset based on Hyrule Warriors Trident Ganondorf.
-Make Black Shadow the Echo of Captain Falcon and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.
-Give Chrom a new unique moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Make Roy Marth's Echo.
-Give Falco the Sniper Rifle and Wolf the Machine Gun from StarFox Assault.
-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.
-Give Young Link and Toon Link different subweapons so they aren't just using the same Bow/Bomb/Boomerang combo as Adult Link.
-Make each of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon a separate Fighter, give every Pokemon except Mewtwo a trainer.
-Make Mythra into Pyra’s Echo.
-Expand the definition of Echo to include Dr. Mario and Pichu.

Gameplay Features
-Rollback netcode.
-Make Hazardless versions of stages selectable from stage select the same way Omega and Battlefield versions are.
-Remember my last color selection for each character. Smash 3DS did this. No idea why Wii U and Ultimate don't.
-Actually balance FS Meter FSes so that people will actually use them in competitive play.
-Kirby style Boss Rush mode.
-Bring back the Smash Run map as a Battle Royal. (64 players teleport in. Players run around killing creeps and collecting upgrades. Map shrinks over time. Last 4 surviving players have a Smash match.)

Additional Content
-More Characters, Echoes, Bosses, obviously. Preferably from my wishlist.
-Mii Mages and Ninjas.
-Bring back any missing Stages and Assist Trophies that didn't already return.

Anything we're missing from Everywhere is Here.

You've just described a new smash game. Why would they make major moveset changes to several characters (essentially replacing content from the base game), when the assumption, going into a "Ultimate Deluxe" is that it's the same game but with the dlc included and some added content. And you want all of these moveset changes ON TOP of entirely new characters? Save it for the next new smash game.

Also what do you have against the character switching mechanic?

 

[Mamboo07]

More characters? More stages? Better online? As for me:
View attachment 368979

Would be cool to see with new enemies.

 

[fogbadge]

Would be cool to see with new enemies.

yes it would

 

[Ivander]

Would be cool to see with new enemies.

Octarians, Salmonids, Risen(from FE:Awakening), Faceless(from FE:Fates), Mechons(from Xenoblade), Territorial Rotbart, Cactuars, Malboros, Magic Pots, Axe Armors, Medusa Heads, Mummies, Slimes, King Slimes, Drackies, Hacksaurus', Buzzbombs, Gruntlings, Creepers, Skeletons, Spiders, Heartless, etc. So many enemies that would be cool to fight against.

 

[Mamboo07]

Octarians, Salmonids, Risen(from FE:Awakening), Faceless(from FE:Fates), Mechons(from Xenoblade), Territorial Rotbart, Cactuars, Malboros, Magic Pots, Axe Armors, Medusa Heads, Mummies, Slimes, King Slimes, Drackies, Hacksaurus', Buzzbombs, Gruntlings, Creepers, Skeletons, Spiders, Heartless, etc. So many enemies that would be cool to fight against.

New Pokemon enemies from Gen 7/8/9 as well.

 

[Perkilator]

Would be cool to see with new enemies.

Lemme share a list I had of enemies not already in Smash Run:

Spoiler

Super Mario

• Dry Bones
• Boo

Donkey Kong

• Klaptrap
• Zinger

The Legend of Zelda

• Bokoblin
• Guardian
• Yiga Assassin

Metroid

• Zebesian
• E.M.M.I.

Yoshi

• Grim Leecher

Kirby

• Awoofy
• Ringle

Pokémon

• Golbat & Zubat
• Delibird
• Gulpin
• Rotom
• Cofagrigus
• Aegislash
• Mimikyu
• Cramorant
• Tinkaton

MOTHER/EarthBound

• Steel Mechorilla

Fire Emblem

• Risen
• Faceless

Kid Icarus

• Shemum
• Eggplant Wizard

Wario

• Pizza Dinosaur

Metal Gear

• Dwarf Gekko

Sonic

• Motobug
• Buzz Bomber
• Egg Pawn

Pikmin

• Burrowing Snagret

Mega Man

• Mettaur

PAC-MAN/NAMCO

• Ghost (PAC-MAN World 2)
• Galaga

Xenoblade Chronicles

• Territorial Rotbart

NES Retro

• Duck (Duck Hunt)
• Fighter (Urban Champion)

Final Fantasy

• Cactuar
• Malboro
• Tonberry

Bayonetta

• Affinity

Splatoon

• Octotrooper

Castlevania

• Axe Knight
• Eagle and Flea Man
• Medusa Head

Persona/SMT

• Jack Frost
• Pyro Jack

Dragon Quest

• Slime
• King Slime
• Golem

Banjo-Kazooie

• Buzzbomb

Minecraft

• Zombie
• Skeleton
• Creeper
• Enderman

Tekken

• Mokujin

Kingdom Hearts

• Shadow
• Soldier
• Large Body

Other

• Mad Bomber (Bomberman ft. Wario)
• Morolians (Space Channel 5)
• Red Arremer (Ghosts ‘n Goblins)
• Marduk (God Eater)
• SV-001 (Metal Slug)

 

[Quillion]

Smash Run is nice, but I think a more developed Melee-style Adventure Mode would be better.

I personally want Adventure Mode to be comprised of smaller "mini-Adventures", like have a Mario Adventure, a Zelda Adventure, Metroid Adventure, Kirby Adventure, Fire Emblem Adventure, etc. Make them comprised of three stages and a boss at the end, and have all of these individual adventures separate from each other with no connection.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Fighters for Ultimate Special Edition
Base game:
Pokemon from Gen 8 (Cinderace, Urshifu, or Zarude)
Raven Beak
Crash
Scorpion
Sub Zero (echo of Scorpion)
Octoling (echo of Inkling)
DLC:
Professor Layton
Dr. Eggman
Rayman
One of the four champions from BOTW (Mipha most likely)
Reimu as the 100th fighter with some doujin songs like from beatmario, IOSYS, etc

 

[Perkilator]

Adding new characters aside, one thing an Ultimate DX needs to do that would be seriously appreciated is properly integrating the DLC characters into the rest of the game, like Spirit Battles, Classic Mode routes and World of Light (though whether that last one stays as is or gets changed is its own matter).

 

[SPEN18]

World of Light (though whether that last one stays as is or gets changed is its own matter).

Why, in a port situation, would they significantly alter WoL, which constitutes the bulk of Ult's singleplayer experience?

 

[Perkilator]

Why, in a port situation, would they significantly alter WoL, which constitutes the bulk of Ult's singleplayer experience?

I’m not saying they for sure would, I’m just saying they could if they wanted to include newcomers from post-2018 (though in that case, I guess you could just have characters like Min Min be reduced where their Spirit Battles used to be).

 

[DarthEnderX]

You've just described a new smash game.

Nothing I described is any bigger that what, say, SF5 Championship Edition added to SF5. It's stuff that could be done in a PATCH, much less a port.

Save it for the next new smash game.

No thanks. I don't need to give them an excuse to cut 40 characters from the roster.

Also what do you have against the character switching mechanic?

Transformation characters suck, because they take 2-3 times as much work to learn to play, without being any more powerful. And makes it so that people who want to focus on just one of those characters, have to do so with a gimped moveset.

Smash 4 splitting all the transformation characters apart into separate characters was one of the best changes the series ever made, and it sucks that Ultimate brought them back.

 

[SPEN18]

I’m not saying they for sure would, I’m just saying they could if they wanted to include newcomers from post-2018 (though in that case, I guess you could just have characters like Min Min be reduced where their Spirit Battles used to be).

Yeah, they could do that replacement for the characters who became playable, and I would expect a few new battles also, but that would be the extent of the changes I would think.

In a new game a lot more could happen with the singleplayer. Actually I would probably expect something entirely different than WoL, though WoL 2 is also possible.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, they could do that replacement for the characters who became playable, and I would expect a few new battles also, but that would be the extent of the changes I would think.

In a new game a lot more could happen with the singleplayer. Actually I would probably expect something entirely different than WoL, though WoL 2 is also possible.

Dude, Mario Kart 8's port is literally DOUBLING the size of the game that it's porting.

 

[Perkilator]

Yeah, they could do that replacement for the characters who became playable, and I would expect a few new battles also, but that would be the extent of the changes I would think.

At the very least, an updated WoL should also include 2-player co-op and Very hard difficulty.

 

[SPEN18]

Dude, Mario Kart 8's port is literally DOUBLING the size of the game that it's porting.

It's not that they wouldn't have the resources in a port situation to add more to WoL. After all, it'd be easier than adding more characters. I just don't think that would be the target for the bulk of the additional content. Reworking WoL completely probably wouldn't be worth the effort relative to simply adding more characters and stages, and adding extra Spirit battles to the existing WoL probably isn't going to move the needle for another premium dollar purchase from folks. Thus, I see minimal change to WoL as the most likely scenario. I think that any added Spirit battles would be there for very circumstance-specific reasons, for ex. marketing characters from games too recent to be in Ult.

Also MK8 isn't Smash. I don't think doubling Ult's content pool is a realistic expectation for a port, no matter what MK does. I hope I don't have to elaborate further on that point.

Besides, the point of doing a port is to rerelease something that is more or less the same and make more money on it, largely by taking advantage of the userbase on the new hardware that wasn't already on the old one, not primarily by manipulating people into rebuying a game they already have. Sure, you put in just enough bonus add-on content to get the most hardcore fans to rebuy, because you know they will, but the general public typically isn't repurchasing en masse. Porting something like MK8 was king when going from Wii U to Switch because the Switch's installbase easily, rapidly, and vastly outgrew the Wii U's installbase. This will most likely not be the case in the upcoming transition. And it's not like MK8 could add all its new content at launch or without upping the total value beyond the standard Switch game price point anyway.
Again, the point of a port is to do way less work per MSRP dollar. Which means that the amount of effort that could theoretically be put into beefing up a port's content pool is definitely not the amount that actually would be put in. The literal point is cutting corners and delaying having to make a ground-up game, i.e. delaying having to make as much of the brand-new content that pro-porters seem to want just as much as anti-porters.

Not to mention how unlikely it is that the graphical firepower of the next hardware will be as in line with the Switch's as the Switch's was with the Wii U's. The above assumes that porting is even feasible to begin with, which it very well may not be.

 

[PeridotGX]

Nothing I described is any bigger that what, say, SF5 Championship Edition added to SF5. It's stuff that could be done in a PATCH, much less a port.

Your list has thirteen characters getting substantial moveset overhauls. Not only is that something that's never happened in a Smash patch before (where the biggest character alteration is a purely cosmetic final smash animation), that's on the upper end of changes to characters between Smash games.

Also, I really don't get your fixation with relabeling characters already on the roster as echoes. Aside from a slightly re-arranged character select screen, what does it change?

 

[Soy_Man]

Nothing I described is any bigger that what, say, SF5 Championship Edition added to SF5. It's stuff that could be done in a PATCH, much less a port.

Championship Edition only had buffs and nerfs for pre-existing moves. It did not overhaul entire movesets, which is what you're suggesting. An enhanced port should preserve the content of the original while adding to it, not replace it.

Transformation characters suck, because they take 2-3 times as much work to learn to play, without being any more powerful. And makes it so that people who want to focus on just one of those characters, have to do so with a gimped moveset.

A character having a higher skill ceiling isn't a bad thing. Smash 4 still had characters that were 2-3 times harder to learn than others, because a variety of characters means a variety of skill ceilings, and some people gravitate the harder characters because they're depth makes them enticing. The character switching mechanic is what makes Pokemon Trainer special, and they're one of Ultimate's sickest designed characters. Removing that in favour of giving Charizard a rock would be such an awful change.

 

[Aaayei]

Given that'd still require rights renewals for all characters involved, I don't think an enhanced port of ultimate is as simple as people in this community seem to insist it is

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Porting also means re-licensing. It won't be easy and will be costly.

Adding more is a plus, and fairly realistic(not double, definitely not that much. That'd only work if the game already has a base 70 or more dollars purchase to help outset the new costs to have it brought over, coupled with the basic new content).

Mario Kart, also mind you, could only double its roster because a lot of them had the character already finished up or were very easy model reworkable cloned gameplay. Both, really. The point is that the assets were crap easy to do in comparison. Smash doesn't work that way.

(As for the Echo front, only Dr. Mario is actually possible to be one among any type of other clone. He specifically is the same model design as Mario, and is best described as lucky to not be one. He's only somewhat more unique than Ken, and Ken frankly didn't have to be an Echo either like the rest. If they aren't the same general bodyshape, they cannot be an Echo. Relabeling is pointless in those cases. Echoes are not the same as a clone(and Clone is officially called Model Swap Fighter, which covers a lot more than a regular clone. Semi-clones, and ones who are barely similar to the original self like Ness is to Mario is also a Model Swap Fighter. That's why the term Echo exists. It's the first actual true gameplay clone character title we ever really had, as it has... actual criteria that Model Swap Fighters never once really did)).

Anyway, for changes, not a lot needs to be done, IMO. Ganondorf needs a damn reflector so he can't be wafflestomped by projectile users, and a bit better approach options. Daisy gets different vegetable data, and gets rid of the Toads wholesale. Removing floating doesn't work that well, so unfortunately, she stays the same in that regard. Maybe switch the Frying Pan out for another funny item since it's a bit off compared to the other two Forward Smash items. Could also have a separate pool of items for her to grab than Peach to help change it up mildly. Richter and Dark Samus get some new frame data at the bare minimum. Hard to say what kind of moves Richter could really have otherwise, as he and Simon's point is that they take from each other. Chrom and Lucina are pretty nicely unique for all intents and purposes. I would like to see Pikmin & Olimar up the count of the total Pikmin onscreen if possible, but that's all I can think of in that case.

 

[SPEN18]

At the very least, an updated WoL should also include 2-player co-op and Very hard difficulty.

New difficulty I guess is possible but I wouldn't expect much (if any) work to be put into properly balancing it (kind of like some harder difficulties in FE games haha). But idk some people are oddly turned on by awfully balanced hard modes, so maybe you'd be into it regardless.

Idk about 2-player co-op. Seems like there was probably a reason they didn't implement it in base? In which case I don't see why that reason would go away now. But I do miss the co-op of Brawl's SSE.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I see some of you still haven't paid attention to how it was easier to add Sora than any unique newcomers in a base game already built off reusing assets.

Oh well!

 

[Quillion]

I see some of you still haven't paid attention to how it was easier to add Sora than any unique newcomers in a base game already built off reusing assets.

Oh well!

Wait, was Sora not unique in some fashion?

 

[HyperSomari64]

I remember when someone brought SymphoGear's Tachibana Hibiki into Smash speculation. So, how did her story with the community started?

 

[Perkilator]

I see some of you still haven't paid attention to how it was easier to add Sora than any unique newcomers in a base game already built off reusing assets.

Oh well!

Wait, I don't recall that discussion at all.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Adding new characters aside, one thing an Ultimate DX needs to do that would be seriously appreciated is properly integrating the DLC characters into the rest of the game, like Spirit Battles, Classic Mode routes and World of Light (though whether that last one stays as is or gets changed is its own matter).

Man, all i wanted were Palutena's guidances for the DLC.

Maybe some new codec calls but i know that will never happen, they'd need the voice actors to get together for new ones.

Either way i'd love it if in both a Palutena's guidance and Codec call for Joker Futaba hacks in to talk about him, think about it. She could use her hacking expertise to hack into Snake's codec, or use her Persona's supernatural abilities to hack into Palutena's communication with Pit.

Given that'd still require rights renewals for all characters involved, I don't think an enhanced port of ultimate is as simple as people in this community seem to insist it is

Under normal circumstances i agree, but with Smash i just feel like it's in a league of it's own, where it's so popular Nintendo could basically convince anyone to sign on.

 

[Gengar84]

Transformation characters suck, because they take 2-3 times as much work to learn to play, without being any more powerful. And makes it so that people who want to focus on just one of those characters, have to do so with a gimped moveset.

Smash 4 splitting all the transformation characters apart into separate characters was one of the best changes the series ever made, and it sucks that Ultimate brought them back.

I have to say that completely disagree with this. Transform characters have always been among my favorite character types in Smash. I’m just a casual player but I never had any issues using these in Smash. If there was one character I preferred over their partner, I could just use that one more often. I see transform characters as basically twice the fun. I play as basically every character in Smash so the learning curve was never an issue for me. Maybe if I cared about competing in tournaments things would be different but I think Smash doesn’t just have to appeal to competitive players.

Duo characters can offer a lot that the characters individually couldn’t do as interestingly. For example, the two characters could play off each other’s strengths and weaknesses like Alphen and Shionne from Tales. For starters, Alphen is only able to use his signature flame sword thanks to Shionne. Alphen has powerful close range attacks at the expense of draining his own health. Shionne is the polar opposite being a gunner and healer. Alphen alone doesn’t offer quite as much since we already have a flame swordsman in Roy and characters that damage themselves like Charizard. However, being able to switch things up to Shionne to help cover his weaknesses makes him more interesting.

Dixie and Kiddy Kong is another example. The two can pick each other up and throw the other either as an attack or a means of transportation. Sure, they could also be unique as stand-alone characters but you would lose their double team mechanics. Duo characters don’t have to just be two completely separate characters with no interaction but could incorporate a few double team attacks to emphasize the team aspect.

These characters only lose one move out of their whole moveset to transform so it isn’t all that bad. Even so, there are easy ways around this though. For one, just change the transform method from a standard special to a taunt or shield special. Some other transformations could have the characters perform a double team attack as they tag in or out. To me, some characters are just more interesting as a pair than either half individually.

 

[Quillion]

I have to say that completely disagree with this. Transform characters have always been among my favorite character types in Smash. I’m just a casual player but I never had any issues using these in Smash. If there was one character I preferred over their partner, I could just use that one more often. I see transform characters as basically twice the fun. I play as basically every character in Smash so the learning curve was never an issue for me. Maybe if I cared about competing in tournaments things would be different but I think Smash doesn’t just have to appeal to competitive players.

Duo characters can offer a lot that the characters individually couldn’t do as interestingly. For example, the two characters could play off each other’s strengths and weaknesses like Alphen and Shionne from Tales. For starters, Alphen is only able to use his signature flame sword thanks to Shionne. Alphen has powerful close range attacks at the expense of draining his own health. Shionne is the polar opposite being a gunner and healer. Alphen alone doesn’t offer quite as much since we already have a flame swordsman in Roy and characters that damage themselves like Charizard. However, being able to switch things up to Shionne to help cover his weaknesses makes him more interesting.

Dixie and Kiddy Kong is another example. The two can pick each other up and throw the other either as an attack or a means of transportation. Sure, they could also be unique as stand-alone characters but you would lose their double team mechanics. Duo characters don’t have to just be two completely separate characters with no interaction but could incorporate a few double team attacks to emphasize the team aspect.

I'm more in the middle. I think in hindsight Pythra was the first character to get transformation right as they actually feel like two forms of the same being.

PT and Zelda/Sheik just feel like multiple characters tacked together. Duos like the way some want Noah/Mio and Dixie/Kiddy would SUCK, but I would like to see ICs have some sort of gimmick to switch the lead on the fly.

And I still want an improved Squads mode where you can swap on the fly.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Your list has thirteen characters getting substantial moveset overhauls.

No it doesn't. Only Ganondorf, Crom, Lucina, YL and TL overhauls are substantial. The rest are swapping out a single move.

Not only is that something that's never happened in a Smash patch before (where the biggest character alteration is a purely cosmetic final smash animation), that's on the upper end of changes to characters between Smash games.

Yes. It's almost like I have greater expectations for the next iteration of Smash as Nintendo GRADUALLY catches to the rest of the industry. Smash 4 did things with DLC that Brawl didn't. Ultimate did things 4 didn't. Ultimate Deluxe/6 will do things Ultimate didn't.

Championship Edition only had buffs and nerfs for pre-existing moves. It did not overhaul entire movesets, which is what you're suggesting. An enhanced port should preserve the content of the original while adding to it, not replace it.

CE added V-Shift to the game. A completely new mechanic that changed how every character and the entire game played!

 

[Gengar84]

I'm more in the middle. I think in hindsight Pythra was the first character to get transformation right as they actually feel like two forms of the same being.

PT and Zelda/Sheik just feel like multiple characters tacked together. Duos like the way some want Noah/Mio and Dixie/Kiddy would SUCK, but I would like to see ICs have some sort of gimmick to switch the lead on the fly.

And I still want an improved Squads mode where you can swap on the fly.

I can understand and respect that point even if I personally disagree with it. I never really had any issues with two mechanically different move sets put together as long as it made sense flavorfully.

What exactly would suck about Dixie/Kiddy or Noah/Mio? Dixie and Kiddy could admittedly work well enough on their own despite the potential for some fun teamwork but Noah/Milo’s pairing is much more fundamental to the mechanics and lore of Xenoblade. Getting either separately completely ignores the whole gimmick of Xenoblade 3’s combat that made it stand out. The Ouroboros fusions were integral to everything about the game. Technically, you could just have Noah and have Mio come in as a Final Smash for the fusion but I feel that’s missing the point. I feel the two should either get in as a pair or be a permanent Ouroboros fusion.

 

[Quillion]

CE added V-Shift to the game. A completely new mechanic that changed how every character and the entire game played!

How is a super backdash equivalent to a whole moveset overhaul?

I can understand and respect that point even if I personally disagree with it. I never really had any issues with two mechanically different move sets put together as long as it made sense flavorfully.

What exactly would suck about Dixie/Kiddy or Noah/Mio? Dixie and Kiddy could admittedly work well enough on their own despite the potential for some fun teamwork but Noah/Milo’s pairing is much more fundamental to the mechanics and lore of Xenoblade. Getting either separately completely ignores the whole gimmick of Xenoblade 3’s combat that made it stand out. The Ouroboros fusions were integral to everything about the game. Technically, you could just have Noah and have Mio come in as a Final Smash for the fusion but I feel that’s missing the point. I feel the two should either get in as a pair or be a permanent Ouroboros fusion.

I just think Pythra literally being AND feeling like two forms of the same being gave them a sense of cohesion Zelda/Sheik lacked and PT still doesn't have.

And here's something from an argument I had with TheTrueBrawler about four years ago on another thread:

What's wrong with [transformation] is that it is giving people multiple different options with the same character. Saying "everyone" may have been an overstatement, but there's still another issue. If players were to actually utilize weapon swap, it would just discourage players with a main that has this type of move from try new things or have fun with other fighters.

I'm using as the prime example here. A Halberd is weak but would have range. It would be really useful to not let the enemy get close. If one is seeking to utilize tons of spacing to an advantage, they should seek out , , or . A Claymore is slow but has a lot of power. It also is huge which I can imagine would weigh him down a lot. If one is looking to play a strong hitting heavy fighter, they should give , , or a try. It removes motivation for newer players to be adventurous. I think it would be best for players to give more than two or three fighters a try. I likely wouldn't have went on with Smash if there wasn't motivation to try fighters other than the few I knew when I first got the game. I had no idea who half the characters was back in Smash Brawl, but still gave them a try and actually really found a love for at the end of the day.

Transformation/Swapping is a bit of a dangerous mechanic since it could really diminish the design of playing around a character's weaknesses. It discourages trying other characters, can make one form overshadow another, and/or unfairly advantages the whole because they have way more options than a character without it.

If at all, it needs to be done with restraint, like how Pyra and Mythra share normals with different frames.

Also, I know part of the reason is you think Noah would wouldn't be all that unique without Mio. So let him take the Chrom approach and let him derive from Shulk while replacing Down-B and Neutral-B with other stuff.

 

[Gengar84]

How is a super backdash equivalent to a whole moveset overhaul?



I just think Pythra literally being AND feeling like two forms of the same being gave them a sense of cohesion Zelda/Sheik lacked and PT still doesn't have.

And here's something from an argument I had with TheTrueBrawler about four years ago on another thread:



Transformation/Swapping is a bit of a dangerous mechanic since it could really diminish the design of playing around a character's weaknesses. It discourages trying other characters, can make one form overshadow another, and/or unfairly advantages the whole because they have way more options than a character without it.

If at all, it needs to be done with restraint, like how Pyra and Mythra share normals with different frames.

Also, I know part of the reason is you think Noah would wouldn't be all that unique without Mio. So let him take the Chrom approach and let him derive from Shulk while replacing Down-B and Neutral-B with other stuff.

Yeah, I can see how having to learn a second character might be a lot more work if you want to really get into the competitive scene and utilize that character as efficiently as possible. It makes sense that people who are only interested in learning a few characters might not like the extra work involved in mastering an extra fighter. With me, and presumedly several other casual players, I like playing as many characters as possible for the sake of variety. I never get good enough with any one character to win any tournaments but I enjoy using all of them against my friends and the AI.

Noah’s lack of uniqueness mechanically is definitely one of the reasons I would rather have them as a pair but not the only one. Another reason is that I just like their dynamic as a team and think it could lead to fun gameplay. The third is that I tend to prefer the female partner as a character in many games to the male protagonist, as I do with Mio and Shionne. Noah and Alphen are cool too but there’s often something a bit plain about the player character compared to the rest of the party.

Finally, I’ve noticed several people advocating the removal of Sheik from Smash since she’s no longer relevant in the mainline Zelda games. I feel like if the pair were never separated in Smash 4, there would be far fewer people asking for this since she would still be integrated into Zelda and seen as a single character. I haven’t really seen many people asking for her removal in Brawl. Same goes for Squirtle and Ivysaur. I don’t think we would have ever gotten either character in Smash if it weren’t for the Pokémon Trainer concept. They are both among the most unique characters in Smash aesthetically so it would be sad to lose them or have never gotten them in the first place. Many of these partner characters would likely never get in Smash on their own so the duo concept gives secondary characters a chance.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Smash Run is nice, but I think a more developed Melee-style Adventure Mode would be better.

I personally want Adventure Mode to be comprised of smaller "mini-Adventures", like have a Mario Adventure, a Zelda Adventure, Metroid Adventure, Kirby Adventure, Fire Emblem Adventure, etc. Make them comprised of three stages and a boss at the end, and have all of these individual adventures separate from each other with no connection.

I feel like they could sort of feed into each other. If you have a Mario Adventure with koopas, goombas etc. as basic enemies and Boom-Boom as the boss at the end, then you could also reuse those same enemies in smash run. Maybe have Smash Run as Post Launch content, like how Home Run wasn't in Ultimate til 5.0.0.

I think it could also be neat to use some of the fightable ATs(like Shovel Knight or Zero) as mini-bosses in either or both. So if there was, say, a Fire Emblem adventure, then the Black Knight AT could be used as the boss. It would probably need some rebalancing though.

Yeah, I can see how having to learn a second character might be a lot more work if you want to really get into the competitive scene and utilize that character as efficiently as possible. It makes sense that people who are only interested in learning a few characters might not like the extra work involved in mastering an extra fighter. With me, and presumedly several other casual players, I like playing as many characters as possible for the sake of variety. I never get good enough with any one character to win any tournaments but I enjoy using all of them against my friends and the AI.

Noah’s lack of uniqueness mechanically is definitely one of the reasons I would rather have them as a pair but not the only one. Another reason is that I just like their dynamic as a team and think it could lead to fun gameplay. The third is that I tend to prefer the female partner as a character in many games to the male protagonist, as I do with Mio and Shionne. Noah and Alphen are cool too but there’s often something a bit plain about the player character compared to the rest of the party.

Yeah, having multiple fighters in one is something that needs to be done carefully. I remember seeing suggestions to have anyone who uses multiple weapons should have like 3 whole different movesets. I think Byleth was a sensible compromise to me in this regard; still used many weapons, but didn't have 4 whole different movesets for each of them.

I get what you mean. While you could still use the mechanics to still make Noah fairly unique(especially weapon swapping/fusion arts), I feel like if they stick to the default weapons, the best options would be either to have Mio, have Noah as an echo of Shulk while Mio is playable(though, just saying that gives me Smash 4 flashbacks with how people reacted to Lucina+Robin or Dark Pit + Palutena...) or, like you said, have them as a Duo Fighter. I'm most partial to the second option, but the importance of Duality and their Ourobouros forms being the same means I wouldn't hate the third option.

 

[MasterCheef]

Ahri
Master Chief
Dwarf Paladin from World of Warcraft
Elysium from Soul Calibur
Mio
Noah
Impa
Tabuu
Officer Howard
Skye from Valorant
Raven Beak
Isaac ( Golden Sun )

Alear replaces ; ( Lucina, & Marth ) & playstyle = Lucina’s
Alear’s Down Special = emblem Rings = ( Tiki, & connector ring )

Yunaka replaces ( Corrin & Chrom ) & playstyle = Chrom’s
Yunaka’s Down Special = emblem Rings = ( Corrin & Roy )

Vander’s replaces ; ( Ike & Roy ) & playstyle = Roy’s
Vander’s Down Special = emblem Rings = ( Sigurd & Ike )

Timerra replaces Byleth & ( playstyle = Byleth )
Timerra’s Down Special = emblem Rings = ( Celica & Lyn )

forgot Isaac

 

[Quillion]

With me, and presumedly several other casual players, I like playing as many characters as possible for the sake of variety. I never get good enough with any one character to win any tournaments but I enjoy using all of them against my friends and the AI.

That's why I want them to double down on improving Squads. Give the mode more freedom by adjusting the stocks from 2-5 and having a toggle to allow character repeats. Allow switching on the fly a la MvC (I'd say do it by Shield Taunt... as awkward as that may be). Keep it exclusively 1v1 though.

That way, we can make swaps of EVERYONE, not just characters that are built around it.

Noah’s lack of uniqueness mechanically is definitely one of the reasons I would rather have them as a pair but not the only one. Another reason is that I just like their dynamic as a team and think it could lead to fun gameplay. The third is that I tend to prefer the female partner as a character in many games to the male protagonist, as I do with Mio and Shionne. Noah and Alphen are cool too but there’s often something a bit plain about the player character compared to the rest of the party.

That's why Noah would be perfect being a Chrom-like clone, just with the wrinkle of diverging two specials instead of one.

Finally, I’ve noticed several people advocating the removal of Sheik from Smash since she’s no longer relevant in the mainline Zelda games. I feel like if the pair were never separated in Smash 4, there would be far fewer people asking for this since she would still be integrated into Zelda and seen as a single character. I haven’t really seen many people asking for her removal in Brawl. Same goes for Squirtle and Ivysaur. I don’t think we would have ever gotten either character in Smash if it weren’t for the Pokémon Trainer concept. They are both among the most unique characters in Smash aesthetically so it would be sad to lose them or have never gotten them in the first place. Many of these partner characters would likely never get in Smash on their own so the duo concept gives secondary characters a chance.

I think Sheik can stay around since recycling assets means cuts are a lot of loss for little gain. Maybe they should let her be joined by Tetra w/o Toon Zelda since Tetra isn't a one-shot. What Zelda really needs is Light Arrow Forward and Up Smashes to let her zone and kill better.

As for Squirtle and Ivysaur, they can stick around without swapping too. But hopefully we get more non-starter Pokémon though; just sticking to them as of recent is just boring.

I feel like they could sort of feed into each other. If you have a Mario Adventure with koopas, goombas etc. as basic enemies and Boom-Boom as the boss at the end, then you could also reuse those same enemies in smash run. Maybe have Smash Run as Post Launch content, like how Home Run wasn't in Ultimate til 5.0.0.

That could work too. I think there could even be a final "Fusion Adventure" where any of the enemies from any of the other Adventures can show up. Plus it could be a time to shine for a few SSE enemies. Maybe even Tabuu, Galeem, or Dharkon as the boss for that?

I think it could also be neat to use some of the fightable ATs(like Shovel Knight or Zero) as mini-bosses in either or both. So if there was, say, a Fire Emblem adventure, then the Black Knight AT could be used as the boss. It would probably need some rebalancing though.

Absolutely. I really think more enemies need to be ATs.

Yeah, having multiple fighters in one is something that needs to be done carefully. I remember seeing suggestions to have anyone who uses multiple weapons should have like 3 whole different movesets. I think Byleth was a sensible compromise to me in this regard; still used many weapons, but didn't have 4 whole different movesets for each of them.

That could work if you can swap between "styles" on the CSS when you select a character. You have multiple ways to play a character, but you can't swap between them to overload their options.

Raven Beak

This request is surely going to drop off when the next Metroid and/or Smash rolls around. I keep seeing him everywhere, but as a one-shot, he's not gonna last.