Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[osby]

Yeah, that theme actually fits Pokémon a lot better than it did Fire Emblem. I was so hyped for that game when it was first announced since I really liked Fire Emblem and Persona but the idol thing was kind of a let down. I did end up buying it but I never found the time to play it since it was at the end of Wii U and I don’t feel like plugging it back in or buying it a second time.

I think TMS had some neat gameplay ideas that paved the way for Soul Hackers 2 in a way but I don't blame you on the story. It's best to treat it like its own thing with Fire Emblem fanservice but it was still a weird angle to take.

 

[Sucumbio]

Dude. You can grab Sandbag! I love learning new things in this game still. Sandbag ... I miss getting to play with Sandbag in the online waiting area. I love the additions they did make but sometimes I wanna just beat on Sandbag. And fighting mirrors gets kinda stale too...

 

[Aligo]

GrabbA

Dude. You can grab Sandbag! I love learning new things in this game still. Sandbag ... I miss getting to play with Sandbag in the online waiting area. I love the additions they did make but sometimes I wanna just beat on Sandbag. And fighting mirrors gets kinda stale too...

Grababble sandbag is an underrated change.

 

[fogbadge]

Unless SMT and Pokémon crossover is another idol game

now there's an image. tokyo mirage sessions #pkmn

 

[HyperSomari64]

now there's an image. tokyo mirage sessions #pkmn

The world if Fire Emblem and Nobunaga's Ambition had a crossover.

 

[fogbadge]

The world if Fire Emblem and Nobunaga's Ambition had a crossover.

certainly the least strange out of those crossovers

 

[DarthEnderX]

But Mario getting hammer for his normals would be absolute BS since he fills an important "shoto" role that precludes him from being anything but a brawler.

Except it'd be fine because there's still two other characters, Luigi and Dr. Mario, that fill that exact same role.

And that's not even taking into account the ACTUAL shotos that are also in the roster.

 

[Lenidem]

Same thing different name to me. Ken (an echo) is more unique than Dr. Mario (a clone) was in Melee. There isn’t really much consistency with what qualifies as what. Then we have Alph, the Koopalings, and Hero as alts and it’s all kind of a mess. I just group them all together as characters that are strongly based on the foundation of another existing character, whatever their label.

I actually find it pretty clear.

- If there is a difference in height or weight, it can't be an Echo nor an alt: it's a clone.

- If there is at least one small change in animation, like in the taunts, it can't be an alt: it's an Echo.

According to this, Ken is not an exception. He could be a clone, but he doesn't have to. Same could be said for Lucina and Chrom.

Dr Mario cannot be an Echo since he weights more than Mario.

Pichu cannot be an Echo because he is smaller an lighter.

Alph and the Koopalings are not Echoes because all their animations are the same as their model's.

I have a small doubt for Dark Samus, but I think she weights exactly the same as Samus, doesn't she?

Also I don't know about the Heroes.

 

[Gengar84]

I actually find it pretty clear.

- If there is a difference in height or weight, it can't be an Echo nor an alt: it's a clone.

- If there is at least one small change in animation, like in the taunts, it can't be an alt: it's an Echo.

According to this, Ken is not an exception. He could be a clone, but he doesn't have to. Same could be said for Lucina and Chrom.

Dr Mario cannot be an Echo since he weights more than Mario.

Pichu cannot be an Echo because he is smaller an lighter.

Alph and the Koopalings are not Echoes because all their animations are the same as their model's.

I have a small doubt for Dark Samus, but I think she weights exactly the same as Samus, doesn't she?

Also I don't know about the Heroes.

I’m assuming there are zero gameplay differences between any of the characters that are alts like Hero and the Koopalings. The weird thing though is that alts can have different Final Smashes like Advent Children Cloud.

 

[Quillion]

Except it'd be fine because there's still two other characters, Luigi and Dr. Mario, that fill that exact same role.

And that's not even taking into account the ACTUAL shotos that are also in the roster.

That's just as horrible as telling Brawl/4 Link fans in Ultimate to just play YL.

 

[Aligo]

I suppose echo status is for characters with the same base stats and skeleton.

 

[Soy_Man]

Except it'd be fine because there's still two other characters, Luigi and Dr. Mario, that fill that exact same role.

And that's not even taking into account the ACTUAL shotos that are also in the roster.

How does Luigi fullfill the same role as Mario? Because his moves look kinda similar? They play nothing alike. Same with Dr Mario but to a lesser extent.

 

[Zerp]

I firmly believe Echoes are just marketing lingo to make the clones sound a little cooler. There's some consistent traits but I doubt they actually matter for the label or that there's any real criteria.

I’m assuming there are zero gameplay differences between any of the characters that are alts like Hero and the Koopalings. The weird thing though is that alts can have different Final Smashes like Advent Children Cloud.

There's zero differences with them yeah. The only alts I know of that have any gameplay differences belong to Melee Falcon. For whatever reason all the Falcon alts are slightly different sizes from each other, it's pretty funny.

 

[Gengar84]

I firmly believe Echoes are just marketing lingo to make the clones sound a little cooler. There's some consistent traits but I doubt they actually matter for the label or that there's any real criteria.

There's zero differences with them yeah. The only alts I know of that have any gameplay differences belong to Melee Falcon. For whatever reason all the Falcon alts are slightly different sizes from each other, it's pretty funny.

Those are pretty much my thoughts exactly.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We know there's real criteria. Isabelle couldn't be one because she wasn't the same general bodyshape as Villager.

The label isn't all that special, but they must have the same general bodyshape. The rest is variable and is undefined. Weight is implied to be a rule only because every single Echo is the same weight as the original character. But not actually said by Sakurai. The character playing fairly similar is suggested to be one, since it means they don't spend a huge amount of time on development, but it's never been said. Unlike weight, it can be considered a pretty clear rule, though.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That's just as horrible as telling Brawl/4 Link fans in Ultimate to just play YL.

Hey Brawl/4 Link fans! Play YL!

The weird thing though is that alts can have different Final Smashes like Advent Children Cloud.

Those differences are just cosmetic though. The cutscene is different, but mechanically, they're the same.

 

[Ivander]

Those differences are just cosmetic though. The cutscene is different, but mechanically, they're the same.

Has there been any other fighting games that do a similar thing where despite looking different visually, the super move is mechanically the same? I'm just sort of curious since I know cinematic super moves tend to be a novelty in fighting games, especially Marvel vs Capcom.
But something like that for alternate costumes or alternate character skins could be particularly interesting since the only things you need to worry about is:

1. Making sure both Super moves have the same hit scan/range/etc and the overall damage must be the exact same.
2. The same specific attack opening(like if a super move uses a short-ranged grab to initiate, the other super move must also use a short-ranged grab) and ending.(Like if a super move ends with the opponent crashing to the ground when un-KO'd, the other super move ends the same for the opponent, with them crashing to the ground).
3. Have around the same overall time length for the move(like making sure the other move does not go on much longer or shorter than the original super move. A few milliseconds difference though isn't a big deal, as long as it isn't a noticeable/gameplay changing difference.).

But as long as you follow those rules, and have the willingness to make a different cinematic animation, you could make the super move for an alternate character/costume look visually different to help bring their own uniqueness or to better fit the character without impacting the gameplay, right? Like I am trying to take tourney stuff into consideration and a visually unique super that has no gameplay differences between costumes/characters shouldn't have any impact, right?

 

[Lenidem]

I’m assuming there are zero gameplay differences between any of the characters that are alts like Hero and the Koopalings. The weird thing though is that alts can have different Final Smashes like Advent Children Cloud.

Indeed, but there is zero gameplay differences between Peach and Daisy, so this criteria isn't strict enough.

 

[Idon]

I actually find it pretty clear.

- If there is at least one small change in animation, like in the taunts, it can't be an alt: it's an Echo.

Female Byleth has different taunts, idles, and victory animations.

Has there been any other fighting games that do a similar thing where despite looking different visually, the super move is mechanically the same? I'm just sort of curious since I know cinematic super moves tend to be a novelty in fighting games, especially Marvel vs Capcom.

Yes. The most recent example I can think of is Dragon Ball FighterZ. Depending on your team composition, their level 3 super moves will have a slightly different animation but function exactly as they do originally. I believe the characters that have this are Gotenks, Adult Gohan, and Beerus.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Has there been any other fighting games that do a similar thing where despite looking different visually, the super move is mechanically the same?

I think, maybe, SSJ Blue Vegeta and Goku's supers are only cosmetically different from SSJ Vegeta and Goku? iirc

 

[Idon]

I think, maybe, SSJ Blue Vegeta and Goku's supers are only cosmetically different from SSJ Vegeta and Goku? iirc

No. They are different supers altogether, especislly considering both can use even more meter to upgrade them from pevel 3 to level 5 versions.

 

[Lenidem]

Female Byleth has different taunts, idles, and victory animations.

Really? ****, there goes my theory...

At least, it was true until the DLC, wasn't it?

 

[Quillion]

Female Byleth has different taunts, idles, and victory animations.

I know Smash like to break its own patterns regularly, but the fact they did that for DLC and not for any base game characters in Ultimate just sucks.

It would work really well to have OoT/TP Zelda as an alt for current Zelda without making a whole echo. Admittedly, I don't know anyone else it would work for.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The one thing I'm confused about is... did Byleth's other taunts have unique hurtboxes? Victory Animations obviously don't affect any core gameplay(at most these can be a slower victory for time purposes, but it won't do anything during a regular match anyway). I know Daisy's only actual differences are slightly different hurtboxes during some of her animations(meaning she's not 100% identical to Peach, but in competitive play, these bare changes don't make a difference). I can't remember if Byleth had a similar issue.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

So, we have a leak from the person who leaked the Pokemon presents stuff that we're getting a next gen console soon

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/CentroLeaks/status/1631026702770905096?s=20

For Smash, are we getting a new game or a port with all the DLC included and some new content like new fighters and stages, old and new?

 

[CannonStreak]

So, we have a leak from the person who leaked the Pokemon presents stuff that we're getting a next gen console soon

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/CentroLeaks/status/1631026702770905096?s=20

For Smash, are we getting a new game or a port with all the DLC included and some new content?

Wait, are you saying a new Smash game is going to happen soon after the next console is out?

I wouldn't mind a port, as long as they give the port a Mario Kart 8 Switch treatment with some DLC like that Booster Course pass.

 

[Soy_Man]

So, we have a leak from the person who leaked the Pokemon presents stuff that we're getting a next gen console soon

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/CentroLeaks/status/1631026702770905096?s=20

For Smash, are we getting a new game or a port with all the DLC included and some new content like new fighters and stages, old and new?

WE'RE GETTING A NEW CONSOLE SOON??? WHEN THE SWITCH IS ON IT'S SEVENTH YEAR???? THERE'S NO WAY. I am truly befuddled by the utter insanity of this new information.

 

[CannonStreak]

WE'RE GETTING A NEW CONSOLE SOON??? WHEN THE SWITCH IS ON IT'S SEVENTH YEAR???? THERE'S NO WAY. I am truly befuddled by the utter insanity of this new information.

It was a while ago. Nintendo said they were working on and planning to reveal the new console this year, something like that. And with that, that is probably why they did not plan for going to E3 this year.

 

[Quillion]

The one thing I'm confused about is... did Byleth's other taunts have unique hurtboxes? Victory Animations obviously don't affect any core gameplay(at most these can be a slower victory for time purposes, but it won't do anything during a regular match anyway). I know Daisy's only actual differences are slightly different hurtboxes during some of her animations(meaning she's not 100% identical to Peach, but in competitive play, these bare changes don't make a difference). I can't remember if Byleth had a similar issue.

I think the core issue is that Daisy is unambiguously a distinct character from Peach with a very distinct personality, so having them be alts would be really awkward.

I know Alph exists, but he and Olimar don't really show their personalities that much since their games are more focused on the world and atmosphere around them.

For Smash, are we getting a new game or a port with all the DLC included and some new content like new fighters and stages, old and new?

I'll just restate again that they should reuse the assets of Ultimate to make something new out of it like Ultimate did with Smash 4.

 

[CannonStreak]

You guys think this new Smash game would be announced soon after the new console is announced, or if we are lucky, when the new console is announced?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think the core issue is that Daisy is unambiguously a distinct character from Peach with a very distinct personality, so having them be alts would be really awkward.

I know Alph exists, but he and Olimar don't really show their personalities that much since their games are more focused on the world and atmosphere around them.

That isn't the point I'm making. It's whether Byleth took away the only unique thing Daisy had as an Echo or not by doing the same thing.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

If it's a port, I think we'll have 3 new fighters and 3 echo fighters. 2 are based on the old roster, and the other is based on one of the new.

 

[Mamboo07]

What's all this about a port?

 

[Luke Starkiller]

If it's a port, I think we'll have 3 new fighters and 3 echo fighters. 2 are based on the old roster, and the other is based on one of the new.

We'll get three new stages as well with that logic then and some music tracks which could be great.

Also new Mii Costumes as well which could be nice. I like the idea of Master Chief getting a Mii Costume if he isn't playable as a fighter.

 

[SPEN18]

What's all this about a port?

Wishful thinking on the part of those wanting EiH to continue indefinitely?

Edit: seriously, though, it is kind of wild to me how many people would actually be satisfied with a port. Not aiming to make fun of people's wants but I do think some of the perceived likelihood of a port does stem from EiH wish-fulfillment.

 

[Perkilator]

If this hypothetical port were to exist, I’d hope it would go roughly 100 fighters (including Echo Fighters, since the 7 we have now makes 89 fighters as of Sora).

 

[Soy_Man]

If they port ultimate, I'd hope they balance the game a bit more and maybe add some returning game modes, like smash run or break the targets. The last thing ultimate needs is more characters.

 

[Geno Boost]

if you want to add 10 more stages to smash what stages will you add?

 

[CommanderZaktan]

We'll get three new stages as well with that logic then and some music tracks which could be great.

Yea, and also some stages from the old games like Pac Maze and Rainbow Road.

 

[fogbadge]

if you want to add 10 more stages to smash what stages will you add?

ooh that’s a good one

Goomba Galleon
Romani Ranch (during the invasion)
Ultra Space
Twilight Town (KH not pm)
AC Museum
Mahi-Mahi Resort
Lunar Subterranean
Bedroom (chibi-robo)
Prison Lane
Cloud Cuckoo Land