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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Gengar84

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Why would even they be cut? They can just recycle their models (give-or-take some polish work) forever.




Can there even be a "critical mass" for the roster? This isn't Pokémon where having a thousand or so models for Pokémon, even with only two animations each, was inevitably not going to work (poorly publicized/handled as it was). Someone's going to have to (re)post how much storage all of the files of a character takes, but I'm sure the storage space for whatever media Nintendo will use for its consoles will always outpace the roster ambitions.

That said, I'll happily take a "what's done is done" position on character already in, but something definitely needs to change about how these "rotating cast" franchises are handled. Maybe arresting the whole trend of "new face from newest game" was too much, but we need better choices beyond Pokémon starters, Fire Emblem lords, and yes, red sword-wielding Xenoblade protags.
Yeah, I agree. I love all three franchises but it does get a bit boring to me that it’s pretty much a given that we’ll get a starter, lord, or main protagonist all the time. Lately, I haven’t been too fond of most starter Pokémon and lords are almost never my favorite characters. I actually like Noah as a character and he has a good design but he doesn’t really excite me as a Smash rep by himself. Either a team with Mio or their combined Ouroboros form would be more interesting to me.
 

Sucumbio

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Why would even they be cut? They can just recycle their models (give-or-take some polish work) forever.
Wait am I misremembering or aren't you of the opinion that such a thing would be "unsustainable"?
 
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Wonder Smash

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Double Dragon is one of those odd IP's in that its strongly associated with the NES, has had virtually every mainline game released on a Nintendo console, and has a legacy as the pioneer of beat em up titles... but it being so surpassed in popularity (and many would say quality) by the likes of Final Fight and Streets of Rage, has often rendered it as the "Oh yeah that one" of video game franchises even with Smash speculation. Its a bit like Bubble Bobble, where many of those games (and its spin-offs) have been all over Nintendo consoles, but feel kinda there in terms of discussion, SSB related or otherwise.
If we're talking about beat'em up discussions, I've never seen anybody treat the series like that. Double Dragon has always been recognized as one of the pioneers of the genre. Even though Final Fight and Streets of Rage have some recognition in their own right, they never made people forget that it started with series like Double Dragon. It's seen more like the proud papa watching its kids grow.

If we're talking Smash discussions, yeah that does happen. Double Dragon gets lost in sea of discussions about other games and characters. But at the same time, whenever they do get brought up, people don't seem to have any problems with them being possible characters. Overall, many people agree that they are good ideas. So I guess it's not a bad thing. Just needs more attention to it.
 
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Zerp

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Why would even they be cut? They can just recycle their models (give-or-take some polish work) forever.
Same reason characters got cut in Brawl and Smash 4. The issue is how much work can realistically be done before the game's gone gold. For every character you'd likely need to make sure that:
  • The animations are up to par with the rest of the cast (and the standards get better every game)
  • The character has voice work and sound design completed
  • The character's coding is up to standards and is in line with the rest of the game (doesn't cause performance issues, memory leaks, etc)
  • The character has all the side content they need up to the standards of the game (think trophies/spirits, copy ability, victory theme, etc)
  • The character has balancing work done
  • Nintendo and all other license-holders give approval
A veteran should be easier to work with than a newcomer but like, it's not as simple as just copy-pasting them over to a new game. Especially when there's no guarantee the next game will even run on the same engine. If it's a port I wouldn't expect cuts, but otherwise? Yeah, I do expect a little. I doubt Nintendo is going to market it with "Everyone is Here" a second time after that lost the initial hype over "Look at how many cool newcomers we have". Remember how Ultimate only had 5 non-clone/semi-clone newcomers before DLC? They likely won't have time to work on bringing the whole cast back while making a ton of newcomers.

Can there even be a "critical mass" for the roster? This isn't Pokémon where having a thousand or so models for Pokémon, even with only two animations each, was inevitably not going to work (poorly publicized/handled as it was). Someone's going to have to (re)post how much storage all of the files of a character takes, but I'm sure the storage space for whatever media Nintendo will use for its consoles will always outpace the roster ambitions.
I don't think he meant file size by "critical mass", but yeah we're very far from reaching a limit on file size. I'm not an expert on compression and stuff but like, just look at Brawl mods. Some of those have 100+ characters and run on the Wii with no issues. And you know what they usually cut for the Wii builds? Music, that tends to take up more space. Yeah, really lol. And like, the Switch and it's successor obviously have waaaaaaay better storage than a Wii. I wouldn't worry about the developers not having enough room or anything like that.
 

DarthEnderX

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Hot take time: Geralt should be allowed . The Witcher games are just so much more iconic than the books
Irrelevant. The origin is what matters.

And even if it wasn't, he's arguably now more iconic as a TV character than a video game character.

Honestly **** it they can join too. I think that people are sticking too hard to the letter and missing the meaning. Smash should be a celebration of gaming, Witcher is a key part of gaming, ergo it should be allowed in the celebration.
You celebrate gaming by not opening the door to non-gaming licenses.

My claim was simply that characters important to gaming should be allowed in Smash, regardless of their origins. Fairly certain none of these are particularly relevant to the industry.
This is WWF No Mercy erasure and I won't stand for it.

Double Dragon has always been recognized as one of the pioneers of the genre.
Despite it being a direct follow-up to the original Kunio-kun game!

Kunio is the real pioneer. He originated the belt scrolling brawler genre with Renegade. Then originated the superior open-world-with-rpg-mechanics version of the genre with River City Ransom.
 
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Quillion

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Wait am I misremembering or aren't you of the opinion that such a thing would be "unsustainable"?
To clarify:
  • Recycling the models and animations is a very efficient and ideal way of maintaining (most of) the roster in the future. The HD leap in the 7th gen skyrocketed development costs, so everyone adapted by using a lot of pre-built/recycled assets, so Smash should too.
  • What I consider unsustainable is letting Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and any other "rotating cast" first-party franchise in Smash continuously accumulate characters, as combined with asset recycling, that will cause the roster to be filled with a bunch of flavor-of-the-month artifact characters that inevitably fall off. Sure, they could just cut those characters, but that's just a waste of resources that could be used in the future. It also doesn't help that the choices for "rotating cast" franchises are very predictable, as in recent times Pokémon trends towards starters while Fire Emblem trends towards protagonists. Xenoblade narrowly avoided the protagonist trap thanks to tech limits, and even then it can fall into it anyway next game.
All of that said, perhaps I was being too hard on accumulating the "obligatory new faces" and pushing for established characters. I'll also stand by my "what's done is done" position and recycle the character assets of those already in (again, give or take fluctuating third-party licenses).

But man, there are MUCH cooler character choices beyond Pokémon starters and Fire Emblem/Xenoblade protagonists. I know they've put in the work to making Fire Emblem and Xenoblade protagonists unique and all, plus Pokémon starters are fairly unique from each other to begin with. But I want to see that work put into a character who's unique within their "rotating cast" franchise to begin with, then has the uniqueness translated into Smash (hopefully without the gimmicks that plague several Smash 4-on characters).

Still, I place more blame on how Pokémon recently fails to market anything other than its starters and mascot legendaries, Fire Emblem fails to market anything other than its lords, and Xenoblade... as a marketing machine is a very recent development so I can at least excuse that.

Again, something just needs to change about how these "rotating cast" franchises are handled in Smash. IMO, just don't leave the established old faces behind for good.

Same reason characters got cut in Brawl and Smash 4. The issue is how much work can realistically be done before the game's gone gold.
Fair enough, but given the shifts in AAA development due to the HD leap, I don't think we even need big animation updates to the veterans. Coding might need to be from scratch sure, and changing one or two moves wouldn't hurt, but re-animating a move just for it to look similar in the end is pointless now.
 

JOJONumber691

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/Smash Fan unable to handle criticism, resorting to fanboyism and deflecting using the same bot response of "Be grateful"? Another day ending with Y.

Sorry to break it to ya but when came to DLC, other than a few picks, it and the overall direction sucked.
My point still stands. This is a gigantic roster that is almost definitely never getting repeated, so you should at least appreciate that. I'm not even a fanboy, and I have characters I disagree with (to name them all we got Roy, ZSS, Olimar, Olimar especially, Corrin, Incineroar, Joker, Min Min, and even though I love Sora, Sora) and Characters I wholeheartedly think need a Redesign (again to name them all we have Samus, Dark Samus, Daisy, Bowser, Lucina, Ganondorf, Dark Pit, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Toon Link, Inkling, and Joker) or Stages (No Bowser's Castle, PAC-LAND over PAC-MAZE, no Rainbow Road, Bad Paper Mario Stage, no Legal Zelda or Xenoblade Stage, Lack of Tetris or other Stages without a Fighter, No good Splatoon Stage, Lack of Non-Jungle related DK Stages or Non-Lava Related Metroid Stages, or any non-Grass Sonic Map). But the thing is that, even with all these issues, I still genuinely appreciate the whole package because I know it is never getting repeated. That is what I meant by that comment. I just didn't know my wording was in the wrong lmao. Basically, appreciate what we have now because it will likely never be repeated.
 

Quillion

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I don't understand why ya'll are lumping Xenoblade into the "rotating casts" category when it's only been in two Smash games, only had one character in both until DLC, and only has three games total
I'm lumping it in because it has a rotating cast. This has nothing to do with how much characters it has in Smash nor how long it's been represented.

I think I get what you mean: let Xenoblade have its "obligatory new faces" for at least some time before we have this discussion. But I'm just thinking about its future here. I don't want Xenoblade's character selection in Smash to be as boring as Fire Emblem's or as of late Pokémon's.
 

Opossum

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I think my issue with the idea of rotating casts inherently leading to an overabundance of "flavor of the month" characters is that...very few of the ones we have can truly be described as such. Almost all of them have retained their popularity very well.

Pikachu, Pokémon Trainer and the Kanto starters (especially Charizard), Mewtwo, Lucario, Greninja, Marth, Roy, Ike, Chrom, Robin, Lucina, Byleth (even if they're less popular than the House Leaders), Shulk, Pyra, and Mythra are all among the most popular characters in their respective franchises, even though they've since lost their "new toy" status.

Truly, the only ones that have the flavor of the month feel are Pichu (who, let's be honest, wouldn't have even come back had it not been for Everyone is Here), Jigglypuff (who's mostly still here for legacy and ease of development), Incineroar, and Corrin (both of whom are controversial even within their own series' fanbases). And even for those last two, they still rank pretty well on series polls, even if they don't do as well as the others who got into Smash.

It honestly feels like going after a problem that's either incredibly minor right now, or straight up doesn't exist yet.

So, ANYONE CAN JOIN!?

Characters that have a chance for a future Smash Bros game:
1. Stone Cold Steve Austin
2. SMG4
3. Nigel Thornberry
4. Sleet and Dingo (Sonic Underground)
5. Weird "Al" Yankovic
6. Iggy and Spike (SMB Movie)
7. Mike Wazowski (Monsters Inc.)

/s
This doesn't have much to do with anything, but because you misplaced the quotation marks in Weird Al's name, it makes it look like his legal name is Weird Yankovic and that's hilarious.
 

Quillion

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I think my issue with the idea of rotating casts inherently leading to an overabundance of "flavor of the month" characters is that...very few of the ones we have can truly be described as such. Almost all of them have retained their popularity very well.

Pikachu, Pokémon Trainer and the Kanto starters (especially Charizard), Mewtwo, Lucario, Greninja, Marth, Roy, Ike, Chrom, Robin, Lucina, Byleth (even if they're less popular than the House Leaders), Shulk, Pyra, and Mythra are all among the most popular characters in their respective franchises, even though they've since lost their "new toy" status.

Truly, the only ones that have the flavor of the month feel are Pichu (who, let's be honest, wouldn't have even come back had it not been for Everyone is Here), Jigglypuff (who's mostly still here for legacy and ease of development), Incineroar, and Corrin (both of whom are controversial even within their own series' fanbases). And even for those last two, they still rank pretty well on series polls, even if they don't do as well as the others who got into Smash.

It honestly feels like going after a problem that's either incredibly minor right now, or straight up doesn't exist yet.


This doesn't have much to do with anything, but because you misplaced the quotation marks in Weird Al's name, it makes it look like his legal name is Weird Yankovic and that's hilarious.
I'm more concerned about marketing prominence rather than popularity here, given that popularity is both erratic and prone to bias in measurement.
 

Sucumbio

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But man, there are MUCH cooler character choices beyond Pokémon starters and Fire Emblem/Xenoblade protagonists.
I understand. I guess my thing is at least with Pokemon and FE they really don't have any incentive to not do this, because it's a good way to advertise their latest games.
 

Hadokeyblade

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The question is....who would get the first newcomer slot?
It'll never happen but i always felt like the perfect E3 hype trailer for smash would be one that shows a reveal for both Master chief and a Sony rep, like Kratos or Rachet. And showing them duking it out with Mario.
 

Quillion

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"Marketing prominence" maybe be more quantifiable, but it's a dumb metric to use.
Why's that?

I'm not saying popularity shouldn't be a priority, but being as bias-prone as it is should make it a lower priority than marketing prominence.
 

Nabbitfan730

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I really hope we aren't still in denial about cuts because 90% guaranteed it's going to happen. EiH is a one in a shot chance.

Hope you guys better temper your expectations for Smash 6
 

Nabbitfan730

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I really hope we aren't still in denial about cuts because 90% guaranteed it's going to happen. EiH is a one in a shot chance.

Hope you guys better temper your expectations for Smash 6
 

Opossum

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I really hope we aren't still in denial about cuts because 90% guaranteed it's going to happen. EiH is a one in a shot chance.

Hope you guys better temper your expectations for Smash 6
Oh absolutely. I definitely agree it was a one shot thing. While I don't think the cuts are going to be as extensive as some believe (the prospect of a forty character roster is, frankly, ridiculous imo), I also think it'll be the largest roster culling thus far.

Personally I think they'd go for a roster size comparable to post-DLC Smash 4 for the next game's base game. So about 59 characters, or an even sixty if they want to be especially nice.
 
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Sucumbio

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Speaking of roster size, what's everyone's opinion on Ultimate's DLC size? 12 characters (11 if you don't count Plant) is that a lot? Could we have more, like 20 or whatever? Ultimate was my first game I owned that even has DLC that I bought, and to me the business model of adding more fighters in the form of paid DLC is fine to me, and I think next game they could expand this to 3 or even 4 passes. And so even if the next game's base is only 40 characters, by adding 18 or 24 more through DLC ...
 

Hadokeyblade

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I'm still in the camp that it's easy money for Nintendo if they sold us a roster the size of Smash 4 while also selling us a combination of newcomers and veterans as multiple seasons of DLC like the rest of the fighting game industry does so that we eventually by the end of the games life build it up to everyone is here again.

Also please make it so the next smash has the characters listed by franchise again, this drives me nuts playing Ultimate.
 

Wonder Smash

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Despite it being a direct follow-up to the original Kunio-kun game!

Kunio is the real pioneer. He originated the belt scrolling brawler genre with Renegade. Then originated the superior open-world-with-rpg-mechanics version of the genre with River City Ransom.
They're both pioneers then. lol

Double Dragon is the father, Kunio is the grandfather.
 

Nabbitfan730

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Speaking of roster size, what's everyone's opinion on Ultimate's DLC size? 12 characters (11 if you don't count Plant) is that a lot? Could we have more, like 20 or whatever? Ultimate was my first game I owned that even has DLC that I bought, and to me the business model of adding more fighters in the form of paid DLC is fine to me, and I think next game they could expand this to 3 or even 4 passes. And so even if the next game's base is only 40 characters, by adding 18 or 24 more through DLC ...
I'm going to be honest, I'm not a fan of direction of Ultimate's DLC. There wasn't any need for 2 passes.

The Game already had a lot of fighters and it didn't need that much more. Not mention if you didn't like or enjoy the fighter announced, you were SOL for the next 3-4 months with extra long wait just for an announcement for fighter that has a strong chance of disliking then again and again and again. It's an unhealthily cycle and barely supports the game alive for only a week or so,

Those 3 years of Development and resources could've directed at something else other than fighters. The ideal way to go about it could've been one pass like say Fighter Pass 2 for the 3 years and in-between they could work on modes on the side like Boss Rush, Online Smash Run, Rollback etc so if you didn't like the fighter you still have something to forward to instead of just disappointment.
 

Quillion

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I really hope we aren't still in denial about cuts because 90% guaranteed it's going to happen. EiH is a one in a shot chance.

Hope you guys better temper your expectations for Smash 6
Cuts are guaranteed, but whether other parts of the game will make up for it isn't.

This is why I'm in favor of recycling at least models and animations, since that gets as close to a win-win as possible without going into "endless now port" territory.
 

osby

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Speaking of roster size, what's everyone's opinion on Ultimate's DLC size? 12 characters (11 if you don't count Plant) is that a lot? Could we have more, like 20 or whatever? Ultimate was my first game I owned that even has DLC that I bought, and to me the business model of adding more fighters in the form of paid DLC is fine to me, and I think next game they could expand this to 3 or even 4 passes. And so even if the next game's base is only 40 characters, by adding 18 or 24 more through DLC ...
12 is a pretty good number. A lot of modern fighting games have a similar number of DLC characters with much smaller base rosters.

I'm not sure if a longer DLC cycle would be really feasible, considering how long just two seasons took.

Those 3 years of Development and resources could've directed at something else other than fighters. The ideal way to go about it could've been one pass like say Fighter Pass 2 for the 3 years and in-between they could work on modes on the side like Boss Rush, Online Smash Run, Rollback etc so if you didn't like the fighter you still have something to forward to instead of just disappointment.
This is blatantly untrue.

As far as we know, most of the development team who worked on the base game wasn't around for the DLC. The talent you need for just making the fighters and stages is different from the ones who make new modes so you can't just simply switch the manpower from one task to another without recalling people.

Also, fans could easily be disappointed with new modes if they don't like them, you know. It's not something unique to fighters.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I felt 12(total slots, since there's 13 total characters actually added) was a very good number. Especially since they were spread out pretty well overall.

Each one felt quite unique, and while I can't work with every character added, it gave us some pretty nice content too.

I'd have liked some mode improvements too, but still. It's pretty good~
 

Among Waddle Dees

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Speaking of roster size, what's everyone's opinion on Ultimate's DLC size? 12 characters (11 if you don't count Plant) is that a lot? Could we have more, like 20 or whatever? Ultimate was my first game I owned that even has DLC that I bought, and to me the business model of adding more fighters in the form of paid DLC is fine to me, and I think next game they could expand this to 3 or even 4 passes. And so even if the next game's base is only 40 characters, by adding 18 or 24 more through DLC ...
I actually don't think 12's a bad number to have for DLC characters. If anything, that's actually quite generous an amount for what they were working with.

But then again, the DLC's quantity was not my issue with it.
 

Nabbitfan730

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This is blatantly untrue.

As far as we know, most of the development team who worked on the base game wasn't around for the DLC. The talent you need for just making the fighters and stages is different from the ones who make new modes so you can't just simply switch the manpower from one task to another without recalling people.

Also, fans could easily be disappointed with new modes if they don't like them, you know. It's not something unique to fighters.
But that didn't stop them from adding Home Run Contest and Stage Builder.

Even if they couldn't, they could update they have. Online Squad Strike, Smashdown, Multiplayer WoL or even WoL DLC. Many ways to actually extended support than just fighters
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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But that didn't stop them from adding Home Run Contest and Stage Builder.

Even if they couldn't, they could update they have. Online Squad Strike, Smashdown, Multiplayer WoL or even WoL DLC. Many ways to actually extended support than just fighters
HRC and Stage Builder are old things that were mildly updated. ...Not the same as making an all new thing or adding some big features. New DLC takes more time. Adding online to any mode has to account for tons of lag(and we know Smash Ultimate has some pretty bad online) and other oddities to avoid any bugs or errors.

Basically, nothing is as simple as you make it sound like. Those are good ideas, but require a ton of work and a much more dedicated team in practice. One they don't have.

Us getting old modes back are nothing compared to adding all new features to a currently new mode. And let's be honest, Stage Builder was barely improved, and HRC did nothing new but have more characters(which being by the time the game was gold, they already had 6 planned characters, PP and the other Fighter's Pass). So it's smart to put it off so they don't have to update it yet again when everyone releases. If we didn't have another pass, sure, it would've come back sooner, but timing does matter. Making one core update/programming at once is just... smarter. But still less work than the ideas you're asking.
 

dream1ng

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Remember, that's just simply what you think.
No, a product selling poorly resulting in limited knowledge of it isn't simply "what I think", it's how commerce generally works.

You would have a point if the character we're talking about wasn't from Mortal Kombat, a highly well-known series recognized worldwide and highly important one to the video game industry itself. So your argument kind of falls flat when it's a series that important. It being a not released consistently in Japan can barely be considered a hindrance.
Saying "but it's Mortal Kombat" is as much a defence as saying "but it's Doraemon" and expecting the west to know about it.

Actually, it's not western-centric at all. I also know about Kimba the White Lion...and just to let you know, I haven't watched a single episode or movie of Kimba the White Lion to this day.
It's almost like that's an anecdote that won't apply widely to the general populace, especially if you eliminate people who just know about it from the Lion King controversy.

Don't worry. It's not just me on this.
No, it's not. But that's in no way proof of a substantial audience.

But the point I'm making is that even though Banjo was highly demanded, Master Chief is their mascot. He's from the bigger series, so he could still very well have been added to the game and before Banjo, as there's no certain order for when highly demanded characters are added.
And I would refer you back to my point that the mascots weren't added because they were mascots, most were added due to demand, like Banjo, thus that point holds no merit.

You have a bad habit of putting words in people's mouth. You need to chill out with that.

Also, funny hearing that come from you when you just not too long said:

"You think Injustice sold well in Japan? I don't. Let alone the DLC."

Such trustworthy source there...

As you can see, you weren't against me trusting you.
No, I actually know Injustice sold poorly in Japan. It sold 9,999 copies on PS3 and 3,092 on Wii U. I wasn't musing, I have the numbers. Check yourself.

So yeah, what I say is supported by evidence or general rationale, what you say is basically "trust me, Mortal Kombat is Mortal Kombat, even in countries where it doesn't exist, it's noteworthy, case closed" or "a product selling poorly resulting in fewer people knowing about it is just like, your opinion, man".

Those are not only baseless claims, but illogical ones. You want to make the claim that Mortal Kombat exists in more than the extreme periphery in Japan? Prove it. Prove it by doing more than saying "Mortal Kombat is Mortal Kombat". Japan could say "Sakura Wars is Sakura Wars", they have animes, plays, concerts, restaurants, tons of merchandise, and yet the west, generally, barely knows about a series so huge in Japan because its existence outside the country is negligible. I guarantee you the average western gamer doesn't know about Sakura Wars, let alone the more casual consumer.

And yes, the rest of the world is a much bigger region than just Japan, but don't forget how insular and monolingual that country is, how much they prioritize their own products, and how little internet user crossover there is when compared to like, North America and Europe.

Otherwise MK would operate as that status quo, as do other unlocalized products, which is atypical awareness outside a dedicated underground attuned to games that region's media doesn't cover.
 

SPEN18

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On Xenoblade and FE, I don't really see a problem with them choosing the protagonists; they're the most important and honestly not any less interesting on average relative to the other characters in those franchises. It is just the pattern of always choosing the most recent with no evidence of giving a serious chance to anyone else that I don't want to keep up.

In Xenoblade it's not too much of an issue yet tho because there's only 3 mainline games, 4 if you count X, and Xeno1+2 already have their reps. So unless you're really into Elma there's not much in the way of legacy reps that would be infinitely blocked by the new reps. But it could become an issue, or at least pretty stale for plenty of folks, if this series turns into a brainless auto-rep over and over.
So while not too harmful in a vacuum, I'd be a bit concerned about what a third Xeno rep in 3-4 games might signal. Xenoblade, while growing, isn't the biggest or longest-running series out there, so when considering a Xeno3 rep for the next game I think I would put higher priority on reps from other series that could use more like Zelda, Kirby, DK, AC, etc. Like, Xenoblade has been pretty successful, but is it at the level where we want to give it a rep for practically every mainline release? If I see enough movements in healthy directions among the other roster choices, however, it could be at least passable for one more game. But again I'd like to see better handlings of other series, and not the same-old-same-old with PKMN/FE, to be fully confident that we don't just have history repeating itself.

--

PKMN starters, on the other hand, are quite a bit different than lords and protags in FE/XBC. Like, they're only "main characters" for roughly 1/3 of people's playthroughs; in another 1/3 they're essentially minor antagonists and in the final 1/3 they're often almost completely irrelevant to the main playthrough. Kind of tricky to grade, and tricky to measure up role-importance-wise to a typical protag. To make matters even trickier, PKMN starters typically receive quite a bit of marketing/visibility, but in the majority of cases it only lasts for a short while before it drops off a cliff.
Given the wealth of casually recognized and sometimes even mainstream-famous evergreens in the franchise, I am pretty wary of auto-repping starters from the most recent gen. I think it's relatively risky in terms of potentially not really panning out, or at the very least I don't think buying into the short-term sugar-rush of a newgen starter is usually worth the strain on roster spots that more evergreens could take (most of whom, by the way, appear regularly and sometimes even relatively prominently in the newgen games anyway).
 
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Lionfranky

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
1,040
I think reason for roster cut will be development time and resource, not licensing fee. There is still possilbility that Nintendo may try to turn Ultimate into lvie service. Highly unlikely, but still possibility nonetheless.
 

Wonder Smash

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,230
No, a product selling poorly resulting in limited knowledge of it isn't simply "what I think", it's how commerce generally works.
No, you literally said you didn't think it was a success.

Saying "but it's Mortal Kombat" is as much a defence as saying "but it's Doraemon" and expecting the west to know about it.
Seeing how famous Mortal Kombat is and it being one of the reasons for the rating system in video games, I think it's silly to act like people in Japan are somehow unaware of what that series is.


It's almost like that's an anecdote that won't apply widely to the general populace, especially if you eliminate people who just know about it from the Lion King controversy.
It doesn't matter how people know about the character or the series.

No, it's not. But that's in no way proof of a substantial audience.
It's proof that people can know about famous things without experiencing it.

And I would refer you back to my point that the mascots weren't added because they were mascots, most were added due to demand, like Banjo, thus that point holds no merit.
Yet, we have characters like Terry, who I don't recall was highly demanded but is the obvious mascot for SNK.

No, I actually know Injustice sold poorly in Japan. It sold 9,999 copies on PS3 and 3,092 on Wii U. I wasn't musing, I have the numbers. Check yourself.


So yeah, what I say is supported by evidence or general rationale, what you say is basically "trust me, Mortal Kombat is Mortal Kombat, even in countries where it doesn't exist, it's noteworthy, case closed" or "a product selling poorly resulting in fewer people knowing about it is just like, your opinion, man".

Those are not only baseless claims, but illogical ones. You want to make the claim that Mortal Kombat exists in more than the extreme periphery in Japan? Prove it. Prove it by doing more than saying "Mortal Kombat is Mortal Kombat". Japan could say "Sakura Wars is Sakura Wars", they have animes, plays, concerts, restaurants, tons of merchandise, and yet the west, generally, barely knows about a series so huge in Japan because its existence outside the country is negligible. I guarantee you the average western gamer doesn't know about Sakura Wars, let alone the more casual consumer.

And yes, the rest of the world is a much bigger region than just Japan, but don't forget how insular and monolingual that country is, how much they prioritize their own products, and how little internet user crossover there is when compared to like, North America and Europe.

Otherwise MK would operate as that status quo, as do other unlocalized products, which is atypical awareness outside a dedicated underground attuned to games that region's media doesn't cover.
Aside from the rating system that Mortal Kombat played a part in (which I'm sure Japan is aware of), there's also this:


Right here, we see this Japanese anime series Hi Score Girl referencing the Mortal Kombat series, even showing videos of the first game. Yes, we see this American game among these Japanese games that fans of this region know about in this series.

Then there's also this:


Mortal Kombat X Japanese tournament, despite the game not being released in Japan. Shows that people do know about this series where it "doesn't exist".

And then there's also these:


"The series not a complete unknown in Japan"


"The series lack of releases has nothing to do with the franchises popularity over in Japan."

And you got the nerve to bring up Sakura Wars, yet wasn't that series only released in Japan...until just recently? That's a bit different from Mortal Kombat's exposure to the Japanese fanbase years earlier, it's influence on the genre (inspiring games like Survival Arts, which is a Japanese game) and it's recognition in the industry, wouldn't you agree?

And finally, as for your source, so Injustice sold "poorly" but...so what? As you know, it's a DC game, not a Mortal Kombat game. Being a DC game, it has characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and certainly you're not going to say Japan doesn't know about them. It also doesn't mean Scorpion couldn't have gotten a positive reception from the Japanese fans who did get the DLC. So in the end, that's kind of pointless.
 
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Capybara Gaming

Just Vibing
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
9,832
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Kamurocho
And you got the nerve to bring up Sakura Wars, yet wasn't that series only released in Japan...until just recently?
Sakura Wars expert here. The original release of Sakura Wars, So Long, My Love, the first game in the series to jump to the West, released in 2010 in the States, five years after initial release. The series has been technically available in the West for 12 years, though there was a lull in the series from that time until the new game's release in 2019 (2020 in the United States).
 

Nabbitfan730

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
636
HRC and Stage Builder are old things that were mildly updated. ...Not the same as making an all new thing or adding some big features. New DLC takes more time. Adding online to any mode has to account for tons of lag(and we know Smash Ultimate has some pretty bad online) and other oddities to avoid any bugs or errors.

Basically, nothing is as simple as you make it sound like. Those are good ideas, but require a ton of work and a much more dedicated team in practice. One they don't have.
New DLC does take time, the Online is considered poor and it does require a ton of work and dedication which is why I said what i said. In those 3 years over development could've been used towards those factors instead on wasting it on just fighters. Never said it was simple nor easy but it something that could've been achieved with hindsight

They should've cut back on fighter production and work on those issues

Frankly we were spoiled with Smash ultimate's DLC, considering for 5 or 6 bucks you get a character/new stage/several music tracks.

Usually fighting game dlc is just a character and their theme music.
On the pricing standpoint, i agree. Most DLC for fighting games are so overpriced. Feels like i'm getting ripped off in comparison.
 
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