Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

ForsakenM · Nov 8, 2021

DaybreakHorizon said:
"The only big contenders" being DMC and Ace Attorney is incredibly reductionist.

You're ignoring Dante being one of the most popular characters this cycle, and Ace Attorney being a beloved Nintendo series that's been gaining momentum (which they'll hopefully capitalize on in the future). Both are significant draws and would bring a lot with their additions. Without spirits to shoot it down, Resident Evil is Capcom's best-selling series not in Smash and has had significance on Nintendo consoles for decades. They could also revisit Mega Man and add Zero, who's an incredibly popular character in his own right.

You're further ignoring the slew of other companies that could warrant representation in Smash. Just off the top of my head:

Arc System Works with either Guilty Gear or Blazblue

Koei Tecmo with Ryu Hayabusa or an Atelier character

Konami with Alucard (popular request)

Sega with Puyo Puyo, another Sonic character, a Shin Megami Tensei character, etc.

Microsoft with Master Chief

Bethesda with Doomguy or Dovahkiin

Namco with Tales of, Idolmaster, Don-chan, a Dark Souls character, etc.

Activision/Blizzard with Crash Bandicoot or Tracer (or another Overwatch character)

Ubisoft with Rayman or the Rabbids (either original or from Kingdom Battle)

If they wanna go balls to the walls Valve with Gordon Freeman or the Heavy

What makes Square's "beloved characters" better than the 25 beloved characters/series I just mentioned? And how would Sakurai and Nomura's friendship benefit the addition of a Square Enix character outside of the Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts series?

You also ignored my claim that it'll probably be difficult to get all four of our current Square Enix characters back. Cloud and Sephiroth might not be too hard (though it'll probably cost a lot, and I could see one or both also being DLC), but Hero and Sora both have complicated legal agreements that Nintendo will have to navigate again unless they either:

Don't bring them back entirely (and as of yet Nintendo seemingly always tries to get veterans back and veterans are consistently the most requested characters, either matching or surpassing that of newcomers),

or have already negotiated them for the next Smash game (which doesn't fit with the current narrative that Sakurai and Nintendo still need to hash out the future of the series).

Square Enix will probably see most, if not all four of its veterans return. So you're right, they probably won't miss out on the next game. That being said, there's nothing that stands out about Square Enix that makes them inherently more likely to get another character, especially as compared to other third party partners of Nintendo.

Gonna ignore most of that up there because you are making the wrong argument and making a massive assumption. I was talking about Capcom vs Square only, not any other companies. If you read anything I posted in other threads (and I know you did) and retained it (which seems to be in question currently) then you would know I think a bunch of other 3rd party characters have a good chance to be in the game. YOU said that Square will probably get sidelined in terms of playable characters like Capcom, and I mentioned that Capcom IN PARTICULAR either has most of their beloved characters as part of series already represented in Smash (Street Fighter, Megaman, frankly Monster Hunter) and thus would either have to double-dip (which I think is possible with Chun Li but not likely in any other way) or focus on their biggest demands which are Dante and Phoenix Wright, with a bit of RE in there but I feel like that franchise has more struggles ahead of it than DMC or Ace Attorney.

On record, I'm still working on that massive post that will go into detail on what characters I think are most likely for a new Smash title, but about half the **** you put in the list is stuff I'm putting in that post and some of it is going deeper into companies you mentioned but characters you didn't and vice versa.

I wouldn't say that Square has any advantage over any other companies' characters, but rather that Square tends to have a lot more characters people want...because they make RPGs that are consistently really good and get people attached to new characters nearly every game. I also think they have a clear advantage of previous history working with Sakurai and being friends with Nomura can just as easily lead to another Square character getting in even if they are outside those franchises just due to how friendships can work, though I'm not implying it will be that way, just that it clearly can. I would say this is in a similar vain to how much Sakurai clearly has an attachment to games Square has made and thus his bias can lean him towards working with them when possible: it's something that can happen, but I wouldn't imply it WILL happen.

Also I didn't see your argument about all the Square reps coming back, I must have missed that part. Regardless, you basically gave my answer in your own post: I think they are all coming back, so I don't even consider that possibility that Square will have to settle for just getting those characters back over getting in even more of their own creations. There are various reasons to believe that every single character will return for the next Smash game, and I could list many here, but the fact that it's common sense to keep what you have and improve on it tied with Sakurai's words about not wanting to disappoint fans and not being excited about making cuts is enough for me. The dude blows our minds constantly, so I think the next Smash game will be a case of 'Everyone Is Still Here!' as opposed to 'Some Of Them Are Still Here...'

DaybreakHorizon · Nov 8, 2021

ForsakenM said:
Gonna ignore most of that up there because you are making the wrong argument and making a massive assumption. I was talking about Capcom vs Square only, not any other companies. If you read anything I posted in other threads (and I know you did) and retained it (which seems to be in question currently) then you would know I think a bunch of other 3rd party characters have a good chance to be in the game. YOU said that Square will probably get sidelined in terms of playable characters like Capcom, and I mentioned that Capcom IN PARTICULAR either has most of their beloved characters as part of series already represented in Smash (Street Fighter, Megaman, frankly Monster Hunter) and thus would either have to double-dip (which I think is possible with Chun Li but not likely in any other way) or focus on their biggest demands which are Dante and Phoenix Wright, with a bit of RE in there but I feel like that franchise has more struggles ahead of it than DMC or Ace Attorney.

On record, I'm still working on that massive post that will go into detail on what characters I think are most likely for a new Smash title, but about half the **** you put in the list is stuff I'm putting in that post and some of it is going deeper into companies you mentioned but characters you didn't and vice versa.

I wouldn't say that Square has any advantage over any other companies' characters, but rather that Square tends to have a lot more characters people want...because they make RPGs that are consistently really good and get people attached to new characters nearly every game. I also think they have a clear advantage of previous history working with Sakurai and being friends with Nomura can just as easily lead to another Square character getting in even if they are outside those franchises just due to how friendships can work, though I'm not implying it will be that way, just that it clearly can. I would say this is in a similar vain to how much Sakurai clearly has an attachment to games Square has made and thus his bias can lean him towards working with them when possible: it's something that can happen, but I wouldn't imply it WILL happen.

Also I didn't see your argument about all the Square reps coming back, I must have missed that part. Regardless, you basically gave my answer in your own post: I think they are all coming back, so I don't even consider that possibility that Square will have to settle for just getting those characters back over getting in even more of their own creations. There are various reasons to believe that every single character will return for the next Smash game, and I could list many here, but the fact that it's common sense to keep what you have and improve on it tied with Sakurai's words about not wanting to disappoint fans and not being excited about making cuts is enough for me. The dude blows our minds constantly, so I think the next Smash game will be a case of 'Everyone Is Still Here!' as opposed to 'Some Of Them Are Still Here...'

If you think I have nothing better to do than follow you around, read your posts, and memorize any details then I’m sorry to disappoint you because I don’t. I honestly have better things to do, and I don’t believe that trying to call me on that is the zinger insult you thought it was. I’m incredibly disinterested in new Smash speculation, and only came in to discuss my thoughts on Square because it’s something I’ve put a lot of research into personally. Otherwise, I stick to the Social Thread and never venture out unless summoned or incredibly compelled to.

I know you only mentioned Capcom, but I brought up other companies to emphasize the point that choosing the Smash roster is inherently a zero-sum game. There are only so many characters added every game, and there are so many characters that are “beloved” that Square having 2-3 really isn’t too special, especially considering that their most popular characters are…already in the game.

Sure, Square is a close business partner to Nintendo, but what seriously differentiates them from Capcom, who’s given Nintendo countless exclusives over the years, or Ubisoft or Koei Tecmo, who’ve been handed the reigns of Nintendo’s precious first party IPs multiple times, among others? Sakurai and Nomura’s relationship is a thing sure, but leveraging that precludes that Nintendo (and Sakurai assuming he’s the director of the next game—which isn’t a definite) would go for another Square Enix character where that relationship could be leveraged.

The question I’m asking is why Square Enix at this point? At best they have the same case to be made as multiple other companies, and at worst they got major representation in Smash Ultimate DLC (3/11 characters, over 25%) that Nintendo might legitimately wish to bring in other third parties before them out of fear of becoming too repetitive with character choices (or something along those lines).

I’m really not in the mood to get into another dumb internet argument right now, so I guess let’s just agree to disagree. If there’s one thing I’ll say it’s that I wish I had the level of confidence you do with your speculation, because to me there’s no way to be so certain of anything so early on.

dream1ng · Nov 8, 2021

ForsakenM said:
The thing is about this is that...well, are there REALLY that many characters that are more popular in general? This is why I see 2B being the only contender in this regard because Geno just keeps swelling to the point where everyone who talks Smash on social media has to bring him up regardless how they feel about him, but you really don't see this happening with other characters Square has outside of the ones we got in already.

Now sure, still kinda talking about Smash here, but I will get to general popularity...even though talking about the Ballot is much more important. Thinking upon the Ballot and how we know know that mock polls are at least in the ballpark for results so long as they aren't things like that Reddit one where the TF2 fans botted the poll, we can compare notes to get an idea of how well Cloud placed in the Ballot and by extension how Sephiroth and other beloved FF characters placed.

By Sakurai's own words, Cloud got the majority of the FF-related votes/requests, and Sakurai estimates it to be between a fourth and a third of all the FF votes/requests were for Cloud. This likely means Sakurai was stating that Cloud was the most-requested FF character, which make sense. However, if he got THAT MANY off the FF votes in the Ballot, this would suggest that every other FF character placed relatively low in comparison, just based on how fractions and dividing things up works. When you then consider that FF has many characters people love other than Cloud like Sephiroth, Terra, Noctis, Tidus, Yuna, Squall, Tifa, Black Mage, Lightning...the list goes on for a while, so you need to divide the other three-fourths to two-thirds of all of those votes between them all.

I would find it incredibly likely that Sephiroth was the second-most voted, but we don't know that for sure, but what we do know is that each of these characters likely placed low on the Ballot overall and that dragged Cloud down some as well. This isn't a situation where 90-100% of KH fans are voting for Sora (giving leeway for like 10% who may have wanted Riku instead): this is a longer-running franchise that has multiple protagonists, and Cloud got between 25 and 33.3% of all the FF votes. Logically, this means that fanbases who only support mostly one character could come out in slightly less or equal numbers and still get their character to have more votes than Cloud or any other FF character in the Ballot. When you factor in what you said about Sora being the only exception to Geno being the most requested Square character for Smash, it's just another factor that points to Geno doing a lot better in the Ballot than I think even Geno fans believe.

But, let's go to more public popular opinion.

It's true that Geno isn't as mainstream as other Square characters, this is just a fact of life when you are a one-off character from a franchise that had one game and then died because companies are stupid sometimes. Had things been different, he could easily be a much more popular character and maybe have already had crossovers in other Square franchises, but alas, here we are. Thus, there are many other Square characters more popular than Geno in the mainstream. Pretty sure every big character from Life Is Strange falls under this, as it's popular with the public for reasons I don't understand since I never touched the game. I'm sure nearly every FF protag and their party members are publicly more popular so long as they have staying power, and I know for a fact that 2B is massively popular for a whole bunch of reasons...but when people bring up Lara Croft or Neku, I feel like they aren't being entirely honest with their popularity.

Let's start with Crono. People really love Trigger and nobody ever talks about Cross, but the series has gotten nothing but ports for a very long time...much like SMRPG. Both of these characters come from a niche RPG series that have been dead for a while, and both of them are relatively popular now as cult classics due to the praise given to them by people who played them when they grew up mixed with a smaller amount of people playing them in current times, and they both have request to be in Smash for very similar reasons. I feel the only difference here is that here is Geno and SMRPG is just MORE of all of that in more recent times and has been much more than that in the Smash fandom for some time. If you would have asked me five or ten years ago if the public talks more about Chrono Trigger or SMRPG, I would have easily said Chrono Trigger...but it's not as clear cut as it used to be. It's for this reason I think Crono will likely get something in Smash eventually just like Geno, though I'm not sure what or when: it's the same situation, it's just that us Geno fans have been pushing harder for longer and that is having a clear affect.

Now for Neku. Hoo boy, people really try to hype up TWEWY but I did my research and it is incredibly niche. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big advocate of 'sales figures don't mean everything, nor does it mean much at all' but if we are talking about general popularity then it does matter: if a game didn't sell very well, odds are it's not very popular or it's old and sales numbers were different. TWEWY was a DS game and was considered to be the best RPG on the DS and one of the greatest DS games, and yet the numbers I'm finding seem rather low: from what I can find (feel free to provide better sources if you find them) is that it sold around 200,000 units in Japan and about 140,000 in the US and 20,000 in Europe. These are numbers registered during the months following the games release in each country, so I'm sure the numbers are a bit higher than that overall

Now, I KNOW that 2007/2008 and 1996 are completely different eras, but the DS was making Nintendo so much money it was ridiculous and basically EVERY KID had a DS. So, to only sell around that much seems a little strange, I guess it just wasn't all that popular. Contrast this with SMRPG that sold 1.47 million units in Japan and likely broke 500,000 units in the US while being the 6th highest selling SNES game that year and being the most-rented game (Yes, people used to rent games. It was Earlier Times back then.) for 14 weeks straight. I'll admit SMRPG had Mario to give it that push, for sure, but both of these games were seemingly setup for massive success and TWEWY just was not well-received by the public despite all it's accolades. The crazy thing is that it seems consistent with the series: NEO was super hyped up by TWEWY fans and yet while we have no official numbers, it did not do very well in it's opening week at all. It even had an anime to promote the game, which I've also seen people complaining that it was too rushed and suffers in quality and cutting out way too much of the story and character moments. This leads me to believe that TWEWY really isn't all that popular in the public gaming sphere and may be even more niche than Chrono Trigger/Cross or SMRPG.

And now, good ol' polygons herself, Lara Croft. She also debuted in 1996, funny that. Sure, the games were popular and probably fun to play, but she IS iconic for her booba and that is something that needs to be said. Now I know she wasn't popular only for that, but it definitely was a big part of it initially: she's a big booba sexy badass ***** who kicks ass, takes names, and does everything else Indiana Jones does but leaves young boys drooling in the process. I think she's dope and I also think she is a big part of gaming culture, whether people may view that for better or worse, but she definitely fell off massively in public popularity over the years until her big reboot in 2013. Before then the game sales were quite low and her franchise was in hibernation for five years, and now she comes back but she's next to nothing like what she used to be in terms of her design. The reboot was a massive success, like MASSIVE success, but it seems like something happened with the next two installments because they tanked in sales in comparison. I vaguely remember some sort of controversy over the most recent game in the series, but I have no idea what it was about. And now, history repeats itself with Lara having another 5-year hibernation with no new titles.

Contrast all of this with 2B, who has been getting nothing but new games on lots of platforms and a buttload of crossovers in other popular media. Clearly, 2B dominates the space of public popularity for Square characters outside of merhaps someone from Life Is Strange. This is why I find her to be a serious contender for Geno in terms of who gets into the next Smash game from Square.

I'll end this portion of discussion with a single image that wrecks the argument of public popularity being a sole major factor.

It's part of the process, but not the most important to be sure. It matter more for DLC than it does for the main game as well, and I think Geno could get in a base game when you look at how much content from SMRPG got into base Ultimate, so Geno not being that big in the public eye doesn't really stop him at all.

I disagree entirely, because while Capcom does have a big list it tends to end up mostly being within the same franchise that they have already heavily represented, which is why the only big contenders for Capcom are DMC and Ace Attorney. Monster Hunter is big, but as I've said many times, the monster are what represents the series and not the hunters, and I feel as though RE could have a chance but it depends on how fun and unique of a moveset they can make when each playable character is just using a variety of firearms and a knife. Made the work in MvC though, so I have faith it could be done.

Also Square just makes too many beloved characters and Sakurai is friend with Nomura, so I doubt they will miss out in the next title.

Yes, yes there are that many Square characters that are more popular in general. Geno's popularity is isolated to a subset of the online portion of the Smash fanbase. And not just popularity, but to a not-insignificant extent, familiarity. That is going to put any character that actually resonates widely among the general gaming populace or outside of pure internet dwellings above him, which is everyone from Lara Croft to Crono, from Tifa or any halfway popular FF protag to 2B, from Slime to Space Invader.

The number of people who would say "who?" to Geno is almost everyone not attuned to Smash speculation, while the number of "who?"s you'd get with any of those other characters would not rank nearly as plentiful. Some of those characters are very, very well known.

And frankly if Geno seems even close to any of those characters in terms of general gaming-wide popularity and familiarity, it's indicative of having spent way too much time in the Smash bubble.

Also, some self-awareness might be in order if you're going to hold lack of recent titles against Lara Croft while pushing for Geno. The series isn't even dormant, it got a title three years ago - and games are coming to the Switch next year. Geno hasn't had a non-cameo appearance in twenty-five years.

Also that Sakurai quote means nothing unless you're to suggest those aforementioned Square characters wouldn't be fun to play. It also pretty much invalidates that novella you wrote about Neku and Crono's nicheness if you're then just going to follow it up with what you believe that quote to mean.

Geno Boost · Nov 8, 2021

Popularity isn’t everything needed to be included in smash.
the demands and the support is a bigger factor but sometimes it doesn’t need any they could just explore a concept and we have seen it happen many times already

ForsakenM · Nov 8, 2021

DaybreakHorizon said:
If you think I have nothing better to do than follow you around, read your posts, and memorize any details then I’m sorry to disappoint you because I don’t. I honestly have better things to do, and I don’t believe that calling me on that is the zinger insult you thought it was. I’m incredibly disinterested in new Smash speculation, and only came in to discuss my thoughts on Square because it’s something I’ve put a lot of research into personally. Otherwise, I stick to the Social Thread and never venture out unless summoned or incredibly compelled to.

I know you only mentioned Capcom, but I brought up other companies to emphasize the point that Smash speculation is inherently a zero-sum game. There are only so many characters added every game, and there are so many characters that are “beloved” that Square having 2-3 really isn’t too special, especially considering that their most popular characters are…already in the game.

Sure, Square is a close business partner to Nintendo, but what seriously differentiates them from Capcom, who’s given Nintendo countless exclusives over the years, or Ubisoft or Koei Tecmo, who’ve been handed the reigns of Nintendo’s precious first party IPs multiple times? Sakurai and Nomura’s relationship is a thing sure, but leveraging that precludes that Nintendo (and Sakurai assuming he’s the director of the next game—which isn’t a definite) would go for another Square Enix character where that relationship could be leveraged.

The question I’m asking is why Square Enix at this point? At best they have the same case to be made as multiple other companies, and at worst they got major representation in Smash Ultimate DLC (3/11 characters, over 25%) that Nintendo might legitimately wish to bring in other third parties before them out of fear of becoming too repetitive with character choices (or something along those lines).

I’m really not in the mood to get into any dumb internet arguments right now, so I guess let’s just agree to disagree. If there’s one thing I’ll say it’s that I wish I had the level of confidence you do with your speculation, because to me there’s no way to be so certain of anything so early on.

Yet again, another assumption that I was trying to insult you instead of just making a simple poke or jab in jest. I add comedy to the majority of my posts because otherwise it kinda gets boring talking about the same points to the same people. I wouldn't expect people that I converse with consistently to remember what I have said in the past...I mean, I would and do, but there is a difference between people I talk to in person with every day and someone I talk to occasionally online. Though, I will say that if you made just a bit more effort, you probably could have done just that. Also, implying you have to borderline obsess over someone to remember their opinions is rather odd, as I only talk to you guys here and rarely think about what is said here out in my daily life, and yet if someone randomly brought up your name a month from now because you potentially leaked something or whatever my response would probably be 'DaybreakHorizon? Isn't that the guy that changed his name on the forums from something pony-related and was really confident in Sora being CP11 when others were rather dismissive?' or whatever your most recent statement in my memory was.

Same thing if someone mentioned

DarthEnderX randomly, I would probably say 'Isn't that the guy who makes really sassy comments that I'm 50/50 on and wants Kunio from River City Ransom or whatever in Smash?'

Opossum Would probably be 'That Starfy and Hotel whatever guy' or how JudgeHeihachi thinks I'm obsessed with him because I had a laugh at his expense and can remember him as the 'pushing Heihachi in the Geno Thread' guy despite rarely ever thinking about him. I don't really pay attention to what you guys do outside of this thread or the old Newcomer Thread, but when I read your posts I remember these things. I dunno, I guess I'll blame the Autism on hard-sticking on those details. Maybe it's more difficult to remember people and what they say than it find it to be.

I also realize that your comment was about other companies in general, so since YOU were talking about more than just Capcom and Square, you assumed I was as well. I corrected that and gave an explanation on why I think Capcom got passed over and why that wouldn't apply to Square in a new Smash game. That's really all that happened in this exchange.

To properly address YOUR argument though, I do think lots of companies are open for business when it comes to getting Smash characters. I won't list any because I want my big post to have that impact, but I don't disagree with any of the companies you've brought up save for maybe Valve and Ubisoft, and that is only based on certain factors that make me believe they are less likely but not out of the question.

My response to 'Why Square at this point' is simply the opposite: Why not Square at this point? They are already proven to work with Nintendo and Sakurai, they still have many IPs that people love and want characters from, and the relationship is strong both between companies and individual relationships. Just because Square has four characters in Smash doesn't mean they can't get more or should be sidelined entirely to focus on other companies. I honestly can't tell you why Capcom didn't get a character outside of Ken, but I can tell you I felt like that pattern would continue for a long time until I let people convince me that they HAD to get a character. Sure, that could happen to Square, but I feel like the actual result will be that both companies will get more characters in the next title rather than Square getting none at all. The only thing I can say is that the Dante hype just came way too late, but I think it came at the perfect time for the next Smash title.

Also, I just want some honesty from you real quick if you do decide to respond: do you think that getting Cloud, DQ Crew, Sephy and Sora means that people won't want more from them or that Nintendo or Sakurai won't be aware of that or will be but decide against that? More importantly than that I want to know from you, since you are clearly all about Sora and I assume still an active KH fan unlike myself, if you thought it was possible would you now root for another KH character to get in Smash?

I ask this because I think the answer leads to you being a little bit misleading in the 'Square having 2-3' area of your post. Within JUST the KH fandom, don't you think people will now ask for Riku, Kairi, Roxas, Axel, Xion, Aqua, Ventus, Terra or even deeper picks like Xemnas, Master Eraqus, Ansem Seeker of Darkness or Xehanort himself to get in or at least push support for them? That's not even counting the possible dedication to any single Organization XIII member who are all beloved as well. KH on it's own destroys this 'Square having 2-3' notion you brought up, and that's not bringing up any series that Square owns that only really has one supported choice like Geno, 2B, Lara Croft, Neku or Crono...and I REALLY don't want to have to list all the popular FF characters again. I don't know what kind of support some of these other titles have in the Smash Sphere, but you have characters rom Octopath Traveler, Bravely Default, and Triangle Strategy is a game that will be out and have beloved characters before we get a new Smash. As

dream1ng just mentioned (which I'll get to in a response, but I'm focusing on just the lad Daybreak right now) you also got the legacy of Space Invader, but the also have the Mana series, SaGa series, Hitman and Legacy of Kain which all have various levels of popularity...and with Sora's inclusion, support for any and all of these might go up, and that's if there wasn't support there already.

When you contrast this with companies like Microsoft who had to buy other companies to get icons people love and really only have Chief to call their own or how Koei Tecmo really only has Hayabusa, a handful of hot babes from Dead or Alive and maybe a few Warriors characters...Konami has Raiden, Bomberman, Frogger and Alucard/more Castlevania...etcetera etcetera.

My argument isn't that these companies have no characters to choose from, that was never the case. My argument is that some companies like Square just have a boatload of them that are all popular and beloved while some like Microsoft are more like what you said with actually only having a handful.

However, this discussion doesn't end here. There are many things to consider, like what I'll have to response to

dream1ng about in regards to moveset potential, how both companies feel about presentation of their IPs (a couple characters with stages, an AT and some Spirits may be enough in their eyes), how hardball companies play in negotiations, what kind of promotions can be made...there are so many things to factor in to what companies get worked with for which characters it's a massive headache. I'm surprised Sakurai look as young as he does. This is why I said I have ideas about why Capcom got no other characters but Square got a bunch, but that I don't know for sure why the decisions were made. I'm sure you don't want to get into all of that based on your disinterest in our current conversation as well as speculation as a whole, but I do try to factor all these things in. I'm not always right about any of it, but since I try to consider all possibilities and try to think from multiple angles of those involved in the process, I have more confidence in what I say.

If I'm wrong, oh well, I did my best to try and be right but I'm not working on Smash so I couldn't possibly know until Sakurai comes out and says why. I also find trying to get to the bottom of things fun, and I know it's early but I think there are already things to talk about, so I will. Really all there is to it.

Oh, and by the way, I hope you are seriously enjoying Sora. I've very much distanced myself from the series and I enjoyed the inclusion for a couple matches, but now I'm pretty much over it...but since you were big on it, I hope that you are getting much more happiness out of the inclusion. It's weird to me how Sora getting in was seen as impossible and yet I'm less blown away by it than Ridley, K. Rool or Banjo, but I suppose feelings don't always make sense. You fought for it and you got it, so I hope it's what you wanted and then some. It's been crazy seeing lots of people melt into puddles of tears over his reveal, really shows how you guys have fought for it over the years. Here's for waiting for my turn to experience that with Geno and being a 30-something-year-old-man absolutely bluthering in tears on a reaction video in the somewhat-near future.

dream1ng · Nov 8, 2021

Geno Boost said:
Popularity isn’t everything needed to be included in smash.
the demands and the support is a bigger factor but sometimes it doesn’t need any they could just explore a concept and we have seen it happen many times already

If you want to look at the DLC for Ultimate, actual Smash demand was only really responsible for two of the twelve characters. The rest of the third-parties, at least, were included seemingly because they were just generally notable entities in gaming.

Base played out a little differently, but if we're mostly focused on third-parties, that seems the more pertinent phase to focus on.

Shroob · Nov 8, 2021

NiER's a series horribly slept on tbh. I remember it was only in like, 2019 or 2020 that a Square rep at TGS was calling NiER it's 3rd pillar series alongside Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, or something to that degree.

It went from an extremely niche series to just, blowing up with Automata, and that popularity's only grown since. Much like how I'd pin MC as the next obvious Microsoft rep, I'd pin 2B, or someone from Nier, as the next obvious SE rep, even above someone like Lara Croft at this point.

dream1ng · Nov 8, 2021

Shroob said:
NiER's a series horribly slept on tbh. I remember it was only in like, 2019 or 2020 that a Square rep at TGS was calling NiER it's 3rd pillar series alongside Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, or something to that degree.

It went from an extremely niche series to just, blowing up with Automata, and that popularity's only grown since.

Nier/2B will probably become a more recognized contender once a game comes to Switch. Not that that's a requisite for popularity, but if you look at other not entirely Nintendo-related series, like Doom, Crash Bandicoot, and Devil May Cry, coming to Switch helped in popularity quite a bit.

Though 2B is already a fairly popular request in Japan, from what I recall.

Yamat08 · Nov 8, 2021

So a few pages back, I was bringing up KOS-MOS and her rather bizarre lack of so much as a cameo. Factoring in just the companies already involved, are there any third party (or even first party) characters that you find to be particularly glaring omissions, be it as a Fighter or otherwise?

I guess most of Final Fantasy is worth a mention, but that supposedly has the excuse of being one big legal quagmire, with VII alone being some huge undertaking (though with VII Remake, I'm guessing Squenix managed to regulate some of the rights to that particular entry fairly recently, and if such is the case, I'm hoping the Pixel Remaster Collection spells good news for the early Nintendo titles). Square Enix has, however, gotten quite a few Spirit Board events. Granted, they're mostly just to promote some of their more recent releases, but I find the Trials of Mana one particularly noteworthy (Riesz appears to have remained a fairly high-profile waifu for all the decades that Seiken Densetsu 3 was a Japan-only title, so it seems kinda nice that she was able to make it into Smash in some form).

Phoenix Wright is missing, but otherwise, Capcom seems fairly well-repped even outside of the series represented by Fighters (Ghosts N' Goblins, Resident Evil, and Monster Hunter, just off the top of my head). Same goes for SNK, to the point that Terry seems more like "the SNK rep" than he is "the Fatal Fury rep". Sega, however, seems really lacking in anything outside of Sonic and Bayonetta (and Persona by virtue of their Atlus acquisition), which is a shame considering they've got a lot of long-lived, recognizeable franchises (with Arle in particular being a pretty big request throughout the recent DLC cycle). To be fair, though, it often seems like Sega themselves often forget that a lot of these IPs even exist.

dream1ng · Nov 8, 2021

Yamat08 said:
So a few pages back, I was bringing up KOS-MOS and her rather bizarre lack of so much as a cameo. Factoring in just the companies already involved, are there any third party (or even first party) characters that you find to be particularly glaring omissions, be it as a Fighter or otherwise?

I guess most of Final Fantasy is worth a mention, but that supposedly has the excuse of being one big legal quagmire, with VII alone being some huge undertaking (though with VII Remake, I'm guessing Squenix managed to regulate some of the rights to that particular entry fairly recently, and if such is the case, I'm hoping the Pixel Remaster Collection spells good news for the early Nintendo titles). Square Enix has, however, gotten quite a few Spirit Board events. Granted, they're mostly just to promote some of their more recent releases, but I find the Trials of Mana one particularly noteworthy (Riesz appears to have remained a fairly high-profile waifu for all the decades that Seiken Densetsu 3 was a Japan-only title, so it seems kinda nice that she was able to make it into Smash in some form).

Phoenix Wright is missing, but otherwise, Capcom seems fairly well-repped even outside of the series represented by Fighters (Ghosts N' Goblins, Resident Evil, and Monster Hunter, just off the top of my head). Same goes for SNK, to the point that Terry seems more like "the SNK rep" than he is "the Fatal Fury rep". Sega, however, seems really lacking in anything outside of Sonic and Bayonetta (and Persona by virtue of their Atlus acquisition), which is a shame considering they've got a lot of long-lived, recognizeable franchises (with Arle in particular being a pretty big request throughout the recent DLC cycle). To be fair, though, it often seems like Sega themselves often forget that a lot of these IPs even exist.

The ones that come to mind are Ryu Hayabusa's complete lack of any appearance despite the KT's existing presence and close relationship with Nintendo, TWEWY not getting a spirit event after games like Octopath, Bravely and Mana did, and, to a lesser extent, Microsoft being on board yet not getting what seems like an obvious inclusion with a Master Chief gunner costume, if he couldn't be playable. Maybe it wasn't worth the cost; we didn't actually get any MS series apart from the two playable ones (Bethesda notwithstanding). To that end, it's unfortunate we didn't get anything else Rare-wise.

It's also a bit strange they went with Altair instead of Ezio as the costume.

FF being relegated to 7 is probably a matter of licensing costs. Taking more from other games probably would've greatly increased the cost.

Nabbitfan730 · Nov 8, 2021

DarthEnderX said:
Another Sonic or Street Fighter character is definitely possible. And I think Zero, Alucard and Raiden all have a shot.

Odds go up if we're counting echoes.

Agreed. Also NOW is the time to show character support for the next Smash. After the next Smash is announced, it's too late, the characters have already been decided.

Next Smash should be an entire subforum. And when the next Smash does get announced, you can just rename the subforum.

**** 'em. I don't care how unlikely people tell me Kunio is. Imma let my retro flag fly!

I have video evidence:

How Sephiroth Got In Smash 🗡️

My boy.. Look how they massacred my boy..Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/terminalmontageMerchandise for sale here! https://terminalmontagemerchportal.weebly...

www.youtube.com

As a Sonic fan myself, I'm going to say another rep from the series is highly unlikely especially when in Ultimate there were so much golden opportunity to the rep the series such as having Shadow, which would've been a prime candidate for Echo Fighters, Knuckles already take his place as AT, Ultimate Life Form for the Ultimate Smash, just regulated as another AT and with Sonic's 30th Anniversary happening this year with deals happening with other games yet Smash, a prime candidate for this sort of thing, once again missing opportunity which would be perfect.

Honestly disappointed with Shadow's dismal as much as Geno, if not more so as you can't even used that relevance/popularity/25 years against him either. I guess it's because Sonic isn't popular in Japan and Sakurai and Nintendo don't really care for the series which is a sham and I guess Sega would rep their other franchises instead of their main mascot, Sega always does silly decisions with Sonic and nothing else.

Also yeah, I agree why were the support threads anyways? I always thought the threads were tied to the characters instead of the respective smash games that are recent. Also I agree support threads would make things easier separately than in one hodgepodge. I had something in mind cooking up for the support thread to participate in to keep the support going but it's going much harder if we were smudged together than speaking to one thread individually.

osby said:
I honestly don't see what makes Mickey inevitable other than "it would be a big crossover".

Smash doesn't even try to license the biggest video game franchises for the sake of licensing them. It's even less likely for them to try and go beyond the video games for the sake of... what, really?

You're appealing to the new video game fans and creating cross-promotion opportunities by adding third-party characters. By adding Mickey, you would appeal to people who know who he is, which is about everyone. If someone is passionate about him and plays games, chances are that Sora already attracts them. Nintendo doesn't really have much to gain from putting Mickey in Smash, especially when you consider just how controlling Disney would be in terms of his implementation.

If the next Smash adds playable characters from GTA, FIFA, and CoD just because they make big numbers, I may be convinced that Nintendo cares about huge-ness above all else. Until then, I think Mickey is just a meme some people take too seriously like Goku.

As cool as and hype-inducing it would be for my favourite animanga to get repped in the Smash, unless its a Smash vs Shonen Jump type deal or a final bonus character that ends the Smash Game, I wouldn't want Goku in either. Another reason I'm not a fan of this "Popularity rules all" people keep pushing. Are we really going to sacrifice identity and vision of the franchise people are clinging onto just for the sake of big names? I don't like "celebration of gaming" myself but at least that has a limit and identity to aim for that it's just video games and that's it.

The second point is what it also why say to these people, if popularity is all to end all, why did characters such Tekken, Fatal Fury and Kingdom Hearts get over GTA, FIFA and COD? The latter are much more bigger games that latter in popularity and relevancy so what's stopping Nintendo from doing that? Why have Sora when we can have Tetris Block? Why have Gaming when you have media that is popular? Who cares if Smash was about Nintendo's History and seeing your favourite characters fight, Popularity is all that matters right? Smash Bros? More like Super Popularity Bros amrite?

ForsakenM said:
Again with the example I gave with @Delzethin if you were making a game of your own and your community wanted Foreman Spike and you actually approached Nintendo for guest characters in your game, would you still pursue Foreman Spike if it became clear Nintendo was willing to have Mario or Link show up in your game?

To break it down further, in this scenario, Foreman Spike is what your community is asking for, but Mario or Link is a much more popular choice that would please and attract more people than Foreman Spike would please within your community. Do you sacrifice that amazing opportunity?

Also, you have no backing for your assumption about Square working with Nintendo around Geno. In fact, all the evidence is against that idea that they wouldn't cooperate. For starters, we never would have gotten the original Mii Costume in Smash 4 if Square didn't cooperate, nor Beware The Forest's Mushrooms to play for both trailers. We also got Spirits of both Geno and Mallow in base Ultimate as well as an icon well before the return of the costume, and Piranha Plant's Palutena's Guidance refers to both Chewies and Smilax/Megasmilax which are both variations of Piranha Plant unique to SMRPG. if working with Geno or what Square owns from SMRPG was a problem, none of this would have been able to happen.

If the game I making is around Foreman Spike and the fans and audience want Foreman Spike then I'm getting Foreman Spike not matter what? Why would I want unrelated characters to aim for a market that not even my own and vice versa I have no interesting in my game whilst burning bridges with those were just for the sake of those names being bigger? It's not like having makes my game a smash hit instantly. Also why sacrifice a unique opportunity to create a new game with a unrecognised character with untapped potential where I build upon for popularity and ideas Nintendo never could for the sake for another game for franchises that get a dime a dozen games anyways? Don't think you know business as much you think?

You basically saying why create anything new or original as they are bigger names out there

ForsakenM said:
I disagree entirely, because while Capcom does have a big list it tends to end up mostly being within the same franchise that they have already heavily represented, which is why the only big contenders for Capcom are DMC and Ace Attorney. Monster Hunter is big, but as I've said many times, the monster are what represents the series and not the hunters,

Also Square just makes too many beloved characters and Sakurai is friend with Nomura, so I doubt they will miss out in the next title.

Then what's wrong on having monsters as playable characters? Playing the Monsters from MH would be really cool to doo, we don't have monster types characters especially fearsome ones so finally having some would be great to having Smash.

Also Sakurai was friends with Naka and Kojima during Melee at the time too, that didn't Sonic or Snake were automatically locks for Melee nor did it stop Snake being cut from 4.

DaybreakHorizon said:
You also ignored my claim that it'll probably be difficult to get all four of our current Square Enix characters back. Cloud and Sephiroth might not be too hard (though it'll probably cost a lot, and I could see one or both also being DLC), but Hero and Sora both have complicated legal agreements that Nintendo will have to navigate again unless they either:

Don't bring them back entirely (and as of yet Nintendo seemingly always tries to get veterans back and veterans are consistently the most requested characters, either matching or surpassing that of newcomers, so there’s incentive to bringing them back),

or have already negotiated them for the next Smash game (which doesn't fit with the current narrative that Sakurai and Nintendo still need to hash out the future of the series).

Square Enix will probably see most, if not all four of its veterans return. So you're right, they probably won't miss out on the next game. That being said, there's nothing that stands out about Square Enix that makes them inherently more likely to get another character, especially when compared to other third party partners of Nintendo.

Don't think Hero will be that complicated to get in Smash again especially when Nintendo holds rights to publishing overseas. The only problems would be music licensing which won't much of a problem anymore to due to Kochi Sugiyama's unfortunate passing. Honestly the Heroes are actually the easiest and the most likely to return for SE reps for the next game.

Ngl, As much as I rant and seem angry most of time, I do feel a semblance of satisfaction of still being able to talk about Smash and speculation even well after Ultimate's end especially imo, didn't feel all the conclusive with a hole still there.

Yamat08 said:
So a few pages back, I was bringing up KOS-MOS and her rather bizarre lack of so much as a cameo. Factoring in just the companies already involved, are there any third party (or even first party) characters that you find to be particularly glaring omissions, be it as a Fighter or otherwise?

I guess most of Final Fantasy is worth a mention, but that supposedly has the excuse of being one big legal quagmire, with VII alone being some huge undertaking (though with VII Remake, I'm guessing Squenix managed to regulate some of the rights to that particular entry fairly recently, and if such is the case, I'm hoping the Pixel Remaster Collection spells good news for the early Nintendo titles). Square Enix has, however, gotten quite a few Spirit Board events. Granted, they're mostly just to promote some of their more recent releases, but I find the Trials of Mana one particularly noteworthy (Riesz appears to have remained a fairly high-profile waifu for all the decades that Seiken Densetsu 3 was a Japan-only title, so it seems kinda nice that she was able to make it into Smash in some form).

Phoenix Wright is missing, but otherwise, Capcom seems fairly well-repped even outside of the series represented by Fighters (Ghosts N' Goblins, Resident Evil, and Monster Hunter, just off the top of my head). Same goes for SNK, to the point that Terry seems more like "the SNK rep" than he is "the Fatal Fury rep". Sega, however, seems really lacking in anything outside of Sonic and Bayonetta (and Persona by virtue of their Atlus acquisition), which is a shame considering they've got a lot of long-lived, recognizeable franchises (with Arle in particular being a pretty big request throughout the recent DLC cycle). To be fair, though, it often seems like Sega themselves often forget that a lot of these IPs even exist.

I do hope the Pixel Remasters at least still come to Switch. Don't really SE obsession with mobile but oh well. Seems to be a lot of franchises that still could get representation in future Smash games.

DarthEnderX · Nov 8, 2021

ForsakenM said:
Same thing if someone mentioned DarthEnderX randomly

Hmm? Wha-huh?

dream1ng said:
If you want to look at the DLC for Ultimate, actual Smash demand was only really responsible for two of the twelve characters.

That you know of.

Just because Sakurai only mentioned the ballot for two of them doesn't mean the others WEREN'T also from the ballot.

Guynamednelson · Nov 8, 2021

dream1ng said:
If you want to look at the DLC for Ultimate, actual Smash demand was only really responsible for two of the twelve characters. The rest of the third-parties, at least, were included seemingly because they were just generally notable entities in gaming.

Base played out a little differently, but if we're mostly focused on third-parties, that seems the more pertinent phase to focus on.

And why are we focusing on DLC right now? Smash 6 is likely to be several years away anyway, and DLC even more so. Is it because you're going to hate the base selection of newcomers minus one or two?

ForsakenM · Nov 8, 2021

Guynamednelson said:
And why are we focusing on DLC right now? Smash 6 is likely to be several years away anyway, and DLC even more so. Is it because you're going to hate the base selection of newcomers minus one or two?

Gonna disagree and say we are only a couple years away IMO.

Not sure if you guys know this or not, but Furakawa had an investors meeting and was asked about next gen consoles and pressed on the issue when he tried to avoid it. His response was, paraphrasing of course, that 'they are in the planning stages for announcement and release' which, if that doesn't quite click right away, means they are in the planning stages for ANNOUNCING and RELEASING their next gen console and NOT in the planning stages of DESIGNING the next gen console.

In other words, Furakawa might as well have said 'it's a matter of when, not if' which to me means that, much like I already thought, the next gen Switch with 4K and whatnot always was a thing but got leaked way earlier than Nintendo would have liked. They already planned on having a slight update to the Switch with the OLED and everyone did that silly thing again where they disregard good information because it didn't pan out within their own sense of timely expectations.

When we first heard rumblings about it and then the OLED happened, I knew immediately that Nintendo was using this opportunity to convince people there was nothing the works so that they would be more likely to buy the OLED and throw people off their trail. It's mostly worked as well, but I feel like anyone can look at Bayo 3 and 3D Kirby and see that the Switch can barely handle these new games coming out. Nintendo is moving up in software, it's time for the hardware to keep up.

I'm going to toss out some of the other reasons I didn't mention in a previous post that 'Everyone Is Still Here!' is going to be a thing. This meeting with Furakawa confirming there is a next gen console in the works is a big part of it, but I already knew there was one: all this does is let is know they are ready to roll this thing out in the next couple years, so we have a timeframe between 1-3 years left before this happens.

Sakurai's own language in his most recent Famitsu is a big deal. Now, I will insist this here since I think people will make dumb assumptions if I don't, but I'm not saying we have proof Sakurai is already working on a new Smash title. We have no way of knowing that for sure at this point, and I wouldn't say anything otherwise. What I AM saying is that the language Sakurai used is his generic 'this is the last Smash for now and nothing is in the works at the moment' that he has used multiple times in his career. This is very safe and generic language and, more importantly, it's very similar to what he said at the end of Smash 4...you know, when he was already working on Ultimate shortly after? Like, in the planning stages at the very least in early 2016? In other words, Sakurai has done this old dog and pony show before, and the last time he did it he actually was working on Smash already. Thus, he COULD be in the planning stages of another title for a next gen console already and no one would ever be the wiser...well, MOST wouldn't.

What is also important is his language about not thinking anyone can replace what he brings to Smash, which matches up to his interviews with Harada, and his talk about not wanting to disappoint fans and his worry about making cuts. This first part is proof that Sakurai will be at the helm of Smash until he physically cannot do it anymore, so no, he's not retiring...though you may have gotten that already after it hasn't happened since Brawl. The second portion is proof enough TO ME that we will get a glorified port of Ultimate on a next gen console in a couple years, and it will have every single character that has been in the game all the way up to and including Sora. Of course it will have a number of QoL improvements and new features and more characters, but I think it will be largely the same...though I would be more than pleased to be wrong and outside of the roster it gets many massive changes.

One last thing to mention here is that Furakawa is the gamer president where as Kimishima was the businessman president. Sakurai wasn't given the option to delay Ultimate because it was only a couple months from coming out the door by the time Furakawa took charge. However, now Sakurai gets to make a game with a president that seems to be kinder and more understanding and more giving of creative freedom, which could easily mean that Sakurai gets more power back in regards to character choices as well as how DLC is done. Additionally, Furakawa believes that the SNES-Gamecube Era of Nintendo are the best Nintendo has ever been, which gives a big boost to the chances that a lot of these missing characters could and likely will show up in the base game of a Ultimate: Definitive Edition.

I think

pupNapoleon gets to have some credit as he was the one who seemed to really bring back this topic around Sora's announcement, though I most definitely talked about this long before that and was basically asked to turn myself in to the psyche ward. I am very much convinced this is the route they will take, it's just perfectly set up.

Garteam · Nov 8, 2021

I genuinely think getting Hero back might no longer be an issue.

Dragon Quest's rights are split between four parties:

Square-Enix (the publishers): The fact we got three (well, two and Sora, but they still had to be negotiated and consulted with for him so the point stands) Smash characters from Square during Ultimate's DLC shows they are not nearly as Smash-averse as they might have once appeared. Do they prefer their characters get in as DLC? You bet, but there's no way they aren't aware of the brand power and free good publicity that comes with Smash. As such, I definitely think they're going to be more generous with giving content to the base game. I don't see Nintendo having to fight to get Cloud in the launch roster anymore.
Armor Project (the developers): Yuji Horii seems to have been a big proponent internally for getting Dragon Quest in Smash and worked closely with Sakurai to make Hero happen. He's not an issue.
Akira Toriyama's Bird Studio (the owner of the character designs): Toriyama is incredibly liberal when licensing to outside parties. Dragon Ball is merchandised to an almost Garfield level. I don't see this party playing hardball when licensing talks begin
Koichi Sugiyama (the owner of the music): This is always where the issues were. Sugiyama has incredibly stupid rules about licensing his music, effectively stopped Hero from being a base game character last time, and is likely the reason Dragon Quest has eight midis. However, he also died very recently. We have no idea how his estate or those at Sugi Label are going to control the rights, but I'd imagine they are likely going to be far easier to work with than the man himself. It's not like they have new work to profit off of, so stuff like licensing and rereleases is going to be how they're exclusively making money going forward. Additionally, Sugiyama's iron-clad grasp on his property seems to be a product of his... less than savory political beliefs, which are presumably not shared by his estate or associates.

So yeah, two of those parties were never an issue to begin with, one of them has seemingly changed their approach to Smash, and the final party's rights have shifted to new owners who may not be as stingy when licensing. While all of the Square characters are different kinds of legal nightmares, I actually now think Hero is the simplest to get back from a licensing perspective.

Rie Sonomura · Nov 8, 2021

dream1ng said:
The ones that come to mind are Ryu Hayabusa's complete lack of any appearance despite the KT's existing presence and close relationship with Nintendo, TWEWY not getting a spirit event after games like Octopath, Bravely and Mana did, and, to a lesser extent, Microsoft being on board yet not getting what seems like an obvious inclusion with a Master Chief gunner costume, if he couldn't be playable. Maybe it wasn't worth the cost; we didn't actually get any MS series apart from the two playable ones (Bethesda notwithstanding). To that end, it's unfortunate we didn't get anything else Rare-wise.

It's also a bit strange they went with Altair instead of Ezio as the costume.

FF being relegated to 7 is probably a matter of licensing costs. Taking more from other games probably would've greatly increased the cost.

Supposedly we were supposed to get some kind of Jet Force Gemini and Blast Corps content according to the code but that never came to fruition

ceterisparibus · Nov 8, 2021

Wonder Smash said:
Except for me. I never hyped Master Chief for Smash and also never count the skins.

I always say Doom Slayer is a much better choice than Chief.

I don't really agree with this, especially given the trends we've seen with Nintendo in choosing playable characters.
Especially when the DOOM/halo comparisons really does boil down to iconic vs legacy - in which the former almost often wins out when seeing which franchise from a particular genre gets in first.
Not that both couldn't make it in eventually, but there's really little to point towards the latter making it in first as playable.

MarioRaccoon · Nov 8, 2021

Unless there is a huge change in smash mechanics, I think that every character will come back. Probably some third parties will return as DLC, due to license cost.

Nabbitfan730 · Nov 8, 2021

Has anyone seen this vid yet?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Guynamednelson · Nov 8, 2021

ForsakenM said:
Gonna disagree and say we are only a couple years away IMO

Either way, it's gonna be a while before you can really focus on its DLC.

PeridotGX · Nov 8, 2021

I think they should add the Fire type Elite Four member Flint, to promote BDSP. His three Pokemon would be his best fire types: Steelix, Driftblim, and Lopunny.

Will · Nov 8, 2021

PeridotGX said:
I think they should add the Fire type Elite Four member Flint, to promote BDSP. His three Pokemon would be his best fire types: Steelix, Driftblim, and Lopunny.

There's no Fire Pokemon in here and yet the overrepresentation of Fire types continues to grow. :bowsette:

MarioRaccoon · Nov 8, 2021

Next game should gives us small and big battlefield versions of each stage.

So totals stages increases from ~360 to ~600.

Guynamednelson · Nov 8, 2021

MarioRaccoon said:
Next game should gives us small and big battlefield versions of each stage.

So totals stages increases from ~360 to ~600.

If anything I'd rather have them not spend the work on BF/Omega forms. In actual tournaments, competitive players will stick to the default BF/FD anyway, and the same would apply to SBF if every stage had a SBF form.

Will · Nov 8, 2021

MarioRaccoon said:
Next game should gives us small and big battlefield versions of each stage.

So totals stages increases from ~360 to ~600.

The next console's gonna be dying trying to process the game with the number of extra stages no one will ever play except maybe once when you get the wrong ruleset online.

DaybreakHorizon · Nov 8, 2021

PeridotGX said:
I think they should add the Fire type Elite Four member Flint, to promote BDSP. His three Pokemon would be his best fire types: Steelix, Driftblim, and Lopunny.

the most based take in this cursed thread

Opossum · Nov 8, 2021

Yamat08 said:
So a few pages back, I was bringing up KOS-MOS and her rather bizarre lack of so much as a cameo. Factoring in just the companies already involved, are there any third party (or even first party) characters that you find to be particularly glaring omissions, be it as a Fighter or otherwise?

I guess most of Final Fantasy is worth a mention, but that supposedly has the excuse of being one big legal quagmire, with VII alone being some huge undertaking (though with VII Remake, I'm guessing Squenix managed to regulate some of the rights to that particular entry fairly recently, and if such is the case, I'm hoping the Pixel Remaster Collection spells good news for the early Nintendo titles). Square Enix has, however, gotten quite a few Spirit Board events. Granted, they're mostly just to promote some of their more recent releases, but I find the Trials of Mana one particularly noteworthy (Riesz appears to have remained a fairly high-profile waifu for all the decades that Seiken Densetsu 3 was a Japan-only title, so it seems kinda nice that she was able to make it into Smash in some form).

Phoenix Wright is missing, but otherwise, Capcom seems fairly well-repped even outside of the series represented by Fighters (Ghosts N' Goblins, Resident Evil, and Monster Hunter, just off the top of my head). Same goes for SNK, to the point that Terry seems more like "the SNK rep" than he is "the Fatal Fury rep". Sega, however, seems really lacking in anything outside of Sonic and Bayonetta (and Persona by virtue of their Atlus acquisition), which is a shame considering they've got a lot of long-lived, recognizeable franchises (with Arle in particular being a pretty big request throughout the recent DLC cycle). To be fair, though, it often seems like Sega themselves often forget that a lot of these IPs even exist.

I talked about this elsewhere a few days ago, but it's kinda glaring how there's no Taito content whatsoever. Not even Spirits. People might point to them being owned by Square-Enix, but like...they still have spirits for things like SMRPG, Trials of Mana, Octopath, and Bravely Default. So not even getting spirits for things like Arkanoid, Elevator Action, Bubble Bobble, and especially Space Invaders is just strange in retrospect. As far as Japanese arcade game juggernauts of the early days, Taito was up there with Namco, Sega, and Nintendo.

Guynamednelson said:
If anything I'd rather have them not spend the work on BF/Omega forms. In actual tournaments, competitive players will stick to the default BF/FD anyway, and the same would apply to SBF if every stage had a SBF form.

That's a shame. I love BF/Omega forms. Some stages that I'd hate normally become some of my favorites because of them, like 75m. I love the black and pink girder aesthetic and OG DK backdrop, but hate the original stage's layout, so the Battlefield form is perfect for me.

PeridotGX · Nov 8, 2021

Will said:
The next console's gonna be dying trying to process the game with the number of extra stages no one will ever play except maybe once when you get the wrong ruleset online.

Devil's advocate, but if coded right it could be only two extra variants. Take the Battlefield variant, and code parameters to make it lose one (small) or all (FD) platforms. Then Big Battlefield requires it's own thing.

Guynamednelson · Nov 8, 2021

PeridotGX said:
lose one

SBF isn't literally just BF without the top platform. That's one reason why they didn't make SBF versions of every stage in the update that added it.

PeridotGX · Nov 8, 2021

Guynamednelson said:
SBF isn't literally just BF without the top platform. That's one reason why they didn't make SBF versions of every stage in the update that added it.

They could either change that or add the blast zone and size dimensions in the parameters. It doesn't seem too conceptually hard.

Wonder Smash · Nov 8, 2021

ceterisparibus said:
I don't really agree with this, especially given the trends we've seen with Nintendo in choosing playable characters.
Especially when the DOOM/halo comparisons really does boil down to iconic vs legacy - in which the former almost often wins out when seeing which franchise from a particular genre gets in first.
Not that both couldn't make it in eventually, but there's really little to point towards the latter making it in first as playable.

DOOM has both the iconic status and legacy, so that's not a real problem for it. Also, as of right now, neither Master Chief or a Halo game has ever been on Nintendo consoles and if this doesn't change, then Doom Slayer will indeed make it in over him. Being a Mii costume could very well lead to that too.

Oracle Link · Nov 8, 2021

7NATOR said:
-Bandana Dee is an Interesting Case

Part of me is thinking that Sakurai is not interested in Bandana Dee, not because he is a Character that found prominence in the Kirby games after he left the Series, but because it might seem Sakurai finds Bandana Dee himself uninteresting of a character to add to a Game like Smash

Of course that idea is Somewhat subjective, and the idea itself is not really substantiated by evidence, but if it turned out to be the case, that wouldn't be good for Dee because Sakurai's Subjectivity affects how the game is developed.

As Someone that doesn't find Bandana Dee Interesting like that, I could at least say he could offer an Unique Game plan of being a Small character that focuses on Mid-Range. We actually don't really have characters like that to my Knowledge, as the Other Smaller characters with Range kind of have Stubby range, even if they have a Sword

But Sakurai might not be down for that, and I think even though Bandana Dee is both a relevant character to his Series and a very Requested characters on both East and West, he might not actually go for him

-Which brings me to Another Topic I had. Considering that Ultimate added in the Most Requested characters, Including the Number one Requested character (Sora), Part of me is thinking that Fan Demand, while it's still gonna matter, is gonna die down in terms of Importance

Sakurai Himself notes that for every character that he adds in, another Character will take their place in terms of Requests, and the Requests will never stop. I think with that, that's why I think Sakurai is not gonna put as much Emphasis on Fan Demand as he did with Ultimate's Base game, or with Banjo and Sora in the DLC

I think More Emphasis will be put on Expanding The Crossover in terms of New Franchises and such, which correlates with Expanding the Audience, as well as Representing some if Nintendo's Evergreen titles that Audiences on Nintendo are Currently playing. I also think that New Gameplay Ideas or Uniqueness is gonna be a bigger factor for characters to get in considering that With not only with pretty much the whole Library of Video Game being Available to Smash, but also the Amount of characters that need to be Balanced against One new Inclusion, Characters these days have requirements to add as Much new flavor to the Smash gameplay

-On that note, in the Case of Geno, the Unique Abilities and Mechanics he has is the main reason think he could still be in the running for being in the Roster. Being Requested definitely helps, but I think if he didn't have such Unique flavor to him I would say he's very unlikely to get in

One thing I was thinking about is that if Geno still isn't in as a True Playable character, he could be the Ultimate Demonstration of the expansion of Mii Fighters. Perhaps Mii Fighters could have New Specials added based of Characters that weren't able to be on the Playable roster but able to get Mii's, and if Geno isn't Playable, I could see him having some of his Iconic moves like Geno Beam, Geno Whirl, etc added in as Specials.

-Perhaps I have too much confidence in the Idea of Mickey happening. I'll still consider it somewhat of a Plausible idea, but I will refrain from calling it a Matter of time

But we still need some kirby and zelda representation! and if were talking about interesting evergreens including Dark matter
This guy:

would be a great choice for a kirby rep!

When it comes to mickey i knew that 4th party arguments would start as soon as sora is in so yeah my disliking of sora was pretty reasonable!
(also im 100% sure that sakurai choose to not have any disney stuff in!)

When it comes to the New franchises thing my opinion is: Having less franchises creates more variety! after all if a new franchise is included the only logical choice is a main Character (min min and kazuya do count) meaning the roster feels more samey and less iconic battles like Mario vs Bowser or Kirby vs dedede can happen!

When it comes to geno most of his moves are pretty generic i arguee mallow has a more interesting moveset! its mostly his puupet aesthetic that draws people in! but to be fair adding more attacks to mii fighters would be nice although i think it should be attacks from the Base chars! i just want some really indepth mii customization!

DarthEnderX · Nov 8, 2021

PeridotGX said:
I think they should add the Fire type Elite Four member Flint, to promote BDSP.

I think they should never do another trainer again.

Spending THREE characters worth of dev resources to give us one Pokemon fighter? It's bad enough we always have to get an obligatory Pokemon rep, without making it cost us 2 extra characters...

Guynamednelson said:
If anything I'd rather have them not spend the work on BF/Omega forms.

You mean the no work that that takes?

Yamat08 · Nov 8, 2021

PeridotGX said:
Devil's advocate, but if coded right it could be only two extra variants. Take the Battlefield variant, and code parameters to make it lose one (small) or all (FD) platforms. Then Big Battlefield requires it's own thing.

I agree with Small Battlefield. I imagine it'd be fairly easy to just program any stage to simply remove the top platform (and slightly alter the position of the other two platforms). Not sure about Big Battlefield, though. Could all stages get by with increasing the size of the ground platform without other adjustments, or would some of them just look awkward doing that? But if it is more of an effort that it "requires its own thing", then they probably shouldn't bother (especially given the unpopularity of giant stages in general).

7NATOR · Nov 8, 2021

I think alot of the Weird Omissions of Certain Franchises or Characters from any sort of Representation is due to certain factors

-Nintendo Not going Balls to the Wall in terms of Licensing. even though Spirits are PNGs, there's assumingly still Licensing costs and the need for the 3rd party to Sign off on it. Plus remember they need to Create Spirit battles too, which needs 3rd party Approval for how it goes.

-They are saving some of the Licensing for Certain Characters for the Next Smash game, or Ultimate Continuation game. Some might be for Playable characters on the Base roster, meaning they need to be made sure they have the Negotiations down for the Project Plan. Some might be for Assists or Mii Costumes, and etc

ForsakenM said:
Gonna disagree and say we are only a couple years away IMO.

Not sure if you guys know this or not, but Furakawa had an investors meeting and was asked about next gen consoles and pressed on the issue when he tried to avoid it. His response was, paraphrasing of course, that 'they are in the planning stages for announcement and release' which, if that doesn't quite click right away, means they are in the planning stages for ANNOUNCING and RELEASING their next gen console and NOT in the planning stages of DESIGNING the next gen console.

In other words, Furakawa might as well have said 'it's a matter of when, not if' which to me means that, much like I already thought, the next gen Switch with 4K and whatnot always was a thing but got leaked way earlier than Nintendo would have liked. They already planned on having a slight update to the Switch with the OLED and everyone did that silly thing again where they disregard good information because it didn't pan out within their own sense of timely expectations.

When we first heard rumblings about it and then the OLED happened, I knew immediately that Nintendo was using this opportunity to convince people there was nothing the works so that they would be more likely to buy the OLED and throw people off their trail. It's mostly worked as well, but I feel like anyone can look at Bayo 3 and 3D Kirby and see that the Switch can barely handle these new games coming out. Nintendo is moving up in software, it's time for the hardware to keep up.

I'm going to toss out some of the other reasons I didn't mention in a previous post that 'Everyone Is Still Here!' is going to be a thing. This meeting with Furakawa confirming there is a next gen console in the works is a big part of it, but I already knew there was one: all this does is let is know they are ready to roll this thing out in the next couple years, so we have a timeframe between 1-3 years left before this happens.

Sakurai's own language in his most recent Famitsu is a big deal. Now, I will insist this here since I think people will make dumb assumptions if I don't, but I'm not saying we have proof Sakurai is already working on a new Smash title. We have no way of knowing that for sure at this point, and I wouldn't say anything otherwise. What I AM saying is that the language Sakurai used is his generic 'this is the last Smash for now and nothing is in the works at the moment' that he has used multiple times in his career. This is very safe and generic language and, more importantly, it's very similar to what he said at the end of Smash 4...you know, when he was already working on Ultimate shortly after? Like, in the planning stages at the very least in early 2016? In other words, Sakurai has done this old dog and pony show before, and the last time he did it he actually was working on Smash already. Thus, he COULD be in the planning stages of another title for a next gen console already and no one would ever be the wiser...well, MOST wouldn't.

What is also important is his language about not thinking anyone can replace what he brings to Smash, which matches up to his interviews with Harada, and his talk about not wanting to disappoint fans and his worry about making cuts. This first part is proof that Sakurai will be at the helm of Smash until he physically cannot do it anymore, so no, he's not retiring...though you may have gotten that already after it hasn't happened since Brawl. The second portion is proof enough TO ME that we will get a glorified port of Ultimate on a next gen console in a couple years, and it will have every single character that has been in the game all the way up to and including Sora. Of course it will have a number of QoL improvements and new features and more characters, but I think it will be largely the same...though I would be more than pleased to be wrong and outside of the roster it gets many massive changes.

One last thing to mention here is that Furakawa is the gamer president where as Kimishima was the businessman president. Sakurai wasn't given the option to delay Ultimate because it was only a couple months from coming out the door by the time Furakawa took charge. However, now Sakurai gets to make a game with a president that seems to be kinder and more understanding and more giving of creative freedom, which could easily mean that Sakurai gets more power back in regards to character choices as well as how DLC is done. Additionally, Furakawa believes that the SNES-Gamecube Era of Nintendo are the best Nintendo has ever been, which gives a big boost to the chances that a lot of these missing characters could and likely will show up in the base game of a Ultimate: Definitive Edition.

I think pupNapoleon gets to have some credit as he was the one who seemed to really bring back this topic around Sora's announcement, though I most definitely talked about this long before that and was basically asked to turn myself in to the psyche ward. I am very much convinced this is the route they will take, it's just perfectly set up.

So Since you mentioned all of this, I kind of want to say my theory on what I think might be going on with Ultimate and such

Nintendo Expected Ultimate to be a Success I Imagine, but I don't think it expected it to be the Success it ended up being, and I think Other Companies looking in didn't expect it either

I Imagine most of the Fighter Pass characters had their Negotiations in talk somewhere between 2015-2017, at least in it Starting in those times. What I think might have happened is that somewhere in 2019, Nintendo either were more Confident to Approach other Companies for Potential Smash Inclusion, or Vice versa in that other Companies approached them for Smash Inclusion, or a Combination of both

While FP1 and FP2 were in Development, I actually do think that from 2019-2021 (Maybe potentially into 2022, but not too much into the year), Nintendo/Sakurai spent all of that time on Negotiating with other Companies for Smash Inclusion

The thing is that I Imagine that alot of Deals went through, So many that I think it would be Impossible to make all of them happen in a Reasonable timeframe with the Small Dev Team Sakurai and the Team had on DLC. I think what's happening is they might stop Development on Ultimate for Now, Finalize all the Plans into one Project Plan, and Get a Regular Sized Dev Team (Perhaps Bigger than the one working for Ultimate), to go ahead and Develop an Ultimate Continuation in a Reasonable Timeframe. Plus it be in Nintendo's Best interest to sell this continuation as a $60 game, rather than just more DLC Packs

I think Sora being a Late inclusion to FP2 is I think Proof that Nintendo and Sakurai did not stop Negotiating/Talking with Companies in regards to Smash, Along with Some of the Mii Costumes like Doomguy (Remember the interview that implied nothing serious was taken in regards to Doomguy). Sora was mainly added on because he was the Most Requested character, so he fits with the Theme of Appealing to the Ballot that Ultimate Established.

Nabbitfan730 said:
As a Sonic fan myself, I'm going to say another rep from the series is highly unlikely especially when in Ultimate there were so much golden opportunity to the rep the series such as having Shadow, which would've been a prime candidate for Echo Fighters, Knuckles already take his place as AT, Ultimate Life Form for the Ultimate Smash, just regulated as another AT and with Sonic's 30th Anniversary happening this year with deals happening with other games yet Smash, a prime candidate for this sort of thing, once again missing opportunity which would be perfect.

Honestly disappointed with Shadow's dismal as much as Geno, if not more so as you can't even used that relevance/popularity/25 years against him either. I guess it's because Sonic isn't popular in Japan and Sakurai and Nintendo don't really care for the series which is a sham and I guess Sega would rep their other franchises instead of their main mascot, Sega always does silly decisions with Sonic and nothing else.

Also yeah, I agree why were the support threads anyways? I always thought the threads were tied to the characters instead of the respective smash games that are recent. Also I agree support threads would make things easier separately than in one hodgepodge. I had something in mind cooking up for the support thread to participate in to keep the support going but it's going much harder if we were smudged together than speaking to one thread individually.

As cool as and hype-inducing it would be for my favourite animanga to get repped in the Smash, unless its a Smash vs Shonen Jump type deal or a final bonus character that ends the Smash Game, I wouldn't want Goku in either. Another reason I'm not a fan of this "Popularity rules all" people keep pushing. Are we really going to sacrifice identity and vision of the franchise people are clinging onto just for the sake of big names? I don't like "celebration of gaming" myself but at least that has a limit and identity to aim for that it's just video games and that's it.

The second point is what it also why say to these people, if popularity is all to end all, why did characters such Tekken, Fatal Fury and Kingdom Hearts get over GTA, FIFA and COD? The latter are much more bigger games that latter in popularity and relevancy so what's stopping Nintendo from doing that? Why have Sora when we can have Tetris Block? Why have Gaming when you have media that is popular? Who cares if Smash was about Nintendo's History and seeing your favourite characters fight, Popularity is all that matters right? Smash Bros? More like Super Popularity Bros amrite?

As someone that Kept pushing for Shadow in Ultimate even after the Assist Trophy Confirmation, I might have been too Impatient in trying to force the idea that he had to happen in this game no matter what

It's seems that everything in Ultimate, including the Fighter Pass, was decided much earlier than when the Characters got in. In regards to Sonic, Him being less Popular in Japan is a big deal, but I really doubt Sega would be the one to deny the addition of a 2nd Character, especially since they usually don't just Crossover Sonic Himself, but also his fellow Friends, Rivals, and Villains.

I think it was just bad timing since Remember that around the Time the Project Plan was made, Sonic was in it's worst time since Sonic 06, due to the Sonic Boom Catastrophe. Sonic Dash was a Popular Mobile game, and the Cartoon was pretty good, but the Games and Sonic's Reputation was in the gutter. Plus remember that Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric was one of the games that was apart of the Nintendo Exclusivity deal. It being among the Worst, if not the Worst Sonic game ever probably made Nintendo feel burned, especially since the other 2 games (Lost World and Rio Olympics) weren't the best games either.

Right now though, Sonic has gotten good portion of his Reputation back. Mania was great, Forces was Mediocre, but some people still loved it and it was one of the Most Played PS Plus Games of all time, Sonic had a Successful move and is getting another one, he's getting a Netflix series, IDW Comics doing well, even in Japan, all the Merchandise and Crossovers. Sonic has not only managed to prove he could survive any Catastrophe, but also get some sort of Momentum in many avenues

So going into This Ultimate Continuation or Smash 6, Sonic is looking much better than before, and The requests for a 2nd Sonic character was also at it's Apex, and it wasn't even Small before. I have reason to believe this now is now for Someone like Tails, Eggman, Shadow, & Knuckles to get in

Now for Popularity of franchises, there are some things to keep in Mind

The Popularity of the Franchise heavily matters. Just in Regards to the Fighter Passes, the Main Choices Nintendo was rallying behind was Dragon Quest, Minecraft, and Tekken, which are the biggest franchises represented in the DLC, and in the case of Minecraft, among the biggest in the game. The reason they were the main choices is that when Sakurai talked about the Inclusion of Hero, Steve, and Kazuya, Nintendo was Explicitly Mentioned as a Request from Nintendo, which you don't really find with characters like Joker, Sephiroth, Terry, etc, even though Nintendo allowed their Inclusion

The other thing is that remember that Beyond the Popularity of the Franchise, Nintendo and Sakurai have to have the means to be able to Represent the Franchise and Characters in question in Smash, both from a Licensing standpoint and also a Game standpoint.

While figuring out how to Represent Minecraft and Tekken was a challenge, it probably be much, much more hard to represent something like COD, GTA, and FIFA. FIFA has all the crazy Licensing that would need to be done for Real Likeliness, that it might not even be worth it, GTA has all the Controversial material and Reputation that needs to be Addressed (Plus they need to talk to Rockstar, who to be honest I'm unsure in their Interest in Smash), and COD is kind of the Same with stuff like the Realistic Military weaponry and such

Oracle Link said:
But we still need some kirby and zelda representation! and if were talking about interesting evergreens including Dark matter
This guy:

would be a great choice for a kirby rep!

When it comes to mickey i knew that 4th party arguments would start as soon as sora is in so yeah my disliking of sora was pretty reasonable!
(also im 100% sure that sakurai choose to not have any disney stuff in!)

When it comes to the New franchises thing my opinion is: Having less franchises creates more variety! after all if a new franchise is included the only logical choice is a main Character (min min and kazuya do count) meaning the roster feels more samey and less iconic battles like Mario vs Bowser or Kirby vs dedede can happen!

When it comes to geno most of his moves are pretty generic i arguee mallow has a more interesting moveset! its mostly his puupet aesthetic that draws people in! but to be fair adding more attacks to mii fighters would be nice although i think it should be attacks from the Base chars! i just want some really indepth mii customization!

The thing I will say is among 4th Party Inclusions, Mickey is the only character I would say is Plausible at this moment. No Goku, No Batman, No Spiderman, No Wolverine, No Darth Vader, etc

The reason being that for one, the Licensing would be easier in relation since Disney I believe is the only party that would need to be Involved in regards to getting Mickey, and not even other Sub companies either, since there may be some piece in the contract that even though Disney owns Marvel and Lucasarts, they need to be on board with the idea as well otherwise Disney won't be able to use their contents

Keep in Mind that in the Making of KH3, I believe it was said that getting the rights to use Marvel and Star Wars would be Monumental undertaking, that it wouldn't be able to be done at the time, and this is the Same Franchise and game that's had Disney Characters since day 1. Kingdom Hearts has also has some Liberal takes on Mickey (well in relation to other sources of media) in the first place

But the Main Reason I actually look at him as a Possibility is I actually think Disney themselves would be the ones that would Push the Idea of Mickey in Smash. Disney I'm sure recognizes the Large Appeal of having it's Original Characters crossover in a Game like Smash. They recognized that idea then Kingdom Hearts was conceived, and Nintendo I.Ps have always had a larger Appeal (and still do) than Square I.Ps on average. Smash has Outsold Kingdom Hearts, by Millions and Millions of Copies

I don't think Nintendo would push the idea of trying to have Mickey in Smash, that's not what I'm trying to say. I think they would be content in just having Sora, and keeping to the Video game Origin tradition. However If Disney offered the Opportunity, I heavily doubt Nintendo would refuse, because Nintendo knows how big of a Deal it would be. It would be a huge undertaking, as Disney is gonna be quite Picky, but if Disney are the ones that most behind the idea, that makes things easier, as Disney would know everything that goes into Making a Smash fighter and what characters have to be able to do in the game.

and I don't think Sakurai would veto it. He would also know the Importance of the situation, and even in knowing the Undertaking that will be needed, If Nintendo AND Disney want him to Include Mickey Mouse, I don't think he would say no

As for Geno, I think Geno shows the Importance in having Flashy to your Moves. Geno's Moves aren't the most out of this world in terms of Functionality, but they look so Flashy that it kind of doesn't matter. Plus even then the Timed Hits mechanics would be a Interesting design decision to tackle

PeridotGX · Nov 8, 2021

DarthEnderX said:
I think they should never do another trainer again.

Spending THREE characters worth of dev resources to give us one Pokemon fighter? It's bad enough we always have to get an obligatory Pokemon rep, without making it cost us 2 extra characters...

You mean the no work that that takes?

T'was a joke. Flint had a horrible team, they fixed it in platinum, and they're un-fixing it in BDSP.

dream1ng · Nov 8, 2021

Guynamednelson said:
And why are we focusing on DLC right now? Smash 6 is likely to be several years away anyway, and DLC even more so. Is it because you're going to hate the base selection of newcomers minus one or two?

I say why I'm focusing on DLC in the post... because we're talking about third-parties, and they seem to be much more common as DLC. In Ultimate, we got one original third-party newcomer in base. In the DLC, we got eight.

So if we're talking about a third-party character, which we were, chances seem better they'll show up as DLC than in base. Hence focusing on DLC's trends.

DaybreakHorizon · Nov 8, 2021

ForsakenM said:
Yet again, another assumption that I was trying to insult you instead of just making a simple poke or jab in jest. I add comedy to the majority of my posts because otherwise it kinda gets boring talking about the same points to the same people. I wouldn't expect people that I converse with consistently to remember what I have said in the past...I mean, I would and do, but there is a difference between people I talk to in person with every day and someone I talk to occasionally online. Though, I will say that if you made just a bit more effort, you probably could have done just that. Also, implying you have to borderline obsess over someone to remember their opinions is rather odd, as I only talk to you guys here and rarely think about what is said here out in my daily life, and yet if someone randomly brought up your name a month from now because you potentially leaked something or whatever my response would probably be 'DaybreakHorizon? Isn't that the guy that changed his name on the forums from something pony-related and was really confident in Sora being CP11 when others were rather dismissive?' or whatever your most recent statement in my memory was.

Same thing if someone mentioned DarthEnderX randomly, I would probably say 'Isn't that the guy who makes really sassy comments that I'm 50/50 on and wants Kunio from River City Ransom or whatever in Smash?' Opossum Would probably be 'That Starfy and Hotel whatever guy' or how JudgeHeihachi thinks I'm obsessed with him because I had a laugh at his expense and can remember him as the 'pushing Heihachi in the Geno Thread' guy despite rarely ever thinking about him. I don't really pay attention to what you guys do outside of this thread or the old Newcomer Thread, but when I read your posts I remember these things. I dunno, I guess I'll blame the Autism on hard-sticking on those details. Maybe it's more difficult to remember people and what they say than it find it to be.

I also realize that your comment was about other companies in general, so since YOU were talking about more than just Capcom and Square, you assumed I was as well. I corrected that and gave an explanation on why I think Capcom got passed over and why that wouldn't apply to Square in a new Smash game. That's really all that happened in this exchange.

To properly address YOUR argument though, I do think lots of companies are open for business when it comes to getting Smash characters. I won't list any because I want my big post to have that impact, but I don't disagree with any of the companies you've brought up save for maybe Valve and Ubisoft, and that is only based on certain factors that make me believe they are less likely but not out of the question.

My response to 'Why Square at this point' is simply the opposite: Why not Square at this point? They are already proven to work with Nintendo and Sakurai, they still have many IPs that people love and want characters from, and the relationship is strong both between companies and individual relationships. Just because Square has four characters in Smash doesn't mean they can't get more or should be sidelined entirely to focus on other companies. I honestly can't tell you why Capcom didn't get a character outside of Ken, but I can tell you I felt like that pattern would continue for a long time until I let people convince me that they HAD to get a character. Sure, that could happen to Square, but I feel like the actual result will be that both companies will get more characters in the next title rather than Square getting none at all. The only thing I can say is that the Dante hype just came way too late, but I think it came at the perfect time for the next Smash title.

Also, I just want some honesty from you real quick if you do decide to respond: do you think that getting Cloud, DQ Crew, Sephy and Sora means that people won't want more from them or that Nintendo or Sakurai won't be aware of that or will be but decide against that? More importantly than that I want to know from you, since you are clearly all about Sora and I assume still an active KH fan unlike myself, if you thought it was possible would you now root for another KH character to get in Smash?

I ask this because I think the answer leads to you being a little bit misleading in the 'Square having 2-3' area of your post. Within JUST the KH fandom, don't you think people will now ask for Riku, Kairi, Roxas, Axel, Xion, Aqua, Ventus, Terra or even deeper picks like Xemnas, Master Eraqus, Ansem Seeker of Darkness or Xehanort himself to get in or at least push support for them? That's not even counting the possible dedication to any single Organization XIII member who are all beloved as well. KH on it's own destroys this 'Square having 2-3' notion you brought up, and that's not bringing up any series that Square owns that only really has one supported choice like Geno, 2B, Lara Croft, Neku or Crono...and I REALLY don't want to have to list all the popular FF characters again. I don't know what kind of support some of these other titles have in the Smash Sphere, but you have characters rom Octopath Traveler, Bravely Default, and Triangle Strategy is a game that will be out and have beloved characters before we get a new Smash. As dream1ng just mentioned (which I'll get to in a response, but I'm focusing on just the lad Daybreak right now) you also got the legacy of Space Invader, but the also have the Mana series, SaGa series, Hitman and Legacy of Kain which all have various levels of popularity...and with Sora's inclusion, support for any and all of these might go up, and that's if there wasn't support there already.

When you contrast this with companies like Microsoft who had to buy other companies to get icons people love and really only have Chief to call their own or how Koei Tecmo really only has Hayabusa, a handful of hot babes from Dead or Alive and maybe a few Warriors characters...Konami has Raiden, Bomberman, Frogger and Alucard/more Castlevania...etcetera etcetera.

My argument isn't that these companies have no characters to choose from, that was never the case. My argument is that some companies like Square just have a boatload of them that are all popular and beloved while some like Microsoft are more like what you said with actually only having a handful.

However, this discussion doesn't end here. There are many things to consider, like what I'll have to response to dream1ng about in regards to moveset potential, how both companies feel about presentation of their IPs (a couple characters with stages, an AT and some Spirits may be enough in their eyes), how hardball companies play in negotiations, what kind of promotions can be made...there are so many things to factor in to what companies get worked with for which characters it's a massive headache. I'm surprised Sakurai look as young as he does. This is why I said I have ideas about why Capcom got no other characters but Square got a bunch, but that I don't know for sure why the decisions were made. I'm sure you don't want to get into all of that based on your disinterest in our current conversation as well as speculation as a whole, but I do try to factor all these things in. I'm not always right about any of it, but since I try to consider all possibilities and try to think from multiple angles of those involved in the process, I have more confidence in what I say.

If I'm wrong, oh well, I did my best to try and be right but I'm not working on Smash so I couldn't possibly know until Sakurai comes out and says why. I also find trying to get to the bottom of things fun, and I know it's early but I think there are already things to talk about, so I will. Really all there is to it.

Oh, and by the way, I hope you are seriously enjoying Sora. I've very much distanced myself from the series and I enjoyed the inclusion for a couple matches, but now I'm pretty much over it...but since you were big on it, I hope that you are getting much more happiness out of the inclusion. It's weird to me how Sora getting in was seen as impossible and yet I'm less blown away by it than Ridley, K. Rool or Banjo, but I suppose feelings don't always make sense. You fought for it and you got it, so I hope it's what you wanted and then some. It's been crazy seeing lots of people melt into puddles of tears over his reveal, really shows how you guys have fought for it over the years. Here's for waiting for my turn to experience that with Geno and being a 30-something-year-old-man absolutely bluthering in tears on a reaction video in the somewhat-near future.

I'm not going to address this absolute wall of text because it's far too much for me to address, but I will say that if your "comedy" involves making fun of people and making petty jabs, then you need to get a better sense of humor.

It's harder to convey tone over text, so unless you explicitly say you're joking there's no way to tell if you're jesting or just being mean. Also, people generally don't like to be insulted, even if it's a joke. Saying "it's just a joke!" doesn't absolve the fact that you just insulted them to their face.

Hell, reading this over you actually insulted me by saying I didn't put in enough effort when rebutting your points. Like come on dude, this isn't comedy.

DarthEnderX · Nov 8, 2021

PeridotGX said:
T'was a joke. Flint had a horrible team, they fixed it in platinum, and they're un-fixing it in BDSP.

Ah, I see.

Geno Boost · Nov 8, 2021

I think smash has a lack of ice fighters.
I am not talking about something like Hero or Sora who just has just one ice attack that shows randomly.
Which ice fighters would you like to have in smash?

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