This is going to be big one so lets do this.
Oh, boy, let's talk about this ****! This is so gloriously dumb.
First off, of ALL the potential Metroid reps. .THE EMMI? SERIOUSLY? There are so, SO many better choices, but lemme get this straight. You think that trying to incorporate a horror movie monster character as playable would work? Instead of Sylux or Rundas? Also. .Squid Sisters are just not figher characters, I'm sorry. And Taranza? Seriously, if you want a modern kirby rep, Bandana Dee and Magolor are right there! TINGLE? These just. .mostly aren't very good fighters, especially since you overlook actually good ideas for characters in favor of this bull****. As well, how are you calling the MCU a "mishmash crossover" . . .when it's Marvel Comics properties? That's. .not even logical in anyways. And yet despite you insisting we have poor variety in DLC, we got a playable third party villain, tag-in fighting game representation, 3D fighting game representation, hack-and-slash representation . .How exactly is that poor variety? Oh, yeah, it isn't.
I'm not a big Metroid fan so I used example that were recent. Even then regardless why wouldn't work? Smash could use more unique monster types character instead of the generic humans most of the time. Already mentioned Magolor. "Squid Sisters don't fight" Never played Splatoon in their life I guess. Play the campaign.
Funny you think these aren't good ideas yet think having characters from the same genres all the time is a great idea. Basically limiting the potential unique picks Smash could have.
No, nah, don't think so.
And you don't think that this'll just shift gears if the game goes to Nintendo-focused?
All those toxic people won't go away, instead it'll just shift from Master Chief/Crash to Pokemon/other series. Nintendo fans aren't some angels.
I see no problem with this.
Like the other guy, it may not vanish immediately but they say would certain mitigated them to much smaller manageable levels like Melee and Brawl. Ik Nintendo fans aren't angels. Nintendo probably has the worst fanbase of gaming.
Also referring with that first sentence and last quote, I got ask Shroob?
do you even care for Smash at all with its identity and focus as Nintendo gaming crossover to the point you wouldn't it becoming a unrecognizable mess of game similar to Mugen of just random characters?
I was already in a bad mood, but then I had to see a post like this that I had to rip apart to shreds.
For starters, I hate this mentality that the first party supremacists that third party characters "steal" spaces away from "deserving" first parties. Smash has trended towards adding third parties for a variety of reasons that I could go into, but the part that really angered me was this belief that these first party picks "deserve" support just by birthright. That sort of view is flat out dumb. People have the freedom to want and discuss whatever they want. You do not get to shut down people's desires just because you want Nabbit or Tarenza. People have shown there is a clear desire for third parties, even here where first party support is notably stronger than elsewhere online. Among the masses, very few first parties reach that Little Mac, Palu, Shulk, K Rool, or Ridley tier of discussion. If I wanted to be generous, I could name four. The fact is, while there are hundreds of Nintendo characters that you could choose from, not many of them are popular right now.
How am I stealing your freedom? Where did I say you couldn't talk about third parties. Appealing for the masses for just for sake and shallow hype culture is a falling losing strategy. Losing your identity and placement just for sake for "WOW" and "WOAH" is a dangerous and ignorant thinking that could damage the franchise. You can't please everyone so stick to the audience that would benefit the most. It isn't my fault that your obsession of popularity blinds you and your creativity from the unique picks cultivated from first party like the list I have mentioned that Smash could benefit from. We shouldn't ditch characters with support and fanbases cuz it's not big enough especially the ones that could from company and games the series is about.
With that silly logic, Why did Sora get in over a Tetris block, Tetris is more popular, Why didn't COD Solider get in instead of Sephiroth? COD more popular? Persona over GTA? See how nonsensical this mentality is?
I also love how you try to outright explain away relevancy, when outside of the token retro and wtf picks relevancy has been king. In Smash 4, literally the only newcomers we got that did not benefit from relevancy from the Wii/3DS/DS era outside of the retro and WTF picks were the third parties. In Ultimate, the first party picks we got, outside of our wtf character in plant, were either super popular or super relevant.
Speaking of popularity, lets go there next. Popularity matters in Smash. Tons of ultimates design decisions (Everyone is here, K Rool, Ridley, Banjo, Sora, Chom and Dark Samus, Belmonts, and Sora) got in smash due to their fan demand. You want to know why I know fan demand matters? Because Sakurai said it himself in his famitsu columns and interviews multiple times. For someone who likes to make matter of fact statements, you really do love to ignore the word of the ****ing creator of the game. The vast majority of character picks are determined by either what was relevant during the recent past and present for that smash game, and what would be popular. Notice how for our third party picks, we got the biggest JRPG release in the past 10 years, one of the cornerstones of the JRPG genre, the first and second biggest requests according to Sakurai himself, arguably the biggest villain in all of gaming not in smash, the biggest 3d fighting game series of all time, and outright the biggest video game of all time in Minecraft?
Fan Demand from respective franchises matters, not popularity. Don't it twisted. The fact those retro and WTF picks and other like Pit, Terry, Marth initially, Pyra/Mythra etc that you intentionally missed out to make a weak point being an exception , are still running, not cut and still getting literally proves my point that popularity isn't the end. Sakurai even stated this himself in Terry presentation.
Sakurai had full veto rights on whatever characters got in as DLC, so you can't just say that Sakurai had his hands tied, especially with how much love he put into all of the third party DLC characters.
Sakurai literally said he couldn't chose and made pick from a list Nintendo made. What are you talking about?
Furthermore, this might be a bitter truth to accept, but there really are not many "Nintendo All Stars" left. If you go by fan demand, maybe you can say that four first parties are truly popular right now. But lets put Waluigi, Isaac, Bandana Dee, and maybe Dixie away for a second. Most of the first parties you yourself brought up are at best tertiary characters.
Now, there are a few new franchises you can push in Smash, such as Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, Astral Chain, or Ring Fit, but even then you have slim pickings because RH is dormant right now and Golden Sun has not gotten a game in over a decade. Now, compare that admittedly shallow pool to the vast pool of third parties now that the doors have been flung open. Its a no brainer why the masses have flocked to picks like Dante or Crash instead of King Boo or Magalor.
What does a character being tertiary have to do with anything? They still have demand from their respective fans and have ideas to bring to table like E.M.M.I example. Why should all that be thrown away over meaningless definitions that don't make in the long run for a robust All-Nintendo star roster? I could have strong representation without them but I have a STRONGER representation of them. No brainer.
You even countered your point saying are there still first party franchises not in Smash, why not gives the time to things that need it/ The masses flock to the choices because they care for the hype than an actual good game. Hype the next minute and dropping Smash the next. It's to cut the excess.
You do realize that even as early as the Smash 2 poll before Melee's development, Smash was eyeing third parties right. Even as early as Melee there were some effort in putting Sonic or Snake in the game.
But even then, if you want to use the "smash roots" argument, thing of how insane Smash Bros as a crossover was even back in the late 90s. You could have Mario fight Pikachu and the guy from Zelda? Wow, its like its a crossover game of cool characters fighting.
Never said Third Parties shouldn't exist. I said. 5-6 maximum similar in Brawl and 4 should suffice.
You literally just prove my point right here. Nintendo All Stars roster is still a big deal making dream matchup happen and still could and should happen. There is still untapped potential with first parties alone still can be reached but that won't happen if Smash keeps chasing a foolish goal of being a celebration of gaming and focusing too much on third parties whilst still missing the marks and having holes to reach this goal.
Oh I am so sorry, I did not know that the most legendary JRPG of the era, arguably of all time, that was one of the reasons the PS1 dominated over the N64 and the biggest Smash request according to the creator were too impure for you.
Ok. What does any of that have to with NINTENDO history and its library of games?
Show me the super popular first party pick that made it in as Smash DLC. At best you have XC2 content and Byleth being popular in Japan. Could a first party pick like Waluigi get in as DLC someday? Maybe. But you can't throw a tantrum if people speculate given what we have seen for three whole DLC cycles with FP1, FP2, and Smash 4.
Compare that to the venom that some of the first party supremacists threw around during Smash 4 and early ultimate, and going to be honest even now, and its clear which one is gatekeeping.
Finally, I want to reiterate that it is a bit messed up that you are acting like noticing a shift towards third parties is gatekeeping or even gaslighting. After Ultimate, it is clear that based on Sakurai's own comments and the picks chosen that the gates are far more open. People have freedom to talk about how they think it would be cool to see Doomguy or Dante fight Mario and Kirby. They have freedom to talk about whatever characters they want. We are in an environment where the Master Chief thread is a bastion of hope instead of getting locked for "trolling" by the mere crime of existing. I was there for Smash 4, and I can tell you that it is not gaslighting to say that an environment where you can suggest any character and see them blossom is better than one where your character might face a purity test of whether they are "Nintendo" enough. So many smaller fanbases grew in Ultimate, such as Reimu, Arle, Adol, Sakura, or KOS MOS just by that glimmer of hope after the door was opened. I think its honestly kind of gross to suggest that resistance to people wishing to bring us back to that dark place is gaslighting or gatekeeping.
No one is out here saying that you can't talk about Bandana Dee, Waluigi, or any first party. You have freedom to talk about whatever you want. You don't have white supremacists writing op eds about how your dream character would be sinful in smash. You can't compare people talking about third parties to a culture dominated by things like that.
Piranha Plant and Min Mine even though ill admit to hard to do so when Nintendo themselves don't have faith in their own characters.
Also that fact you are comparing me and others wanting Nintendo All Stars being comparable to a white supremacist, implying wanting Smash to return to form is same as racism, lynching, segregation etc 3 times just shows that honesty no one should actually take you or your argument seriously ever. This is the cr*p I was talking about in my previous rant and posts. You can't want characters in smash anymore without some clown like you calling you stupid sh*t like supremacist. Accusations like that always get thrown nily wily and I don't get it.
Was that guy before even a white supremacist or did y'all call him/her that cuz they said something you didn't like and was a fan of first party picks?
Also why is it toxic to talk about third parties but it isn't toxic to bash on people for daring to want a third party in the game instead of a Nintendo character, this feels like double standards/hypocrisy imo.
Maybe because saying Smash should return to form is a bit different than being call a supremacist for wanting so.
I said if you hated third parties, there are alternatives, but third parties are here to stay in Smash--I can't tell from the rhetoric who hates third parties or not, but there's a lot of weird rhetoric in that vein. They are the biggest sellers, as we saw with Nintendo's DLC choices. I'm sure if Nintendo thought they could sell enough using their B-list or C-list characters, they would have sufficed and would have been easier for them than all the third party licensing. And Sakurai sees Smash as a celebration of gaming, a point not countered.
You got a source or sales numbers of third parties selling better than first parties? Sakurai also said that isn't sustainable and couldn't be pull off again which is for the best.
Would a Nintendo All Stars make bank? Probably, but there'd be zero surprise factor that Pikachu could fight Dixie Kong (even though I want her in Smash). The surprise factor of characters from drastically different game worlds is what has been the appeal of Smash from the start, and third parties opened that world even more since Brawl. Going back to Nintendo All-Stars would be intentionally closing that world, and dissatisfying those outside of the Nintendo bubble. It's a case of going backwards, rather than forwards. And as Sakurai said, he wants to avoid making a Smash game that dissatisfies fans.
"if you want to use the "smash roots" argument, thing of how insane Smash Bros as a crossover was even back in the late 90s. You could have Mario fight Pikachu and the guy from Zelda? Wow, its like its a crossover game of cool characters fighting." This holds true then as it does today. As well as
"Now, there are a few new franchises you can push in Smash, such as Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, Astral Chain, or Ring Fit"
Still gaming worlds left to be explore and many more yet under first party as well worlds like Zelda and Kirby that still need meat on their bones yet that's apparently backwards not forwards. Funny, making Smash more of game with focus value and substance is backwards but blindly follow hype culture which leaves only a shallow feeling is forwards. Crazy.
Also wouldn't call the increased toxicity, death threats and wars satisfaction. If Sakurai wants that to be the case, he should the celebration of gaming and appeases the people who can, the ones that need it and ones who like Smash as actual game and roster case.
I hate to admit it but honestly i feel smash is heading that way despite me wanting Isaac, Ninten, Harry (Teleroboxer), Grovyle, Sukapon, Black Shadow, Daroach, Skull Kid, Captain Syrup I would feel very lucky to have any of them and the truth is they are not promotional characters which Nintendo aren’t a fan of when it comes to smash characters picks unless if very very highly demanded we are probably more likely to get 3 more fire emblem characters before any of them
Same. As someone who was upset Isabelle was in Smash over Dixie Kong, I understood why, but it still didn't sit well with me, especially given Ridley and King K. Rool before that. I had to get over it and realize that the first party characters I do want aren't as popular, and the ones that will get in are either popular with other people who play more modern Nintendo stuff, or are promotional picks for Nintendo games I don't plan on playing. But that's the other side of having such a big roster--there's just so many Nintendo characters I want that's already in, that it's hard to be picky.
My only other character I feel should be in Smash, but isn't, is Crash, who is a bigger icon than most of the characters that even appeared in Ultimate (including my #1 pick). Was he not popular on the ballot, more of a hassle to work with Activision than Disney?
Honestly, you guys leave that mind-set behind. Your hopes die when you leave them behind. That is what other third party fans, hypebeasts and Nintendo corporates want you guys to think. They want to shut you up and throw to the wayside as they see you as competition to get rid off. You should still support that characters regardless especially now as Sakurai in a few months is moving on to his next project plan which is mostly likely Smash 6 where he will be looking forward for potential candidates.
My big issue is that you seem insistent on making an argument where there just is not one. You do not have people actively trying to stifle any discussion to the extent there was before. While there will always be character detractors, the culture right now is far more inclusive. The Smash 4 era as I outlined earlier was terrible for that, and you have people that are arguing for us to go back to that in this thread. I was there, I was outright flamed for wanting third parties, I saw it happen to others with my own eyes. But somehow the people who don't want us to go back to that era are, in your own words, blissfully ignorant at best or manipulating speculation at worst? That era of speculation was terrible, but you yourself said in your first post that people were manipulating speculation in order to make it more beneficial for their characters. No one has that kind of power. At best, you make a passionate cas and attempt to gain supporters that way. I did it for Crash and Sephiroth, I have seen it done for countless characters like SNK as a whole, Bill Rizer, Reimu, Adol, Captain Toad, Elma, Skull Kid, and Rhythm Heaven just to name a few. And you know what? I got into Touhou and Ys because of them, and I gave XCX and Rhythm Heaven a second shot. This is the reality of what smash is. You will have people make counter arguments, as people did for each of them, but that does not mean that you can not discuss your dream pick. There really is not much of a public blacklist. I ran RTC, arguably the most critical section on whether a character is likely or not. But we still discussed characters even if they were unlikely. Heck, while some people might not like being told their character is not the most likely, it is clear that repeated ratings in RTC after a strong case only grew their support. KOS MOS, Sakura from Sakura Wars, or Reimu are great examples of this in terms of their RTC records.
I don't condone harassment, bullying, flaming etc but they was probably a defensive actions to not having Smash choices to devolve to a cesspit It became with Ultimate's DLC.
I think people are, willfully or otherwise, ignoring the point being made and focusing on other aspects of the argument, and that's that there is a very notable pushback against first party additions that aren't either Switch-or-newer or Waluigi and sometimes Isaac.
To illustrate, I'll use a character as an example. In particular, a character that was offhandedly thrown under the bus a page and a half ago with no pushback from anyone else: Starfy. Good old Starfy is a character that best illustrates what I'm talking about: a character with modest popularity from a fairly obscure Nintendo franchise, who was disconfirmed for Ultimate early on with the reveal of his Assist Trophy. He didn't have Waluigi level popularity, since very few characters do, so discussion died down after the Assist was shown off. That's expected. It's the natural cycle.
So what are Starfy fans to do? They were told, after all, that Starfy's odds for Ultimate were done and dusted, and they were. They were told he didn't fit Nintendo's DLC plans due to his series being on extended hiatus, and due to his role in the base game. And that was right. So what did people say? "Wait until next game, when the board is reset." And now the board is reset.
So why are people still acting like talking about characters like Starfy is a fruitless endeavor not worthy of discussion? Why are we still using DLC "rules" for an as-of-yet unannounced base game, when characters like him have their best shot?
Yes, you can say "people can still talk about those kinds of characters! Nobody is stopping them!" But that's missing the point. Yes, anybody can scream into the void. But if nobody engages with it, what's the point? Why talk about characters you'd want when it's blatantly clear most of the thread won't even entertain the possibility of those characters getting in in the future?
Instead, at best, you get people imparting their sagely knowledge almost patronizingly, like a Nick Offerman-looking father figure getting down on his knee, putting his hand on Little Timmy's shoulder, and telling him, "Well, sport...the sad truth is that Starfy didn't go to a farm upstate, he's just irrelevant. And as such, we don't want to waste our time talking about him."
And like, okay? So was Banjo. And I can hear you say, "but Banjo had fan demand." And you know why he did? Besides Phil Spencer, I mean. It's because people were allowed to talk about him. And people engaged with the conversation. But by not engaging in discussions about other characters who may be seen as obscure, you're also killing the chance of them ever getting a fanbase that large pre-emptively.
Before anyone tries to tell me I'm against third parties, third party additions are legitimately some of my favorite additions in Smash. When Sonic and Snake were added to Brawl, I was fascinated by what could be done in future games. Mega Man and Pac-Man were some of my biggest requests for Smash 4, albeit with the caveat that Pac not be his Ghostly Adventures design. When Ryu was found in the files, I was ecstatic. How cool was that? Ryu, the fighting game character, was going to be in Smash! And Cloud, the eternal never-ever, finally getting in felt so damn surreal. When Simon got leaked for Ultimate, I was super hyped, and hoped they'd use his Conan-like look. And then he did! And out of Ultimate's eleven Challenger Packs? Out of my top six (Terry, Byleth, Min Min, Steve, Sephiroth, Sora), four were third party! A whole two thirds! And even now, I would love to see the likes of Lara Croft, Frogger, Phoenix Wright, Maxwell, and (managerial changes in the future assumed) Ezio and Crash!
But as someone who also wants some fairly under the radar first parties, it's legitimately disheartening to see characters I want to see written off as "irrelevant," or "not even has-beens, but never-was-es," or "characters only diehard Nintendo nerds who spend too much time online would know even exist." If I had a dollar for every time I've seen characters like these dismissed because "all of the important Nintendo characters are already here," I'd have enough money to financially ensure the future of all of their franchises singlehandedly. It often feels that you can't try to raise support for a character unless they'd make Twitter collectively soil its pants in hype.
And dismissing these fanbases entirely as internet echo chambers just makes it a game of who can talk the loudest and control the conversation. Isaac, one of these characters who's better off, gets talked about a lot, and Golden Sun etched itself into a lot of people's hearts for being a solid RPG on a Nintendo console, a rarity for its day. When Starfy got into Super Mario Maker six or so years ago, people came out of the woodwork saying how happy they were that Nintendo remembered him. People talk about wanting genre diversity, but ignore that Dillon might just be one of the best possible characters to represent the tower defense genre. Sin and Punishment just got added to NSO, and will likely reach more people now than it ever did before, even with Nintendo's headass pricing. Takamaru's biggest obstacle for inclusion, being Japan only, is no longer the case. Sukapon got a second lease on life, getting his pink, circular foot in the door as an Assist.
And those are just the ones that get talked about somewhat often! You know what game I always, without fail, see brought up from fans of games like Ace Attorney and the Nonary Games? A game that Nintendo owns but you never see Smash fans talk about? Hotel Dusk. Despite Kyle Hyde having a trophy in Brawl (an animated one at that!) and a spirit in Ultimate, and despite Hotel Dusk being a cult classic, the game doesn't get discussed in the context of Smash, showing that yes, blind spots exist among those who look at first parties, as well. So many ideas can get tossed around and people can learn new things about games they didn't know about. It's nice. But all too often it feels like the conversation gets neutered before it can happen because people have already made up their mind. And often, it's simply because it's a Nintendo character that isn't new or Waluigi.
Because hot damn does it suck. Like when Maximilian Dood's reaction to the Byleth presentation is an uninterested "is this a waifu game" jab. Or when Honest Trailers had that god awful "Now they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Who knew who Shulk was before this game? Congrats, you're now Japanese," which was frankly infuriating. Like Jesus Christ just use Google you unfunny voice over man. Look at Project Rainfall. It's not hard. Well joke's on you, now your channel is owned by Fandom and people rightfully hate it. Anyway.
Being pushed aside with the Smash Speculation Forum equivalent of "be quiet, the adults are talking" ****ing sucks, and I'll no longer pretend that it doesn't.
So that was my rant. I apologize to Nick Offerman on the off chance he's here, because damn it you never know.
This. Took the words from my mouth. Smash to the return
[/QUOTE]
Is this a hot take?
I honestly think that the Ghosts would be pretty clever fighters in the next Smash. Whilst Namco does have a wide variety of different characters and stuff to use, (and Ms. Pac-Man would be a really good Echo,) I think the Ghosts would be hella cool. Now, in terms of their style, I think they should all be different costumes as opposed to all 4 as a collective - but maybe give them all different expressions based on their own?
So... what are your thoughts? Anyone got any ideas for other moves?
Not a hot take. Smash needs more Enemies and Villains than the just typical protag
Any Smash OC would be the biggest waste of a Fighter slot ever.
How? You still haven't answered my question? Honesty a Smash OC would've been better than most DLC picks. Imagine how cool to play as Master Hand or Tabuu?
They already GOT the treatment they deserve. That's why every 1st party that matters is already IN Smash.
So Waluigi, Issac, Octolings, Dixie, Starfy, ones I mentioned before all don't matter right? in a Nintendo crossover?
Not to mention, I could say easily that all the third party that matters are already in smash so they no need to add more.
Where are all the Playstation Allstars? The rest of the Microsoft IPs? The PC gaming scene (maybe you try to focus on console gaming, but then you have the issue of Minecraft originating off-console)? Multiple massive franchises with no playable reps or no representation at all. Whole genres like FPS essentially missing on the roster. There's not even much point in listing all the ways that it fails at celebrating all of gaming because there's so many things missing, and I don't see how it could come reasonably close to representing everything remotely fairly, completely, or coherently. It's too much of a legal and practical mess.
The "all" is implicit. If it's not "all," then what is it? It would then have no discernible identity if it's not "all."
Funny people will still call, defend and fight for that notion yet, as you clearly explained, it's not obviously the case especially with DLC. Poor variety in all fronts. Why not have a Smash that can actually achieve its goals with having substance for being game like Melee, Brawl, 4 and Base Ultimate.
