Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Speed Weed]

I think people are, willfully or otherwise, ignoring the point being made and focusing on other aspects of the argument, and that's that there is a very notable pushback against first party additions that aren't either Switch-or-newer or Waluigi and sometimes Isaac.

To illustrate, I'll use a character as an example. In particular, a character that was offhandedly thrown under the bus a page and a half ago with no pushback from anyone else: Starfy. Good old Starfy is a character that best illustrates what I'm talking about: a character with modest popularity from a fairly obscure Nintendo franchise, who was disconfirmed for Ultimate early on with the reveal of his Assist Trophy. He didn't have Waluigi level popularity, since very few characters do, so discussion died down after the Assist was shown off. That's expected. It's the natural cycle.

So what are Starfy fans to do? They were told, after all, that Starfy's odds for Ultimate were done and dusted, and they were. They were told he didn't fit Nintendo's DLC plans due to his series being on extended hiatus, and due to his role in the base game. And that was right. So what did people say? "Wait until next game, when the board is reset." And now the board is reset.

So why are people still acting like talking about characters like Starfy is a fruitless endeavor not worthy of discussion? Why are we still using DLC "rules" for an as-of-yet unannounced base game, when characters like him have their best shot?

Yes, you can say "people can still talk about those kinds of characters! Nobody is stopping them!" But that's missing the point. Yes, anybody can scream into the void. But if nobody engages with it, what's the point? Why talk about characters you'd want when it's blatantly clear most of the thread won't even entertain the possibility of those characters getting in in the future?

Instead, at best, you get people imparting their sagely knowledge almost patronizingly, like a Nick Offerman-looking father figure getting down on his knee, putting his hand on Little Timmy's shoulder, and telling him, "Well, sport...the sad truth is that Starfy didn't go to a farm upstate, he's just irrelevant. And as such, we don't want to waste our time talking about him."

And like, okay? So was Banjo. And I can hear you say, "but Banjo had fan demand." And you know why he did? Besides Phil Spencer, I mean. It's because people were allowed to talk about him. And people engaged with the conversation. But by not engaging in discussions about other characters who may be seen as obscure, you're also killing the chance of them ever getting a fanbase that large pre-emptively.

Before anyone tries to tell me I'm against third parties, third party additions are legitimately some of my favorite additions in Smash. When Sonic and Snake were added to Brawl, I was fascinated by what could be done in future games. Mega Man and Pac-Man were some of my biggest requests for Smash 4, albeit with the caveat that Pac not be his Ghostly Adventures design. When Ryu was found in the files, I was ecstatic. How cool was that? Ryu, the fighting game character, was going to be in Smash! And Cloud, the eternal never-ever, finally getting in felt so damn surreal. When Simon got leaked for Ultimate, I was super hyped, and hoped they'd use his Conan-like look. And then he did! And out of Ultimate's eleven Challenger Packs? Out of my top six (Terry, Byleth, Min Min, Steve, Sephiroth, Sora), four were third party! A whole two thirds! And even now, I would love to see the likes of Lara Croft, Frogger, Phoenix Wright, Maxwell, and (managerial changes in the future assumed) Ezio and Crash!

But as someone who also wants some fairly under the radar first parties, it's legitimately disheartening to see characters I want to see written off as "irrelevant," or "not even has-beens, but never-was-es," or "characters only diehard Nintendo nerds who spend too much time online would know even exist." If I had a dollar for every time I've seen characters like these dismissed because "all of the important Nintendo characters are already here," I'd have enough money to financially ensure the future of all of their franchises singlehandedly. It often feels that you can't try to raise support for a character unless they'd make Twitter collectively soil its pants in hype.

And dismissing these fanbases entirely as internet echo chambers just makes it a game of who can talk the loudest and control the conversation. Isaac, one of these characters who's better off, gets talked about a lot, and Golden Sun etched itself into a lot of people's hearts for being a solid RPG on a Nintendo console, a rarity for its day. When Starfy got into Super Mario Maker six or so years ago, people came out of the woodwork saying how happy they were that Nintendo remembered him. People talk about wanting genre diversity, but ignore that Dillon might just be one of the best possible characters to represent the tower defense genre. Sin and Punishment just got added to NSO, and will likely reach more people now than it ever did before, even with Nintendo's headass pricing. Takamaru's biggest obstacle for inclusion, being Japan only, is no longer the case. Sukapon got a second lease on life, getting his pink, circular foot in the door as an Assist.

And those are just the ones that get talked about somewhat often! You know what game I always, without fail, see brought up from fans of games like Ace Attorney and the Nonary Games? A game that Nintendo owns but you never see Smash fans talk about? Hotel Dusk. Despite Kyle Hyde having a trophy in Brawl (an animated one at that!) and a spirit in Ultimate, and despite Hotel Dusk being a cult classic, the game doesn't get discussed in the context of Smash, showing that yes, blind spots exist among those who look at first parties, as well. So many ideas can get tossed around and people can learn new things about games they didn't know about. It's nice. But all too often it feels like the conversation gets neutered before it can happen because people have already made up their mind. And often, it's simply because it's a Nintendo character that isn't new or Waluigi.

Because hot damn does it suck. Like when Maximilian Dood's reaction to the Byleth presentation is an uninterested "is this a waifu game" jab. Or when Honest Trailers had that god awful "Now they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Who knew who Shulk was before this game? Congrats, you're now Japanese," which was frankly infuriating. Like Jesus Christ just use Google you unfunny voice over man. Look at Project Rainfall. It's not hard. Well joke's on you, now your channel is owned by Fandom and people rightfully hate it. Anyway.

Being pushed aside with the Smash Speculation Forum equivalent of "be quiet, the adults are talking" ****ing sucks, and I'll no longer pretend that it doesn't.

So that was my rant. I apologize to Nick Offerman on the off chance he's here, because damn it you never know.

Very well said - I was gonna try and say my piece on this myself, but really this just explains the problem 10 times better than I ever could

 

[CosmicQuark]

Max has been my favorite Smash content creator, primarily because I hate competitive Smash, and he plays it in the casual way I'm more use to--and his reactions are always hilarious. Even with Byleth, he was so much on the Dante hype train that it clouded his reaction, but he said when he rated the trailers recently that now that the rush of an initial reaction is over, he probably went a bit overboard (though, I agree with him that the quality of the trailer didn't help). Same with Steve, he did not want that character in the game, but then made a whole video dedicated to explaining to irrational Smash fans why it makes sense and why they shouldn't be too upset over it. And then he got Sephiroth and everything was right with the world. It is funny that between him and Simmons, almost every FP character were for them, and that helped make their reactions more interesting. For characters Max hated, like "Xeno-****", he knows how popular the series is since it's his friend's favorite game, who was ecstatic that Pyra and Mythra were in. It's light ribbing with friends. So even when he calls Banjo a "gorilla who looks like a bear", I know it's light-hearted fun unlike most in the Smash community who take this game way too seriously.

 

[Shroob]

Max has been my favorite Smash content creator, primarily because I hate competitive Smash, and he plays it in the casual way I'm more use to--and his reactions are always hilarious. Even with Byleth, he was so much on the Dante hype train that it clouded his reaction, but he said when he rated the trailers recently that now that the rush of an initial reaction is over, he probably went a bit overboard (though, I agree with him that the quality of the trailer didn't help). Same with Steve, he did not want that character in the game, but then made a whole video dedicated to explaining to irrational Smash fans why it makes sense and why they shouldn't be too upset over it. And then he got Sephiroth and everything was right with the world. It is funny that between him and Simmons, almost every FP character were for them, and that helped make their reactions more interesting. For characters Max hated, like "Xeno-****", he knows how popular the series is since it's his friend's favorite game, who was ecstatic that Pyra and Mythra were in. It's light ribbing with friends. So even when he calls Banjo a "gorilla who looks like a bear", I know it's light-hearted fun unlike most in the Smash community.

Granted, didn't he not buy Hero or Byleth for a long-ass time? I remember a lot of his livestreams not having certain DLC characters unlocked.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Granted, didn't he not buy Hero or Byleth for a long-ass time? I remember a lot of his livestreams not having certain DLC characters unlocked.

Simmons didn't buy Hero because the composer who--has problems (won't go into detail because I don't want a political debate), which I feel is a valid reason to not want to support putting one's personal funds in to buying a character. But even without a valid reason, people can buy whatever characters they want or not buy characters, it's their choice. Though, while Max talked about Hero in his Smash reflections, Simmons just skipped Hero for that reason, which could aggravate some, but came from a reason not to do with the character itself.

EDIT: Max didn't have Min Min too, but it was during the beginnings of the pandemic and they couldn't play it as much. He said he'd get Min Min when he realized he didn't have her in.

 

[DarthEnderX]

May 10th, 2006
November 12th, 2015
December 7th, 2018

At any of these dates, this outdated mindset should have died out.

To be fair, those characters all represent franchises that started on the NES.

I'm not against all third-parties, my point is that Smash's attempt to transcend Nintendo is half-assed. Why bother revisiting ARMS if they want to go beyond Nintendo?

Because every piece of transcending Nintendo costs licensing fees?

But there's always Melee and Mario Kart if you hate third parties.

...for now.

 

[PeridotGX]

Simmons didn't buy Hero because the composer who--has problems (won't go into detail because I don't want a political debate), which I feel is a valid reason to not want to support putting one's personal funds in to buying a character. But even without a valid reason, people can buy whatever characters they want or not buy characters, it's their choice. Though, while Max talked about Hero in his Smash reflections, Simmons just skipped Hero for that reason, which could aggravate some, but came from a reason not to do with the character itself.

EDIT: Max didn't have Min Min too, but it was during the beginnings of the pandemic and they couldn't play it as much. He said he'd get Min Min when he realized he didn't have her in.

for what it's worth, the dragon quest situation has been... solved. sugiyama can't really get any money anymore.

 

[CosmicQuark]

for what it's worth, the dragon quest situation has been... solved. sugiyama can't really get any money anymore.

And I believe Simmons commented on that and may get Hero--not sure, though, as I mainly watch Max's streams. But I can also understand it if he still doesn't buy it, even listening to his music could trigger him, and I respect that. Still, despite all of his grievances with Dragon Quest inclusion, he did play with Max when they did their Hero episodes.

 

[ForsakenM]

for what it's worth, the dragon quest situation has been... solved. sugiyama can't really get any money anymore.

Remind me to live my life in a way where my passing doesn't make things better for everyone now that I'm gone.

 

[Wonder Smash]

View attachment 336849

Yeah, I don't know how anybody could come up with some "silly" notion. Whether you like it or not, that's how Sakurai now views Smash, and it's been highly profitable for them. If you don't like it, that's fine. But there's always Melee and Mario Kart if you hate third parties.

I just want to point out that that was in relation to Smash being described as a fighting game, as Sakurai doesn't see Smash as just a fighting game. He wasn't saying that Smash is literally a celebration of video games.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Getting real tired about the "Smash must run and dominated by popular third parties pick" which was one of the few reasons I wrote that rant on the previous Speculation Thread. There are still more first party pick and even franchises like Zelda, Splatoon and Kirby that can use to the extra support such as Magolor, Skull Kid, Tingle, Tarzana, Fawful, King Boo, Darkrai, E.M.M.I, Octolings both types, Squid Sisters etc. all would be great additions for the next game.

I mean...sure. If you just wanna fill the roster up with a bunch of D-listers.

And For Frogger, eh he could be serious pick due to his Iconic role and Bub & Bob could be 3rd Party Duo Character.

Stop trying to make duo characters out of characters that aren't duo characters in their own series.

But that's supposedly what DLC is for. Again, if the standards are different for the base game, act like it.

The standards are different.

Base game sells itself. DLC has to convince to people to buy it.

Base game is the place to stick your less popular 1st parties. DLC is where your blockbusters go.

 

[dream1ng]

I think people are, willfully or otherwise, ignoring the point being made and focusing on other aspects of the argument, and that's that there is a very notable pushback against first party additions that aren't either Switch-or-newer or Waluigi and sometimes Isaac.

To illustrate, I'll use a character as an example. In particular, a character that was offhandedly thrown under the bus a page and a half ago with no pushback from anyone else: Starfy. Good old Starfy is a character that best illustrates what I'm talking about: a character with modest popularity from a fairly obscure Nintendo franchise, who was disconfirmed for Ultimate early on with the reveal of his Assist Trophy. He didn't have Waluigi level popularity, since very few characters do, so discussion died down after the Assist was shown off. That's expected. It's the natural cycle.

So what are Starfy fans to do? They were told, after all, that Starfy's odds for Ultimate were done and dusted, and they were. They were told he didn't fit Nintendo's DLC plans due to his series being on extended hiatus, and due to his role in the base game. And that was right. So what did people say? "Wait until next game, when the board is reset." And now the board is reset.

So why are people still acting like talking about characters like Starfy is a fruitless endeavor not worthy of discussion? Why are we still using DLC "rules" for an as-of-yet unannounced base game, when characters like him have their best shot?

Yes, you can say "people can still talk about those kinds of characters! Nobody is stopping them!" But that's missing the point. Yes, anybody can scream into the void. But if nobody engages with it, what's the point? Why talk about characters you'd want when it's blatantly clear most of the thread won't even entertain the possibility of those characters getting in in the future?

Instead, at best, you get people imparting their sagely knowledge almost patronizingly, like a Nick Offerman-looking father figure getting down on his knee, putting his hand on Little Timmy's shoulder, and telling him, "Well, sport...the sad truth is that Starfy didn't go to a farm upstate, he's just irrelevant. And as such, we don't want to waste our time talking about him."

And like, okay? So was Banjo. And I can hear you say, "but Banjo had fan demand." And you know why he did? Besides Phil Spencer, I mean. It's because people were allowed to talk about him. And people engaged with the conversation. But by not engaging in discussions about other characters who may be seen as obscure, you're also killing the chance of them ever getting a fanbase that large pre-emptively.

Before anyone tries to tell me I'm against third parties, third party additions are legitimately some of my favorite additions in Smash. When Sonic and Snake were added to Brawl, I was fascinated by what could be done in future games. Mega Man and Pac-Man were some of my biggest requests for Smash 4, albeit with the caveat that Pac not be his Ghostly Adventures design. When Ryu was found in the files, I was ecstatic. How cool was that? Ryu, the fighting game character, was going to be in Smash! And Cloud, the eternal never-ever, finally getting in felt so damn surreal. When Simon got leaked for Ultimate, I was super hyped, and hoped they'd use his Conan-like look. And then he did! And out of Ultimate's eleven Challenger Packs? Out of my top six (Terry, Byleth, Min Min, Steve, Sephiroth, Sora), four were third party! A whole two thirds! And even now, I would love to see the likes of Lara Croft, Frogger, Phoenix Wright, Maxwell, and (managerial changes in the future assumed) Ezio and Crash!

But as someone who also wants some fairly under the radar first parties, it's legitimately disheartening to see characters I want to see written off as "irrelevant," or "not even has-beens, but never-was-es," or "characters only diehard Nintendo nerds who spend too much time online would know even exist." If I had a dollar for every time I've seen characters like these dismissed because "all of the important Nintendo characters are already here," I'd have enough money to financially ensure the future of all of their franchises singlehandedly. It often feels that you can't try to raise support for a character unless they'd make Twitter collectively soil its pants in hype.

And dismissing these fanbases entirely as internet echo chambers just makes it a game of who can talk the loudest and control the conversation. Isaac, one of these characters who's better off, gets talked about a lot, and Golden Sun etched itself into a lot of people's hearts for being a solid RPG on a Nintendo console, a rarity for its day. When Starfy got into Super Mario Maker six or so years ago, people came out of the woodwork saying how happy they were that Nintendo remembered him. People talk about wanting genre diversity, but ignore that Dillon might just be one of the best possible characters to represent the tower defense genre. Sin and Punishment just got added to NSO, and will likely reach more people now than it ever did before, even with Nintendo's headass pricing. Takamaru's biggest obstacle for inclusion, being Japan only, is no longer the case. Sukapon got a second lease on life, getting his pink, circular foot in the door as an Assist.

And those are just the ones that get talked about somewhat often! You know what game I always, without fail, see brought up from fans of games like Ace Attorney and the Nonary Games? A game that Nintendo owns but you never see Smash fans talk about? Hotel Dusk. Despite Kyle Hyde having a trophy in Brawl (an animated one at that!) and a spirit in Ultimate, and despite Hotel Dusk being a cult classic, the game doesn't get discussed in the context of Smash, showing that yes, blind spots exist among those who look at first parties, as well. So many ideas can get tossed around and people can learn new things about games they didn't know about. It's nice. But all too often it feels like the conversation gets neutered before it can happen because people have already made up their mind. And often, it's simply because it's a Nintendo character that isn't new or Waluigi.

Because hot damn does it suck. Like when Maximilian Dood's reaction to the Byleth presentation is an uninterested "is this a waifu game" jab. Or when Honest Trailers had that god awful "Now they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Who knew who Shulk was before this game? Congrats, you're now Japanese," which was frankly infuriating. Like Jesus Christ just use Google you unfunny voice over man. Look at Project Rainfall. It's not hard. Well joke's on you, now your channel is owned by Fandom and people rightfully hate it. Anyway.

Being pushed aside with the Smash Speculation Forum equivalent of "be quiet, the adults are talking" ****ing sucks, and I'll no longer pretend that it doesn't.

So that was my rant. I apologize to Nick Offerman on the off chance he's here, because damn it you never know.

I think the unfair truth of the matter is that the parameters that Smash sets, insofar as the traits it values are reflected in who can best maintain the attention of the fanbase. People know that Smash doesn't value non-current first-party series, and thus those series don't get discussed.

They can be, but be honest, how often have you seen a character in the position of a Starfy, or a Saki, or a Ray MK, where their series is long dormant and they've lost most of their momentum gain it back by sheer willpower of the fanbase? The first-parties that buck the trend don't buck that part of the trend. K. Rool's popularity continued past his getting appearances, but it didn't get off the ground when he was dormant. Even if it had, the DK games are... pretty big, and the series was still going. Isaac's popularity, until the AT deconfirmation, never really went away in the first place. And now it might have been big enough to continue going despite the gap. Even Geno, who sort of fits this category despite not being first-party, was strongly buoyed by actually getting acknowledged in-game. Had that costume never come, his days in the limelight probably would've ended a while ago.

The only characters that come to mind in terms of getting placed back into the conversation despite no developments are retros, and that has since curbed after the "retro spot" sort of went away.

More over, there's been no reinforcement that this kind of thing actually works for unrepresented series like Starfy's. Had Isaac actually gotten in, that might've helped series contemporary to his own regain some drive. But what people saw was despite the extended efforts of the fanbase, it didn't amount to inclusion. That's got to not help morale.

Not just that, but they also seem a lot likelier to even cut the ATs of non current/non retro series than others, like Saki, Ray MK, Barbara, Jill, Helirin, Infantry, etc. Even Isaac, whose series wasn't even inactive when they cut him. In that regard, at least Starfy somehow survived.

It would certainly be nice if all these first-party series had popularity, but it speaks to demand (not just unspoken popularity, actual demand) being informed by and inextricably interwoven with expectation. I think you can see how strongly those two are correlated with the Banjo example, where a rekindled belief in the possibility of the character resulted in them becoming a top three pick basically overnight. The difference is not that Banjo was simply allowed to be spoken about, it's the events that prompted the discussion. It's that Banjo was taken off the table while a popular character, basically freezing him as a popular first-party, not really changing the perception of the IP by virtue of barely using it, and then eventually putting him back on the table as that popular "first-party" who can now play by third-party rules; wherein not being active is not the same deterrent (even if he now has new obstacles). Banjo's popularity was deferred more than naturally dissolved, which puts him in a singularly unique situation.

In general, there is some aspect of "survival of the fittest" in terms of Smash speculation, and these series just aren't seen as healthy right now, and so people don't pay them much attention. The cold truth is, even if people talk about those first-party characters, from what we've seen, they still probably won't happen, and people pick up on that believed futility.

I don't relish the reality where the first-party conversation becomes so narrow that only promo characters, Waluigi, and maybe one or two other lucky survivors escape the vacuum, but truthfully Smash is going to have to be the one to buck the trend for people to regain the faith in all those possibilities. I think the best you can reasonably hope for in terms of these kind of characters is to pick an inactive one from an active series, because at least inclusions like K. Rool would give that fanbase a little more fuel to subsist on. A character like Skull Kid, or, if you're in Japan, Magolor. Again, Geno sort of fits here too. I'd suggest Lyn, but being from FE, she's going to have issues where she's just probably not going to be able to make it over whoever is newest. They may not have the strongest hook, but you could at least make more progress than those from a dormant franchise, Isaac aside. Though far be it from me to stop people trying.

 

[CosmicQuark]

I just want to point out that that was in relation to Smash being described as a fighting game, as Sakurai doesn't see Smash as just a fighting game. He wasn't saying that Smash is literally a celebration of video games.

No, he literally said that, and it was written on screen. Doesn't matter if the original discussion was about if Smash was a fighting game, "[it's become] some sort of celebration of gaming or something else entirely" is what he said. Not sure if he's talked about the distinctions between first and third party, as that could be a whole can of worms, but the sentiment is still the same. And when talking about Sora, he talked specifically about how Smash has become such a big collaboration and how thankful he was to other parties for making it possible, describing the difficulties in working with a big company like Disney. He's said this numerous times, in a variety of contexts, I picked that one since it's easier to display as a simple image.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Is this a hot take?

I honestly think that the Ghosts would be pretty clever fighters in the next Smash. Whilst Namco does have a wide variety of different characters and stuff to use, (and Ms. Pac-Man would be a really good Echo,) I think the Ghosts would be hella cool. Now, in terms of their style, I think they should all be different costumes as opposed to all 4 as a collective - but maybe give them all different expressions based on their own?

That aside... I'm actually not exactly sure what their moveset would be. Now, I can imagine their general playstyle - light, floaty and fast, able to chase down opponents but being light because, well, they're ghosts - but I think a lot of stuff here could be unusual.

For instance - my idea for their Neutral Special is that maybe it could work a little like Pac-Man's, but with ghosts! Their different effects would be loosely based on their original patterns in the original game. Only one Ghost can be on screen at a time, though. Let me elaborate:

Blinky: Blinky's original pattern was that he'd directly chase Pac-Man - so I think it's logical that Blinky is able to attempt to home in on a nearby foe. The idea here is that he'd move quite slowly in a straight line - but if he gets near an opponent, he changes course at 90 degree angles to try and hit them! However, hitting would do a fairly low amount of damage and knockback for the sake of balancing.

Inky: Inky's classic pattern involves him only chasing down Pac-Man if someone else (usually Blinky) is doing the same. As such, my idea for this is that Inky might work a little like a boomerang - moving quite quickly, but returning to the Ghost as well. Interestingly, Inky does multiple hits if it catches an opponent (a little like the Crownerang,) but upon returning to the Ghost, it vanishes.

Pinky: Pinky's classic pattern had her move parallel to Pac-Man, so my take here is that she moves forward - quickly. Doing some meaty damage and knockback if she hits, the main problem is that her movement is very predictable, because she can't turn or even move in any other direction.

Clyde: Lastly, Clyde's classic pattern was... completely random. As such, I think a good way to handle this might be that he bounces on the ground, similar to Mario's fireballs, but even bouncier - having the potential to bounce right over (or into!) opponents. This pretty much represents Clyde's presence in the classic game - sure, he might not be a problem, but he's also a very dangerous wild card to have to handle...

So... what are your thoughts? Anyone got any ideas for other moves?

 

[Wonder Smash]

No, he literally said that, and it was written on screen. Doesn't matter if the original discussion was about if Smash was a fighting game, "[it's become] some sort of celebration of gaming or something else entirely" is what he said. Not sure if he's talked about the distinctions between first and third party, as that could be a whole can of worms, but the sentiment is still the same. And when talking about Sora, he talked specifically about how Smash has become such a big collaboration and how thankful he was to other parties for making it possible, describing the difficulties in working with a big company like Disney. He's said this numerous times, in a variety of contexts, I picked that one since it's easier to display as a simple image.

It actually does matter, as it wouldn't make any sense for him to bring that up if he was only just talking about what genre Smash is. What's always been consistent is that he sees Smash not just a traditional fighting game but more than that and that's what he meant when said that in this case.

 

[SPEN18]

Because every piece of transcending Nintendo costs licensing fees?

Ok, it's a little dangerous to suggest that the only reason they'd pick a Nintendo character from a relatively new Nintendo IP is that another third party character would cost too much. That definitely seems like denying the significance of the presence of Nintendo characters in a Nintendo-published game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I feel the exact opposite, I think putting in a character from a series and then moving on feels cynical and makes each “world” added to Smash feel more shallow and puts the burden on a singular character to represent as much as possible from the series. I’d love to see more characters from the same third party series since it makes the series added feel much more fleshed out and allows fighters to stand on their own rather than having to feel/play/look like a simulator from their game.

I'm all about that iconicness.

If a franchise has muliple iconic characters, like Mega Man and Street Fighter, then I say go for it.

But for something like Bayonetta, nobody recognizes anyone else from that series. There's no reason to give that series another fighter(unless it's just and Echo).

 

[CosmicQuark]

It actually does matter, as it wouldn't make any sense for him to bring that up if he was only just talking about what genre Smash is. What's always been consistent is that he sees Smash not just a traditional fighting game but more than that and that's what he meant when said that in this case.

“It’s not a, it’s b.” and “It’s not c, it’s b” doesn’t mean it’s “it’s not b, it’s c.” This is just logic. He’s talked about Smash being a celebration of gaming, multiple times, in terms of not just being a fighting game, but also as being a part of a massive collaboration. And to avoid being told I’m taking Sora’s presentation out of context, here’s the direct Tweet.

The last DLC fighter for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate will be announced on October 5th ET/PT/CEST.
I hope you all join me live for one last celebration of gaming. Make sure to mark the date in your calendars! https://t.co/gV1B8eYROw

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) October 3, 2021

What more do you want? For him to post it on Smashboards?

 

[DanganZilla5]

How are all of you? I'm bored right now so I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on the following characters if they made it into Smash:

• Crash
• Master Chief
• Kratos
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans)
• Bill Rizer
• Dragonborn
• Doomguy
• Agumon
• Nightmare
• Phoenix Wright
• Monokuma

 

[Ivander]

Because hot damn does it suck. Like when Maximilian Dood's reaction to the Byleth presentation is an uninterested "is this a waifu game" jab. Or when Honest Trailers had that god awful "Now they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Who knew who Shulk was before this game? Congrats, you're now Japanese," which was frankly infuriating. Like Jesus Christ just use Google you unfunny voice over man. Look at Project Rainfall. It's not hard. Well joke's on you, now your channel is owned by Fandom and people rightfully hate it. Anyway.

As someone who watches Max and has for years now, sometimes he thinks he's more funny than he actually comes off to be. That said, the dude clearly has expressed his gaming interests, and Fire Emblem in no way falls into that list...and when you consider that popular opinion of Fire Emblem often points to the mobile game which can be very much seen as a waifu collector and the content that Japanese games with relationships in them like to put in, it's not hard to see where that kind of remark comes from.

Part of that issue comes from the modern view of comedy, with the whole "Offend people for laughs" deal and whatnot. But that mainly works when both the comedian and the person they are offending have knowledge and are aware about the issues and can agree about those issues. And you can have differing types that can be good.

• One type being where the comedian and the offendee are fans of the subject and the the subject can be something the offendee really likes, but understands why other fans would think differently.
• Another type is where the comedian is not knowledgeable of the content the offendee knows about, but isn't trying to necessarily be offensive and talks more from a "outsiders" perspective. Like the one who acknowledges that they aren't knowledgeable on the subject and is describing what it looks like to them and this can be relatable and funny to the offendee since they may have been in this position before becoming a fan or understand why someone would think that.

But the common type that is often encouraged is the one where the comedian is ignorant of the subject, yet tries to be funny and offending anyway by saying the stuff that other ignorant people tend to say about something, thinking they are being funny, but it comes across as condescending instead. And they don't really attempt to be better because, hey, people should be insulted by comedy, which is missing the point on why some offensive comedy is funny.
It's much like with Veggie Tales doing the "Randomly generated" humor when they try to be funny by being random and Bob brings up the point of "It's funny because it makes sense." The best offensive jokes are the ones where both the comedian and the offendee are aware of the context and can both laugh about it, because it's often something that both have an understanding of. Heck, even alot of jokes, like in modern stuff like Gravity Falls, that come across as random or fast-paced often still have context or something relatable that allows one to understand and laugh about it.
Without an understanding of the context or deliberately ignoring the context just for laughs, it just comes across as being offending for the sake of offending, which misses the point on why the funny offensive jokes are, well, funny. But sadly in today's internet, being random or offending for the sake of offending is something that is encouraged way too much. And it sucks that more than often, it overshadows the actual good humor.
---
On that same subject for a different reason...

Man, Whose Line is such a good show.

 

[CosmicQuark]

How are all of you? I'm bored right now so I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on the following characters if they made it into Smash:

• Crash
• Master Chief
• Kratos
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans)
• Bill Rizer
• Dragonborn
• Doomguy
• Agumon
• Nightmare
• Phoenix Wright
• Monokuma

• Crash: My most wanted since Banjo & Kazooie were announced, and my second most wanted during the Ultimate hype cycle. Would be great to see with icons like Mario and Sonic, and has moves made for Smash.
• Master Chief: Don't care for the character personally, but would be hugely impactful in the West and go beyond appealing to Nintendo fans, more than any character so far.
• Kratos: Don't care personally, but is probably the only impossible character left after Sora.
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans): Don't know, sorry.
• Bill Rizer: I think Contra is a big enough game to have something in Smash, but I'm not sure what. Haven't been sold on the character yet. And there are some Square Enix Konami characters I'd like before him.
• Dragonborn: Skyrim can be played on a fridge, so why not Smash?
• Doomguy: Master Chief is the break the internet character, but Doom Slayer is the legacy character. Can't tell what they'd go with after FP2's choices.
• Agumon: The most underdog character I've supported, because I'd like to see Pokemon vs Digimon, though I know there's other Bandai Namco characters fans would want.
• Nightmare: I played a Soul Caliber game briefly with a friend, and it would be interesting to complete the crossover with Link, though not my type.
• Phoenix Wright: Not my personal pick, and I'm not sold on people's reasons for including him, but is one of the more popular Capcom choices. Still, I'd like many other Capcom characters before getting to Phoenix Wright.
• Monokuma: Had to look it up and yeah (I know of the game and seen some of it)--after Sans and Steve there's just no limits. I'd still be surprised, but in the same way I was seeing Steve in.

 

[DanganZilla5]

• Crash: My most wanted since Banjo & Kazooie were announced, and my second most wanted during the Ultimate hype cycle. Would be great to see with icons like Mario and Sonic, and has moves made for Smash.
• Master Chief: Don't care for the character personally, but would be hugely impactful in the West and go beyond appealing to Nintendo fans, more than any character so far.
• Kratos: Don't care personally, but is probably the only impossible character left after Sora.
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans): Don't know, sorry.
• Bill Rizer: I think Contra is a big enough game to have something in Smash, but I'm not sure what. Haven't been sold on the character yet. And there are some Square Enix characters I'd like before him.
• Dragonborn: Skyrim can be played on a fridge, so why not Smash?
• Doomguy: Master Chief is the break the internet character, but Doom Slayer is the legacy character. Can't tell what they'd go with after FP2's choices.
• Agumon: The most underdog character I've supported, because I'd like to see Pokemon vs Digimon, though I know there's other Bandai Namco characters fans would want.
• Nightmare: I played a Soul Caliber game briefly with a friend, and it would be interesting to complete the crossover with Link, though not my type.
• Phoenix Wright: Not my personal pick, and I'm not sold on people's reasons for including him, but is one of the more popular Capcom choices. Still, I'd like many other Capcom characters before getting to Phoenix Wright.
• Monokuma: Had to look it up and yeah (I know of the game and seen some of it)--after Sans and Steve there's just no limits. I'd still be surprised, but in the same way I was seeing Steve in.

Bill Rizer is owned by Konami, not Square. Also, I've got a Contra essay that I can share with you that goes over how his moveset can work. I can gush about Bill Rizer and why he would be a great choice.

 

[Wonder Smash]

“It’s not a, it’s b.” and “It’s not c, it’s b” doesn’t mean it’s “it’s not b, it’s c.” This is just logic.

That's not relevant.

He’s talked about Smash being a celebration of gaming, multiple times, in terms of not just being a fighting game, but also as being a part of a massive collaboration. And to avoid being told I’m taking Sora’s presentation out of context, here’s the direct Tweet.

The last DLC fighter for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate will be announced on October 5th ET/PT/CEST.
I hope you all join me live for one last celebration of gaming. Make sure to mark the date in your calendars! https://t.co/gV1B8eYROw

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) October 3, 2021

What more do you want? For him to post it on Smashboards?

Again, he's not referring to Smash itself being a celebration of gaming. He's referring to a character reveal. Why do you think he says "join me for one last celebration of gaming"? Certainly, he's not saying Smash Ultimate is the last game or something.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Bill Rizer is owned by Konami, not Square. Also, I've got a Contra essay that I can share with you that goes over how his moveset can work. I can gush about Bill Rizer and why he would be a great choice.

Thanks for the correction! I knew that, but often mistake them, though my feelings remain the same (Bomberman is my most wanted from Konami). That being said, I do think Contra is an important game to include in Smash, though without Smash discussions, if I saw the splash screen that "Bill Rizer's in Smash", I'd go who? Despite having known of Contra and some of it's influences. Same happened with Kazuya, and despite my initial gripes, after learning about the character believed it was a better choice than Heihachi (Smash discussions can really poison you're understanding of games). I have seen Source Gaming on the topic of Bill Rizer, but am open to hearing more.

That's not relevant.



Again, he's not referring to Smash itself being a celebration of gaming. He's referring to a character reveal. Why do you think he says "join me for one last celebration of gaming"? Certainly, he's not saying Smash Ultimate is the last game or something.

I really tried hard to consider your post to be genuine and tried to explain, as clearly as possible, why it's not just a matter of opinion but that you were literally wrong about what he said. I can't tell if these semantic games are intentional or not, but it doesn't matter. Sakurai considers Smash a celebration of gaming, has said it multiple times in various contexts, and I'm tired of trying to explain how water is wet. Sorry.

 

[DanganZilla5]

Thanks for the correction! I knew that, but often mistake them, though my feelings remain the same (Bomberman is my most wanted from Konami). That being said, I do think Contra is an important game to include in Smash, though without Smash discussions, if I saw the splash screen that "Bill Rizer's in Smash", I'd go who? Despite having known of Contra and some of it's influences. Same happened with Kazuya, and despite my initial gripes, after learning about the character believed it was a better choice than Heihachi (Smash discussions can really poison you're understanding of games). I have seen Source Gaming on the topic of Bill Rizer, but am open to hearing more.

I'll leave my essay below then. The last part of it is outdated since Ultimate is done but you can still read up on what exciting things he can bring to the table when it comes to the moveset, stage, and music.

 

[JOJONumber691]

This is very early. I’m all in.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I really tried hard to consider your post to be genuine and tried to explain, as clearly as possible, why it's not just a matter of opinion but that you were literally wrong about what he said. I can't tell if these semantic games are intentional or not, but it doesn't matter. Sakurai considers Smash a celebration of gaming, has said it multiple times in various contexts, and I'm tired of trying to explain how water is wet. Sorry.

Except I'm not wrong about what he said. You're just taking what he's saying too literally. The first time was about Smash being described as a fighting game, where he says he doesn't consider it just a fighting game and instead a "celebration of gaming". He clearly didn't mean that in a literal sense. Heck, even in that case, he's clearly going by his own personal view.

Then the second time, he's referring to the last character reveal (hence, "join me for one last celebration of gaming"). So it's best not take what he says too literally, otherwise, are we really going to say Smash is not a fighting game? It clearly is.

How are all of you? I'm bored right now so I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on the following characters if they made it into Smash:

• Crash
• Master Chief
• Kratos
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans)
• Bill Rizer
• Dragonborn
• Doomguy
• Agumon
• Nightmare
• Phoenix Wright
• Monokuma

• Crash: Doesn't matter to me but he would be great.
• Master Chief: Not without any apperances on Nintendo consoles and even then, I prefer Doomguy.
• Kratos: Not without any apperances on Nintendo consoles
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans): I don't really know about this.
• Bill Rizer: Love it! He's the next Konami character I support.
• Dragonborn: Never played the games, so I don't know.
• Doomguy: As you know by now, I support Doomguy 100%.
• Agumon: Never cared much for Digimon
• Nightmare: Like Soul Calibur but have no interest in seeing their characters in Smash.
• Phoenix Wright: Like Ace Attorney but would rather see Arthur as the next Capcom character. Phoenix Wright could make some other appearance, though.
• Monokuma: Not familiar with this character.

 

[JOJONumber691]

How are all of you? I'm bored right now so I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on the following characters if they made it into Smash:

• Crash
• Master Chief
• Kratos
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans)
• Bill Rizer
• Dragonborn
• Doomguy
• Agumon
• Nightmare
• Phoenix Wright
• Monokuma

In order:
Trash
Should be here
Smash Wii U Bayonetta but even more broken.
Gore
No
Could be interesting if done correctly
Should also be here
Crusade did him so well that I don’t want him in officially because it’s likely not gonna be as good.
Eh?
Naruhodo better lol
Lol

 

[CosmicQuark]

Except I'm not wrong about what he said. You're just taking what he's saying too literally. The first time was about Smash being described as a fighting game, where he says he doesn't consider it just a fighting game and instead a "celebration of gaming". He clearly didn't mean that in a literal sense. Heck, even in that case, he's clearly going by his own personal view.

Then the second time, he's referring to the last character reveal (hence, "join me for one last celebration of gaming"). So it's best not take what he says too literally, otherwise, are we really going to say Smash is not a fighting game? It clearly is.

Fine, if only I could find a context where Sakurai mentioned "celebration of gaming" in the specific context of Smash Ultimate, as a game, and not a presentation/character/in relation to a fighting game.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Oh.

By the way, this was just chance coming across this, I was done, but it's too funny not to include. But, again, this is a dumb argument, I always get dragged in by trolls, and it's my fault, ultimately.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Fine, if only I could find a context where Sakurai mentioned "celebration of gaming" in the specific context of Smash Ultimate, as a game, and not a presentation/character/in relation to a fighting game.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Oh.

By the way, this was just chance coming across this, I was done, but it's too funny not to include. But, again, this is a dumb argument, I always get dragged in by trolls, and it's my fault, ultimately.

Immediately follows up with "Smash Ultimate is not an ordinary game", which goes right back to Sakurai's original claim about it not just simply being a fighting game.

Oh and let's not forget the other part of that quote:

"Sakurai felt that he was able to offer a celebration of gaming".

Once again, his personal views.

Though, I don't know exactly where he got that quote from anyway, as we still don't know the full context of that quote.

 

[Shroob]

Immediately follows up with "Smash Ultimate is not an ordinary game", which goes right back to Sakurai's original claim about it not just simply being a fighting game.

Oh and let's not forget the other part of that quote:

"Sakurai felt that he was able to offer a celebration of gaming".

Once again, his personal views.

And I mean, I subscribe to those views.


Because at the end of the day, it's all down to personal belief. I view it as a celebration of gaming, he views it as one, you may not, and that's fine.

 

[Wonder Smash]

The lack of any kind of mention of Billy and Jimmy Lee from Double Dragon makes me sad.

And I mean, I subscribe to those views.


Because at the end of the day, it's all down to personal belief. I view it as a celebration of gaming, he views it as one, you may not, and that's fine.

If you share his views, that's fine too. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

How would Tabuu be stupid for a role?

Any Smash OC would be the biggest waste of a Fighter slot ever.

Well it's true. A lot of praise in regards to Ultimate is about anything but actually playing the game. The quantity of the roster, the fact that most of its DLC newcomers aren't owned by Nintendo, the amount of franchises that have some amount of representation in them. Anything but playing the game.

Well...this is the direct successor of the character speculation thread. So yeah, most folks here talk about the roster, not gameplay.

Also, the game mostly plays fine. Other than new netcode there's nothing to talk about other than FGC-level minutia, which nobody here cares about.

All the more reason to cut down on Third Parties to a minimum and give First Parties the treatment they deserve

They already GOT the treatment they deserve. That's why every 1st party that matters is already IN Smash.

Hero's gimmick also just. .kinda sucked.

Yes. Yes it did.

My only other character I feel should be in Smash, but isn't, is Crash, who is a bigger icon than most of the characters that even appeared in Ultimate (including my #1 pick). Was he not popular on the ballot, more of a hassle to work with Activision than Disney?

Were all his games terrible? Was the notion that he was Mario's rival a laughable fabrication of a marketing campaign? Who can say!

We're well aware that Sakurai now views Smash as a celebration/representation of all of gaming. The claim is that it fails horribly at being that

Maybe back in Brawl. But it's gotten exponentially better at it with each game since. And to suggest it's still failing at this point is asinine.

Ok, it's a little dangerous to suggest that the only reason they'd pick a Nintendo character from a relatively new Nintendo IP is that another third party character would cost too much.

Oh yes. Very dangerous. It's the "exposed rebar" of Smash arguments.

 

[Shroob]

Were all his games terrible? Was the notion that he was Mario's rival a laughable fabrication of a marketing campaign? Who can say!

Like Sonic?

 

[DarthEnderX]

How are all of you? I'm bored right now so I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on the following characters if they made it into Smash:

• Crash
• Master Chief
• Kratos
• Crypto (Destroy All Humans)
• Bill Rizer
• Dragonborn
• Doomguy
• Agumon
• Nightmare
• Phoenix Wright
• Monokuma

Crash - Bleh...
Master Chief - That's fine.
Kratos - That's fine.
Crypto (Destroy All Humans) - Bleh...
Bill Rizer - **** yeah!!
Dragonborn - That's fine.
Doomguy - That's fine.
Agumon - Bleh...
Nightmare - Yeah!
Phoenix Wright - Yeah!
Monokuma - Bleh...

 

[SPEN18]

Maybe back in Brawl. But it's gotten exponentially better at it with each game since. And to suggest it's still failing at this point is asinine.

Where are all the Playstation Allstars? The rest of the Microsoft IPs? The PC gaming scene (maybe you try to focus on console gaming, but then you have the issue of Minecraft originating off-console)? Multiple massive franchises with no playable reps or no representation at all. Whole genres like FPS essentially missing on the roster. There's not even much point in listing all the ways that it fails at celebrating all of gaming because there's so many things missing, and I don't see how it could come reasonably close to representing everything remotely fairly, completely, or coherently. It's too much of a legal and practical mess.

 

[ZelDan]

Well I missed one hell of a moment in this thread.

All I'm going to say is that gatekeeping sucks and that gatekeepers sucks (except for the one from FE Three Houses, he's cool). It sucks whether it is against first parties or against third parties. Whether it is against obsure/niche characters or big/popular ones, western ones, Japanese ones, classic ones, modern ones, etc etc

There are still cool characters owned by Nintendo that would be great additions to Smash

There are still cool characters that are owned by third parties that would be great additions to Smash

Regardless of how you feel about the whole 1st party vs 3rd party stuff, we're likely going to see plenty of first and third party characters come Smash 6, so...learn to deal with it either way I guess?

 

[Shroob]

Where are all the Playstation Allstars? The rest of the Microsoft IPs? The PC gaming scene (maybe you try to focus on console gaming, but then you have the issue of Minecraft originating off-console)? Multiple massive franchises with no playable reps or no representation at all. Whole genres like FPS essentially missing on the roster. There's not even much point in listing all the ways that it fails at celebrating all of gaming because there's so many things missing, and I don't see how it could come reasonably close to representing everything remotely fairly, completely, or coherently. It's too much of a legal and practical mess.

In their own game.

And not even then, they missed a ton.



The fact is, you're never going to 100% make something like that, but at the end of the day? Frankly, that's okay.

 

[SPEN18]

In their own game.

And not even then, they missed a ton.



The fact is, you're never going to 100% make something like that, but at the end of the day? Frankly, that's okay.

Of course you're not gonna get 100%. But there should be some sort of balance or coherence that I just don't see in Ultimate. Instead of trying to be something you can't, just be really really good at what you are already.

You're right, the Playstation Allstars are in their own game. And maybe that's where they belong.

 

[Shroob]

Of course you're not gonna get 100%. But there should be some sort of balance or coherence that I just don't see in Ultimate. Instead of trying to be something you can't, just be really really good at what you are already.

You're right, the Playstation Allstars are in their own game. And maybe that's where they belong.

I mean, is it not?


And PSASBR didn't even do that good of a job representing Sony. Raiden over Snake? No Cloud? No Lara Croft? No Crash? No Spyro? Like, yeah, these aren't inherently Sony characters per-se, but if you had asked people who they'd associate characters like Crash or Spyro with when it came out, I'd 100% bet they'd have said Sony.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Were all his games terrible? Was the notion that he was Mario's rival a laughable fabrication of a marketing campaign? Who can say!

I think once Nintendo called Crash an icon, that stuff became water under the bridge. After all, Rare's digs at Nintendo with Nuts & Bolts didn't hurt B&K's chances (jk, Japan hasn't played it). Nintendo likes money, if they think Crash can make them money, no amount of "plumber boy" is going to dissuade them. Also a combination of the original Smash 64 trailer and Crash coming in in-costume with a megaphone would be hilarious.

And not even then, they missed a ton.

Almost all the ones they missed are now in Smash.

EDIT:

It's really weird how people don't understand the concept of "Let's put everything we can in the game, and of course, that would mean putting in a ton of stuff we already own."