Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

i'm getting that feeling not everyone was paying attention during XC3

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Guideline is a synonym for rule. Sooooooo... yeah, my point still stands. Albeit, trying to fully divide game franchises solely on first releases is not exactly the only way to build a roster. People can do that if they want. But it's got nothing to do with Smash in itself. Sometimes a single game can get multiple characters. But there's context to why. The real reason why ARMS is unlikely to get any more is due to its circumstances. The game barely got a demo and then fell off to the wayside. There's no real clamoring for a sequel or an updated re-release. It just wasn't that popular. That means it's unlikely to be looked at again. On the other hand, this wouldn't prevent it from getting a character by Sakurai. There's just other new and relevant series who would easily take priority. But if he finds somebody he likes from an older game, including ARMS, and easily can put them in at the same time? The only real thing preventing him from doing so is Nintendo at best.

Something also to consider as to why it might not get another one; Sakurai did think about it, but the game missed the entire deadline. However, he wasn't in charge of DLC beyond PP either way in terms of outright choosing who to put in. Nintendo legit wanted to push the series again(for all we know, a sequel is of interest for the next system, but the demo didn't have a big splash, so it may have not been greenlit too), but also it's pretty easy to see it's a unique ones to propose to Sakurai. But also given Min Min was chosen beforehand and requested to them by ARMS' creator, it just fell in line well as is. The rest of the story is also simple. Min Min required a major delay to make her work. Nintendo still had interest in the series too, so created a guessing game to try and garner enough attention to keep it in people's minds. After she was chosen, mind you. Then it led to her reveal, and a free demo in order to, as noted, garner interest. While it didn't work, it was better than being massively in the dark after Byleth, since we at least knew the franchise.

But yeah, faith in ARMS does appear to be much smaller, so the idea of a re-release is pretty unlikely, meaning it'll lack spotlight and even that kind of minor relevancy. They also cancelled the only Manga related to it, further causing issues, as it getting even merchandise in general beyond the respective amiibo is unlikely. At most, the amiibo isn't terribly hard to find right now.

So like I said, there's logical reasons why ARMS wouldn't get more characters. On the other hand, Sakurai could've been asked to do Spring Man and Ribbon Girl via an echo situation instead, and it would've worked great. It's just the case that the creator's favorite(of his two favorites, respectively) also had a lot of unique material to work with(which could even part of why he would ask Nintendo that. She stands out more with a more specialized ARM).

Protip: Semantics are not an argument alone. Especially if you refuse to back them up. It's made worse if you're using a synonym, which, well, makes your point meaningless. Dropping it is also a better solution if you don't feel like trying to go further. Sometimes your point can't be well proven, and that's okay.

 

[Aligo]

With the smash DLC, weren't some of the fighters were cut content in the case of first parties? The Sakurai presents talks about how they tried to make Rex+Pyra but had troubles with engine limitations and so it was never completed.

 

[Quillion]

I still think Melia is a better choice than any of XC3's party members assuming Smash's philosophy of "bring as much veterans back as possible" stays where it is.

I stand by my opinion that "wait and see" works better for that philosophy. If not "wait and see", it's time for a more liberal attitude towards cuts.

 

[SPEN18]

I would say that, generally, 1-game franchise effectively equals a 1 rep max. It's not a hard and/or written rule, but in terms of getting as many franchises represented as possible I think it just really hard to justify two reps from a 1-game series. Basically always with the smaller series I'd rather have multiple series get in than have multiple reps from one, even one I particularly like. Tho 1 rep + 1 Echo from a 1-game series could possibly be okay depending on the circumstances.
But, yeah, not a rule but just generally very hard to justify. More like "effectively ends up being the case" than "we are saying explicitly that it is the case."

On ARMS specifically, yeah, it just really needs a sequel or else there's not going to be a strong motivator for another rep, barring an unforeseen wave of fan demand for a particular character.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

With the smash DLC, weren't some of the fighters were cut content in the case of first parties? The Sakurai presents talks about how they tried to make Rex+Pyra but had troubles with engine limitations and so it was never completed.

It wasn't in that case. That was referring to how he tried to make Rex work as DLC. Rex wasn't on the table due to the game releasing way too late to be in the base game. Rex and ARMS(it's unclear who it is, but it was probably Spring Man at the time, if only due to a very lifelike AT, suggesting it's who he'd have taken during the base game. There's also no strong evidence beyond who it could be, regardless of favorites. Even Sakurai viewed him somewhat as the main character. It's also possible the Manga was greenlit at the time with him as the main character, so it was the most logical choice to consider with no other influences, including the creator asked Nintendo for a specific option to be put in). Rex also got a DLC costume because he knew people wanted him in. I forget the details of how he talked about Rex missing the base game, though.

Basically, you're slightly mixing up the final story. It didn't help that Sakurai has talked about both series missing the base game, so it's not hard for people to heavily theorize based purely upon a whim. Somebody probably said that at some point, despite the details being clear enough otherwise. It's actually common for people to only look at stuff like headlines, and not get some of the details. It's how it leads to a lot of very poor "you're wrong, I'm right" kind of arguments(obviously they're not legit points in any context).

...Though to be fair, your wording is kind of odd so I might be reading it wrong.

 

[fogbadge]

With the smash DLC, weren't some of the fighters were cut content in the case of first parties? The Sakurai presents talks about how they tried to make Rex+Pyra but had troubles with engine limitations and so it was never completed.

yeah the game couldn’t handle characters of their designs all at once or at least not in 8 player. so he sat down considered the various combos you could have with them and went for what we got

 

[Aligo]

Ah, that makes sense, I was mixing the stories for Rex and spring man. I still think the best way of adding Rex would be via a Z air for Aegis, as anchor shot is the first driver art he uses and is prominent in cutscenes.

As far as third parties go, other than sonic because that would be obvious, which franchise in smash has the most potential for a new rep?

 

[Quillion]

Ah, that makes sense, I was mixing the stories for Rex and spring man. I still think the best way of adding Rex would be via a Z air for Aegis, as anchor shot is the first driver art he uses and is prominent in cutscenes.

As far as third parties go, other than sonic because that would be obvious, which franchise in smash has the most potential for a new rep?

Final Fantasy, if only because Smash's current representation of said series almost completely ignores everything outside 7.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As far as third parties go, other than sonic because that would be obvious, which franchise in smash has the most potential for a new rep?

MegaMan(including its sub franchises) has a load of notable characters, and Castlevania at bare minimum has Alucard. Also, many Echo options alone.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Street Fighter is still rife with selections if Nintendo/Sakurai wants to go that way.

 

[SPEN18]

Given that in base there are usually only 1-2 third party newcomers, they will probably prioritize new series for those, save for potential Echoes.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I would say that, generally, 1-game franchise effectively equals a 1 rep max. It's not a hard and/or written rule, but in terms of getting as many franchises represented as possible I think it just really hard to justify two reps from a 1-game series. Basically always with the smaller series I'd rather have multiple series get in than have multiple reps from one, even one I particularly like. Tho 1 rep + 1 Echo from a 1-game series could possibly be okay depending on the circumstances.
But, yeah, not a rule but just generally very hard to justify. More like "effectively ends up being the case" than "we are saying explicitly that it is the case."

On ARMS specifically, yeah, it just really needs a sequel or else there's not going to be a strong motivator for another rep, barring an unforeseen wave of fan demand for a particular character.

Does it? Even a re-release with updated stuff on the newest console is enough. It getting new products(like a Manga, any kind of merchandise), counts too.

It doesn't need a sequel. It just needs the franchise to be in the spotlight first. And considering how quickly the franchise immediately died after the demo, it's pretty clear that the likeliness of that is really low.

Which means that while it's unlikely to get a character in itself, it'd be mainly for two reasons; other works simply were more relevant and there wasn't enough time to add another ARMS character or Nintendo actually doesn't want it to happen(so only the first one has a real chance). Remember, single game franchises can still be huge(ARMS' issue is more that it isn't).

That, and trying to apply a rep per game doesn't really work because the important part is more about how the character is overall added. There's sometimes too little content they can bring so more than one rep is needed to properly represent said game. There's also cases where it's easy to add 2 more characters(for instance, Mother. Porky and Ninten are very easy to add, if not the two most plausible choices. One's an Echo, and one's unique. This is what I mean by the context of additions too. Yes, it'd get 4 characters with 3 games. But the number isn't important. It's also representing the core villain and every protagonist of note). There's also reasons to not put both in. Ninten's design was basically a proto-Ness overall and they aren't significantly different. We also have two movesets that represent the same thing(borrowing from the rest of the team to make a coherent moveset), meaning that Ninten doesn't bring much to the table over Ness and Lucas as an Echo. On the other hand, being a semi-clone that references abilities from his unique teammates(for instance, one has a katana) changes that. And Porky is justified on his own. Claus also exists, incidentally(though they're kind of no real way to make Giegue/Giygas plausible due to being a 100% blank slate beyond the design. That's his concept, after all).

It's why the guideline isn't useful. It has to remove any and all context to make an arbitrary thing. Characters aren't their franchises, but actual characters first and foremost. There's tons of ways to represent them too. Especially when many characters don't really represent pieces of their franchises in general(none of the Super Mario characters is about the franchise specifically, but more about their own skills or at least in PP's case, related to its overall various species. Daisy is kind of the only stand-out in that regard). I could go on, but basically it's way too arbitrary in itself and needs to be a case-by-case basis. And for the record, I don't think ARMS will get another character anyway, cause it's clear the franchise just isn't doing well, which means anything, including re-releases, aren't too likely. Sometimes franchises die out. Whereas sometimes franchises finish(like Mother), and at least that has gotten re-releases, so it's not "dead" by all means. A franchise is only truly dead if it sees zero use, which to be fair, isn't surprisingly that often as one would think, heh.

 

[Perkilator]

Given that in base there are usually only 1-2 third party newcomers, they will probably prioritize new series for those, save for potential Echoes.

Speaking of potential new franchises:

Feature: "I'm Hugely Disappointed We Did Not Make It In Time To Get Into Smash Bros." - Yoko Taro Talks NieR:Automata On Switch https://t.co/vYbW3HrJKj #Interview #NintendoSwitch #SquareEnix #YokoTaro pic.twitter.com/hzG0jqbJ8D

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) November 5, 2022

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Speaking of potential new franchises:

Feature: "I'm Hugely Disappointed We Did Not Make It In Time To Get Into Smash Bros." - Yoko Taro Talks NieR:Automata On Switch https://t.co/vYbW3HrJKj #Interview #NintendoSwitch #SquareEnix #YokoTaro pic.twitter.com/hzG0jqbJ8D

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) November 5, 2022

It'll be interesting to see if Drakengard/Nier starts getting more releases on Switch in general. Square Enix has started to pivot doing more releases and (non Cloud) ports for Nintendo in the last 18 months. so between the safety net of the Switch install base in Japan and audiences being introduced to the universe from Nier Automata, there could be a future there.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Speaking of potential new franchises:

Feature: "I'm Hugely Disappointed We Did Not Make It In Time To Get Into Smash Bros." - Yoko Taro Talks NieR:Automata On Switch https://t.co/vYbW3HrJKj #Interview #NintendoSwitch #SquareEnix #YokoTaro pic.twitter.com/hzG0jqbJ8D

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) November 5, 2022

insert joke about Smash 6 leaks here

 

[fogbadge]

It'll be interesting to see if Drakengard/Nier starts getting more releases on Switch in general. Square Enix has started to pivot doing more releases and (non Cloud) ports for Nintendo in the last 18 months. so between the safety net of the Switch install base in Japan and audiences being introduced to the universe from Nier Automata, there could be a future there.

you say that as if we haven't been getting SE games on nintendo consoles for years

 

[dream1ng]

Rules and guidelines aren't the same thing. Rules are mandated and guidelines are protocols which you are more encouraged but not obligated to follow.

There is no rule that a one-game series can't have more than one character. In theory, it could. But expecting it seems unwise. The belief that it won't happen seems a salient guideline to me.

To that end if ARMS doesn't get another game, it getting another character seems a dubious proposition. Maybe if they were looking for padding and did a semi-clone kinda thing.

Speaking of potential new franchises:

Feature: "I'm Hugely Disappointed We Did Not Make It In Time To Get Into Smash Bros." - Yoko Taro Talks NieR:Automata On Switch https://t.co/vYbW3HrJKj #Interview #NintendoSwitch #SquareEnix #YokoTaro pic.twitter.com/hzG0jqbJ8D

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) November 5, 2022

With the series on the grow (and on Nintendo), the character's existing popularity (especially in Japan) and several of Square's biggest faces already included (or sold), I'm expecting 2B to be a very prolific candidate next time.

To the point I'm expecting we can endure some real fun debates regarding her vs Geno.

It'll be interesting to see if Drakengard/Nier starts getting more releases on Switch in general. Square Enix has started to pivot doing more releases and (non Cloud) ports for Nintendo in the last 18 months. so between the safety net of the Switch install base in Japan and audiences being introduced to the universe from Nier Automata, there could be a future there.

With the way Square is likely to treat the IP, as a fledging a-tier, it seems unlikely we'd get new mainline titles day and date, but ports and spin-offs seem right in the wheelhouse of what's plausible.

Not that it matters past helping 2B's popularity, since the level of support rarely is a correlation to the character actually getting in, unless through the indirect route of fan demand.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

you say that as if we haven't been getting SE games on nintendo consoles for years

I mean in the sense that it feels like there's a small shift from SE seemingly treating it as another console in the DS/3DS early on to more regularly putting out (occasionally timed) console exclusives and actually putting in the resources for competent current generation ports like Nier Automata. Heck just at how much content from SE made up the last Nintendo Direct. I'm not saying its a big fundamental change, but especially with big projects like Avengers/Babylon's Fall losing money, and even Guardians of the Galaxy underperforming, I think one could make the case SE sees the Switch as very good safety net (especially in Japan) for a wide variety of projects, even if many of them are more modest than the stuff on PS4/5.

 

[fogbadge]

I mean in the sense that it feels like there's a small shift from SE seemingly treating it as another console in the DS/3DS early on to more regularly putting out (occasionally timed) console exclusives and actually putting in the resources for competent current generation ports like Nier Automata. Heck just at how much content from SE made up the last Nintendo Direct?

To be fair though they’re putting nearly everything on the switch

On a completely unrelated note, anyone seen the chest?

 

[dream1ng]

Square's support of Switch is fantastic, but keep in mind it's almost exclusively smaller titles, older ports and spin-offs.

The higher-profile, higher-budget, more tentpole stuff was much less consistently present, and that's closer to where Nier aligns now.

Maybe things will change when the more powerful successor shows up, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Square's support of Switch is fantastic, but keep in mind it's almost exclusively smaller titles, older ports and spin-offs.

The higher-profile, higher-budget, more tentpole stuff was much less consistently present, and that's closer to where Nier aligns now.

Maybe things will change when the more powerful successor shows up, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Realistically, this will probably be the most ideal strategy for SE. Nintendo will not have the higher end hardware that SE wants for the big stuff, but the install base for the Switch is big enough for modest projects to do well. This is especially true in Japan where many non-AAA JRPG's have been dying a death if they're PS4/PS5 only because Nintendo has eaten up so much of the market.

In a lot of ways its not too dissimilar to the early aughts where the losses of the Spirits Within movie meant Square was looking to do smaller scale games like portable remakes to earn safe money on a consistent basis. Hence why they mended fences with Nintendo; getting stuff like FF remakes on the Game Boy Advance was the only real option they had for that market at that point and is more or less the thing that ensured the two companies kept up a strong relationship via portable systems for the next 15 plus years even when there wasn't much going on from Square for Nintendo home consoles.

 

[SPEN18]

Does it? Even a re-release with updated stuff on the newest console is enough. It getting new products(like a Manga, any kind of merchandise), counts too.

I presume you're talking about ARMS specifically, here. What I said is it's not a hard rule that it couldn't get another character with only one game, but as you say it's going to be very difficult without some extra circumstance like clonability or a massive upswing in fan demand.
A re-release kinda-sorta counts as a second game? But still, the record shows that ports, re-releases, and remakes typically don't get dedicated reps in Smash so it would still be an uphill battle even with that. New products and merch can only go so far without another game (and without another game it's probably only likely to get a limited amount of new merch).

That, and trying to apply a rep per game doesn't really work because the important part is more about how the character is overall added. There's sometimes too little content they can bring so more than one rep is needed to properly represent said game. There's also cases where it's easy to add 2 more characters(for instance, Mother. Porky and Ninten are very easy to add, if not the two most plausible choices. One's an Echo, and one's unique. This is what I mean by the context of additions too. Yes, it'd get 4 characters with 3 games. But the number isn't important. It's also representing the core villain and every protagonist of note). There's also reasons to not put both in. Ninten's design was basically a proto-Ness overall and they aren't significantly different. We also have two movesets that represent the same thing(borrowing from the rest of the team to make a coherent moveset), meaning that Ninten doesn't bring much to the table over Ness and Lucas as an Echo. On the other hand, being a semi-clone that references abilities from his unique teammates(for instance, one has a katana) changes that. And Porky is justified on his own. Claus also exists, incidentally(though they're kind of no real way to make Giegue/Giygas plausible due to being a 100% blank slate beyond the design. That's his concept, after all).

I didn't say one rep per game. I just said that if you only have one, then generally you're not getting more than one rep unless there are clones or extremely rare circumstances going your way. Once you have multiple games, especially if you're getting successful releases fairly regularly, then getting more reps is just easier regardless of the exact numbers because the series is easier to view as "having a future."

Also the Mother example seems a bit flawed since even with the hypothetical four characters, two would be potentially borrowing pretty heavily from Ness. And we have no evidence that Mother getting more than 2 reps would even be remotely likely anyway; after all, they cut Lucas in base 4 rather than adding Porky on top of him and Ness. I'm sure they're aware that Porky is popular and arguably iconic, but they're simply not likely to devote a ton of resources to a series of Mother's size unless it gets more releases. You could say on the other end that number of games matters heavily for Fire Emblem; even though it sells less per game than other series, it's gotten lots of reps in part due to having a long, consistent history and a consequently big library (though you can argue the rotating cast and some alleged favoritism have to do with it, too).

Maybe a better example is Splatoon. Like, could you imagine it having four reps despite only having three games? In a hypothetical scenario where the timeline works out more in its favor, I feel like it could with, say: Inkling, Octoling, DJ Octavio, Squid Sisters. It won't get to four next game I don't think, but imagine a slightly different timeline where Splatoon 1 is early enough to make it into 4, maybe even base 4, with the 3 games in the series having the same levels of success that they did. It's purely hypothetical and shows how perfectly things have to line up for it to happen, but there's a scenario in which I think more reps than games isn't completely impossible.

It's why the guideline isn't useful. It has to remove any and all context to make an arbitrary thing.

I'd argue it's at least a good starting point. You ask yourself: how successful has this series been, and in that light, how many resources and promotions is it worth devoting to it through Smash? That's not unreasonable, prioritizing giving multiple reps to series which are highly successful. If anything, it's natural. That doesn't mean you need hard rules or a well-defined formula for exactly how many reps each series gets. It doesn't force people to stop supporting characters they think should be in for whatever reasons they may have. And as you say, the characters are front-and-center and are the core of Smash. Exceptions to even the hardest of rules can potentially be made for the right characters. But guidelines are useful, at the very least for helping to narrow down an ocean of options.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Rules and guidelines aren't the same thing. Rules are mandated and guidelines are protocols which you are more encouraged but not obligated to follow.

There is no rule that a one-game series can't have more than one character. In theory, it could. But expecting it seems unwise. The belief that it won't happen seems a salient guideline to me.

To that end if ARMS doesn't get another game, it getting another character seems a dubious proposition. Maybe if they were looking for padding and did a semi-clone kinda thing.

The point was that context matters, and yes, they are synonyms in the end.

Remember, semantics isn't a good point. It's clear I meant guidelines but used the wrong word. It changes nothing of what I said beyond a word, so you're focusing clearly on the wrong point entirely.

ARMS, as I said before, does not need another game. It just needs to have the franchise have some kind of use consistently for it to be remotely plausible. An updated re-release on the next system? New merchandise? A new manga? Yup. All of those are the same key impact. The franchise is being used.

Business doesn't work on "no new content" either exclusively either. It works on said content being in constant use. If a company keeps releasing the same game on more consoles, they continue to get money. Which can, well, including licensing in general. It's not "free" to distribute. That means the product is being outright paid for.

This is why the whole relevancy thing is misunderstood a lot too. Relevancy isn't about "new only of that specific kind of product", it's more about how the companies want to keep a franchise active. I personally used the term "life support" if a franchise gets no new content but is still in use, since it's a fittingly accurate description. Banjo & Kazooie were a great example of this... till being added into Smash Ultimate but also till they got amiibo and various new merchandise, putting them back into relevancy.

Either way, I don't see ARMS being out of the running based upon some arbitrary guideline that has no strong basis on its own(it has to make sense in context first). I do see it being unlikely to get a character based upon actual priority, not a guideline that has never been spoken of in Smash. Incidentally, this isn't calling the guideline bad whatsoever for others to use, but it's a very large guideline to apply to Smash and can eliminate a huge portion of potential characters on its own. That's something that needs an actual source to be believe as something more than "it entirely depends upon context first".

(I should clarify that this is my view of it. Obviously many will disagree, but there's really nothing more for me to respond to. So if somebody responds and I don't reply back, I'm not ignoring you. I just basically put all my thoughts in already~)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yes, I got grand slammed by that abomination at the end of a 60+ hour playthrough, where other issues had already made me quite nervous. It hurt so much it made me put my tinfoil conspiracy hat on to find out what on earth went wrong with the game in development terms. From what I have discovered so far, a whole lot.

Spoiler: spoilers

I am pretty sure the DLC will dig the hole deeper too, based upon the first wave. Also the fact that Tora is more powerful than Klaus for some god forsaken reason.

Spoiler

Wait did Tora create Origin? Nia being the Queen of Agnus and Tora doing all that makes Rex an even less impressive character compared to his team members. Just wow. Where was this ever confirmed ? I must say, I found the dialogue between the Queens and the cast somewhat boring, and I always played this game late after work and the gym, often was half asleep so missed some story segments.

But yeah, I hope the DLC fixes things. We see the weapons of Shulk, Rex and Noah on the DLC purchase screen so that does imply the three protagonists will meet up most likely.

Spoiler

I just hate how it ended with the Noah and Mio romance finally taking place , and them tearing them apart from each other right away. That's heart breaking, but that's the best part of the ending unfortunately. What about the City people? Why spend all this time building connections between the Colonies if all didn't matter in the end ? The war between Keves and Agnus could've raged on , it would result in the same in the end. It makes the whole Ouroborus "power in unity" theme not have a lasting impact. One thing it does though, is justify N and M somewhat. Them "dying" together just moments prior was the other strong delivery for the ending.

But overall, the ending is terrible. And I noticed this with Fire Emblem Three Hopes too, and I hope both games get this fixed with DLC.

 

[Geno Boost]

Speaking of potential new franchises:

Feature: "I'm Hugely Disappointed We Did Not Make It In Time To Get Into Smash Bros." - Yoko Taro Talks NieR:Automata On Switch https://t.co/vYbW3HrJKj #Interview #NintendoSwitch #SquareEnix #YokoTaro pic.twitter.com/hzG0jqbJ8D

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) November 5, 2022

This shows me that There are 3 types people
Bethesda, Toby fox, wayforward who were all happy with Sans, Doomguy, Shantae Mii costume
then there is Travis Touchdown creator who was disappointed with the Mii custome
then there is 2B creator who is disappointed for not even asking for a Mii costume when he had the chance to

 

[fogbadge]

Spoiler

Wait did Tora create Origin? Nia being the Queen of Agnus and Tora doing all that makes Rex an even less impressive character compared to his team members. Just wow. Where was this ever confirmed ? I must say, I found the dialogue between the Queens and the cast somewhat boring, and I always played this game late after work and the gym, often was half asleep so missed some story segments.

Spoiler

a character who was long dead by that time?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Spoiler

a character who was long dead by that time?

Wrong one to ask here, I'm seeking answers to this myself.

 

[fogbadge]

Wrong one to ask here, I'm seeking answers to this myself.

well I understood the plot completely so I’ll go double check

 

[dream1ng]

The point was that context matters, and yes, they are synonyms in the end.

Remember, semantics isn't a good point. It's clear I meant guidelines but used the wrong word. It changes nothing of what I said beyond a word, so you're focusing clearly on the wrong point entirely.

ARMS, as I said before, does not need another game. It just needs to have the franchise have some kind of use consistently for it to be remotely plausible. An updated re-release on the next system? New merchandise? A new manga? Yup. All of those are the same key impact. The franchise is being used.

Business doesn't work on "no new content" either exclusively either. It works on said content being in constant use. If a company keeps releasing the same game on more consoles, they continue to get money. Which can, well, including licensing in general. It's not "free" to distribute. That means the product is being outright paid for.

This is why the whole relevancy thing is misunderstood a lot too. Relevancy isn't about "new only of that specific kind of product", it's more about how the companies want to keep a franchise active. I personally used the term "life support" if a franchise gets no new content but is still in use, since it's a fittingly accurate description. Banjo & Kazooie were a great example of this... till being added into Smash Ultimate but also till they got amiibo and various new merchandise, putting them back into relevancy.

Either way, I don't see ARMS being out of the running based upon some arbitrary guideline that has no strong basis on its own(it has to make sense in context first). I do see it being unlikely to get a character based upon actual priority, not a guideline that has never been spoken of in Smash. Incidentally, this isn't calling the guideline bad whatsoever for others to use, but it's a very large guideline to apply to Smash and can eliminate a huge portion of potential characters on its own. That's something that needs an actual source to be believe as something more than "it entirely depends upon context first".

Well I only spent the first part on the semantics, the next two I outlined my practical beliefs, which I stand by. It's not a rule, it could happen, but if ARMS doesn't get a new game, I don't think it will (possible derivative character aside), regardless of how else they use the property.

Maybe it if was a different kind of game, a sole title designed to be a longstanding service, and a successful one at that. That could feasibly eschew those guidelines. But a game like ARMS? Successful, but not profoundly successful. Not second original character seven, eight, nine years after its one title successful. I don't see it, regardless of any merch that might float by.

 

[fogbadge]

well I understood the plot completely so I’ll go double check

checked and it turned out no

 

[Aligo]

Sorry, delete this

 

[fogbadge]

Spoiler: more XC3 rant

where on earth did the urayans go? How the hell is Nia still alive and meila not old? Scratch that what skinwalker replaced nia in the time skip? How do the two nations even have a war , considering the whole population consists of like 500 people in unrelated hobo camps, with nothing in the way of supply lines and equipment. Monolith does know about this stuff, because they explored it in XC2. Also, just about everything relating to Mr bootleg end singer is flat out garbage, and he is supposed to be the main villan. Like are we supposed to believe he coincidentally farted out a new cloud sea? Why do nopons and artificial blades still have the power of the conduit, despite its supposed destruction? Why do the child soldiers act like drama kids rather than actual child soldiers? Who made Taion's designer glasses? Why did all the old settlements magically disappear? If you have a very short lifespan on the total population due to the flame clocks, how do you meet the population replacement rate? Is Tora the main villan? Nothing is really answerd, partially because the story ends at chapter 6 while the full game goes on for longer.

Uh maybe got a bit angry best not to read the spoilers like not rude but

wow you did not understand that game at all

Spoiler

the vandam family are there, they’re urayans. Nia is a flesh eater and effectively immortal as established in 2. Melia is from a race of very long lived people as established in 1. I think you missed the point that origin can infinity recreate people. They get their supplies from the remnants of the two worlds and traditional things like farming. Who said they do? A nopon most likely made taions glasses. How many child soldiers do you know? they were born and programmed to love in this world. The settlements vanished most likely due to the never ending war. Again infinite cloning.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Speaking of potential new franchises:

Feature: "I'm Hugely Disappointed We Did Not Make It In Time To Get Into Smash Bros." - Yoko Taro Talks NieR:Automata On Switch https://t.co/vYbW3HrJKj #Interview #NintendoSwitch #SquareEnix #YokoTaro pic.twitter.com/hzG0jqbJ8D

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) November 5, 2022

This is another instance where a company mentions a character appearing in a game on a Nintendo console before they appear in Smash. It's not something shared by just the fans.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It bears repeating that talking down to people is a good way to make them ignore you instead. Just be respectful. If you can't be, then you shouldn't be replying. You don't need to prove a point. That's not important. Conversation here is meant to be kind and respectful and done in good faith. Good faith requires more than saying information that's correct. It requires you to meet a person somewhere in the middle for understanding. It requires to respect a person. It requires you to also put effort into any debate("because I said so" is not a legitimate argument, and that should be obvious to everyone that it's as effective as screaming at the top of your lungs. In other words, they can and will not listen either way. Nor should they) point so a person at least knows what you mean.

Right now, this is starting to lose the focus on good faith discussion and is becoming overly heated for quite literally no legitimate reason(Okay, that's not fair. Being heated is never justified in any way. If you can't talk respectfully, stop posting and take a breather).

For the record, yes, I am reporting these posts and have no qualms making that clear here. Please show better maturity than trying to step on other people to make your points. It doesn't work. We're all mature enough to be more careful about how we write. If you don't believe me, I've rewritten things over 20 times just to make sure it sounds way better, including after posting it, realizing it sounded worse than imagined. It's always better to keep yourself in check, and not expect others to do so for you. We're better than that. A lot better than that.

 

[Aligo]

wow you did not understand that game at all

Spoiler

the vandam family are there, they’re urayans. Nia is a flesh eater and effectively immortal as established in 2. Melia is from a race of very long lived people as established in 1. I think you missed the point that origin can infinity recreate people. They get their supplies from the remnants of the two worlds and traditional things like farming. Who said they do? A nopon most likely made taions glasses. How many child soldiers do you know? they were born and programmed to love in this world. The settlements vanished most likely due to the never ending war. Again infinite cloning.

Spoiler: some stuff

long lived doesn't mean forever, and it must have been a really long time since the last games, like hundreds of years and no high enita has lived that long without any signs of aging. Supply point still stands, scavenging would not sustain any kind of conflict for a long period and no manufacturing plants exist in the world. Speak ing of the world, it pretty empty for a xenoblade game. The music is a big let down too. Combat becomes a flowchart once you find the chain attack button and the oroborous forms are pretty useless. Speaking of which, how do those even work, they kind of go against the whole merge into oblivion thing they had going on. Even sonic 06 had a better plot than this. The game lies somewhere between gross incompetence and deliberate malpractice

 

[Aligo]

Should we just bury the hatchet fog? For the sake of the discussion actually being about smash speculation? Sorry by the way, it was my fault for going off on a tirade.


Have a spheal

 

[SPEN18]

This is another instance where a company mentions a character appearing in a game on a Nintendo console before they appear in Smash. It's not something shared by just the fans.

Speaking of that, did the following really not get brought up or did I just miss it?

In response to being asked directly about FFVII not being released on a Nintendo console, Sakurai said:

"A number of people fixate on the fact his original game was never released on a Nintendo console, but if we were to limit our choices to characters who appeared on a Nintendo console, we’d end up with Bartz from FFV or the Onion Knight from FFIII—how would that work?"

but then also

"I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though."

link to full article:

Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 2

Sakurai discusses all seven of the DLC characters in Smash for Wii U/3DS.

sourcegaming.info

--

There's a lot of ways to interpret that, and that's only part of what he said. To be honest I simply disagree with some things Sakurai says in this article but that's just me.

 

[Aligo]

you must not have heard. apparently there's a lot of super evil stuff going on underneath Ukraine like super bio weapons labs and baby factories. reminds me of the plot line. keep getting reborn to fight again. sound like continuously generating new strains of super bioweapons. and the war machines drain the life out of the soldiers. sounds like what the banksters do to all the countries.

Ah, yes they were totally building robot death dogs and super aids in that steel mill for the sake of the adrenochrome-drinking liberals in Washington. More at 5 on Russia today.

I miss when 'propaganda' was just when a British person took a good look at something.

 

[dream1ng]

Speaking of that, did the following really not get brought up or did I just miss it?

In response to being asked directly about FFVII not being released on a Nintendo console, Sakurai said:

"A number of people fixate on the fact his original game was never released on a Nintendo console, but if we were to limit our choices to characters who appeared on a Nintendo console, we’d end up with Bartz from FFV or the Onion Knight from FFIII—how would that work?"

but then also

"I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though."

link to full article:

Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 2

Sakurai discusses all seven of the DLC characters in Smash for Wii U/3DS.

sourcegaming.info

--

There's a lot of ways to interpret that, and that's only part of what he said. To be honest I simply disagree with some things Sakurai says in this article but that's just me.

People have and will argue interpretations for either side of this, but in the end it's too ambiguous to be conclusive.

People don't like leaving things as a question mark, so they come down on if a character definitively needs to have made a Nintendo appearance, when, honestly, the best answer we have, given statements like this... is maybe.

And then even if an appearance is a necessity, it raises the further question of whether skins are sufficient appearance, because if we did get a character who hadn't made a true appearance but had shown up as a skin, many wouldn't see it as demonstrably putting an end to this question.