Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Perkilator]

Happy 400 pages of lots of rambling, guys...!
...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

People have and will argue interpretations for either side of this, but in the end it's too ambiguous to be conclusive.

People don't like leaving things as a question mark, so they come down on if a character definitively needs to have made a Nintendo appearance, when, honestly, the best answer we have, given statements like this... is maybe.

And then even if an appearance is a necessity, it raises the further question of whether skins are sufficient appearance, because if we did get a character who hadn't made a true appearance but had shown up as a skin, many wouldn't see it as demonstrably putting an end to this question.

It's exactly why I say his Cloud statement is nothing more than a "maybe". He even uses the word "might". He never tried to make a declarative statement even by that point.

Now, if Cloud wasn't in that one tiny spin-off game(a very minor game at that) and still got in, or didn't get in cause of that, we'd have a real answer.

But yeah, whether skins count or not is questionable true. I doubt it is, cause they're just cameos and his words were "appearances", not "has a game on it". So it fits exactly what he said in the first place.

Master Chief's a unique position because besides having a Nintendo appearance, there's also even more Microsoft characters than before in the running. At worst, him lacking a Spirit is weird, but that could be another case often don't think of; Smash is still a big game. It is possible they want Halo to appear as a playable pack, not a smaller version due to the point behind the game(gaming all-stars(and Zoidberg) fighting). Not every single company will view it this way either. There was actually similar thoughts that Sora would not get in outside of playable. Was the concept right? Who knows. It was lucky Sora got in anyway since Sakurai talked to Disney at just the right time for it be plausible. It didn't sound like he went out of his way to meet them. So it's impossible to say what could've happened. We also have zero Disney costumes, so it at most implies that Sora was playable or nothing(not confirmed, but a fair assessment).

 

[Aligo]

It's exactly why I say his Cloud statement is nothing more than a "maybe". He even uses the word "might". He never tried to make a declarative statement even by that point.

Now, if Cloud wasn't in that one tiny spin-off game(a very minor game at that) and still got in, or didn't get in cause of that, we'd have a real answer.

But yeah, whether skins count or not is questionable true. I doubt it is, cause they're just cameos and his words were "appearances", not "has a game on it". So it fits exactly what he said in the first place.

Master Chief's a unique position because besides having a Nintendo appearance, there's also even more Microsoft characters than before in the running. At worst, him lacking a Spirit is weird, but that could be another case often don't think of; Smash is still a big game. It is possible they want Halo to appear as a playable pack, not a smaller version due to the point behind the game(gaming all-stars(and Zoidberg) fighting). Not every single company will view it this way either. There was actually similar thoughts that Sora would not get in outside of playable. Was the concept right? Who knows. It was lucky Sora got in anyway since Sakurai talked to Disney at just the right time for it be plausible. It didn't sound like he went out of his way to meet them. So it's impossible to say what could've happened. We also have zero Disney costumes, so it at most implies that Sora was playable or nothing(not confirmed, but a fair assessment).

To add to this, there was no amiibo announcement for Sora. That and the fact that fp2 has one extra character compared to the first, lends credence to the idea that Sora was added through a lucky twist of fate.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To add to this, there was no amiibo announcement for Sora. That and the fact that fp2 has one extra character compared to the first, lends credence to the idea that Sora was added through a lucky twist of fate.

Well, it'd also take longer to license said amiibo. Every third party amiibo has taken longer to get in for DLC in particular. They're also releasing in order, and not all of the amiibo are announced yet. So it's more of a time wait than anything right now. Cloud and Bayonetta are great examples of this.

I can't find the article where Sakurai talking about how he got Sora from SourceGaming at least.

I know he said all characters are going to get amiibo, but that was possibly also recorded well before Sora was licensed. So it's not impossible, but pretty unlikely, that he'd miss out.

 

[dream1ng]

It's exactly why I say his Cloud statement is nothing more than a "maybe". He even uses the word "might". He never tried to make a declarative statement even by that point.

Now, if Cloud wasn't in that one tiny spin-off game(a very minor game at that) and still got in, or didn't get in cause of that, we'd have a real answer.

But yeah, whether skins count or not is questionable true. I doubt it is, cause they're just cameos and his words were "appearances", not "has a game on it". So it fits exactly what he said in the first place.

Master Chief's a unique position because besides having a Nintendo appearance, there's also even more Microsoft characters than before in the running. At worst, him lacking a Spirit is weird, but that could be another case often don't think of; Smash is still a big game. It is possible they want Halo to appear as a playable pack, not a smaller version due to the point behind the game(gaming all-stars(and Zoidberg) fighting). Not every single company will view it this way either. There was actually similar thoughts that Sora would not get in outside of playable. Was the concept right? Who knows. It was lucky Sora got in anyway since Sakurai talked to Disney at just the right time for it be plausible. It didn't sound like he went out of his way to meet them. So it's impossible to say what could've happened. We also have zero Disney costumes, so it at most implies that Sora was playable or nothing(not confirmed, but a fair assessment).

Idk, I felt like the third-party spirit selection was pretty haphazard. I remember a lot of people expecting an Undertale spirit event (mostly because they were looking to Cuphead), but there didn't seem to be a ton of rhyme or reason to who got selected. Past the occasional promotional event.

I mean we got big stuff that had been part of the conversation like Resident Evil, but then we also got seemingly random stuff like Warframe and Sakuna. And then we didn't get a lot of somewhat expected stuff, like the aforementioned Undertale or TWEWY or SMTV.

I feel like it was a bit stranger to not get Chief as a costume... but even then it wasn't that strange. Especially after Banjo came with absolutely no other Rare content. It seems like with MS, they were just there for that specific IP, and that was it. Though were there to be any exception, Halo would've made sense. But who knows, it's all just guessing. Maybe it's as you say, maybe for Chief it was playable or nothing. Or maybe Nintendo just never even bothered asking.

But at the end of the day, the indefinite nature of the statement entails we can't take characters without appearances off the table. Not that any of them play big roles in speculation other than Chief.

This all would've been much simpler if those Halo ports had panned out, lol.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Idk, I felt like the third-party spirit selection was pretty haphazard. I remember a lot of people expecting an Undertale spirit event (mostly because they were looking to Cuphead), but there didn't seem to be a ton of rhyme or reason to who got selected. Past the occasional promotional event.

I mean we got big stuff that had been part of the conversation like Resident Evil, but then we also got seemingly random stuff like Warframe and Sakuna. And then we didn't get a lot of somewhat expected stuff, like the aforementioned Undertale or TWEWY or SMTV.

I feel like it was a bit stranger to not get Chief as a costume... but even then it wasn't that strange. Especially after Banjo came with absolutely no other Rare content. It seems like with MS, they were just there for that specific IP, and that was it. Though were there to be any exception, Halo would've made sense. But who knows, it's all just guessing. Maybe it's as you say, maybe for Chief it was playable or nothing. Or maybe Nintendo just never even bothered asking.

But at the end of the day, the indefinite nature of the statement entails we can't take characters without appearances off the table. Not that any of them play big roles in speculation other than Chief.

This all would've been much simpler if those Halo ports had panned out, lol.

Do you mean the DS Halo games or the MCC?

And yeah, it was more the lack of any Halo content in general that felt weird.

At least for BK, which Microsoft was barely using, they probably didn't want to give other Microsoft stuff since it wouldn't relate to its own franchise. We also don't know the details behind the Mii costumes either. Minecraft meanwhile got a fair amount, but it's also a much bigger deal than BK is(one is a much bigger gaming icon, despite less games). Other things could be that Sakurai didn't really want to get other Rareware characters, possibly cause he didn't want to talk about "go play their games on Microsoft" too, which is a lot more than one single game. There has to be a limit when advertising your rival, after all. Can apply the same way to how Nintendo feels. This is the main reason then, Halo, a top competitor franchise, is a little harder to justify advertising in itself, and Smash is a unique game that sells on its characters, so those particular appearances gather a massive amount of attention... not necessarily to Nintendo. So forget Sakurai, Nintendo probably wouldn't be up for that alone.

True on the Third Party Spirits being all over the place. My guess is they planned things out very early on, which is why the spirit events were done fairly fast and not as often as you'd expect. Most of them were repeats of previous spirits instead of new ones. It is possible Nintendo wanted way more, but licensing isn't easy. XD

Regardless, who knows when we'll get another game. At least Chief is back on the table for playable again~

 

[HyperSomari64]

they are already putting machine guns on those robo-dogs BTW

'This needs to be illegal as of yesterday': Video of robo dog with machine gun terrifies internet

A robot dog featuring in the video looks quite similar to the one which was once promoted by Boston Dynamics.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

That video wasn't filmed in Ukraine.

 

[MasterCheef]

Other things could be that Sakurai didn't really want to get other Rareware characters

can anyone please explain to me the obsession y'all with stating whether or not Sakurai wanted a character or not ?
As far as we know the President of Nintendo approves all characters in Smash. so it is fundamentally up to the President of Nintendo.
Please provide any evidence which i may have missed.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Street Fighter is still rife with selections if Nintendo/Sakurai wants to go that way.

I’d say if we did get a second Street Fighter unique rep, Chun Li would be the pick. She’s probably one of the most iconic female characters in gaming that isn’t in Smash yet. Only one I can argue might be more iconic is maybe Lara Croft. Even people who don’t know Jack about SF know who Chun Li is.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

can anyone please explain to me the obsession y'all with stating whether or not Sakurai wanted a character or not ?
As far as we know the President of Nintendo approves all characters in Smash. so it is fundamentally up to the President of Nintendo.
Please provide any evidence which i may have missed.

"Sakurai selected Piranha Plant because a game full of protagonists and major players isn’t terribly interesting. A lineup full of plain-old heroes is boring. Just like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, Piranha Plant brings something special and unique to the roster. He anticipates Piranha Plant to be a rather unconventional fighter."

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

And for another example;

"Sakurai: I’ll give you an example– Chrom. When I decided who to have as a representative from “Fire Emblem: Awakening,” I had thought up a moveset from Chrom, but no matter what he just ended up as this mix between Ike and Marth, and he didn’t come together very well. But when I thought of the “sword and sorcery/magic” concept with Robin, the character’s individuality showed very well."

“Are The Characters Dancing?” Sakurai’s Famitsu column vol. 430– on Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman, Villager, and a little Chrom

Note: Do not repost the full translation. Please use the first two paragraphs and link to this translation. For additional information, please read this post. Think About the Video Games, vol. 430,…

sourcegaming.info

You'll notice almost every single character is like this too if you take a short look. Yes, Sakurai chooses tons of characters.

The context was talking about Mii costumes, anyway. We know Sakurai has chosen characters before. We know nothing about most Mii costumes. Very few ever get cited, though he did specify he wanted Geno, which is what led to that costume.

Likewise, that's a massive claim you're making too. Could you source that?

 

[Perkilator]

As far as third parties go, other than sonic because that would be obvious, which franchise in smash has the most potential for a new rep?

If KH got a second rep, Aqua would be my pick.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Happy 400 pages of lots of rambling, guys...!
...

I'll drink to that

 

[PeridotGX]

,

Since base models were mentioned, I've been thinking, which base models do people think would be used for certain characters?

Like, for Hayabusa, maybe Marth would be used for him?
Billy and Jimmy Lee would obviously have Ryu.

Grovyle - this is a tricky one, nobody else on the roster really moves like Grovyle. I'm thinking maybe Greninja or Ridley, because they're fast and vaguely lizardlike

Maxwell (Scribblenauts) - Another tricky one. It's tempting to say Mr. Game and Watch, but the only thing they would really share is the 2-D flattening which can be done in post or something. I think Mega Man is the best option, because he has simmilar proportions and plenty of props.

Bandana Dee - Substantially easier, I think Meta Knight is the fairly obvious choice. Maybe Jigglypuff if we want a more "bouncy" base.

Frisk: Unironically I feel like Ness is the best fit. While Undertale's... austere graphics leave much to interpretation, I think that taking guidance from the games that directly influenced it is a good idea . If they decide to go with Kris, who is notably taller, I think Mii Swordfighter is the way to go.

Kamek: This is definitely out there, but I think Hero is the best option. He's not too tall, has plenty of props that could be repurposed, and a weapon. Other potential options are Young/Toon Link, Zelda, and Villager, but no matter who they choose Kamek would deviate heavily.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Happy 400 pages of lots of rambling, guys...!
...

I was gonna mention something that got spoiled about Sonic Frontiers that I thought was cool, but that would've been off-topic, so I let you guys ramble instead.

That being said, I think I might know who I want as another Sonic rep...

 

[dream1ng]

Do you mean the DS Halo games or the MCC?

Yeah I meant the more recent claims of MCC/early Halo games coming to Switch, but I suppose either would've solved the problem. Though I imagine the trajectory of Master Chief for Smash requests would've looked fairly different if a Halo game had reached Nintendo all the way back in the DS days.

That probably would've got the snowball going much earlier given Chief in Smash only stopped becoming a joke during the Ultimate era.

And yeah, it was more the lack of any Halo content in general that felt weird.

It feels a bit conspicuous, but personally I don't find it that weird when you factor in where the game is coming from and that... Smash is just always going to have glaring omissions. I find the lack of Ryu Hayabusa and Phoenix Wright featured in even minor content conspicuous as well.

Maybe it stems from me not being convinced a character is going to show up until they actually do. At best I only ever think a character has a pretty good chance, but especially a third-party not showing up doesn't really spin me around or anything. It's always a tenuous situation with so many moving parts.

At least for BK, which Microsoft was barely using, they probably didn't want to give other Microsoft stuff since it wouldn't relate to its own franchise.

Again a guess, but I think it's likelier it comes down to money. The utility of other Rare stuff might not be worth to Nintendo what MS wanted for it. If Nintendo were prepared to pay the right price, I don't think anyone would've stood in the way on the grounds on not wanting to muddy the focus on Banjo.

As it was, the costumes that accompanied him didn't even have any relation whatsoever, and a lot of the focus ended up getting shifted to Sans.

We also don't know the details behind the Mii costumes either. Minecraft meanwhile got a fair amount, but it's also a much bigger deal than BK is(one is a much bigger gaming icon, despite less games).

They might've paid more for Steve, or they might've felt paying for additional costumes was a better investment considering Minecraft content is probably going to sell quite well. Again, like you said, we don't know the details.

Other things could be that Sakurai didn't really want to get other Rareware characters, possibly cause he didn't want to talk about "go play their games on Microsoft" too, which is a lot more than one single game.

Sakurai seems like the kind of guy who would encourage you to go play any game, frankly. He seems to have a pretty universal appreciation for good games, and Rare has a bunch. I suspect were it up to Sakurai, he'd try to bring in as many IP as he could, it's just logistics like price and time and the labor of negotiation which results in being selective.

There has to be a limit when advertising your rival, after all. Can apply the same way to how Nintendo feels. This is the main reason then, Halo, a top competitor franchise, is a little harder to justify advertising in itself, and Smash is a unique game that sells on its characters, so those particular appearances gather a massive amount of attention... not necessarily to Nintendo. So forget Sakurai, Nintendo probably wouldn't be up for that alone.

Frankly Microsoft is making a much bigger concession in giving these characters than Nintendo, who requires people buy their system and the game and the DLC to even use them. Obviously MS is being compensated, but the exposure of Smash seems a pretty fair return on a deal that heavily benefits Nintendo. Of course I'm not Nintendo, but after including two MS characters and a bunch of other third-parties who primarily flourish on other systems, cutting it off at the few more costumes or one more character from an existing partner seems a weird place to draw a line in the sand.

Sakurai also doesn't have to say "go play x" when it comes to costumes. He usually just briefly touches on the character... but even then not always.

True on the Third Party Spirits being all over the place. My guess is they planned things out very early on, which is why the spirit events were done fairly fast and not as often as you'd expect. Most of them were repeats of previous spirits instead of new ones. It is possible Nintendo wanted way more, but licensing isn't easy. XD

I also wonder if covid hindered how many third-party spirit events were going to happen. They were going at a pretty frequent clip and then suddenly became much more sparse during the pandemic. And we know Nintendo likes to do these deals in person.

Who knows. Maybe it was just a coincidence. It probably varied how far in advance some of the events were planned out.

Regardless, who knows when we'll get another game. At least Chief is back on the table for playable again~

I imagine from here on out he's going to remain right among the top of the third-party requests (in the west). Which makes sense, he is arguably the biggest of what's left. Not necessarily in terms of raw sales, but in recognizability, being the face of one of the big three and the general impact of Halo.

 

[MasterCheef]

You'll notice almost every single character is like this too if you take a short look. Yes, Sakurai chooses tons of characters.

The context was talking about Mii costumes, anyway. We know Sakurai has chosen characters before. We know nothing about most Mii costumes. Very few ever get cited, though he did specify he wanted Geno, which is what led to that costume.

Likewise, that's a massive claim you're making too. Could you source that?

From _ Masahiro Sakurai _ himself

2018 image of tweet = https://www.eventhubs.com/imagegall...kurai-discusses-smash-ultimates-dlc-roster/1/

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's DLC roster choices have already been finalized says Masahiro Sakurai; no ballot or fan vote coming

& _ 2020 ___ https://www.siliconera.com/masahiro...snt-choose-the-fighters-for-super-smash-bros/

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

From _ Masahiro Sakurai _ himself

2018 image of tweet = https://www.eventhubs.com/imagegall...kurai-discusses-smash-ultimates-dlc-roster/1/

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's DLC roster choices have already been finalized says Masahiro Sakurai; no ballot or fan vote coming

& _ 2020 ___ https://www.siliconera.com/masahiro...snt-choose-the-fighters-for-super-smash-bros/

Well, the part you quoted was about Mii costumes only. My stuff might've been a bit vague in context, so I'll re-clarify.

• Sakurai has chosen most characters. Except the Fighter's Pass characters. And maybe Corrin and Bayonette in particular(the information is a bit vague on those).
• Mii Costumes are unknown entirely outside of Geno being chosen by Sakurai. The most we have gotten is thoughts on them, but not who decides them necessarily. Might also apply to Lloyd Irving.
• Fighter's Pass Characters(all 12 characters, among 11 slots. This is counting Banjo & Kazooie as well as Steve/Alex as one, but Pyra and Mythra as two fullblown characters) are chosen by Nintendo(whether or not they were suggested by someone else, they first talked to Sakurai about each choice).

We simply talked around each other. Sorry about that.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Speaking of that, did the following really not get brought up or did I just miss it?

In response to being asked directly about FFVII not being released on a Nintendo console, Sakurai said:

"A number of people fixate on the fact his original game was never released on a Nintendo console, but if we were to limit our choices to characters who appeared on a Nintendo console, we’d end up with Bartz from FFV or the Onion Knight from FFIII—how would that work?"

but then also

"I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though."

link to full article:

Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 2

Sakurai discusses all seven of the DLC characters in Smash for Wii U/3DS.

sourcegaming.info

--

There's a lot of ways to interpret that, and that's only part of what he said. To be honest I simply disagree with some things Sakurai says in this article but that's just me.

In the first quote, he was talking about a character's original game appearance and in the second one, he was talking about any appearance at all.

Like I said before, it's clear that a character appearing on a Nintendo console is important to him enough for him to bring it up. Otherwise, he would have made it clear that it didn't matter.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to say skins or textures (like the ones for Halo in Minecraft) count as appearances, as even his own series makes a distinction between a character and a Mii costume.

 

[SPEN18]

In the first quote, he was talking about a character's original game appearance and in the second one, he was talking about any appearance at all.

Like I said before, it's clear that a character appearing on a Nintendo console is important to him enough for him to bring it up. Otherwise, he would have made it clear that it didn't matter.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to say skins or textures (like the ones for Halo in Minecraft) count as appearances, as even his own series makes a distinction between a character and Mii costume.

He was directly prompted about it so it's not like he was bringing it up on his own. But I see what you're saying in that he didn't have to bring up that last bit about Cloud appearing on a Ninty console "in some form" if he didn't want to.

And yeah this article doesn't address anything regarding what "counts" as an appearance, other than saying that whatever Cloud had was apparently enough at least in his particular context. Who knows, maybe the eligibility bar would even be higher for a character less popular than Cloud.

And, hm, an interesting ripple that I didn't catch before in that the question and at least part of the answer are addressing FFVII specifically not being on a Nintendo console, not Cloud himself. It doesn't help that he made the joke about the other FF characters, which some fans probably didn't take too well.

Ugh, it would've been nice if Sakurai could've been more clear on this (though it's probably to his advantage to be purposefully vague). Lots of angles to be taken to it. Here's to another seven years of talking about it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's try a quick questionnaire. I want to try and make these regular things with smaller franchises. So since ARMS was a topic earlier, let's continue that discussion. These questions will be about the franchise as a whole and Smash representation.


1. Do you think ARMS will get a sequel? Why or why not?
2. If yes, when do you expect it? If not, when do you think that will be obvious?
3. Approximately how successful do you think a hypothetical ARMS sequel would be?
4. At what point would you say ARMS has earned a second representative?
5. Assuming Min Min stays in Smash, who would you choose as a second representative (you can't say none)?
6. Do you think ARMS will cross over into other Nintendo games through cameos? How would thise work?

 

[dream1ng]

You can talk about the necessity of a Nintendo appearance from a theoretical perspective, but from a practical perspective who does it box out?

Sony characters, Valve characters (Portal aside), and maybe Chief. Basically everyone else has made a Nintendo appearance. LoL:WR is coming to Switch eventually, so by the next Smash it won't be an issue.

And let's be real, Sony and Valve characters don't look auspicious anyway. Sony and Nintendo likely won't cooperate, and Valve... well... like EA or Embracer or Take-Two, I don't think they're going to be a priority for Nintendo. No one is really clamoring for any of those characters, and the Japanese presence is much less than the west.

So... it's Chief. And even he may not be fully hindered by virtue of skins, if they're being liberal with their parameters. There's enough shadow of a doubt that Chief certainly isn't going to disappear from conversation or eventual (perhaps ill-fated) anticipation.

So talking about the concept may be interesting, but there's not this deep pool of likely candidates that it barricades.

Let's try a quick questionnaire. I want to try and make these regular things with smaller franchises. So since ARMS was a topic earlier, let's continue that discussion. These questions will be about the franchise as a whole and Smash representation.


1. Do you think ARMS will get a sequel? Why or why not?
2. If yes, when do you expect it? If not, when do you think that will be obvious?
3. Approximately how successful do you think a hypothetical ARMS sequel would be?
4. At what point would you say ARMS has earned a second representative?
5. Assuming Min Min stays in Smash, who would you choose as a second representative (you can't say none)?
6. Do you think ARMS will cross over into other Nintendo games through cameos? How would thise work?

1. Yeah. It was a success and I think if Nintendo didn't see a future for it they wouldn't have pushed for a Smash inclusion three years after the fact
2. Next system
3. Honestly, unless it's positioned in a very advantageous timing window, not as successful as the first
4. Unless the next game just totally bombs, then. Though 'earn' is a tricky word, like 'deserve'. I would just say at that point it 'makes sense'.
5. Well I would choose Helix, because I like Helix. I would be fine with Spring Man though. Despite what they said, I do think he's more the lead than the others. Twintelle will be treated as the next most popular... when in reality it's probably Ninjara. So either of them is fine too.
6. I could see some billboard in a future Mario Kart using ARMS stuff, since it's the same team. And I suppose if there's ever a new Punch-Out that may be a good place for a cameo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let's try a quick questionnaire. I want to try and make these regular things with smaller franchises. So since ARMS was a topic earlier, let's continue that discussion. These questions will be about the franchise as a whole and Smash representation.


1. Do you think ARMS will get a sequel? Why or why not?
2. If yes, when do you expect it? If not, when do you think that will be obvious?
3. Approximately how successful do you think a hypothetical ARMS sequel would be?
4. At what point would you say ARMS has earned a second representative?
5. Assuming Min Min stays in Smash, who would you choose as a second representative (you can't say none)?
6. Do you think ARMS will cross over into other Nintendo games through cameos? How would thise work?

1. I'm skeptical. It's not as successful as was hoped, but we also lack any real details on what they wanted. It may have been.
2. More characters, maybe guests, some new gameplay changes(could be even due to new control options from the system itself. In the sense of how GBA added shoulder buttons).
3. I'd say moderately, as it has a great cast. But if they can't give a strong amount of content, not enough are willing to pay the price. IMO, the price is not bad by any means, but eh.
4. Honestly? Already did by existing as a game with multiple characters. I don't believe much is needed in the end. If a character is plausible, and of course you have enough time, sure why not. Nothing unlike what I said before.
5. Well, I can't see her outright leaving(but I can see her still being a pain to make and balance alone due to her unique nature, especially with new characters). I'd choose Spring Man with a Ribbon Girl echo to get the actual mascots in. That way you have a really cool set of characters. If only one, I'd go with Twintelle due to having a very unique style of gameplay, using her hair instead.
6. This one's harder. Mario Kart, sure, but who would you choose? Sure, you could throw in a few due to having near identical bodyshapes, but that's kind of silly. Mechanica however could be really fun otherwise due to having her in a modified Kart, maybe even showing off her non-armored design more. Not sure where else they'd easily fit in. Maybe a few faces in other racing or fighting games as a poster or something? Kind of depends on what kind of games would often do that beyond Mario Kart these days. Maybe the next Sonic Racing game could do that? Not the first time a Sonic game has a cameo poster of a character.

 

[fogbadge]

Spoiler: some stuff

long lived doesn't mean forever, and it must have been a really long time since the last games, like hundreds of years and no high enita has lived that long without any signs of aging. Supply point still stands, scavenging would not sustain any kind of conflict for a long period and no manufacturing plants exist in the world. Speak ing of the world, it pretty empty for a xenoblade game. The music is a big let down too. Combat becomes a flowchart once you find the chain attack button and the oroborous forms are pretty useless. Speaking of which, how do those even work, they kind of go against the whole merge into oblivion thing they had going on. Even sonic 06 had a better plot than this. The game lies somewhere between gross incompetence and deliberate malpractice

Spoiler

i don't think they ever gave a time frame for how long high entia live so there was big blank to fill in. if you're scavenging the resources of two whole worlds and have access to a machine constructed from the recreation of those two worlds you can probably have as many supplies as you want

It bears repeating that talking down to people is a good way to make them ignore you instead. Just be respectful. If you can't be, then you shouldn't be replying. You don't need to prove a point. That's not important. Conversation here is meant to be kind and respectful and done in good faith. Good faith requires more than saying information that's correct. It requires you to meet a person somewhere in the middle for understanding. It requires to respect a person. It requires you to also put effort into any debate("because I said so" is not a legitimate argument, and that should be obvious to everyone that it's as effective as screaming at the top of your lungs. In other words, they can and will not listen either way. Nor should they) point so a person at least knows what you mean.

Right now, this is starting to lose the focus on good faith discussion and is becoming overly heated for quite literally no legitimate reason(Okay, that's not fair. Being heated is never justified in any way. If you can't talk respectfully, stop posting and take a breather).

For the record, yes, I am reporting these posts and have no qualms making that clear here. Please show better maturity than trying to step on other people to make your points. It doesn't work. We're all mature enough to be more careful about how we write. If you don't believe me, I've rewritten things over 20 times just to make sure it sounds way better, including after posting it, realizing it sounded worse than imagined. It's always better to keep yourself in check, and not expect others to do so for you. We're better than that. A lot better than that.

i was just answering some questions to help explain a story someone clearly didn't understand. since when was that arguing

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something interesting I had looked at related to Sakurai's quote about Cloud. His only appearance on a system is a spin-off where no character was necessarily important, but more of note, came out in April 2014 in Japan. Now, he was released December 2015. Remember when I said he might've been closer to a year and a half to be both made and with licensing in mind?

Well, that kind of shows that the timeline points to Cloud being thought of either when the game was near release or not long after. His wording basically says "he had appeared in a game on a Nintendo system" essentially, so it points to right after the game was out at bare minimum. Coupled with such little content, it's unlikely he would've been in talks for a majorly long time. And then you have the basic 6 months requirement for a more unique fighter with him.

But yeah, the context of said quote really seems to be he luckily was in a game and just the right time, so he didn't really need to worry about any kind of guideline related to that. Being, as noted before, he didn't come out to say it but replied to a question, it might not have been much of a factor either way.

Obviously it doesn't matter anymore, cause every plausible character has appeared on Nintendo in some way, cameo or otherwise, so by process of elimination, the unclear guideline(which is more "it'd be nice" at best) just happens to work out that every character, even if it really has no bearing on one's inclusion(Joker is pretty much not there because of said spin-off, something that's very minor and not that important at all) in itself all the time. Sonic's the most fun case, cause we don't know what would've happened. The most would be Sonic would be helped use to advertise the latest port of his series' game to the GameCube, much like Roy. Does that mean they'd have delayed Sonic Adventure 2: Battle? Nope. Cause that's done independently. If it were to have a delayed run, it'd be more for things like included crossover references, but yeah, SA2B would just have arrived first at that point. Unlike Snake, Sonic wasn't simply dismissed, but given heavy consideration. Besides, they couldn't delay the GameCube's launch either. SA2B was more delayable in that case, but they basically had no way to make Sonic fast enough as is(ironic) in that situation. Too bad the GCN wasn't capable of proper DLC, cause that would've changed everything too. Hell, maybe we'd have gotten a second Sonic character by now(and not an Echo either, as that wasn't really till Ultimate that it was a thing. 4 might've swung that, though, but they were basing it upon characters who weren't massively different from their counterparts to create the concept. ...Which I guess to be fair, is another reason Dr. Mario was kept a normal clone essentially).

 

[Geno Boost]

Swamp Sensei idk if i should tell you this but i think i see some mistakes regarding the order of the smash fighters chronological order in your signature
is 1976 started as a gun toy
is behind as his debut was Rad Mobile arcade as in game keychain before his actual game released
is behind as his debut was Diddy Kong Racing before his actual game released
is behind as his debut was smash melee before his actual game released
is behind as her debut was in metroid prime where she was born in the secret ending of the game
are behind as Minecraft was released publicly earlier

Sandbag.

personally would prefer Bonus-kun from Galaxy Fight since he is a sandbag with an actual moveset

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I don't think it matters to Nintendo and Sakurai if Sakurai thinks another character from 1 game can give something unique.

And I don't think we are capable of deciding what deserves to be in or not when some of us still think the franchise with almost 20 games, with 3 games that have hit the 2-3 million copies mark and a mobile game that's reached 1 billion revenue, doesn't deserve 8 reps.

I mean, I don’t think Fire Emblem got 8 based off factors like “deservingness”. Heck, Corrin got in despite Sakurai thinking there were too many Fire Emblem characters. A similar thing happened with Byleth. Favourable circumstances is more why we got 8 to begin with than whether or not Fire Emblem “deserves” that number with ending up having timing on their side and being an Echo Fighter due to fan demand similar to.

 

[fogbadge]

I'll drink to that
View attachment 363266

he looks odd with legs

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Two things can be true simultaneously. Its absolutely correct that Fire Emblem is a franchise beloved in Japan with increasingly larger popularity in the West that's more than worthy of having many Smash characters... and that its number of fighter is also due to being somewhat easier to implement given their echo/semi clone status paired with an incentive to promote FE games that tend to come out with some frequency.

 

[Quillion]

Two things can be true simultaneously. Its absolutely correct that Fire Emblem is a franchise beloved in Japan with increasingly larger popularity in the West that's more than worthy of having many Smash characters... and that its number of fighter is also due to being somewhat easier to implement given their echo/semi clone status paired with an incentive to promote FE games that tend to come out with some frequency.

Makes me think which other franchises could have the same treatment of (reasonable) roster padding with clones or echoes.

All I can think of is Kirby given the prevalence of the Knight bosses, making them clones of Meta Knight.

 

[MasterCheef]

Well, the part you quoted was about Mii costumes only. My stuff might've been a bit vague in context, so I'll re-clarify.

• Sakurai has chosen most characters. Except the Fighter's Pass characters. And maybe Corrin and Bayonette in particular(the information is a bit vague on those).
• Mii Costumes are unknown entirely outside of Geno being chosen by Sakurai. The most we have gotten is thoughts on them, but not who decides them necessarily. Might also apply to Lloyd Irving.
• Fighter's Pass Characters(all 12 characters, among 11 slots. This is counting Banjo & Kazooie as well as Steve/Alex as one, but Pyra and Mythra as two fullblown characters) are chosen by Nintendo(whether or not they were suggested by someone else, they first talked to Sakurai about each choice).

We simply talked around each other. Sorry about that.

right he may have chosen characters for the base game. However NINTENDO _ AKA _ SHUNTARO FURUKAWA _ MADE the list for the DLC characters
Since this speculation is largely about 3rd party reps , i would suggest largely thinking about which characters SHUNTARO FURUKAWA would be interested in allowing into Smash. Not too mention since Sakurai will largely be an assist role i don't expect him to have any big requests himself.

MOST IMPORTANTLY , Sakurai _ generally has had a habit of picking characters with an uninteresting play-style. _ PP _ KKR _ Belmonts _ LM _i could go on however you get the idea.

So when thinking about whether or not a character would be able to get in _ Shuntaro Furukawa _ or current Nintendo president _ should be thought of first.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Funnily enough various third parties could do semi-clones with ease; Old Snake and Big Boss for Solid Snake, numerous SF shoto clones of Ryu, different Belmonts for Simon/Richter, and other DQ protagonists for Hero.

 

[Geno Boost]

Funnily enough various third parties could do semi-clones with ease; Old Snake and Big Boss for Solid Snake, numerous SF shoto clones of Ryu, different Belmonts for Simon/Richter, and other DQ protagonists for Hero.

i kinda find it interesting i think are 3rd parties that all pretty much could get many clones
: can get , Pillager, Piglin as clones
: can all get multiple main character as clones
: can get Sean, Akuma, Dan and Sakura as clones

 

[silenthunder]

i kinda find it interesting i think are 3rd parties that all pretty much could get many clones
: can get , Pillager, Piglin as clones
: can all get multiple main character as clones
: can get Sean, Akuma, Dan and Sakura as clones

If they have a villager skin for Pillager, I'd have a new main. (Also I love Reinhardt from Castlevania 64 and Legacy of Darkness)

Speaking of potential new franchises:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Every Japanese streamer I ask (which is two) said they wanted 2b as the next smashes newcomer.

 

[ceterisparibus]

There's arguably a few characters that you'll probably either see a full blown character or bust. Sora, master chef, crash and/or an actual PS character falls under those categories - you don't go about asking for $1.99 costumes for terribly hard to get or console icons.
Hence why i'm not surprised why we didn't see those as miis.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Pokemon out here giving us a new Smash Run enemy:

Spoiler

 

[Lionfranky]

I think Yoko Taro will be fine with censoring 2B. Some people say he wouldn't allow her iconic appearance, but I feel he will forsake the design if it means 2B can join Smash.

 

[Sucumbio]

Hmm so is this next Pokemon game focused on ghost types or spooky realms or something? Just seems like lots of stuff in that regard lately Halloween aside

 

[HyperSomari64]

Why there's still no Pokémon Kart spin-off? It is because the executives of TPCi have some kind of trauma after seeing Digimon Racing on the GBA? Or maybe they have nightmares of Pikachu and other species riding Go-karts.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think its probably because Nintendo has greatly cut down on having first party series compete with each other in any real way. F-Zero and Diddy Kong Racing long gone, Fire Emblem becoming far more active than Advance Wars, and even experimental third person shooter/action attempts fading away after Splatoon took off. Platformers are the only exception, and even they end up occupying their own unique space on top of stuff like DKC releases becoming much less frequent.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

right he may have chosen characters for the base game. However NINTENDO _ AKA _ SHUNTARO FURUKAWA _ MADE the list for the DLC characters
Since this speculation is largely about 3rd party reps , i would suggest largely thinking about which characters SHUNTARO FURUKAWA would be interested in allowing into Smash. Not too mention since Sakurai will largely be an assist role i don't expect him to have any big requests himself.

MOST IMPORTANTLY , Sakurai _ generally has had a habit of picking characters with an uninteresting play-style. _ PP _ KKR _ Belmonts _ LM _i could go on however you get the idea.

So when thinking about whether or not a character would be able to get in _ Shuntaro Furukawa _ or current Nintendo president _ should be thought of first.

Uh, yeah, I'm not seeing how that's relevant to base game at all. Right now, we have no clue who could be the director, but the chances of it being Sakurai again are pretty high. He's the most trusted for a reason, and it isn't Iwata. It's due to tons of experience. Until shown otherwise, he's the most logical to use as a specific pillar to work with.

Nor do I "get the idea", because I don't know how the playstyles are uninteresting. I found both Belmonts and K. Rool very interesting, especially given I play the latter the most in Ultimate. I love the whip gameplay of the former, with a pretty good amount of representation(could've had a few more unique moves, sure), and K. Rool has a heavy style that gives me lots of freedom to attack from more than one angle, and a pretty good counter along with a nice recovery along with two cool projectiles.

Incidentally, I'm not sure what kind of emphasis you're trying to mean in your typing style with the underscores, so a lot of what you're typing I'm unable to understand. Apologies, but it's confusing me.