Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

I just had a thought. Remember Ayumi Tachibana from Famicom Detective Club? The girl who was considered for Melee? If she were to be in a Smash Bros. game like the next one, do you guys think some of her moveset could be something like this?

I mean, not exactly the same universe, but it is detective work after all.

I mean, with the focus on speech bubbles and dialogue as weapons, alongside the evidence and whatnot, I think this fits Phoenix Wright more, considering the Ace Attorney games having the big emphasis on the speech bubbles and dialogue and Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 had Phoenix Wright use them for attacks and whatnot.
---
That aside, I need to get the FDC games eventually to see if they can possibly do anything with Ayumi, considering compared to Phoenix Wright where the games have you solve around 5 cases, the FDC games only focus on one big case on their respective games, much like how most mystery book series had each book focus on one long case.

 

[Stratos]

Waluigi has not got his own video game, as for the baby version of what I saw on the internet there is only a toy and this was not a video game. Waluigi must acquire his own line of video games in order to have moves based on them and thus come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series.

 

[Chuderz]

Backwards compatibility doesn't mean an Ultimate port could be a replacement for a full new game. Just because GCN games ran on the Wii doesn't mean that rereleasing Melee with more characters would've been a good replacement for Brawl. Same with making an "updated" Brawl for the Wii U (ignoring the 3DS situation for the purpose of the point).

Ultimate DX can either be a minimal port or a true Smash 6. It has the potential to be a true sequel full of its own ideas on top of the additional content. I think your assumption is to consider it a minimal port and that's not what I'm rooting for. I'm rooting for an Ultimate DX that is given the budget or possibly even more of a budget than Ultimate was with Ultimate + DLC acting as the day 0 base. Imagine all the things you could add to it. There's even a plethora of missing Smash 4 and Brawl content that could easily be ported over.

Here's a post I did about my general feelings on the matter.

Spoiler: Just some of my Ultimate Reboot vs. DX port thoughts

I just don't see what scrapping all the work from Ultimate does for Smash. People claim some nebulous improvement but where?

Graphics? Can't that just be upscaled from Ultimate? We know for a fact that realistic-looking characters have to be brought closer to the colorful characters more than the other way around.

Gameplay? I don't see why an Ultimate DX couldn't potentially expand upon Smash's current gameplay with Sakurai talking about aerial smash attacks and with the likes of Terry adding a whole world of possibilities. If it's engine tweaking isn't that already been demonstrated as a possibility going from 4 to Ultimate? I'd love an even faster game than Ultimate you should check out the HDR mod if that's your speed.

Is the online? That's really a problem with Nintendo's pitiful online infrastructure as much as it's the game's netcode. Sakurai seems interested in rollback so I imagine it's going to be a focal point of Smash 6 whatever shape it takes. I don't understand how an Ultimate DX couldn't have rollback either but I'm open to being explained as to why it's impossible though I don't expect anybody with that sort of understanding to take their time explaining it to me just some guy on Smashboards that likes Smash too much.

Is it that old moveset reworks are exclusive to the idea of new entry started from scratch? There are quite a few solutions that could work within an Ultimate DX. There's the inheritance design philosophy where a character like Mario getting a massive overhaul would be complimented by Dr. Mario inheriting the classic Mario moveset. Similarly a character like Dr. Luigi could be created to serve this same purpose as could a completely separate character like Black Shadow inheriting Ganondorf's old moveset. Then there's the possibility of having the option to select the modern or classic moveset for the relevant characters at the character select screen with either a submenu before confirmation of the select or using a toggle (with a button currently not being utilized like X) similar to switching Pokemon for Pokemon Trainer or Pyra/Mythra and echoes if they're stacked.

I stand by the assertion that an Ultimate DX worked on like a true Smash 6 can do anything a Smash 6 started from scratch can and more because there are some things only an Ultimate DX can do like retaining EiH. I've never had it been explained why it's a better concept for a future entry other than it being more likely though that practically means nothing while Smash is in hibernation.

That misses the point. I think you're trying to poke at holes specific to the particular example that are irrelevant to the larger idea that simply continually updating the same game is unsustainable.

No mere "update" of a GCN game would have been a good idea for the Wii, even irrespective of the more casual-focused philosophy employed in the latter era.



A new game wouldn't mean "just a few additional pieces of content." It would mean a healthy mix of old and new contents.

IMO too many people are stuck in this mentality that a new Smash game is just "what we can add to the last one." No, a new game is its own being that is free to take similar or dissimilar design and roster decisions (relative to the decisions which shaped the last game) to the extents that it so likes.

IMO bringing back everything should never be a priority over making the best in-the-moment content decisions. Naturally, stuffs that had a strong legacy before are likely to have a strong legacy later and so a lot of old things should still be in that high priority bracket even after reevaluation years later. But old contents should be able to stand on their legacies alone rather than just get automatically grandfathered into the next game.

What makes it unsustainable for Smash 6 though specifically? Also you could technically turn Ultimate into a live service kind of thing while continuing the series outside of that I suppose but it'd be terrible business. On that point though it's actually not totally unsustainable because plenty of games do it so it'd just take the dedicated resources/investments and voila you now have Forever Ultimate I guess. I'm not saying Smash should do it but I am absolutely saying Smash 6 should definitely be built upon from Ultimate + DLC. The idea of building upon Ultimate's foundation for Smash 6 is not mutually inclusive with the idea of continuing Ultimate forever.

On the topic of the substance of a new game I agree but I also think Ultimate DX could very easily build upon Smash itself as well as introduce the additional content. The "moveset expansion ideas" in my sig is a testament to that. A lot of my suggestions derive from Terry's implementation into the game because he comes with a ton of great ideas for the future of game namely his Go! input moves, Back-Special and spotdoge attack. I posted a similar sentiment before I got banned from GameFAQs (seriously that place is a cesspit of bitter losers) and both times I proposed this idea people retorted that I was taking away too much from Terry and in doing so making him less special or something. I'm sorry (and I know I'm being overly general here because a couple of direct replies to my posts buried on game websites aren't indicative of the community at large) but which is then? Do you want the game to expand or not? Because here I am offering legitimately workable ideas on how to progress the game but because I'm deriving my inspiration from a specific character's implementation it's bad now? To me that adds credence to my idea because it's been proven to work in the game already. Other people also said it'd make the game too complicated. I imagine adding anything to the game at this point would be met with that sentiment no matter how unfounded and I consider supposed complicated-ness of Terry's Go! input moves becoming universal to be extremely unfounded. I believe in Smash players. They'd get used to inputting them in a matter of months. Additionally you could have also made that same argument to Sakurai in regards to all the stuff he added going from 64 to Melee. We simply don't because we're used to it and we like what he added to the game then.

It's just kind of mildly frustrating to discuss because it's like there's this assumption that Ultimate DX is inherently weak sauce minimal effort as a given assumption which is so not true and when I suggest ways to build upon Ultimate it's also still bad because reasons and not very great reasons at that if I'm being blunt about it.

I just don't understand what's so great about a reboot. Borderline EVERYTHING a reboot could do an Ultimate DX could do just as good if not better and there are some things ONLY an Ultimate DX can do like keeping all its content intact namely retaining Everyone is Here! Of the things a reboot could do better like graphical enhancements I think an Ultimate DX could do at worst like 50% as good. I don't think that bump in graphics is worth it in the end and anyways Smash is inherently not a graphically intensive game. The developers are already on record stating that the realistic characters need to be tooned down to fit in with the cartoony colorful characters. They also said the cartoony characters are somewhat made to be a little more "realistic" to help visually unify the cast but it's obvious that the burden is put on the realistic characters more so than the cartoony characters to make that happen.

Then they shouldn't call it "Ultimate DX" and should explicitly state that it's reusing assets from Ultimate to make a whole new game rather than it being an update.

It doesn't have to be called Ultimate DX. I use Ultimate DX as a shorthand because everybody basically knows what it means even if our interpretations of what it'd entail are different. They could go back to fight synonyms naming scheme like I posted about earlier. They could also combine the Japanese and Western names together into Super Smash Bros Ultimate Special.

The one I like best is either Super Smash Bros Ultra-Ultimate or more humorously Super Smash Bros Ultramate.

 

[Stratos]

If there is a Super Smash Bros. Ultimate DX, will the DLC characters that existed in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate no longer be DLC characters? If they all come I mean.

 

[Chuderz]

If there is a Super Smash Bros. Ultimate DX, will the DLC characters that existed in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate no longer be DLC characters? If they all come I mean.

Well I obviously can't say for certain since I'm just some guy that likes Smash too much but ideally yeah they'd be base game characters.

If not then I'd propose a double package set. I've proposed this idea before to people that say Ultimate DX wouldn't be viable in terms of generating a profit. Relaese 2 games instead of 1 similar to how 3DS and Wii U Smash 4 were two different games except these 2 Ultimate DX games are a part of the same overall game. A primary Ultimate DX and an expansion pack Ultimate DX. Either stick to the primary version exclusively if that's your thing or do what you know you want to and get that expansion pack to get the complete experience.

The first game is the primary game that you NEED to purchase no matter what. In fact I'd go as far to say that Nintendo would block your ability to purchase the expansion pack on the eshop until you'd already purchased the primary edition but even if they did let you exclusively buy the expansion pack itself it wouldn't work without the primary game.

The primary game is basically 60%-70% of the game's content with obviously the first/second party game including the majority of the newcomers and maybe even the third party cutesy mascot characters. Like 1 from each third party (minus Disney and SNK) so something like Sonic, Banjo, Pacman, Megaman, Moogle + Chocobo, Bomberman. Some of their other content like items, AT and stages would also come over but it'd be overwhelming first/second party content. It'd also have like 75% of the modes and 50% of the boss fights.

Then you have the expansion pack where all the third parties are hanging out and it ain't just the veteran third parties it's that and so much more. Old third parties and newcomer third parties alike with Zero, Simon/Richter, Alucard, Snake, Raiden, Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa, Barret, Knuckles, Tails, Steve/Alex, Sora, Riku, Terry, Bayonetta, Kazuya/Jin, Chosen Undead, Lloyd or some other Tales of protag, Ryu/Ken/Akuma, Chun-Li, Crash, Spyro, the Metal Slug Hero situation, Resident Evil Hero situation and you get the picture. It'd also come with some first-party deep cuts like Isaac, Ayumi, Takamaru, Mach Rider and Sukapon in order for Nintendo to help assist the third-parties in making it a substantial package which is would have to be in order to justify the full retail price.

A physical copy would exist but I think it'd only be the primary game because Nintendo would want to fight against the trade-in scene from devaluing the full package. Maybe at the end they could do a collector's complete edition or something with like a big bundle package of extra physical goodies like a poster and a developer diary or something along those lines in order to discourage trade among consumers.

The primary edition of the game would be compatible with this hypothetical game's inevitable DLC Fighters Pass(es) by itself without the need for purchasing the expansion pack.

Overall it'd basically end up being a $120 game or maybe even a $140 game by then for the complete package.

Quite daring I know but I think it'd be fine in terms of sales. If people were worried about the price then they'd have the option of simply buying the primary game until they could afford to purchase the expansion pack. It's not like it'd be going anywhere so there'd really be no reason to get upset. It'd be kind of like the expansion pack was an extremely substantial day-1 DLC or something to that effect.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

I mean, with the focus on speech bubbles and dialogue as weapons, alongside the evidence and whatnot, I think this fits Phoenix Wright more, considering the Ace Attorney games having the big emphasis on the speech bubbles and dialogue and Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 had Phoenix Wright use them for attacks and whatnot.

So sue me. It was just a thought. It might fit Phoenix more as you said though, now that I think about it.

 

[ahemtoday]

Ok after looking the vid I still mantain my opinion that it would be Dark Matter Swordman rather than just Dark Matter, particulary I feel the character is unnecesary creepy just because the Dark Matters has that reputation in the fandom

Haven't watched the video yet - I mean, based on the thumbnail, I definitely believe you when you say it's trying too hard to be creepy, so I doubt I'd be all that into the concepts it has.

That said, I've never really been fond of the concept of it being Dark Matter Blade. Just 'cause, like... why are we spotlighting its fake form? So we can give it traditional sword normals instead of unique ones? It just feels like going out of one's way to make its moveset less interesting.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Did anyone had heard of the SandBox version of Super Smash Flash 2?

 

[Quillion]

Haven't watched the video yet - I mean, based on the thumbnail, I definitely believe you when you say it's trying too hard to be creepy, so I doubt I'd be all that into the concepts it has.

That said, I've never really been fond of the concept of it being Dark Matter Blade. Just 'cause, like... why are we spotlighting its fake form? So we can give it traditional sword normals instead of unique ones? It just feels like going out of one's way to make its moveset less interesting.

Real Dark Matter isn't suited to being a playable character. Dark Matter Blade is.

You'll probably say that Real Dark Matter's constant floating and blob shape would make it more unique, but that's like having the Balance Board as the Wii Fit character over WFT.

 

[fogbadge]

Real Dark Matter isn't suited to being a playable character. Dark Matter Blade is.

You'll probably say that Real Dark Matter's constant floating and blob shape would make it more unique, but that's like having the Balance Board as the Wii Fit character over WFT.

bare in mind sakurai was open to the DQ slime being a character so being a limbless blob won’t rule it out

 

[Quillion]

bare in mind sakurai was open to the DQ slime being a character so being a limbless blob won’t rule it out

Yet Hero was chosen anyway.

 

[Ivander]

That said, I've never really been fond of the concept of it being Dark Matter Blade. Just 'cause, like... why are we spotlighting its fake form? So we can give it traditional sword normals instead of unique ones? It just feels like going out of one's way to make its moveset less interesting.

It's fake form can still use it's real form for attacking. When they brought Dark Matter back as a boss battle in Kirby Planet Robobot, Dark Matter not only uses the sword, but also it's real form for attacking. And some of those moves were previously used in Kirby's Dreamland 2 and 3.

If anything, Dark Matter using it's Swordmaster form gives it more moves to use and work with rather than limiting it, since it's real form is not restricted from being used.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Real Dark Matter isn't suited to being a playable character. Dark Matter Blade is.

You'll probably say that Real Dark Matter's constant floating and blob shape would make it more unique, but that's like having the Balance Board as the Wii Fit character over WFT.

Most importantly Dark Matter Swordman can also use the float and blob shape abilities without sacrificing anything else.

 

[ahemtoday]

Real Dark Matter isn't suited to being a playable character. Dark Matter Blade is.

You'll probably say that Real Dark Matter's constant floating and blob shape would make it more unique, but that's like having the Balance Board as the Wii Fit character over WFT.

I find the idea of a character's body shape affecting how "suitable" they are unconvincing, considering we have a quadruped and two characters with one "foot".

Regarding both the Balance Board and Slime: the thing about them is that they have alternatives that are more prominent within their series. Real Dark Matter is the more prominent alternative.

It's fake form can still use it's real form for attacking. When they brought Dark Matter back as a boss battle in Kirby Planet Robobot, Dark Matter not only uses the sword, but also it's real form for attacking. And some of those moves were previously used in Kirby's Dreamland 2 and 3.

If anything, Dark Matter using it's Swordmaster form gives it more moves to use and work with rather than limiting it, since it's real form is not restricted from being used.

Most importantly Dark Matter Swordman can also use the float and blob shape abilities without sacrificing anything else.

I see Real Dark Matter in only one place in that video, and it's a freeze frame immediately before it dies. It pulls its eye into its lower body, yeah, but that isn't it transforming into its real form - it's still got all the stuff on top.

While it can do stuff resembling Dark Matter's KDL2 appearance, one of the things that makes real Dark Matter appealing to me is the fact that you could also incorporate attacks from the many bosses related to it and attacks that recur throughout the series. I can't envision Dark Matter Blade pulling off Zero's red laser attack or Deadly Bound.

 

[Ivander]

I see Real Dark Matter in only one place in that video, and it's a freeze frame immediately before it dies. It pulls its eye into its lower body, yeah, but that isn't it transforming into its real form - it's still got all the stuff on top.

It's literally attacking using it's real form, by literally doing the same exact thing it's real form does. When it does the beam attacks, it uses it's eye, it's true form. When it uses the orange blobs, the orange blobs come off it like it does it's true form. If anything, it's swordmaster form is just it's true form wearing a suit of armor and wielding a weapon. Mario putting on a different outfit like a suit and tie or a construction worker outfit does not suddenly mean Mario is no longer in his true form.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

You can still use the bounce attack has a down B or something like that with Blade, he will just made dissapear the armor for a brief time.

 

[ahemtoday]

It's literally attacking using it's real form, by literally doing the same exact thing it's real form does. When it does the beam attacks, it uses it's eye, it's true form. When it uses the orange blobs, the orange blobs come off it like it does it's true form. If anything, it's swordmaster form is just it's true form wearing a suit of armor and wielding a weapon. Mario putting on a different outfit like a suit and tie or a construction worker outfit does not suddenly mean Mario is no longer in his true form.

I was never disputing that it was using attacks from its true form. I literally said it did stuff resembling Dark Matter's KLD2 appearance. ...Oh, hang on, I forgot to specify real Dark Matter, so that might be on me.

In any case, when you say it "transforms into its true form", I expect it to do this:

Y'know, have orbs on the back instead of the exuviae of its Blade form like this:

Even if that is transforming into its true form, it certainly doesn't have the same appeal to me. Dark Matter Blade might be able to pull off the cape, but I think it looks silly when it's like this.

You can still use the bounce attack has a down B or something like that with Blade, he will just made dissapear the armor for a brief time.

Surely if we could just have Dark Matter Blade turn straight into real Dark Matter - no cape, no nothin' - then real Dark Matter could just do it the other way around for any of Blade's moves worth using?

 

[Ivander]

I was never disputing that it was using attacks from its true form. I literally said it did stuff resembling Dark Matter's KLD2 appearance. ...Oh, hang on, I forgot to specify real Dark Matter, so that might be on me.

In any case, when you say it "transforms into its true form", I expect it to do this:

View attachment 353472

Y'know, have orbs on the back instead of the exuviae of its Blade form like this:

View attachment 353471

Even if that is transforming into its true form, it certainly doesn't have the same appeal to me. Dark Matter Blade might be able to pull off the cape, but I think it looks silly when it's like this.


Surely if we could just have Dark Matter Blade turn straight into real Dark Matter - no cape, no nothin' - then real Dark Matter could just do it the other way around for any of Blade's moves worth using?

I mean, capeless Dark Matter/Zero could work for the Final Smash.

But anyway, the orbs on the back do appear when it brings them out to attack while it's still in swordmaster form.

I don't see why that can't be added as a permanent feature for it's swordmaster look, including for gameplay sake.

 

[ahemtoday]

I mean, capeless Dark Matter/Zero could work for the Final Smash.

But anyway, the orbs on the back do appear when it brings them out to attack while it's still in swordmaster form.
View attachment 353473
I don't see why that can't be added as a permanent feature for it's swordmaster look, including for gameplay sake.

Oh, there they are.

In any case, my issue is less the orbs and more the cape clinging to the real form. Well, maybe it's specifically Dark Matter Blade's "hair" still being there. It's all that extra bulk on top; it just makes it look ungainly. It's fine for shooting energy out of the eye, but if you want real Dark Matter to go somewhere quick or do that orbs-from-behind-the-back thing from KDL2 (not, like, the orbs in general, specifically that angle), that cape just seems like it'd get in the way.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Personally "Real" Dark Matter works better has an assist trophy in any case.

 

[fogbadge]

Yet Hero was chosen anyway.

slime was the back up. point still stands

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then they shouldn't call it "Ultimate DX" and should explicitly state that it's reusing assets from Ultimate to make a whole new game rather than it being an update.

Which is basically what Ultimate did with Smash 4. I could see them doing it again, especially since Ultimate has great speed and balance, so using it's engine would be a huge bonus. It would be a total waste if they didn't recycle this engine honestly.

 

[RileyXY1]

Which is basically what Ultimate did with Smash 4. I could see them doing it again, especially since Ultimate has great speed and balance, so using it's engine would be a huge bonus. It would be a total waste if they didn't recycle this engine honestly.

It might not even be compatible with the next console, or it could be so outdated that it wouldn't be feasible to reuse it.

 

[Sucumbio]

It might not even be compatible with the next console, or it could be so outdated that it wouldn't be feasible to reuse it.

I tend to agree. I think the next engine will have online multiplayer as a focus and this will require a new engine. Assets, eh maybe they can reuse assets. And they can still create a new engine with the balance points they've discovered through each iteration and save some time. It's the newcomers who will prolly require the most work in that regard.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I mean, even reuse assets has a lot of work, especially when you aren't working in the same engine.

 

[Quillion]

Depending on how things go, I can see them at least reusing models, skins, animations, and particles such as projectiles. Given that an art style change is unnecessary, I don't see a MvC:I situation with returning characters ever happening with the next Smash.

 

[RileyXY1]

Depending on how things go, I can see them at least reusing models, skins, animations, and particles such as projectiles. Given that an art style change is unnecessary, I don't see a MvC:I situation with returning characters ever happening with the next Smash.

I think that eventually there will come a time where the devs would have to cut the roster down.

 

[Quillion]

I think that eventually there will come a time where the devs would have to cut the roster down.

I was more referring to how MvC:I blatantly reused models and animations from MvC3, which ended up looking ugly in the more "realistic" art style.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Yeah it's funny how since they removed the cell shading that apart of looks good it make it harder to see the weirdness in some models like the faces the same models looks like a huge downgrade in MVCI

 

[SPEN18]

I do still think it's pretty safe to say that the roster will be at least as big as base 4, barring some very unlikely scenarios like a massive genre shift.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Yeah I don't expect a massive cut too, but I find very likely that there it will be more newcomers and less returning characters.

 

[PeridotGX]

Real Dark Matter isn't suited to being a playable character. Dark Matter Blade is.

You'll probably say that Real Dark Matter's constant floating and blob shape would make it more unique, but that's like having the Balance Board as the Wii Fit character over WFT.

I don't know why Blob DM wouldn't work as a fighter. The one thing that might give me pause are items, which isn't even unsolvable - it's amorphous, it could just create a tendril to store it's items or something.

Ok after looking the vid I still mantain my opinion that it would be Dark Matter Swordman rather than just Dark Matter, particulary I feel the character is unnecesary creepy just because the Dark Matters has that reputation in the fandom

I do think the video might have gone a touch far when it comes to the body horror, but I think overall it's pretty fitting. Kirby antagonists are pretty infamous for being unexpectedly gruesome, and there's already precedent for Smash upping the creepy factor on antagonists. Melee and Brawl Bowser are far more edgy than he's ever been in the games (even ignoring Giga Bowser), Ridley is more intimidating than in any non-manga appearance of his, Kazuya in his trailer and Wario in SSE were far more violent than usual, and fellow Kirby antagonist Marx probably got the biggest "glow-up" from how he's usually depicted, despite not even being playable.

 

[SPEN18]

Ultimate DX can either be a minimal port or a true Smash 6. It has the potential to be a true sequel full of its own ideas on top of the additional content. I think your assumption is to consider it a minimal port and that's not what I'm rooting for. I'm rooting for an Ultimate DX that is given the budget or possibly even more of a budget than Ultimate was with Ultimate + DLC acting as the day 0 base. Imagine all the things you could add to it. There's even a plethora of missing Smash 4 and Brawl content that could easily be ported over.

I think again we just have some pretty strong differences in opinion on Ultimate itself. I had issues with the degree of focus on returning content for Ultimate, and prior to (fwiw, also after) the reveal of Ultimate I was of the opinion that it was too soon for another Smash, that they should wait longer and then after that just do a new groundup game per usual. In general I don't really want "Ultimate + DLC" as base, and I don't want old content, even ported old content, to be simply grandfathered in.

So while I do think that, in the scenario of a port, people's expectations should be set pretty low in terms of new contents, my objections to a port in general are not really based on that. There are just some characters, stages, modes, etc. that I am basically totally unattached to and would rather not have back even for relatively minimal effort.

What makes it unsustainable for Smash 6 though specifically?

Well my comment was speaking in greater generality than just Smash 6 in particular. However, even for Smash 6 the coming hardware update could potentially make it unsustainable, as could all the third party licensing and the plain human fact that playing the same game for too long is going to get stale for the general public.

I just don't understand what's so great about a reboot

Well I personally wouldn't really characterize any of the things I've advocated for as being a "reboot." I don't know if you were still directly responding to me, there, though.

Borderline EVERYTHING a reboot could do an Ultimate DX could do just as good if not better

I'd think the definition of a "reboot" would at least borderline dictate that it does something different that the previous iterations weren't doing and/or couldn't do?

graphical enhancements

No, I don't think graphical enhancements are an end of their own. But the game should be up to modern standards, whatever those might be whenever the next Smash is released. For the sake of its success in the market. As much as people wanted National Dex in Sword and Shield, I don't think, generally, that people wanted models ripped right from the 3DS in order to achieve it.

 

[Ivander]

Ok after looking the vid I still mantain my opinion that it would be Dark Matter Swordman rather than just Dark Matter, particulary I feel the character is unnecesary creepy just because the Dark Matters has that reputation in the fandom

I do think the video might have gone a touch far when it comes to the body horror, but I think overall it's pretty fitting. Kirby antagonists are pretty infamous for being unexpectedly gruesome, and there's already precedent for Smash upping the creepy factor on antagonists.

Dark Matter itself is quite tame in comparison to other Kirby villains when it comes to the Swordsman form and the Black Eye form. It's really Zero/Zero 2 who is the really gruesome part of Dark Matter and if you restrict Zero/Zero 2 to say, the Final Smash, where there doesn't need to be major changes nor have any destruction involved, Dark Matter itself could easily get in without worry.
I mean, Zero/Zero 2 with just their designs certainly can't be any more gruesome in comparison to Gomorrah, the demon in Bayonetta's Final Smash, who is much more detailed and is devouring the fighters. The only thing that would make Zero more concerning and gruesome than Gomorrah would be Zero's eye ripping out, which really isn't necessary to put in if you keep Zero to the Final Smash.

 

[Quillion]

SPEN18 , Chuderz : Why is it that both anti-reboot corporate sheep and pro-reboot hipsters are against the idea of recycling Ultimate's assets to bring back most/all of the cast while building on the core mechanics further. The black-or-white thinking of this debate is tiresome.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I would not have any problem to recycle assets, I just consider it rather unlikely due the possibility that the next console has a different engine to the Switch, if at the end the structure is the same then yeah, recycle all the things possible.

 

[Quillion]

I would not have any problem to recycle assets, I just consider it rather unlikely due the possibility that the next console has a different engine to the Switch, if at the end the structure is the same then yeah, recycle all the things possible.

Apparently Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate have very similar file structure. They can keep the structure while updating it for future games if this says anything.

 

[dream1ng]

SPEN18 , Chuderz : Why is it that both anti-reboot corporate sheep and pro-reboot hipsters are against the idea of recycling Ultimate's assets to bring back most/all of the cast while building on the core mechanics further. The black-or-white thinking of this debate is tiresome.

Probably because continually building off this game is specifically the kind of thing Sakurai said is very unlikely to happen. And some people see a deluxe port as not counting as a proper new title so it can eschew the untenable trajectory of perpetual growth between titles. So they're banking on it to delay from the eventual, inevitable new direction the series takes.

 

[Quillion]

Probably because continually building off this game is specifically the kind of thing Sakurai said is very unlikely to happen. And some people see a deluxe port as not counting as a proper new title so it can eschew the untenable trajectory of perpetual growth between titles. So they're banking on it to delay from the eventual, inevitable new direction the series takes.

They don't have to build off the underlying engine though, just make a new engine that can accept the models, aninations, and particles of Ultimate.

 

[Chuderz]

SPEN18 , Chuderz : Why is it that both anti-reboot corporate sheep and pro-reboot hipsters are against the idea of recycling Ultimate's assets to bring back most/all of the cast while building on the core mechanics further. The black-or-white thinking of this debate is tiresome.

We're just having a conversation. I have no ill will towards SPEN18 for having a different perspective on this and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it in depth with somebody passionate about the reboot model. I guess you're mostly joking around but calling me a sheep is pretty lame. I'm very much the polar opposite of a corporate sheep IRL so just throwing that out there.

I think again we just have some pretty strong differences in opinion on Ultimate itself. I had issues with the degree of focus on returning content for Ultimate, and prior to (fwiw, also after) the reveal of Ultimate I was of the opinion that it was too soon for another Smash, that they should wait longer and then after that just do a new groundup game per usual. In general I don't really want "Ultimate + DLC" as base, and I don't want old content, even ported old content, to be simply grandfathered in.

So while I do think that, in the scenario of a port, people's expectations should be set pretty low in terms of new contents, my objections to a port in general are not really based on that. There are just some characters, stages, modes, etc. that I am basically totally unattached to and would rather not have back even for relatively minimal effort.

Fair enough. I had a similar reaction to Ultimate's initial (Inkling trailer) announcement. That it was very soon and that it'd definitely reuse (port) over Smash 4 to a large extent.

We obviously disagree because I think if something substantial as a stage or character can take relatively less effort to incorporate into the game then it's inherently a worthwhile venture to pursue. I really like how close we got to everywhere is here being a thing and would love for that to happen someday. Another reason I'm an Ultimate DX advocate. Also there's plenty of content I have similar feelings towards (the feeling of unattachment) but I really appreciate that it's there anyways. I feel the reverse for seemingly unimportant or unpopular content being missing like black Yoshi and coin smash finding myself yearning for content I can't access because it doesn't exist in Ultimate.

I appreciate your perspective to extent that I can though.

Well my comment was speaking in greater generality than just Smash 6 in particular. However, even for Smash 6 the coming hardware update could potentially make it unsustainable, as could all the third party licensing and the plain human fact that playing the same game for too long is going to get stale for the general public.

I think it's possible to reappropriate the same content and make the game feel unique and fresh as contradictory as that may sound. There's a popular mod for Ultimate right now called HDR that essentially turns it into Ultimate with Melee characteristics. It feels remarkably different despite at its core being Ultimate. I think Sakurai could do this just like he did going from Smash 4 to Ultimate making a very distinctly faster game utilizing the core of Smash 4.

That's another wacky feature I'd absolutely adore. A legacy physics emulator. Play the game with any set of physics you want ranging from Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, Ultimate and of course Smash 6 whatever form it takes.

Well I personally wouldn't really characterize any of the things I've advocated for as being a "reboot." I don't know if you were still directly responding to me, there, though.

Fair enough. I use reboot as shorthand for advocates of a game built from the ground up and I guess I'm more generally appealing to the sentiment to argue against it than responding to you directly.

I'd think the definition of a "reboot" would at least borderline dictate that it does something different that the previous iterations weren't doing and/or couldn't do?

I guess it could include that but like my previous reply suggests I see reboot as simply an advocate for a game built from the ground up with borderline nothing from Ultimate being reappropriated into Smash 6.

I have no idea what that kind of hypothetical tech this would be other than maybe really utilizing the Z-axis more than Smash currently does but I think the amount Smash utilizes the Z-axis is adequate and quite frankly probably the perfect amount. So I don't know really. I'm more along the line of thought of expanding the movesets of all the characters using stuff already in the game. I have a post about it in my sig about moveset expansion ideas.

No, I don't think graphical enhancements are an end of their own. But the game should be up to modern standards, whatever those might be whenever the next Smash is released. For the sake of its success in the market. As much as people wanted National Dex in Sword and Shield, I don't think, generally, that people wanted models ripped right from the 3DS in order to achieve it.

Hmmmm. That's a question involving the Switch successor just as much if not more than Ultimate's successor itself so it's difficult to say one way or the other but I imagine that Ultimate DX is capable of any updates necessary to meet your standards. Ultimate's framerate is already pretty good and I imagine it'd be even better on more powerful hardware and I think its graphics could be improved/upscaled as much as was needed/possible to do.

I think it's being understated how much Smash's success on the market was a consequence of the game constantly getting bigger and bigger with each entry. It's not a tradition I see the fandom easily letting go of and that's even more especially pronounced after Ultimate with Everyone is Here giving the series its greatest success yet to the point it's the best-selling fighting game of all time.

On a sidenote I don't respect Gamefreak or their business practices/culture and I think they have waaaaaay more options to fulfill the national dex than porting over 3DS models but that specific issue (national dex) is the least of the franchise's problems. Oh well it's best to leave it at that though because that's an entire argument in and of itself and it's never going to change with the absurd success of the franchise with the core incentives of capitalism being present all the same.