Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

I would probably swap out Ridley for Raven Beak

Ah yes. Chasing a crush for fifteen years, winning them over, then dumping them immediately once someone newer and younger comes along, even though you know it won't last.

 

[Gengar84]

Both, I guess. They're certainly not likely, and I don't think... well... any are particularly realistic (maybe Medusa as an echo, but even then still probably not) but to each their own.

That's fair. I'll try to explain my reasoning for each of those characters. I already explained Magus, which admittedly probably isn't going to happen but he's just a personal favorite character of mine so it felt wrong not to include him.

Zoroark

Zoroark was pretty much the mascot of Black and White and was highly promoted in Legends Arceus. The Pokemon slot is very tricky and pretty much impossible to predict. Rather than go with "A gen 9 Pokemon", I wanted to go with a Pokemon that currently exists. Out of all current Pokemon, I feel Zoroark has a pretty good chance.

E.M.M.I.

I've been switching back and forth between E.M.M.I. and Raven Beak. I think both have very good reasons to be chosen as the next Metroid rep and I could see either getting in. I suspect Raven Beak is probably the more likely of the two here since it has an actual important role in the story and is the final boss. However, E.M.M.I. got a ton more promotion and I feel is generally more recognizable because of that. I also think it would be awesome moving around as E.M.M.I. being able to crawl up walls and ceilings. Sakurai would have to take creative liberties with either character as E.M.M.I. has very few attacks to work with and most of Raven Beak's are huge screen wide effects that would be difficult to implement as a Smash character.

Medusa

Medusa is mostly here due to the rumors of the Bandai-Namco remake of a Nintendo action game. A lot of people are speculating that this might be a Switch remake of Kid Icarus Uprising. If this is the case, I feel that it gives the character a renewed chance to make it into Smash. She could probably be a semi clone of Palutena, which would make things even easier. I've also always loved her design so she's partially here as a personal favorite.

Xehanort

Sora's position as the Smash Ballot winner shows that there is a ton of interest in the franchise. Cloud just got Sephiroth in Ultimate and Xehanort has been a huge part of the Kingdom Hearts franchise since the beginning. Part of my reasoning is that I just love the character but I think that the main antagonist of the series has a decent chance to be chosen as the second rep. The question is which version of the character we get. All three mainline versions have valid reasons to be chosen over the others. I decided to include them all as a transformation style character even if that might not be the most likely scenario.

The Battletoads

I believe that the Battletoads, Bill Rizer, and Ryu Hyabusa are the top three contenders when it comes to retro reps from the NES era. I've already gone over RARE's relationship with Nintendo several times and the importance Battletoads had in kickstarting RARE's success so I won't go into detail there. What I will say is that I don't think people are giving these guys enough credit for how perfectly their skillset translates into Smash. That is one major advantage the Toads have over Bill Rizer. Bill pretty much uses projectiles exclusively and a lot of people aren't fans of zoner heavy characters in Smash. The same can be said for two of the the top three requested Microsoft reps in Master Chief and Doom Slayer. There's also the fact that Master Chief has never appeared on a Nintendo console that I don't think people are taking into account.

Fulgore

I don't think people are giving enough credit to Killer Instinct when it comes to fighting game reps. The 2013 reboot is generally considered one of the best fighting games of all time and has sold over 13 million copies. That is a phenomenal achievement given the game's extremely limited budget. The original game was also a huge success and was closely related to Nintendo. There has been a huge public demand for a new Killer Instinct game in recent years, so much so that Phil Spencer had to come out and make a public statement acknowledging that he hears the fans. KI also doesn't have the same potential issues in Japan as Mortal Kombat as far as western fighting games are concerned. There are rumors of a new Killer Instinct game in development by Bandai-Namco, which certainly wouldn't hurt things.

Nemesis

This one is also a bit of a personal bias but not one without some logic behind it at least. I don't think there's much of a question that Resident Evil is a hugely popular franchise and it wouldn't be too surprising if we did get a character in Smash at some point. I think the logical choice that most people go to is one of the human characters like Chris, Jill or Leon. I'll admit that this is probably more likely but I think Nemesis would be a lot more interesting of a character. I personally think having a zombie as a playable representation of the series makes a ton of sense. He is also extremely unique looking and is moveset would be equally unique. Nemesis' main issue is his design might be a bit much for an E rated game so they would probably have to find a way to tone it down a bit.

 

[PeridotGX]

Zoroark

Zoroark was pretty much the mascot of Black and White and was highly promoted in Legends Arceus. The Pokemon slot is very tricky and pretty much impossible to predict. Rather than go with "A gen 9 Pokemon", I wanted to go with a Pokemon that currently exists. Out of all current Pokemon, I feel Zoroark has a pretty good chance.

I like Zoroark as a Pokemon, but I have no idea how it would work in Smash. It's central gimmick, illusion, just doesn't work in a fighting game context. There isn't another character on your side to turn into (aside from in Squad Strike), and even if you are disguised as another character it doesn't really matter. If in Pokemon, your Zoroark is disguised as a fighting type and you're fighting a psychic type, this is a huge advantage. If, in Smash, Zoroark looks like Roy it doesn't really matter, your opponent hits you, breaks the illusion, and thinks "oh, i guess i'm fighting a zoroark now".

If I had to choose a gen 5 Pokemon to add, my first choice would probably be Genesect. Hydreigon would be my second choice, and due to it's long history in the competitive scene I think Lando-T would be funny and also somewhat deserving.

 

[Oracle Link]

I... find myself unsure whether I should reply in that thread or this one. I suppose this one is where the conversation started, so here it is.

• Step 0: Reuse all the stuff from Ultimate. Okay. That's practical. I very much agree with the philosophy of "get cool things done by cheating like a bandit". ("Cheating" probably isn't the right word, but whatever.)
• Step 1: Smash Platforming, a new mode with single-player stages for each fighter built using the ingame stage builder that then have enemies and bosses put in them. Okay. Again, a practical way to execute this much content.
• Step 2: Even Specialer Smash where you can control bosses, assist trophies, and enemies (oh, and also set modifiers independently). Hm... I get where you're going with this one, and I do think it would be quite a fun mode to mess around with. However, enemies and bosses would have to be built around it, and that's a lot of work for a mode I fear will go the way of Stage Morph - unutilized by the majority of players. Though playing as bosses is a bit more of a draw, I admit. But ATs being playable in this mode also doesn't really alleviate that they'd still be "in jail": exclusive to this mode, unplayable in competitive and (more importantly) online. I mean, assuming it follows in the footsteps of the current Special Smash.
• Step 3: Customization. ...Yeah, you lost me. The thing about custom moves in Smash 4 for me is that when they were cool and unique new moves instead of slight tweaks... I actually liked them way, way less. It took me 'til Ultimate to actually play as Palutena without feeling like I was missing out on something, even with customs off. If that type of character design became widespread to the degree of this idea, I have to assume it would ruin the game for me. Turns out, I am thoroughly disinterested in deciding my character's loadout in a fighting game.

To be fair a lot of custom Moves Could still be tweaks for Example
Toon links Custom moves could reffrence Bomb Arrows, the Magical Boomerang etc
But the Main Reason For Custom Moves is That Characters Like Ganondorf or Link Can Get New Movesets But Keeping Their old ones! Im Sure there would be Presets for every Major Version

But do you know the Best thjing About the Perfect Smash (I maybe should change the Name) You can Discuss what you like and dislike and i think we will find a Way To make most people happy!

 

[osby]

I like Zoroark as a Pokemon, but I have no idea how it would work in Smash. It's central gimmick, illusion, just doesn't work in a fighting game context. There isn't another character on your side to turn into (aside from in Squad Strike), and even if you are disguised as another character it doesn't really matter. If in Pokemon, your Zoroark is disguised as a fighting type and you're fighting a psychic type, this is a huge advantage. If, in Smash, Zoroark looks like Roy it doesn't really matter, your opponent hits you, breaks the illusion, and thinks "oh, i guess i'm fighting a zoroark now".

Tbf, there are other ways to use illusions than just shapeshifting.

For example, Zoroark can use its illusions to temporarily hide from sight (like Piranha Plant's down special) and make a sneak attack. He can also send decoys or takeout projectiles like Guilty Gear's Bedman or KOF's Chizuru, requiring opponents to guess which attack should they guard against.

To be fair a lot of custom Moves Could still be tweaks for Example
Toon links Custom moves could reffrence Bomb Arrows, the Magical Boomerang etc
But the Main Reason For Custom Moves is That Characters Like Ganondorf or Link Can Get New Movesets But Keeping Their old ones! Im Sure there would be Presets for every Major Version

The thing is, characters' movesets are more than just their specials but still are built around them.

I liked custom moves in Smash 4 but giving each character 4-to-8 more specials, having them work with the rest of their moves, and also making sure they reference something is a ridiculously big task to overtake. I don't think it's really feasible for a roster reasonably large.

 

[Gengar84]

I like Zoroark as a Pokemon, but I have no idea how it would work in Smash. It's central gimmick, illusion, just doesn't work in a fighting game context. There isn't another character on your side to turn into (aside from in Squad Strike), and even if you are disguised as another character it doesn't really matter. If in Pokemon, your Zoroark is disguised as a fighting type and you're fighting a psychic type, this is a huge advantage. If, in Smash, Zoroark looks like Roy it doesn't really matter, your opponent hits you, breaks the illusion, and thinks "oh, i guess i'm fighting a zoroark now".

If I had to choose a gen 5 Pokemon to add, my first choice would probably be Genesect. Hydreigon would be my second choice, and due to it's long history in the competitive scene I think Lando-T would be funny and also somewhat deserving.

Yeah, that is a good point about Zoroark. Converting its ability 1-1 into Smash would be impossible but I think there are other ways we could reference it. It does have more than enough other moves to have a really interesting moveset without having its exact ability but Smash would have to take some liberties there. I think one solution could be taking some inspiration from the Pokemon movies rather than the mechanics of the game itself. Zoroark could temporarily transform into one of the three legendary beasts (Entei, Raikou, and Suicune) for one of its specials. That would still reference its transform ability in some way even if it doesn't work quite the same way as it does in the games.

 

[dream1ng]

That's fair. I'll try to explain my reasoning for each of those characters. I already explained Magus, which admittedly probably isn't going to happen but he's just a personal favorite character of mine so it felt wrong not to include him.

Zoroark

Zoroark was pretty much the mascot of Black and White and was highly promoted in Legends Arceus. The Pokemon slot is very tricky and pretty much impossible to predict. Rather than go with "A gen 9 Pokemon", I wanted to go with a Pokemon that currently exists. Out of all current Pokemon, I feel Zoroark has a pretty good chance.

If timing was different and Gen 6 hadn't showed up when it did we probably would've got Zoroark in Smash 4, but its time has long since passed. Even with Hisuian Zoroark. Because before you know it, Gen 9 will be here. And who knows where we'll be Pokemon-wise by the time of the next Smash.

E.M.M.I.

I've been switching back and forth between E.M.M.I. and Raven Beak. I think both have very good reasons to be chosen as the next Metroid rep and I could see either getting in. I suspect Raven Beak is probably the more likely of the two here since it has an actual important role in the story and is the final boss. However, E.M.M.I. got a ton more promotion and I feel is generally more recognizable because of that. I also think it would be awesome moving around as E.M.M.I. being able to crawl up walls and ceilings. Sakurai would have to take creative liberties with either character as E.M.M.I. has very few attacks to work with and most of Raven Beak's are huge screen wide effects that would be difficult to implement as a Smash character.

I think people are very much overstating the likelihood of one-off Metroid characters. We haven't even been able to get one-off Zelda characters, or one-off Kirby characters. This isn't FE or Xenoblade where showing up once is good enough. Raven Beak and EMMI aren't part of the main cast, they just had notable roles in one game. And EMMI was more like a recurring miniboss than anything else.

Medusa

Medusa is mostly here due to the rumors of the Bandai-Namco remake of a Nintendo action game. A lot of people are speculating that this might be a Switch remake of Kid Icarus Uprising. If this is the case, I feel that it gives the character a renewed chance to make it into Smash. She could probably be a semi clone of Palutena, which would make things even easier. I've also always loved her design so she's partially here as a personal favorite.

It's a little putting the cart before the horse though, isn't it? Even if there's a remake... it is just a remake. I'd say Medusa doesn't have any kind of impressive odds until an actual new KI. As it is now, three characters for a series like KI is, frankly, more than fair.

But I guess being a derivative of Palutena isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Xehanort

Sora's position as the Smash Ballot winner shows that there is a ton of interest in the franchise. Cloud just got Sephiroth in Ultimate and Xehanort has been a huge part of the Kingdom Hearts franchise since the beginning. Part of my reasoning is that I just love the character but I think that the main antagonist of the series has a decent chance to be chosen as the second rep. The question is which version of the character we get. All three mainline versions have valid reasons to be chosen over the others. I decided to include them all as a transformation style character even if that might not be the most likely scenario.

I think your bias is clouding the fact that there are many additional characters from third-party franchises that actually have demand behind them. Xehanort isn't Sephiroth. Or a second Sonic character. Or Chun-Li. Or even Alucard or Zero, frankly.

The Battletoads

I believe that the Battletoads, Bill Rizer, and Ryu Hyabusa are the top three contenders when it comes to retro reps from the NES era. I've already gone over RARE's relationship with Nintendo several times and the importance Battletoads had in kickstarting RARE's success so I won't go into detail there. What I will say is that I don't think people are giving these guys enough credit for how perfectly their skillset translates into Smash. That is one major advantage the Toads have over Bill Rizer. Bill pretty much uses projectiles exclusively and a lot of people aren't fans of zoner heavy characters in Smash. The same can be said for two of the the top three requested Microsoft reps in Master Chief and Doom Slayer. There's also the fact that Master Chief has never appeared on a Nintendo console that I don't think people are taking into account.

I think there's a pretty big precipice between Ryu Hayabusa and the other ones, because Ryu actually carried on into something substantial post-retro era. I mean we probably wouldn't even get retro Ryu as the default.

I'm not going to change your mind on Battletoads but you do overstate their merit in the face of all the other third-parties we could be receiving, even just from Microsoft and their growing compendium of big name franchises.

I will say though that going on about their significance to Rare is like when people go on about KOS-MOS's significance to Monolith like that's the company who either chooses the characters or has the roster revolve around them.

Fulgore

I don't think people are giving enough credit to Killer Instinct when it comes to fighting game reps. The 2013 reboot is generally considered one of the best fighting games of all time and has sold over 13 million copies. That is a phenomenal achievement given the game's extremely limited budget. The original game was also a huge success and was closely related to Nintendo. There has been a huge public demand for a new Killer Instinct game in recent years, so much so that Phil Spencer had to come out and make a public statement acknowledging that he hears the fans. KI also doesn't have the same potential issues in Japan as Mortal Kombat as far as western fighting games are concerned. There are rumors of a new Killer Instinct game in development by Bandai-Namco, which certainly wouldn't hurt things.

Well first of all, there's a distinction necessary to make between units sold and player count. Killer Instinct 2013 is a free-to-play game, it hasn't sold 13 million units. If we were counting things in that way, Fire Emblem Heroes would be four times better selling than the next best-selling FE game, but it doesn't work like that.

And then past that, KI just has the problem of being of kind of unremarkable in terms of achievement compared to all the other third-parties out there. It's very middle of the pack, when we're still taking from much higher up. And again, Microsoft has much heavier hitters.

And six of one half dozen of the other with MK really, both series have a bunch of obstacles which makes neither a likely option.

Nemesis

This one is also a bit of a personal bias but not one without some logic behind it at least. I don't think there's much of a question that Resident Evil is a hugely popular franchise and it wouldn't be too surprising if we did get a character in Smash at some point. I think the logical choice that most people go to is one of the human characters like Chris, Jill or Leon. I'll admit that this is probably more likely but I think Nemesis would be a lot more interesting of a character. I personally think having a zombie as a playable representation of the series makes a ton of sense. He is also extremely unique looking and is moveset would be equally unique. Nemesis' main issue is his design might be a bit much for an E rated game so they would probably have to find a way to tone it down a bit.

I'm not going to disagree with you that Nemesis probably would be more interesting... there's just no way they're not going to choose either Jill, Leon or Chris. Nemesis couldn't even get a spirit.

And Magus you've basically covered yourself. I get wanting to stick by your favorites but that series is gonna be Crono or no one.

 

[ahemtoday]

To be fair a lot of custom Moves Could still be tweaks for Example
Toon links Custom moves could reffrence Bomb Arrows, the Magical Boomerang etc
But the Main Reason For Custom Moves is That Characters Like Ganondorf or Link Can Get New Movesets But Keeping Their old ones! Im Sure there would be Presets for every Major Version

But do you know the Best thjing About the Perfect Smash (I maybe should change the Name) You can Discuss what you like and dislike and i think we will find a Way To make most people happy!

I... don't really think there's a compromise to be made here. Even if you try to make a convenient road around character customization, I'll know I could have done it, and then I'll be thinking about whether I should switch side specials instead of stuff I actually want to be thinking about. I think custom moves being similar on some characters would only lessen the problem rather than eliminate it - especially considering I don't think I want which characters I play to be determined by... not even what custom moves they have, but the way in which they have them. And customs being much less off-to-the-side than in Smash 4 would do the exact opposite of lessen the problem.

Listen. I get why the big prominence of custom moves would be cool and a selling point for a big new game that has to top Ultimate. And the growing rise of cosmetics in fighting games - with MK11 even having customs kinda like this - proves this is something a lot of people would be excited for. But based on my experience with Smash 4 Palutena, I have to assume that if you put this much emphasis on custom moves, I would just... not like most of the game. Mine wouldn't be the majority opinion by a long shot, so... I think you just have to lose me here. I'm sorry.

 

[Yamat08]

On the topic of custom moves, I kinda like what Quillion suggested earlier: give pre-existing characters an extra moveset to select, maybe with them equipping a different weapon or taking on a different stance. If they did it this way, not only would you NOT have to specifically customize a load-out for certain characters (outside the Miis), but the new specials (and potentially new A-attacks) could be specifically designed to meld with the other specials and attacks in that kit so that they could be properly balanced, which could essentially spare the community from needing to make another one of their own Custom Moveset Projects.

Of course, the major roadblock is should they design what's effectively an entirely new Fighter just for a character who's already on the roster anyway? Probably wouldn't be worth bothering with from the programmers' perspective, but I will say that pre-made alternative sets do seem like they could at least be more worthwhile than individually equippable specials that almost nobody's gonna use anyway (especially if they were repeat the mistake of expecting the player to gather up the damn things, through horrible RNG no less).

 

[CastletonSnob]

Crazy idea: Mike Tyson for Smash. Tyson is technically a video game character.

His Final Smash is just an uppercut.

 

[Jotari]

One thing about removing Lucina and just making her a skin of Marth is that, I'm sure, a lot of people like Lucina's style and would prefer to play Marth without as much focus on landing the tipper. But what if there were certain gimmicks you could turn on and off from a character editor. Lucina is a skin of Marth, but you can edit Marth to not have a tipper and play like Luina (as well as decide custom moves). You want to play as Kazuya without hugely esoteric move inputs? Just have a simplified option. I'm not sure what other options there could be, Pichu with slightly weaker attacks but no self damage, perhaps. Character editing need not just be for special moves and skins, there are certain things characters to that could be edited in and out (personally I think, while implemented in a bad way, the Pokemon trainer's stamina mechanic was a conceptually good idea for making player switch battle style mid match. Implementing it in such a way that they're more powerful when high stamina but less powerful with low stamina as an alternative option to no stamina at all would give more diversity with the movesets without requiring much development effort at all).

 

[Oracle Link]

One thing about removing Lucina and just making her a skin of Marth is that, I'm sure, a lot of people like Lucina's style and would prefer to play Marth without as much focus on landing the tipper. But what if there were certain gimmicks you could turn on and off from a character editor. Lucina is a skin of Marth, but you can edit Marth to not have a tipper and play like Luina (as well as decide custom moves). You want to play as Kazuya without hugely esoteric move inputs? Just have a simplified option. I'm not sure what other options there could be, Pichu with slightly weaker attacks but no self damage, perhaps. Character editing need not just be for special moves and skins, there are certain things characters to that could be edited in and out (personally I think, while implemented in a bad way, the Pokemon trainer's stamina mechanic was a conceptually good idea for making player switch battle style mid match. Implementing it in such a way that they're more powerful when high stamina but less powerful with low stamina as an alternative option to no stamina at all would give more diversity with the movesets without requiring much development effort at all).

And thats the Magic of the Perfect Smash! If you have ideas for Options, Possible rosters or other things here:
Perfect smash bros Go wild!

 

[Gengar84]

If timing was different and Gen 6 hadn't showed up when it did we probably would've got Zoroark in Smash 4, but its time has long since passed. Even with Hisuian Zoroark. Because before you know it, Gen 9 will be here. And who knows where we'll be Pokemon-wise by the time of the next Smash.


I think people are very much overstating the likelihood of one-off Metroid characters. We haven't even been able to get one-off Zelda characters, or one-off Kirby characters. This isn't FE or Xenoblade where showing up once is good enough. Raven Beak and EMMI aren't part of the main cast, they just had notable roles in one game. And EMMI was more like a recurring miniboss than anything else.


It's a little putting the cart before the horse though, isn't it? Even if there's a remake... it is just a remake. I'd say Medusa doesn't have any kind of impressive odds until an actual new KI. As it is now, three characters for a series like KI is, frankly, more than fair.

But I guess being a derivative of Palutena isn't outside the realm of possibility.


I think your bias is clouding the fact that there are many additional characters from third-party franchises that actually have demand behind them. Xehanort isn't Sephiroth. Or a second Sonic character. Or Chun-Li. Or even Alucard or Zero, frankly.


I think there's a pretty big precipice between Ryu Hayabusa and the other ones, because Ryu actually carried on into something substantial post-retro era. I mean we probably wouldn't even get retro Ryu as the default.

I'm not going to change your mind on Battletoads but you do overstate their merit in the face of all the other third-parties we could be receiving, even just from Microsoft and their growing compendium of big name franchises.

I will say though that going on about their significance to Rare is like when people go on about KOS-MOS's significance to Monolith like that's the company who either chooses the characters or has the roster revolve around them.


Well first of all, there's a distinction necessary to make between units sold and player count. Killer Instinct 2013 is a free-to-play game, it hasn't sold 13 million units. If we were counting things in that way, Fire Emblem Heroes would be four times better selling than the next best-selling FE game, but it doesn't work like that.

And then past that, KI just has the problem of being of kind of unremarkable in terms of achievement compared to all the other third-parties out there. It's very middle of the pack, when we're still taking from much higher up. And again, Microsoft has much heavier hitters.

And six of one half dozen of the other with MK really, both series have a bunch of obstacles which makes neither a likely option.


I'm not going to disagree with you that Nemesis probably would be more interesting... there's just no way they're not going to choose either Jill, Leon or Chris. Nemesis couldn't even get a spirit.

And Magus you've basically covered yourself. I get wanting to stick by your favorites but that series is gonna be Crono or no one.

Yeah, my roster was never really meant as a definitive list of who's going to show up. It was more of a hybrid between a prediction list and characters that I personally want to see who I think have a chance. I do agree with you on a lot of these points which make these characters potentially not the number one most likely choices but Smash has always been known to surprise people. Sakurai himself said that Smash isn't just a list of all of the most well known characters and fighters can be chosen for various other reasons. I think a lot of people are missing that and strictly focusing on only the most popular games without thinking about how the character actually fits into Smash.

I think you’re missed misunderstanding the argument I’m trying to make here regarding a lot of these characters. I never made the claim that I think these are the most likely to be chosen for Smash, only that they are possibilities that most people aren’t thinking about. In all honesty, Master Chief, Doom Slayer, or Crash would likely be the Microsoft rep chosen but it isn’t a foregone conclusion. Most Smash fans seem to only look at a few characters and disregard everyone else as impossible. On top of that, all I did this time was just put their names on a list, I didn’t even start defending my choice until I was called out on it. What’s the point of even discussing anything here if we’re just going to dismiss any character beyond the top 10 most speculated? Again, I don’t think the Battletoads are likely, I just think that they are possible, I’m not sure why that is so controversial.

Beyond just my personal preference, I do think that characters like the Battletoads and Fulgore have better movesets that fit into a fighting game like Smash than FPS characters like Master Chief and Doom Slayer despite their series being less popular. Sure, FPS characters could be made to work but it wouldn’t be as easy. I also had Jinx and Bill Rizer on my list already so I didn't want to overload the roster with gunner characters. I think League of Legends has likely passed both Halo and DOOM in terms of general popularity so I might put Jinx in over both Chief and Doom Slayer. .

Sarah Kerrigan was chosen as the Activision/Blizzard character so Crash didn't make the cut. Since I'm often accused of overstating RARE's popularity, I think most Smash fans do the same with Crash. Sure, Crash was a fairly popular platformer but it had nowhere near the cultural influence or success as Blizzard's games like WarCraft, StarCraft, or Diablo. I don't often bring that up because people are free to like who they want but I thought it was relevant because I'm constantly accused of doing the same with characters I like.

Finally, while I do really like the roster that RodNutTakin has come up with, I personally don't think any of the characters you named (other than maybe Magus) are any less likely than many of the names on his list. I don't expect to see Toy Link, Diskun, Arle, Iori, a second Persona character, or Kris. It's possible that it's just my bias talking but I wouldn't put any of those characters above anyone you named from my list other than Magus. I'm not sure why my list was singled out for having unlikely choices but to each their own I guess. I’m not really sure what it is about my choices that causes so much controversy when some others have even more obscure picks and don’t seem to get the same backlash.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Now SEGA vs. Capcom? That's easier, but I personally rather a Nintendo vs. SEGA, so we can have a better crossover than the Olympics (it's half-good, half-ehh, but whatevs).

I think this would be the only Nintendo vs. game I'd like to see. Neither Capcom or Microsoft really do it for me but I'll definitely take a Nintendo vs. SEGA game over them.

 

[Sucumbio]

The more I think about a versus game the more I feel like Smash already is the best way to get that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Except there wouldn't BE a FE section. There'd be 1 character slot.

Yeah that won't happen. With 8 playable Fire Emblem characters already in, it won't get too significant cuts. And if cuts happen, bet on newcomers from Fire Emblem.

Just Marth and his clones tossed into one character simply is delusional. Fire Emblem is bigger than it has ever been.

It's like we're back in 2014 or so I swear.

 

[Ivander]

It's like we're back in 2014 or so I swear.

More around 2015/2016, around when Corrin was announced. I don't think anybody really complained about Marth, Ike, Robin, Lucina(aside some regarding her being a clone of Marth) and Roy(since a good number of fans wanted him back and had his moveset updated to more semi-clone status). It's when Corrin came where Fire Emblem complaints really started.

 

[osby]

More around 2015/2016, around when Corrin was announced. I don't think anybody really complained about Marth, Ike, Robin, Lucina(aside some regarding her being a clone of Marth) and Roy(since a good number of fans wanted him back and had his moveset updated to more semi-clone status). It's when Corrin came where Fire Emblem complaints really started.

Nah, people were already making conspiracy theories about Roy's return before Corrin was a thing, mostly because FE now had as many characters as Zelda.

It's true that Fates getting a character was when FE haters got really insufferable but it wasn't the first thing.

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

How do you feel about Fictional Video Game characters being in Smash?

When I say Fictional Video Game, I mean that the very existence of the video game itself is fictional.

Whether it is a game within a show, or the entire show revolves around the game (Sword Art Online and Log Horizon, for example), is irrelevent.

The point is, is that in the work of fiction the "video game" comes from, they are video game characters, but from our actual real world perspective, they originated in a different type of media source.

So with that said, how would you feel about such a character getting into Smash?

Also, which one would you add to Smash if you wanted to add one?

 

[Sucumbio]

Wasn't Roy more a Marth clone in melee? I haven't played it in ages but I recall thinking "how is he different than Marth?"

How do you feel about Fictional Video Game characters being in Smash?



When I say Fictional Video Game, I mean that the very existence of the video game itself is fictional.



Whether it is a game within a show, or the entire show revolves around the game (Sword Art Online and Log Horizon, for example), is irrelevent.



The point is, is that in the work of fiction the "video game" comes from, they are video game characters, but from our actual real world perspective, they originated in a different type of media source.



So with that said, how would you feel about such a character getting into Smash?



Also, which one would you add to Smash if you wanted to add one?

Kinda like Wreck-it Ralph? I dunno... I guess there's some fictional games/characters that could work...

 

[Oracle Link]

Yeah that won't happen. With 8 playable Fire Emblem characters already in, it won't get too significant cuts. And if cuts happen, bet on newcomers from Fire Emblem.

Just Marth and his clones tossed into one character simply is delusional. Fire Emblem is bigger than it has ever been.

It's like we're back in 2014 or so I swear.

than again Kirby has only 3 Characters! And Kirby IS HUGE!

 

[Speed Weed]

Nintendo vs. SEGA (Potential Roster)
I made a roster using ConnorRentz's Roster Builder and I tried to diversify the roster, especially the Nintendo side, but only 8 of them aren't playable in Smash, so I think I failed on that part.

So as the person who's been constantly shilling SEGA stuff in these threads for a while now, I feel like I should give some feedback on the SEGA side here

• I think Sonic could probably do with just three reps in a roster side this small
• Similarly, I don't think Persona needs the second rep in a roster of this size - having one for Persona and one for other Megaten stuff is enough. SEGA rosters always have this ATLUS bias and I don't get it. And I'm not a fan of the picks either - Jack Frost feels like a really bland basic choice (i like him tho, he's a funny hee ho boy) and Yukari is just plain weird
• Also in the same vein, I think having two Bayo reps and Jack Cayman is really overdoing it. Having just Bayo is enough. SEGA rosters are also often biased towards Platinum and I don't get that either. Why are SEGA rosters so afraid of in-house SEGA stuff
• Sakura Wars getting two reps is actually pretty cool, but having Amamiya over the OG Sakura is weird
• Lotta important series missing. No Phantasy Star? No Valkyria Chronicles? No House of the Dead? No Streets of Rage? No Puyo or Yakuza?I'd say Shining too but I can forgive you for that one cause it can be pretty hard to decide on a rep. I will say though, I'm glad Ryo is here! He may seem like an obvious pick but I've seen a lot of rosters lately that don't include him for some reason and I don't get why, Shenmue is like super important
• Also, a Resonance of Fate rep? I like that! Zephyr's not who I'd pick, but you know what? I dig it. I respect that pull
• Now for the elephant in the room: Pulseman is an extremely weird choice. I don't get it. I don't get it at all. If it's because of Pokemon characters being in the roster, then that's actually a pretty cool way to take advantage of the crossover potential. But otherwise, that's a weird pick. First things first, I'm not sure SEGA even own him. But even if they did, that's still such a random choice. And, like, I like Pulseman! I think he's cool! But he's also extremely, and I mean extremely, far down the totem pole of SEGA IP, and again, that's if SEGA even own him at all. I like deep cuts (hell, I literally just now praised the addition of Zephyr), but if you wanted a deep cut, I could name plenty of potential deep cut picks who, IMO, would make more sense than Pulseman. Obscure characters are cool but this one feels like a bit much, especially considering the amount of notable series that are omitted here

I know I sound harsh here, but I'm not trying to **** on your roster - I genuinely love analyzing other people's SEGA rosters, I think it's a really fun way of discussing SEGA and their status in the gaming world. Cause there are a lot - and I mean a lot - of wrongful perceptions of SEGA floating around, and they often bleed into these rosters. I have a lot of issues with this roster, I think it feels a bit too safe and it falls into a lot of the same pitfalls I always see (omitting important IP, weird bias towards Atlus and Platinum, including random unimportant characters over the aforementioned important IP), but I also think it's a roster that seems like it had passion put into it and, with a little more research and a little nudge in the right direction, could turn into something special. This has potential, I just think you should do more research

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah that won't happen.

Of couse it won't.

It's what they SHOULD have done in the first place. It's too late to do it now.

 

[fogbadge]

than again Kirby has only 3 Characters! And Kirby IS HUGE!

certainly bigger than fire emblem

 

[Wonder Smash]

The more I think about a versus game the more I feel like Smash already is the best way to get that.

If we're talking about Nintendo, yeah sure. Who wouldn't want to see Nintendo and various other companies duke it out in one game?

But looking at SEGA's huge library games and characters, it's a shame that they seem like they would settle for a few character appearances in another company's huge crossover when they have so much potential if they were to make their own.

 

[HyperSomari64]

How do you feel about Fictional Video Game characters being in Smash?

When I say Fictional Video Game, I mean that the very existence of the video game itself is fictional.

Whether it is a game within a show, or the entire show revolves around the game (Sword Art Online and Log Horizon, for example), is irrelevent.

The point is, is that in the work of fiction the "video game" comes from, they are video game characters, but from our actual real world perspective, they originated in a different type of media source.

So with that said, how would you feel about such a character getting into Smash?

Also, which one would you add to Smash if you wanted to add one?

Time to see Super Donkey Bros. in Smash.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

One thing I figured would be interesting discourse is how Sonic and the possiblility of it getting a second rep has evolved over time. Sonic, at least in terms of smash speculation, was always looked at a bit specially and there was some desire for a second rep. While it was never particularly a mainstream idea, it still was around. Starting in Smash Ultimate, with the idea of echo fighters, Shadow really picked up a lot of steam and to be honest, I can easily see him becoming an echo next time. But he did not make the cut. Sonic reps did get a huge spike in discussion when Sephiroth came along. While Sonic as a series was entertained in the past lightly after echo fighters were a thing, now people were considering if Sonic could get a unique character. Due perhaps to a real glut of iconic villains to push left, Eggman wound up getting a huge groundswell of support. Tails also got some support with his possibility being more likely in the future.

Fast forward to now, and it honestly is interesting that people seem to have this mentality now of when rather than if when it comes to a second Sonic character. While we could get into a tedious discourse on why this is the case and Sonic seems to get special treatment in that regard compared when you factor in other third parties, let's ignore that and focus on the potential candidates. In my opinion, these four are the most realistic candidates: Eggman, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow.

Ironically, I would say Shadow is probably the most likely, but that is mainly due to how easy it would be to make him an echo fighter of Sonic and how widely popular the idea is. Sure, some people would prefer a unique Shadow, but to be honest you can easily make Shadow an echo or slightly different clone and you can still have a wildly popular newcomer pick without much of the effort. In terms of him being unique, I do not see it being that likely especially compared to the rest of the classic crew.

In terms of unique newcomers, I think it is between Tails and Eggman. Tails you can make as kind of a semi clone like Toon Link, which would lessen the workload. Aside from that, there are strong arguments to put both of them in. Both are pretty much the only true recurring Sonic characters that show up all the time outside of Sonic. Both are widely iconic characters in their own right. I think honestly it is not infeasible to end up getting both in Smash someday. If I had to say which one I would prefer, it would be Eggman, but that is mainly due to Robitnik being one of the last huge iconic gaming villains we have left to add into Smash. Also, a lot of what I said about Tails and how he is recurring and can be a Sonic semi clone can be said about Knuckles, but honestly I think that Knuckles is kind of kneecapped a bit due to not being as consistent of a face in Sonic over the last fifteen years or so compared to Tails.

Gun to my head, if you asked me what Sonic's representation would look like in the next smash, I would say at the bare minimum we would probably see Shadow come in as an echo fighter. I could see Tails and/or Eggman showing up as well, but I am not nearly as confident as us getting a Shadow echo fighter.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Apparently, Scout and Soldier are going to be in the Top 3 with Heavy in the Global Smash Roster.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Wasn't Roy more a Marth clone in melee? I haven't played it in ages but I recall thinking "how is he different than Marth?"

Yeah, sort of. He still had the reverse tipper thing, but his animations were basically the same as Marth back then.

certainly bigger than fire emblem

Sales-wise they are about the same at this point. Ten years ago you'd be right, though, and I'd agree Kirby has more of a cultural impact.

 

[fogbadge]

Sales-wise they are about the same at this point. Ten years ago you'd be right, though, and I'd agree Kirby has more of a cultural impact.

last I checked Kirby was still on top

 

[osby]

Nintendo vs. SEGA (Potential Roster)
I made a roster using ConnorRentz's Roster Builder and I tried to diversify the roster, especially the Nintendo side, but only 8 of them aren't playable in Smash, so I think I failed on that part.

I mean, I can point out the flaws of the roster but it has Yukari so it doesn't have any.

100/10

 

[Diddy Kong]

than again Kirby has only 3 Characters! And Kirby IS HUGE!

I agree Kirby is huge, but I cannot picture a reality where Kirby would be justified to have a playable character amount that Fire Emblem has. Bandana Dee is longer overdue, and you could indeed make arguments for yet another newcomer, and maybe a Echo / clone / semi clone in the form of Galactia Knight, but that's it.

I love Donkey Kong too, and it's bigger than both Kirby and Fire Emblem, but add anyone beyond Dixie, Cranky and Funky (who'd be a Echo or clone too) and it's overkill.

The only franchise I could see grow bigger in roster size than Fire Emblem is Zelda honestly.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Nintendo vs. SEGA (Potential Roster)
I made a roster using ConnorRentz's Roster Builder and I tried to diversify the roster, especially the Nintendo side, but only 8 of them aren't playable in Smash, so I think I failed on that part.

So as the person who's been constantly shilling SEGA stuff in these threads for a while now, I feel like I should give some feedback on the SEGA side here

• I think Sonic could probably do with just three reps in a roster side this small
• Similarly, I don't think Persona needs the second rep in a roster of this size - having one for Persona and one for other Megaten stuff is enough. SEGA rosters always have this ATLUS bias and I don't get it. And I'm not a fan of the picks either - Jack Frost feels like a really bland basic choice (i like him tho, he's a funny hee ho boy) and Yukari is just plain weird
• Also in the same vein, I think having two Bayo reps and Jack Cayman is really overdoing it. Having just Bayo is enough. SEGA rosters are also often biased towards Platinum and I don't get that either. Why are SEGA rosters so afraid of in-house SEGA stuff
• Sakura Wars getting two reps is actually pretty cool, but having Amamiya over the OG Sakura is weird
• Lotta important series missing. No Phantasy Star? No Valkyria Chronicles? No House of the Dead? No Streets of Rage? No Puyo or Yakuza?I'd say Shining too but I can forgive you for that one cause it can be pretty hard to decide on a rep. I will say though, I'm glad Ryo is here! He may seem like an obvious pick but I've seen a lot of rosters lately that don't include him for some reason and I don't get why, Shenmue is like super important
• Also, a Resonance of Fate rep? I like that! Zephyr's not who I'd pick, but you know what? I dig it. I respect that pull
• Now for the elephant in the room: Pulseman is an extremely weird choice. I don't get it. I don't get it at all. If it's because of Pokemon characters being in the roster, then that's actually a pretty cool way to take advantage of the crossover potential. But otherwise, that's a weird pick. First things first, I'm not sure SEGA even own him. But even if they did, that's still such a random choice. And, like, I like Pulseman! I think he's cool! But he's also extremely, and I mean extremely, far down the totem pole of SEGA IP, and again, that's if SEGA even own him at all. I like deep cuts (hell, I literally just now praised the addition of Zephyr), but if you wanted a deep cut, I could name plenty of potential deep cut picks who, IMO, would make more sense than Pulseman. Obscure characters are cool but this one feels like a bit much, especially considering the amount of notable series that are omitted here

I know I sound harsh here, but I'm not trying to **** on your roster - I genuinely love analyzing other people's SEGA rosters, I think it's a really fun way of discussing SEGA and their status in the gaming world. Cause there are a lot - and I mean a lot - of wrongful perceptions of SEGA floating around, and they often bleed into these rosters. I have a lot of issues with this roster, I think it feels a bit too safe and it falls into a lot of the same pitfalls I always see (omitting important IP, weird bias towards Atlus and Platinum, including random unimportant characters over the aforementioned important IP), but I also think it's a roster that seems like it had passion put into it and, with a little more research and a little nudge in the right direction, could turn into something special. This has potential, I just think you should do more research

Seconding a lot of what Speed Weed said. Lots of out there choices on both sides. For example, if they did have 3 pokemon, I would be shocked if Vespiquen was one of the two. Pikachu and Mewtwo, sure that makes sense. Vespiquen tho feels super out there and tbh I think you can sub it with plenty of other popular pokemon like Lucario, Greninja, Mimikyu, or what have you. FE also is weird going with Ike and Celica. I do appreciate some of your more out there choices and call backs, but at points I feel the roster feels just too weird. I know you were actively trying to make the smash side not smash centric, but in a crossover like this I feel that is kind of a fool's errand. Representing Star Fox without Fox or repping Fire Emblem without Marth, an Awakening pick, or Byelth feels like you are biting your nose to spite your face.

 

[Gengar84]

I feel like I need to take a break from this site for a while. I enjoy speculating about my favorite characters and joining in on what other people are bringing forward but it seems like everything I’ve been saying lately has just been getting people upset. I never really wanted to do that and was just trying to share my love for certain characters but it seems like no one wants to hear it. I’ve tried very hard to clarify that what I’m saying is just my personal opinion but whenever I mention something is even possible beyond what is already being speculated, it tends to annoy people. I’m at a loss of what to do at this point. I try to contribute to other people’s conversations and characters but whenever I try to put forward something of my own, it never seems to work out. Again, I apologize if I offended anyone here as that was never my intention. Rather than getting overly frustrated trying to defend my opinions over and over, I think it’s probably for the best to just step away for a while. Thank you to everyone that’s given me feedback and talked with me. I enjoyed our conversations overall and I’ll miss a lot of users here. I’ll be back once I have some time to clear my head and reassess the kinds of things I discuss here.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I feel like I need to take a break from this site for a while. I enjoy speculating about my favorite characters and joining in on what other people are bringing forward but it seems like everything I’ve been saying lately has just been getting people upset. I never really wanted to do that and was just trying to share my love for certain characters but it seems like no one wants to hear it. I’ve tried very hard to clarify that what I’m saying is just my personal opinion but whenever I mention something is even possible beyond what is already being speculated, it tends to annoy people. I’m at a loss of what to do at this point. I try to contribute to other people’s conversations and characters but whenever I try to put forward something of my own, it never seems to work out. Again, I apologize if I offended anyone here as that was never my intention. Rather than getting overly frustrated trying to defend my opinions over and over, I think it’s probably for the best to just step away for a while. Thank you to everyone that’s given me feedback and talked with me. I enjoyed our conversations overall and I’ll miss a lot of users here. I’ll be back once I have some time to clear my head and reassess the kinds of things I discuss here.

It's all part of a sort of hive mind , and I typically enjoy your original view about things. Don't take things personal! We will all clash in opinion sometimes, it's only natural.

That being said if it's better for your mentality to take a break, by all means do so. Hope to see you back soon.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

last I checked Kirby was still on top

I'm guessing you're talking about total series sales numbers? Because I was going by individual titles, which recently have been pretty even.

I feel like I need to take a break from this site for a while. I enjoy speculating about my favorite characters and joining in on what other people are bringing forward but it seems like everything I’ve been saying lately has just been getting people upset. I never really wanted to do that and was just trying to share my love for certain characters but it seems like no one wants to hear it. I’ve tried very hard to clarify that what I’m saying is just my personal opinion but whenever I mention something is even possible beyond what is already being speculated, it tends to annoy people. I’m at a loss of what to do at this point. I try to contribute to other people’s conversations and characters but whenever I try to put forward something of my own, it never seems to work out. Again, I apologize if I offended anyone here as that was never my intention. Rather than getting overly frustrated trying to defend my opinions over and over, I think it’s probably for the best to just step away for a while. Thank you to everyone that’s given me feedback and talked with me. I enjoyed our conversations overall and I’ll miss a lot of users here. I’ll be back once I have some time to clear my head and reassess the kinds of things I discuss here.

In my book, you've been cool, but do what you need to do for your mental health. I've know I've taken my share of breaks from this site and social media in general, and it's definitely been good for me. Hope you figure things out.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm guessing you're talking about total series sales numbers? Because I was going by individual titles, which recently have been pretty even.

oh I do beg your pardon

 

[chocolatejr9]

I feel like I need to take a break from this site for a while. I enjoy speculating about my favorite characters and joining in on what other people are bringing forward but it seems like everything I’ve been saying lately has just been getting people upset. I never really wanted to do that and was just trying to share my love for certain characters but it seems like no one wants to hear it. I’ve tried very hard to clarify that what I’m saying is just my personal opinion but whenever I mention something is even possible beyond what is already being speculated, it tends to annoy people. I’m at a loss of what to do at this point. I try to contribute to other people’s conversations and characters but whenever I try to put forward something of my own, it never seems to work out. Again, I apologize if I offended anyone here as that was never my intention. Rather than getting overly frustrated trying to defend my opinions over and over, I think it’s probably for the best to just step away for a while. Thank you to everyone that’s given me feedback and talked with me. I enjoyed our conversations overall and I’ll miss a lot of users here. I’ll be back once I have some time to clear my head and reassess the kinds of things I discuss here.

Sorry if I've been part of the problem. I'll admit, we've had the occasional clash of opinion, but I do genuinely enjoy interacting with you, in spite of that. Still, do what you think you need to do, alright?

 

[Gengar84]

Sorry if I've been part of the problem. I'll admit, we've had the occasional clash of opinion, but I do genuinely enjoy interacting with you, in spite of that. Still, do what you think you need to do, alright?

Nah, you’ve been cool. I think it’s mostly just recent comments that have been getting to me. I don’t want to call out any names but two people now have told me that my talking about the Battletoads was annoying and I was told the other day that my opinion regarding Conker was laughable. I don’t have any problems with people disagreeing with me as long as we can stay respectful about it. I actually like that people have their own opinions and it’s usually fun trying to express why I feel the way that I do about things. It’s just that I feel like I’ve been repeating myself over and over lately and I don’t think what I’m trying to say is getting through to anyone. That’s probably my fault for not being very good at explaining things.

I think I must not be doing enough job clarifying that what I’m saying are just my personal opinions. I also never tried to claim that the characters I talk about are the most likely choices, just that I think they are possibilities. For some reason, a lot of people tend to interpret that as me thinking that my favorites are the number one most likely option and everyone else is wrong for thinking the early they do. If I’m not allowed to talk about any of my favorite characters without annoying people on here, I’m not sure what’s really left for me to talk about.

I think another thing that’s been pretty discouraging is that almost no one else seems to share my opinions or tastes on characters. That’s actually a good thing when you step back and think about it because it would be boring if everyone felt the same way but it would be nice to at least have someone who shares my views so I don’t feel like I’m crazy.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Nintendo's Mother Brain vs. SEGA's Mother Brain.

Imagine that.