Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SharkLord]

If another Sonic character joins the fight, which one would you prefer?
Metal Sonic, Shadow, Eggman, Knuckles, Amy Tails, Silver, or any other character? (Sorry to not be rude, but there are so many Sonic characters to list.)

Is it cheating to say a revamped Sonic, plus a Shadow pseudoclone that plays off his new specials? Sonic and Shadow have enough cool, distinct movements to make their own normals, but they usually share the Boost, Spindash, and Homing Attack, albeit with some differences made over the years. so they can easily pull a Fox/Wolf with them... But Sonic, as he is now, would leave Shadow a really disappointing moveset to be a clone of.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Weirdly consistent trend between the Sega characters, I wonder if there's some reason for that.

I really can't stand that Sonic still has his 06 theme though, I always disliked how muddy that one sounds. Mostly compared to the aforementioned Adventure theme where, if you're gonna copy paste one over from a different game, at least pick the one that matches Sonic's energy and swagger.

Honestly, would've loved the Mania one even if they just ripped it from the game itself, but I also think there generally should've been more Mania music in Ultimate than JUST Studiopolis, as much of a banger as that song is lol

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Weirdly consistent trend between the Sega characters, I wonder if there's some reason for that.

I really can't stand that Sonic still has his 06 theme though, I always disliked how muddy that one sounds. Mostly compared to the aforementioned Adventure theme where, if you're gonna copy paste one over from a different game, at least pick the one that matches Sonic's energy and swagger.

Following that trend this song will probably be ripped for smash at some point.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Contra kinda inspired Cuphead's gameplay, didn't it? It would seem kind of wrong anyway to see an indie run and gun character with only one get in over a pioneer in the genre that's got almost 20 games in its series.

I mean we got Bayonetta before Dante, also Cuphead is more popular than Contra ever was, sorry to say.

 

[ninjahmos]

If either Kiryu or Ichiban ever get into Smash, they should get Yoko Shimomura to do a remix of Baka Mitai.

 

[SharkLord]

View attachment 399432

How does this even happen?

Sonic's reputation was in the dumps ever since Sonic '06 (Or hell, even Shadow '05) and Sega's been scrambling to do damage control ever since until Frontiers broke him out of his rut. Much of that damage control has taken the form of making Sonic into a safe, Mickey Mouse-esque mascot without any edge to him. Then they did double damage control after the 2009-2013 Ken Penders lawsuits rocked the Archie comics, and they've slapped the IP with a million mandates that they've only been gradually repealing. The 2014-2018 range was right in the thick of that era, so 4 and Ultimate were probably subject to some regulations on what they could do with Sonic.

That said, since Frontiers they've been giving Sonic his edge back and let him be cool again, so they might have loosed up enough to let Sonic have be edgy and expressive again. Might. I'd certainly hope so, at least.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I mean we got Bayonetta before Dante, also Cuphead is more popular than Contra ever was, sorry to say.

Bayonetta is not an indie game. It was developed by the same person.

Also not sure where you got that Cuphead is "more popular than Contra ever was".

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I would have argued that Tails should be the 2nd Sonic character, but with how much Shadow has been pushed lately, and him being the most popular Sonic character after Sonic… it’s gotta be Shadow.

It’s really a shame how much Tails as a character has fallen off, even in the Sonic 2 movie he was overshadowed by Knuckles.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Sonic's reputation was in the dumps ever since Sonic '06 (Or hell, even Shadow '05) and Sega's been scrambling to do damage control ever since until Frontiers broke him out of his rut. Much of that damage control has taken the form of making Sonic into a safe, Mickey Mouse-esque mascot without any edge to him. Then they did double damage control after the 2009-2013 Ken Penders lawsuits rocked the Archie comics, and they've slapped the IP with a million mandates that they've only been gradually repealing. The 2014-2018 range was right in the thick of that era, so 4 and Ultimate were probably subject to some regulations on what they could do with Sonic.

That said, since Frontiers they've been giving Sonic his edge back and let him be cool again, so they might have loosed up enough to let Sonic have be edgy and expressive again. Might. I'd certainly hope so, at least.

Im so glad that between Sonic frontiers, Shadow Generations and Sonic movie 3 show that this franchise can be really cool.

I would have argued that Tails should be the 2nd Sonic character, but with how much Shadow has been pushed lately, and him being the most popular Sonic character after Sonic… it’s gotta be Shadow.

It’s really a shame how much Tails as a character has fallen off, even in the Sonic 2 movie he was overshadowed by Knuckles.

They even have a victory theme they can rip for Shadow

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Smash is usually good at addressing glaring issues with characters from game to game in terms of balance (clarifying here that I don't mean moves themselves). Meta Knight and Bayo come to mind as the best examples of busted one game and low to mid tier the next.

Sonic isn't usually seen as the best in Ultimate, but he is often considered a top tier who gets harder to react to the worse your connection is, so I think he'll be one of the first fighters they look at for changes. One could argue him being hated from 4 to Ultimate and not receiving much tlc is evidence it might happen again, I'd argue that shifting priorities and a growing resentment for both his playstyle and lame move pool will likely prompt some action from the devs.

Not entirely related, but Casino Nights or Death Egg Zone would make great stages. Green Hill is the essential stage, but I don't see the lost world level as likely to come back, though it depends on how the next game structures its stage count.

 

[SharkLord]

I would have argued that Tails should be the 2nd Sonic character, but with how much Shadow has been pushed lately, and him being the most popular Sonic character after Sonic… it’s gotta be Shadow.

It’s really a shame how much Tails as a character has fallen off, even in the Sonic 2 movie he was overshadowed by Knuckles.

Honestly, Tails and Knuckles both fell off after Heroes. The Adventure games gave them their own roles and stories, Heroes let them be part of the main hero team, but after that? Shadow '05 focused solely on Shadow, '06 pushed Sonic, Shadow, and Silver and pushed everyone else into the background, and after that Sega heavily de-emphasized anyone but Sonic. They at least get to be part of Team Sonic in stuff like Boom, Mania, Frontiers, and the movies, but they haven't had a truly leading role since the Adventure games, aside from arguably the Sonic Mania & Knuckles side mode in Mania. And even then, they're still second fiddle to Sonic in the marketing - Though, the second mvoie heavily pushed Knuckles as a powerful rival to Sonic. That was cool, at least. It'd be nice if he got his own game again.

Actually, Shadow's the only one to be pushed as a second main character to Sonic and actually have it stick. We already went over Tails and Knuckles. Blaze got to be his equal in the Rush games, but after '06 she became just another background character. Silver was set to be an equal to Sonic and Shadow, but his debut game bombed and after that he was just another part of the ensemble. Shadow doesn't always show up, but someone getting a starring role in any Sonic game who isn't Sonic himself is extremely lucky.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Smash is usually good at addressing glaring issues with characters from game to game in terms of balance (clarifying here that I don't mean moves themselves). Meta Knight and Bayo come to mind as the best examples of busted one game and low to mid tier the next.

Sonic isn't usually seen as the best in Ultimate, but he is often considered a top tier who gets harder to react to the worse your connection is, so I think he'll be one of the first fighters they look at for changes. One could argue him being hated from 4 to Ultimate and not receiving much tlc is evidence it might happen again, I'd argue that shifting priorities and a growing resentment for both his playstyle and lame move pool will likely prompt some action from the devs.

Not entirely related, but Casino Nights or Death Egg Zone would make great stages. Green Hill is the essential stage, but I don't see the lost world level as likely to come back, though it depends on how the next game structures its stage count.

I mean according to Ultimate's most recent tier list from about a week ago, Sonic is pretty firmly number 2 after Steve, so kinda hoping he gets some changes lol

I also just generally think Sonic is annoying to fight, so that doesn't help my opinion either lol

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Bayonetta is not an indie game. It was developed by the same person.

Also not sure where you got that Cuphead is "more popular than Contra ever was".

I don’t think whether they are indie or not really matters, being indie doesn’t make the game any less valid or impactful. Point is Bayonetta wouldn’t exist without Devil May Cry pioneering the 3D Hack & Slash genre, and the Bayonetta series is significantly less impactful and popular.

Cuphead alone has sold more copies than the entire Contra series, it got an award winning tv show, it has a lot more merchandise than Contra did in the past 38 years, and there are hundreds of Cuphead related videos online that get millions of views, some even garnering over 100 million views.

 

[SharkLord]

I mean according to Ultimate's most recent tier list from about a week ago, Sonic is pretty firmly number 2 after Steve, so kinda hoping he gets some changes lol

I also just generally think Sonic is annoying to fight, so that doesn't help my opinion either lol

I just think the GBA sprites are really cool because I was raised on Flash animations and I want Sonic to be animated like that and not the strange awkward animations he has now.

 

[RileyXY1]

Another reason why I think Tails will get the spot is because of Smash's past tendencies. Smash has usually tended to give sidekicks higher priority than villain or rival characters. In Smash 64 Luigi was given the spot as Mario's 2nd rep over Bowser, who had to wait until Melee to get in. Falco got in Melee over Wolf as Fox's clone. Wolf was added to Brawl at the tail end of development and got cut in Smash 4 while Falco remained. In Brawl Diddy Kong was added as DK's second rep over King K. Rool, who needed fan demand to get into Ultimate. In fact, villain/rival characters as a whole are usually very low priority. Ridley and King K. Rool only got in due to fan demand, Ganondorf, Dark Pit, and Dark Samus were all added as clones, Bowser Jr. came close to being cut from Smash 4 entirely, and Wolf was added at the very end of development and was cut from the next game.

 

[Pupp135]

If another Sonic character joins the fight, which one would you prefer?
Metal Sonic, Shadow, Eggman, Knuckles, Amy Tails, Silver, or any other character? (Sorry to not be rude, but there are so many Sonic characters to list.)

I liked playing as Amy in Sonic the Fighters and Super Smash Flash 2/Super Smash Bros Crusade mods. Also, I love the modded alt in Ultimate for Ice Climbers where Classic Amy is the main climber, and Classic Sonic is the partner.

From the more realistic choices, I think Knuckles would be the most interesting of the four.

 

[mynameisBlade]

I'd be fine between Shadow or Eggman, but I still predict Shadow as the more likely Sonic character to become a playable character for the next Smash.

Let's get Tails in there finally! He is Sonic's Luigi.. Then a Shadow Echo would be nice. Just change a few animations like the Up-B to be similar to Mewtwo where he'd use the Chaos Emerald to teleport. Honestly, I hope Sonic's whole move set gets changed assuming he's even in the next game. Sonic's move translation into Smash is probably THE WORST out of any character..and Shadow can be an Echo of whatever the changes are.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I just think the GBA sprites are really cool because I was raised on Flash animations and I want Sonic to be animated like that and not the strange awkward animations he has now.

I just think Sonic should have a new side or down special that's not just a second Spin Dash that looks exactly the same with slightly different properties, probably side special, and for him to be made weaker since he's designed to be the fastest character on the roster. His initial dash isn't the fastest but his run speed dwarves anyone else on the roster (3.85 to Falcon's 2.55 in second place) but considering he has so much speed to easily escape situations or camp out his moves do shockingly normal damage lol

 

[BrawlX10]

Also, I think Miis and ATs are the appropriate level of representation for indie characters.

Idk, man....i think Sans could def be playable at this point, he's got enough merits.

I don't want to invalidate anyone's feelings but...i don't really get the "it's better to not have indies playable" mindset.
If a game is popular,has a fanbase...etc...why does it matter if it's indie or not? Cuphead is no less of a franchise just because it's indie, of course i can understand very niche indies not getting a character, but stuff like Hades, Undertale, Hollow Knight, Gunvolt, Shovel Knight...etc, it's definitely fair game, it's not like they're some random steam game no one knows about.

 

[ninjahmos]

Not entirely related, but Casino Nights or Death Egg Zone would make great stages. Green Hill is the essential stage, but I don't see the lost world level as likely to come back, though it depends on how the next game structures its stage count.

I've been saying this for awhile, but I would love to see Casino Night Zone as a stage in Smash. And Flying Battery Zone.

Also, if we're talking about a space stage for Sonic in Smash, the Space Colony ARK wouldn't hurt. In fact, it'd be even better if it came along with Shadow.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Another reason why I think Tails will get the spot is because of Smash's past tendencies. Smash has usually tended to give sidekicks higher priority than villain or rival characters. In Smash 64 Luigi was given the spot as Mario's 2nd rep over Bowser, who had to wait until Melee to get in. Falco got in Melee over Wolf as Fox's clone. Wolf was added to Brawl at the tail end of development and got cut in Smash 4 while Falco remained. In Brawl Diddy Kong was added as DK's second rep over King K. Rool, who needed fan demand to get into Ultimate. In fact, villain/rival characters as a whole are usually very low priority. Ridley and King K. Rool only got in due to fan demand, Ganondorf, Dark Pit, and Dark Samus were all added as clones, Bowser Jr. came close to being cut from Smash 4 entirely, and Wolf was added at the very end of development and was cut from the next game.

counterpoint:

He is him

 

[Opossum]

Also not sure where you got that Cuphead is "more popular than Contra ever was".

I mean...

The first six Contra games (three mainline, three spin-offs, up to Hard Corps), which was the era where the IP was by far the most popular, had a combined sales total of about 4 million units. Cuphead sold six million units before even getting ported to the PS4. Contra has a strong legacy, but it's incredibly easy to see that Cuphead is demonstrably more popular.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm gonna quote an earlier post of mine:

I'm still kind of hoping that if Sonic gets a moveset rework, they keep Spin Dash as his Down B but change his Side B to Light Speed Dash from Sonic Adventure.

It probably won't happen, but I'm saying it'd still be pretty cool.

 

[LimeTH]

If I could change one thing about Sonic's moveset and nothing else, it'd be that damn side special. It's not just identical visually to the down special but with all the cool effects taken out, but it's objectively a worse move in every way if not flat out useless. It sucks for recovery because it suddenly pops you downwards, it sucks as a direct attack because it suddenly hops right over the opponent, it's a **** move and I hate it. At LEAST slap the Fox Illusion onto him and call it the Light Speed Dash.

 

[SharkLord]

counterpoint:

He is him

yeah, it's worth noting that I don't think many games in Smash have an anti-hero rival who's just that popular compared to the heroes' supporting cast. I think Bayonetta and Joker have some rivals? But more Bayo and Persona reps are rarely discussed for Smash. Mega Man has a couple rivals in Proto Man and Bass, but most people look to other subseries entirely for X and Zero. And Ryu... Actually no, we did get his rival. Not really an anti-hero, but definitely a rival. Pokemon does have rivals, but I don't think they're gonna make three whole Pokemon just to justify Blue being there. And after that... Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone else.

 

[Dukefire]

Miis are Nintendo's avatar for the player. As the boxing ring title says "Brawler/Swordsfighter/Gunner of Many Faces". So, they are more of a blank canvas for us to paint their face.

 

[Idon]

Another reason why I think Tails will get the spot is because of Smash's past tendencies. Smash has usually tended to give sidekicks higher priority than villain or rival characters. In Smash 64 Luigi was given the spot as Mario's 2nd rep over Bowser, who had to wait until Melee to get in. Falco got in Melee over Wolf as Fox's clone. Wolf was added to Brawl at the tail end of development and got cut in Smash 4 while Falco remained. In Brawl Diddy Kong was added as DK's second rep over King K. Rool, who needed fan demand to get into Ultimate. In fact, villain/rival characters as a whole are usually very low priority. Ridley and King K. Rool only got in due to fan demand, Ganondorf, Dark Pit, and Dark Samus were all added as clones, Bowser Jr. came close to being cut from Smash 4 entirely, and Wolf was added at the very end of development and was cut from the next game.

These are all very different circumstances as compared to a popular 3rd Party character:
Luigi and Falco were originally much more similar clones before being made more unique.
Wolf was a very clumsily animated character compared to the Smash standard as he was a last-minute addition which means it makes more sense to port Falco than him.
Diddy Kong is significantly more iconic and representative of the DK series than K Rool, just straight up.
Even Sheik and Zero Suit Samus exist only to fulfill the transformation gimmick before they were given proper standaloneness.


I think these should all be given consideration outside a blanket "yeah but smash goes for side characters first" when our only
ONLY fully unique, fully standalone, 3rd Party second newcomer who comes with the entire gamut of stage, music, even a damn unique victory screen mechanic is this guy:

which I think is a significantly stronger signifier of what Nintendo/Sakurai see in value for 3rd Party headliners.
In terms of what people would actually purchase and in terms of what Sega markets, they clearly put Shadow on a higher hype pedestal than Tails.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Persona reps are rarely discussed for Smash

My prediction is that it’s either Joker again or he gets replaced by either Makoto Yuki from Persona 3 or the Persona 6 Protagonist when DLC happens.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Re: Sonic

If SEGA has mandates on victory music being from the games, at least change it from 06’s to Generations’ stage clear theme.

Shadow is very popular. I think he’s the best bet to get in as another Sonic character.

To be fair, I think Shadow as a new playable character, Knuckles and Tails as AT’s, and Eggman as a boss does provide a good lineup for the next Smash game, and improves Sonic’s lineup tenfold.

 

[Dukefire]

Forgive me, but with Shadow being the current topic for today.....I can't help it.

 

[RodNutTakin]

My prediction is that it’s either Joker again or he gets replaced by either Makoto Yuki from Persona 3 or the Persona 6 Protagonist when DLC happens.

or Will from Metaphor

 

[RileyXY1]

Although I think it's more likely that they go for a new franchise from Sega over giving Sonic another rep.

 

[Perkilator]

Persona reps are rarely discussed for Smash.

On that note, I think Aigis would make sense as a Persona 3 rep, especially considering she has an entire fighting game to pull moves from.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

My prediction is that it’s either Joker again or he gets replaced by either Makoto Yuki from Persona 3 or the Persona 6 Protagonist when DLC happens.

I think the reason Persona reps are rarely discussed is because they kinda branded the entire Persona representation in Smash as specifically P5.

 

[PlasmaDam]

I think we are getting a Gen 9 pokemon in the next Smash but what makes people so sure it meowscarada? I remember people being so sure that decidueye was gonna be the starter they went with and they chose incineroar

 

[Wonder Smash]

I don’t think whether they are indie or not really matters, being indie doesn’t make the game any less valid or impactful. Point is Bayonetta wouldn’t exist without Devil May Cry pioneering the 3D Hack & Slash genre, and the Bayonetta series is significantly less impactful and popular.

Cuphead alone has sold more copies than the entire Contra series, it got an award winning tv show, it has a lot more merchandise than Contra did in the past 38 years, and there are hundreds of Cuphead related videos online that get millions of views, some even garnering over 100 million views.

It actually does matter. They both had the same developers and Bayonetta is not an indie. They're basically like brother and sister series.

That's just proof of its popularity but not more than Contra's.

 

[ninjahmos]

I've said this before, and it probably won't happen, but I still think Demi-Fiend would be a pretty cool SMT rep, especially if they included Fierce Battle.

Or, if they really wanted to, they could add in this lil' guy:

After all, he is practically the mascot.

 

[Dukefire]

More to point that Bayonetta was made from Devil May Cry's creator. Even though it is an easter egg reference.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I think we are getting a Gen 9 pokemon in the next Smash but what makes people so sure it meowscarada? I remember people being so sure that decidueye was gonna be the starter they went with and they chose incineroar

Maybe speculators are just assuming that there is a type pattern like how Smash 4 had a water starter while Ultimate had a fire starter.

Skeledirge is my pick if it’s a starter from Gen 9.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

My prediction is that it’s either Joker again or he gets replaced by either Makoto Yuki from Persona 3 or the Persona 6 Protagonist when DLC happens.

I really don't like the word replace when it comes to characters lol

P5 is still really big for Atlus, I have no reason to believe that if we get a second Persona character, Joker wouldn't just come back anyway. Like if you're gonna ask for another one anyway, you might as well ALSO get the veteran Persona character back, like what's the sense in not doing that lol

The main thing about Persona for me is that the Persona icon in Smash right now is the Phantom Thieves' insignia, so would they change the series icon to be more general or give a P3 character a unique icon?