Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Opossum]

Smash has never cared about canonical sizes

The entire point of Scream Tail is that it's Jigglypuff But Monstrous. Before Raging Bolt it was the only Paradox Pokémon with that much of a size difference between the it and the Pokémon it's based on. Unlike, say, Ridley, where size wasn't his defining feature, Scream Tail is more like Kraid where it is its defining feature. Well, one of its two, the other of which is also a problem.

I dunno. The tail doesn't really animate much, so implimenting it would be as simple as tweaking the model a bit and adding hair physics.

It's an entire separate appendage that takes up a good portion of the design. None of the current echo fighters have THAT much of a hitbox disparity. The furthest they go is...Dark Samus floating slightly off the ground. Sakurai, who is on record stating that he doesn't like when the hitboxes don't match the model, wouldn't make a giant extra appendage unable to be hit and still call the character an echo fighter.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I have reservations about Alear (and Meowscarada by extension) that really boil down to "the character is on a time limit"

Like there's no guarantee they're going to be the hot new thing by the time the next Smash rolls around (which may be sooner than I think, but still)

Assuming the roster was selected in 2012, a Gen 9 Pokémon is the only option, and Alear has missed the boat, being too late for base and too early for DLC.

Assuming it's later...Gen 9 is still a safe bet, as Gen 10 likely isn't coming out until the year before, during, or after the year Smash releases, which cuts it a bit too close I think. Depending on how later the roster is selected, Alear could have a decent shot, though I think it would depend on how interesting Sakurai finds the Engage mechanic.

 

[RileyXY1]

The entire point of Scream Tail is that it's Jigglypuff But Monstrous. Before Raging Bolt it was the only Paradox Pokémon with that much of a size difference between the it and the Pokémon it's based on. Unlike, say, Ridley, where size wasn't his defining feature, Scream Tail is more like Kraid where it is its defining feature. Well, one of its two, the other of which is also a problem.



It's an entire separate appendage that takes up a good portion of the design. None of the current echo fighters have THAT much of a hitbox disparity. The furthest they go is...Dark Samus floating slightly off the ground. Sakurai, who is on record stating that he doesn't like when the hitboxes don't match the model, wouldn't make a giant extra appendage unable to be hit and still call the character an echo fighter.

And that ended up being the whole reason why Isabelle wasn't classified as an Echo Fighter. The proportions just didn't match up due to New Leaf completely changing how the characters are designed to make the game look less "chibi" by making the characters taller and giving them longer limbs. If they wanted to make Isabelle an Echo, they would have either had to redesign her in the style of the old AC games (which wouldn't be representative of the character as she never appeared in them), or they would have to use Villager's New Leaf design instead.

 

[Dee Dude]

The thing with Alear is that their reception shouldn't be as bad as with other FE newcomers. My reasoning:

The timing with both Corrin and Byleth was legit awful. Fates wasn't even out outside Japan so Western fans couldn't even be excited for Corrin. Three Houses was still recent, but people were clamoring more for Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude (all great characters) so there was obvious disappointment when the safest choice of the Avatar with no personality was picked. Not to mention, Corrin came out after the one-two punch of Ryu and Cloud and Byleth after the 4-Hit Combo of Joker, Hero, Banjo-Kazooie and Terry. It's no surprise people were let down after a streak like that (and it will never not be funny how people were more hyped by the Cuphead Mii outfit than Byleth themselves).

If Alear is in, they'll most definitely be on base roster and announced between characters that are mostly expected, like Octoling and Ring Fit Trainee, so the hype levels shouldn't be as high as with the previous games' DLC run. It also helps that I feel most people have gotten used to the idea that Alear MIGHT be in, so it won't be too out of the blue like it was with Corrin and Byleth.

People (me included) would’ve still hated regardless if Fates released in the west at the time, you need to remember Fire Emblem in Smash 4 was already getting enough flack when it already give us two new additions on top of bringing back with brought it down to 5 so and with Corrin’s reveal, FE had a total of SIX slots, FOUR CHARACTERS ADDED and THREE NEWCOMERS in one game, even if you’re a fan of the series, that was absolutely ridiculous, just imagine how livid DK and Metroid fans were at the time and rightfully so.

isn’t the worst addition to Smash, not by a long shot, Byleth was only received negatively by the western base soley by the notion of being an “8th Fire Emblem character” and ending off a pass of mainly 3rd parties, Byleth’s hatred was more about timing and infamy of a series instead of the character’s actual merits.

The only way Alear won’t get massive backlash like these two is if they substantially cut down FE’s roster to 2-3.

The next reaction aside from another FE rep joining the fight. "Another Anime Swordman fighter", which Byleth's trailer did poke at that comment from people.

Apparently from what I’ve heard, the “too many swordsman” line was entirely localized, it was never an intended jab from Sakurai or the dev team.

In the JP version, Sothes just says something like “what are you gonna do about being beaten up, you're a man aren't you?"

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Assuming the roster was selected in 2012

Wow if the game's been in development for over a decade I wonder how many characters they'll be able to fit in??? It might feel a bit outdated though...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Apparently from what I’ve heard, the “too many swordsman” line was entirely localized, it was never an intended jab from Sakurai or the dev team.

In the JP version, Sothes just says something like “what are you gonna do about being beaten up, you're a man aren't you?"

The JP version of this scene is infinitely funnier.

 

[Dukefire]

The JP version of this scene is infinitely funnier.

Ok......didn't see the JP version of the trailer. But what a way to bring in the female variant of byleth.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's an entire separate appendage that takes up a good portion of the design. None of the current echo fighters have THAT much of a hitbox disparity. The furthest they go is...Dark Samus floating slightly off the ground. Sakurai, who is on record stating that he doesn't like when the hitboxes don't match the model, wouldn't make a giant extra appendage unable to be hit and still call the character an echo fighter.

If we're already making it bigger I don't think it matters that much since being a much bigger target is already part of the deal. The main concerns would be making sure up tilt and up air don't have a negative disjoint, but I think that falls within the workload of an Echo Fighter.

And that ended up being the whole reason why Isabelle wasn't classified as an Echo Fighter. The proportions just didn't match up due to New Leaf completely changing how the characters are designed to make the game look less "chibi" by making the characters taller and giving them longer limbs. If they wanted to make Isabelle an Echo, they would have either had to redesign her in the style of the old AC games (which wouldn't be representative of the character as she never appeared in them), or they would have to use Villager's New Leaf design instead.

Yes but keep in mind Scream Tail's proportions are the same as Jigglypuff's, it's just larger all around. Like, take the scale tool to a Jigglypuff, make it the same size as Mario, and boom, you've got a Scream Tail.




All this aside, I do think that Scream Tail is highly unlikely simply due the fact that no-one asked for it. I mean, a couple people here like the idea because "why not?", but otherwise nobody really cares. Echo Fighters have all been either highly requested characters that couldn't otherwise be added, or a character of similar impact that goes with their base fighter (i.e. Ken being a popular Street Fighter character with Ryu's moveset and Richter being the Belmont that Japanese fans like more). Scream Tail just doesn't fit those categories. That's not to say they wouldn't ever add something like it, (Dr. Mario exists after all) but it's still a pretty low likelihood.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If we're already making it bigger I don't think it matters that much since being a much bigger target is already part of the deal. The main concerns would be making sure up tilt and up air don't have a negative disjoint, but I think that falls within the workload of an Echo Fighter.


Yes but keep in mind Scream Tail's proportions are the same as Jigglypuff's, it's just larger all around. Like, take the scale tool to a Jigglypuff, make it the same size as Mario, and boom, you've got a Scream Tail.




All this aside, I do think that Scream Tail is highly unlikely simply due the fact that no-one asked for it. I mean, a couple people here like the idea because "why not?", but otherwise nobody really cares. Echo Fighters have all been either highly requested characters that couldn't otherwise be added, or a character of similar impact that goes with their base fighter (i.e. Ken being a popular Street Fighter character with Ryu's moveset and Richter being the Belmont that Japanese fans like more). Scream Tail just doesn't fit those categories. That's not to say they wouldn't ever add something like it, (Dr. Mario exists after all) but it's still a pretty low likelihood.

It just feels like something the smash devs would look at and go "why not" and put it in without thinking too hard on it

 

[Gengar84]

One thing that makes me less confident in Scream Tail is the fact that Sakurai cut Pichu and only brought it back for Ultimate because it was part of “Everyone is Here”. Scream Tail seems like the same type of character but in reverse, being a slower and stronger version of Jigglypuff like Ganondorf was to Falcon.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

One thing that makes me less confident in Scream Tail is the fact that Sakurai cut Pichu and only brought it back for Ultimate because it was part of “Everyone is Here”. Scream Tail seems like the same type of character but in reverse, being a slower and stronger version of Jigglypuff like Ganondorf was to Falcon.

I think Scream Tail would be more comparable to Dr. Mario in that case, though he was also cut in Brawl.

Really though, it would just be an easy, but low-priority add, and considering its attached to another easy, but low-priority add...

 

[Ivander]

The thing with Alear is that their reception shouldn't be as bad as with other FE newcomers. My reasoning:

The timing with both Corrin and Byleth was legit awful. Fates wasn't even out outside Japan so Western fans couldn't even be excited for Corrin. Three Houses was still recent, but people were clamoring more for Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude (all great characters) so there was obvious disappointment when the safest choice of the Avatar with no personality was picked. Not to mention, Corrin came out after the one-two punch of Ryu and Cloud and Byleth after the 4-Hit Combo of Joker, Hero, Banjo-Kazooie and Terry. It's no surprise people were let down after a streak like that (and it will never not be funny how people were more hyped by the Cuphead Mii outfit than Byleth themselves).

If Alear is in, they'll most definitely be on base roster and announced between characters that are mostly expected, like Octoling and Ring Fit Trainee, so the hype levels shouldn't be as high as with the previous games' DLC run. It also helps that I feel most people have gotten used to the idea that Alear MIGHT be in, so it won't be too out of the blue like it was with Corrin and Byleth.

Some people keep saying that, but if this poll is possibly anything to go by, it's that Byleth was just as wanted, possibly even more.

Anyway, it'd probably help Alear if they also had a more Smash-centered trailer than just an alteration of one of the cutscenes from their game. Corrin's had cute moments, but second time didn't work anywhere as well with Byleth's. Meanwhile, Robin and Lucina's is still pretty memorable with that duel with Captain Falcon.

And let's also be honest, Capcom undoubtedly played a role in the backlash for Byleth, with deciding to do DMC3 hyping just before the trailer.

 

[Gengar84]

Some people keep saying that, but if this poll is possibly anything to go by, it's that Byleth was just as wanted, possibly even more.

Anyway, it'd probably help Alear if they also had a more Smash-centered trailer than just an alteration of one of the cutscenes from their game. Corrin's had cute moments, but second time didn't work anywhere as well with Byleth's. Meanwhile, Robin and Lucina's is still pretty memorable with that duel with Captain Falcon.

And let's also be honest, Capcom undoubtedly played a role in the backlash for Byleth, with deciding to do DMC3 hyping just before the trailer.

Looking at these poll results reminds me just how much my personal tastes differ from the Smash fandom at large lol. I was extremely hyped to see Sephiroth in Ultimate but most of these others would get a “yeah, that makes sense.” reaction from me rather than being truly hyped.

 

[Perkilator]

Re: Alear

Don’t forget, Engage was supposed to release in 2020 for FE’s 30th anniversary, but that fell through because of COVID and so IntSys held onto the game for a couple years. It’s possible that Sakurai at least got a look of what Alear is like during that time, since he played an early version of Three Hosues for Byleth’s moveset.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Some people keep saying that, but if this poll is possibly anything to go by, it's that Byleth was just as wanted, possibly even more.

Anyway, it'd probably help Alear if they also had a more Smash-centered trailer than just an alteration of one of the cutscenes from their game. Corrin's had cute moments, but second time didn't work anywhere as well with Byleth's. Meanwhile, Robin and Lucina's is still pretty memorable with that duel with Captain Falcon.

And let's also be honest, Capcom undoubtedly played a role in the backlash for Byleth, with deciding to do DMC3 hyping just before the trailer.

Lloyd was number one in Japan.

AND NOBODY TOLD ME?!?!

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Lloyd was number one in Japan.

AND NOBODY TOLD ME?!?!

For context, this was just a list of who was mentioned on Twitter in response to the "more DLC in development" announcement after Terry.

Not a legit polling.

 

[fogbadge]

Hey wasn’t there some talk about Ubisoft being in trouble? I’ve heard they’re closing their uk branch

 

[Ivander]

For context, this was just a list of who was mentioned on Twitter in response to the "more DLC in development" announcement after Terry.

Not a legit polling.

Yeah, it wasn't a legit poll, but basically the maker went to just about every Official Nintendo tweet involving Smash announcements and looked at which characters were mentioned the most in each Tweet's replies and then combined them overall(whether they counted the same users is unknown). Sora was overall mentioned the most by people of all three areas, though apparently Lloyd was mentioned the most by Japanese users.

 

[ninjahmos]

Smash has never cared about canonical sizes

I'm guessing characters such as Olimar and Ridley are proof of that.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Sora was overall mentioned the most by people of all three areas,

It's interesting to think about how sora never graces hardcore or even enthusiast smash speculation due to perceived challenges around getting his rights (not that it wasn't a legit concern to sakurai until that chance meeting with Disney), but most likely prevailed very hard with casual fans that wouldn't think nor care about roadblocks to getting their favorite character.

Though I've seen that regional top ten get posted many times throughout the years with different edited lineups and still get treated as fact. I'm taking the rankings with a grain of salt (especially since we know full well there's a hint of bias in any poll with heavy in it lmao)

 

[Speed Weed]

Some people keep saying that, but if this poll is possibly anything to go by, it's that Byleth was just as wanted, possibly even more.

Anyway, it'd probably help Alear if they also had a more Smash-centered trailer than just an alteration of one of the cutscenes from their game. Corrin's had cute moments, but second time didn't work anywhere as well with Byleth's. Meanwhile, Robin and Lucina's is still pretty memorable with that duel with Captain Falcon.

And let's also be honest, Capcom undoubtedly played a role in the backlash for Byleth, with deciding to do DMC3 hyping just before the trailer.

I could have sworn this poll was fake but apparently according to others here it was just handled weirdly? Huh

 

[Dukefire]

I could have sworn this poll was fake but apparently according to others here it was just handled weirdly? Huh

That poll is years old. People's wishes will be reorganized again after some characters became a fighter or getting a constellation prize as a Mii Costume and/or Spirit. If not, those that are potentially cut for the next game will make room for more.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I could have sworn this poll was fake but apparently according to others here it was just handled weirdly? Huh

You're thinking of the one with Saber.

This one, like I said, wasn't actually a poll:

For context, this was just a list of who was mentioned on Twitter in response to the "more DLC in development" announcement after Terry.

Not a legit polling.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Some people keep saying that, but if this poll is possibly anything to go by, it's that Byleth was just as wanted, possibly even more.

And let's also be honest, Capcom undoubtedly played a role in the backlash for Byleth, with deciding to do DMC3 hyping just before the trailer.

It is really funny in retrospect that there were a bunch of corporations hyping up the fifth Challenger pack, none knowing Nintendo was gonna do a promo pick instead of bringing in Master Chief or smt.

I wonder how a modern list of this kind would look, beyond Waluigi shooting to the top again. It's crazy seeing bombshell character drops like Sephiroth at #8 and Steve and Byleth tied at #5 in their respective regions.

 

[Ivander]

I could have sworn this poll was fake but apparently according to others here it was just handled weirdly? Huh

Basically, instead of having people vote their most wanted, the person went around for which characters were mentioned most across Nintendo Twitter & Smash announcements and tallied the amount of times they were mentioned and which users had mentioned them instead.

Also, how you feeling today? Is your heart doing alright?

 

[Gengar84]

Basically, instead of having people vote their most wanted, the person went around for which characters were mentioned most across Nintendo Twitter & Smash announcements and tallied the amount of times they were mentioned and which users had mentioned them instead.

Also, how you feeling today? Is your heart doing alright?

So what you’re telling me is that I just have to talk about my most wanted characters way more often. Understood.

On a more serious note, I hope you’re doing okay Speed Weed.

 

[Speed Weed]

You're thinking of the one with Saber.

Yeah, I clocked that eventually while I was away. It's been so long, these polls all get mixed up in my head.

Also, how you feeling today? Is your heart doing alright?

....Could you be mixing me up with someone else? I'm fine, I never talked about any heart issues here or elsewhere

 

[Jave]

Anyway, it'd probably help Alear if they also had a more Smash-centered trailer than just an alteration of one of the cutscenes from their game. Corrin's had cute moments, but second time didn't work anywhere as well with Byleth's. Meanwhile, Robin and Lucina's is still pretty memorable with that duel with Captain Falcon.

I stand by my prediction that a potential Alear trailer will start like this:

 

[Gengar84]

So Engage is the first mainline Fire Emblem game I haven’t played since Path of Radiance. I know it has a summoning gimmick that lets you call upon spectral versions of past characters but people don’t seem too fond of that as a Smash moveset. If you put that aside, how does Alear fight in the game? Do they have an interesting moveset that could help them stand out from the other Fire Emblem characters without the summoning gimmick?

 

[Zerp]

Solution for Scream Tail: Make the tail a hurtbox but in exchange she can use it for b-air so we get an even longer b-air than in Melee.

 

[Perkilator]

So Engage is the first mainline Fire Emblem game I haven’t played since Path of Radiance. I know it has a summoning gimmick that lets you call upon spectral versions of past characters but people don’t seem too fond of that as a Smash moveset. If you put that aside, how does Alear fight in the game? Do they have an interesting moveset that could help them stand out from the other Fire Emblem characters without the summoning gimmick?

Yeah. Alongside their basic swordfighter style, they also gain access to martial arts upon promoting. So with that, you can give Alear a mix of sword attacks and martial arts attack alongside the Engage mechanic. Speaking of which, I think the Engage mechanic is best suited to use the Emblem versions of FE characters who aren't playable in Smash (like Celica and Sigurd).

 

[Ivander]

....Could you be mixing me up with someone else? I'm fine, I never talked about any heart issues here or elsewhere

No, I just know about a rumor today that a notable Dreamcast/Gamecube RPG from Sega has gotten a new trademark. Sure, trademarks being renewed is nothing new, but with Sega lately bringing back their old IPs, the possibility of that Dreamcast/Gamecube RPG getting a remaster or remake is not as unlikely as it was back then. So I just wanted to make sure your heart was alright if you had seen that rumor.

On a more serious note, I hope you’re doing okay Speed Weed.

I wasn't that serious about that. See my explanation above.

 

[The Prankster 16]

Yeah. Alongside their basic swordfighter style, they also gain access to martial arts upon promoting. So with that, you can give Alear a mix of sword attacks and martial arts attack alongside the Engage mechanic. Speaking of which, I think the Engage mechanic is best suited to use the Emblem versions of FE characters who aren't playable in Smash (like Celica and Sigurd).

I mean if some rumors are correct, that Fe4 remake could give Sigurd a higher chance of becoming playable. Especially since it's supposedly been in development for as long as Engage was.

 

[Golden Icarus]

If Fire Emblem Engage is indeed the most relevant FE at the time of Sakurai deciding Smash 6’s roster, then I hope he would use it as justification to consider adding a classic character. Even though it’s a mainline game, the way it took full advantage of including legacy characters in its core gameplay mechanic is probably the most memorable thing about it. Engage was the most recent of many games taking advantage of Fire Emblem nostalgia, following up Echoes, Warriors, Heroes and Three Hopes. I don’t say this as a knock against Engage, but it does feel like the culmination of a certain era of FE games.

I could still see Sakurai wanting to include the game’s main lord, but I feel like it’s a particularly prime time to really consider going back for Lyn, Micaiah, Edelgard, etc. It’s reasonable to expect Sakurai to want to add the most recent thing with Fire Emblem like he always does, but there’s never been an entire line of spin-off entries that emphasize classic characters before.

 

[Gengar84]

No, I just know about a rumor today that a notable Dreamcast/Gamecube RPG from Sega has gotten a new trademark. Sure, trademarks being renewed is nothing new, but with Sega lately bringing back their old IPs, the possibility of that Dreamcast/Gamecube RPG getting a remaster or remake is not as unlikely as it was back then. So I just wanted to make sure your heart was alright if you had seen that rumor.

I wasn't that serious about that. See my explanation above.

Ah, gotcha. I was a bit confused since that was the first I’d ever heard of that. I think I know what RPG you’re referring to even without seeing the news. There’s only one RPG I can think of that was prominent on both the Dreamcast and GameCube and it’s one I never really got the chance to play.

 

[Jave]

So Engage is the first mainline Fire Emblem game I haven’t played since Path of Radiance. I know it has a summoning gimmick that lets you call upon spectral versions of past characters but people don’t seem too fond of that as a Smash moveset. If you put that aside, how does Alear fight in the game? Do they have an interesting moveset that could help them stand out from the other Fire Emblem characters without the summoning gimmick?

The only reason people aren't too fond of the Emblem/Engage mechanic is because it essentially deconfirms a character if it's used as such in Smash, but I do think it's a good way to give some representation to earlier FE games that missed the boat on Smash (And let's be fair, the chance of them going back and adding any pre-Engage character is very low).

As mentioned, Alear gets Martial Arts on promotion so combining that with swordfighting could definitely lead to an interesting moveset. Honestly I feel moveset potential is the least of Alear's issues.

 

[Royaru]

Not only did Engage bring back classic characters, but with Heroes many of the most well-known protagonists are much more relevant than they were a few years ago.
Lyn for example has had 9 alts, Edelgard 8 alts, Micaiah 7 alts, Eirika 8, Hector 7 alts etc.
Even the original Heroes characters themselves tend to be quite popular. I'd say the competition for the "Required FE Character" spot is more complex and tougher than in any other Smash.

 

[BuckleyTim]

See, this is why we need a fire emblem take on Soul Caliber

 

[Gengar84]

See, this is why we need a fire emblem take on Soul Caliber

As in a Soul Calibur game that plays like Fire Emblem or a Fire Emblem game that plays like Soul Calibur? Both could be cool.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Scream Tail does seem kinda like a free addition given the similarities to Puff. Mix in a couple of Tail moves with the Puff classics and the echo slot kinda makes itself. Some have already mentioned it but I think the inclusion depends on the timeframe the next Smash is developed in. 2022 would be rather appropriate to include something Gen 9, but there could be intentional room left open for a Gen 10 rep in the same way Smash got early looksies at some prior gen designs to decide who to include.