Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Diddy Kong]

I feel like it's guaranteed that not all of them are going to return and especially how controversial the series can be in this community. Roy, Chrom and Corrin feel the most expendable. Chrom is popular but he feels like a package deal with Roy who doesn't seem that likely to return.

Chrom can very well be a Echo to Lucina and Lucina getting reworked herself. I could see them go for a more canon move set for Lucina and Chrom honestly. I don't really think it all has to be dependant on Roy returning. I think Chrom just happened to be easily realisable due to his model being in already, and Roy making it back. I suspect these two getting more attention next time.

Or not of course. As Lucina being a simple Echo to Marth seems to fit and she's more popular...

I really don't know.

 

[Ivander]

I don't think it's impossible for Echo characters to get new moves. Luigi, Falco, Roy and eventually Ganondorf would get some new moves after their initial debut to differentiate themselves from Mario, Fox, Marth and Captain Falcon. And Lucina, Chrom, Dark Pit and Dark Samus certainly have enough material to get some new moves of their own. What really matters is if Sakurai thinks making them different from Marth, Roy, Pit and Samus is worth the extra development or not.

 

[Louie G.]

I think maybe someone like Daisy will be further differentiated from Peach, she seems like a good candidate for a progressive Luigification, but Lucina will almost certainly stay mostly the same on purpose. She’s the one echo other than Ken whose slight changes shake up her gameplay in a really significant way. Marth’s specialized design means removing tipper transforms Lucina into practically a different archetype altogether.

Being able to create a starkly different playstyle with such relatively little effort is kind of why she’ll always be the most efficient and important echo fighter. Decloning her feels really unnecessary and almost counterintuitive with that in mind.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I think maybe someone like Daisy will be further differentiated from Peach, she seems like a good candidate for a progressive Luigification

Just weird that they made her almost completely identical in the first place.

Other echoes have at least one major difference but she is weirdly the exception. Even Richter has different with his down b despite it not mattering outside of a few match ups.

 

[Garteam]

I know this thread isn't a monolith, but it is kind of funny how our attitude on cuts seems to change on a day-to-day basis.

A couple of weeks ago, people were hesitant at the idea of cutting Greninja or Incineroar. Now, we're seriously humouring if Jigglypuff and Ness could be cut. I guess it just goes to show how different everyone's vision is for this game.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think maybe someone like Daisy will be further differentiated from Peach, she seems like a good candidate for a progressive Luigification, but Lucina will almost certainly stay mostly the same on purpose. She’s the one echo other than Ken whose slight changes shake up her gameplay in a really significant way. Marth’s specialized design means removing tipper transforms Lucina into practically a different archetype altogether.

Being able to create a starkly different playstyle with such relatively little effort is kind of why she’ll always be the most efficient and important echo fighter. Decloning her feels really unnecessary and almost counterintuitive with that in mind.

There's also Wonder that brought Daisy back to the main series for the first time in years so Daisy might get some new moves added to rep that game.

 

[Gengar84]

I know this thread isn't a monolith, but it is kind of funny how our attitude on cuts seems to change on a day-to-day basis.

A couple of weeks ago, people were hesitant at the idea of cutting Greninja or Incineroar. Now, we're seriously humouring if Jigglypuff and Ness could be cut. I guess it just goes to show how different everyone's vision is for this game.

I’m still on the side of not wanting to cut anyone if we can avoid it but I realize that might not be possible. If we need to make cuts either way, I feel like Greninja is more popular and pushed than Jigglypuff these days so that was my logic in prioritizing it. Jigglypuff has been my brother’s main since 64 so I’d much rather not cut it but it seems like it’s going to happen sooner or later. I definitely don’t think we should cut Ness though but I did cut Lucas. Earthbound is a very beloved game within smaller circles so we shouldn’t eliminate its presence entirely. Lucas is still Japanese exclusive and has already been cut before in Smash 4 so cutting him again seemed logical.

 

[Amornal1]

They're completely different series. I don't think this comparison is necessary.

I was talking about the fact that they're both from the same company.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Smash isn’t and never has been about simply promoting what they can sell to you at that given point in time and the strange fixation from some fans for it to become this is baffling.

the fans that fixate on this actually happening

 

[Perkilator]

Smash isn’t and never has been about simply promoting what they can sell to you at that given point in time and the strange fixation from some fans for it to become this is baffling.

This, so much. This is such an anti-art mindset that I’m genuinely baffled by how many Smash fans unironically cling to this mindset.

 

[Gengar84]

My “friend who’s too woke” Smash opinion is that cutting a series like Mother, simply because it has ended on its own terms because it said everything it needed to say, is actively anti-art and reflects poorly on anyone who suggests it.

Smash isn’t and never has been about simply promoting what they can sell to you at that given point in time and the strange fixation from some fans for it to become this is baffling.

I agree with this completely. I think Smash is at its best when it celebrates the entire history of Nintendo and gaming at large rather than just what’s hot right now. That said, I think it’s also important to include currently popular characters and games but not at the exclusion of long time favorites or even fun retro characters. I’d aim for an even mix of new and nostalgic. That way it feels like it’s covering everything without feeling like it’s just being used as an advertisement or conversely, ignoring what’s exciting about modern characters and games in favor of purely nostalgia.

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't know why people want Smash to become "modern gaming only".

 

[HyperSomari64]

I don't know why people want Smash to become "modern gaming only".

Smash needs to be "Old School Gaming only", so any VG character created after '99 won't be there.

 

[Shinuto]

Smash needs to be "Old School Gaming only", so any VG character created after '99 won't be there.

Good thing Shantae was technically created before 99, she just didn't get a proper debit till 2002.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Good thing Shantae was technically created before 99, she just didn't get a proper debit till 2002.

Makes sense. She wouldn't have to worry about putting money in a bank until she got old enough to get a job.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Good thing Shantae was technically created before 99, she just didn't get a proper debit till 2002.

Makes sense. She wouldn't have to worry about putting money in a bank until she got old enough to get a job.

Well, maybe in her concept art design.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I wouldn't personally be a fan. Part of the fun when classic characters get in is seeing what places like Wily's castle or Spiral Mountain look like in a modernized version. Pac-Land on the other hand is incredibly lame.
Not to mention that Doom has a perfectly viable modern aesthetic already, and it looks great.

I'd have to agree. I never cared much for the stages that replicate the 8-bit style of older games.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think it's impossible for Echo characters to get new moves. Luigi, Falco, Roy and eventually Ganondorf would get some new moves after their initial debut to differentiate themselves from Mario, Fox, Marth and Captain Falcon. And Lucina, Chrom, Dark Pit and Dark Samus certainly have enough material to get some new moves of their own. What really matters is if Sakurai thinks making them different from Marth, Roy, Pit and Samus is worth the extra development or not.

In the case of Dark Pit, I don't know. Not too sure about Daisy either. They work fine the way they do. I don't see them as great candidates to be anything more than a clone on the level of say, Dr.Mario. Sure they can be given some unique attributes, but not on a similar level to say Chrom or Dark Samus.

Dark Samus am especially confident in cause I doubt were not gonna see a remake of Metroid Prime 2. I suspect they'll cut her and eventually readdress her move set through DLC.

And again I really wanna see Lucina and Chrom share a move set. And have them be reworked around their Awakening appearance. I mean, Robin gets all the attention for being from Awakening and it being so huge for Fire Emblem and it's revival and you name it. But Lucina and Chrom are also from this same game, and even have bigger popularity.

Honestly I suspect they only will cut Corrin. And even Roy seems kinda logical to keep. Or at least might end up being DLC. I see a similar fate happening for Lucas and maybe Wolf even.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Just weird that they made her almost completely identical in the first place.

Other echoes have at least one major difference but she is weirdly the exception. Even Richter has different with his down b despite it not mattering outside of a few match ups.

The funny part is she used to have a difference in that her turnips behaved like in Smash 4 rather than the changes Peach's got in Ultimate.

It was patched out the day Hero dropped, making the two identical.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I'd have to agree. I never cared much for the stages that replicate the 8-bit style of older games.

Me neither, to be honest. It's always a little disappointing.
Stuff like the Mario Bros. stage or the SNES F-Zero one I can live with, but for example the Duck Hunt stage was pretty disappointing for me. Seeing the Ice Climber and Kid Icarus universes reimagined beyond just their main characters was interesting, it's a shame that Duck Hunt or ROB never got the same treatment.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The funny part is she used to have a difference in that her turnips behaved like in Smash 4 rather than the changes Peach's got in Ultimate.

It was patched out the day Hero dropped, making the two identical.

It would be hilarious if they decided to lean into the idea in the next game.

EDIT: Daisy's down special now summons carrots instead of turnips. These carrots have less, more impactful variants:

1. Bouncy: Like a regular turnip, but it doesn't travel as far before hitting the ground. Instead, it bounces off of terrain and shields as well as enemies, kind of giving Daisy Mario's fireball as an item.
2. Twisted: Drills through the air, hitting multiple times.
3. Curved: Acts as a boomerang, creating a lingering threat.
4. Explosive: Pierces through shields and enemies, but plants itself into the ground when it lands. Once planted, the carrot will explode when stepped on, or Daisy uses Vegetable again.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I was talking about the fact that they're both from the same company.

So what? As we can see, both series got content in Smash already, so there's no hint of any kind of favoritism or something. And it's not like more than one series from the same company hasn't been in Smash before.

 

[ninjahmos]

Smash isn't just about who or what's popular today. It's also about celebrating a certain legacy of gaming (mainly Nintendo).

Besides, if it weren't for the games that were made back then, we probably wouldn't even have the games that are being made today.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

This isn't strictly related to Smash, but I do kinda wonder if someone at Nintendo has ever brought up the idea of remakes to Itoi or vice versa. Just to get the story he made out to more people while improving gameplay aspects since we're dealing with an NES game, an SNES game from 30 years ago, and a GBA game from 18 years ago.

They should get the guys that made Links awakening's remake to do it, the artstyle for the humans is already similar.

 

[Louie G.]

Not too sure about Daisy either. They work fine the way they do. I don't see them as great candidates to be anything more than a clone on the level of say, Dr.Mario.

You don’t see Daisy as being more capable of being unique than Dr. Mario??? That’s your example? I’m calling bull on that seeing how one of these characters is… well, actually a different, well defined character. All Dr. Mario truly needed was the pills, theoretically he could have remained the same otherwise.

Like, I agree we don’t need this big overhaul for Daisy either but surely her distinct personality from Peach should be enough here. Much like Falco the core moveset philosophy can remain but animations and new attacks can be adjusted to account for Daisy’s more confrontational and tomboyish nature.

For starters, does it make a lot of sense for Daisy to summon a rainbow and ribbons? Does it feel right for her to cower behind a Toad? They can get away with it, sure, but the potential is surely there to expand on it. Giving her a more physical, fisticuffs edge over Peach’s more delicate personality is a no-brainer.

Dark Pit I will defend less, because he is canonically a clone of Pit. You could differentiate him if you wanted (I’d love it, honestly) but I don’t see him being deemed worth the effort… he’s pretty lucky to be here by virtue of Pit anyway. Daisy has had a lot going on recently so I feel like she demands a bit more attention.

 

[Ivander]

They should get the guys that made Links awakening's remake to do it, the artstyle for the humans is already similar.

Grezzo's artstyle for the Link's Awakening remake and Echoes of Wisdom would be somewhat fitting for the Mother series. The reason I say somewhat is because the original "artworks" for the characters were Clay models and think that if the Link's Awakening and Echoes of Wisdom artstyle were to be given less of a "toy" look and more of a "Clay" look, something like this fan-made look for Earthbound Beginnings, I think that would be perfect for a Mother series remake.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Dark Pit I will defend less, because he is canonically a clone of Pit. You could differentiate him if you wanted (I’d love it, honestly) but I don’t see him being deemed worth the effort… he’s pretty lucky to be here by virtue of Pit anyway.

I'd say it's worth the effort on principle. He's got a decent foundation already with the difference between Palutena's Bow and Silver Bow, he just needs a bit more than that other than his situational side special K.O.ing differently.

 

[Louie G.]

I'd say it's worth the effort on principle. He's got a decent foundation already with the difference between Palutena's Bow and Silver Bow, he just needs a bit more than that other than his situational side special K.O.ing differently.

Right, maybe that was a bad choice of words. I just meant from a development standpoint, I can't see Dark Pit being someone who is designated that much attention or time to tweak... the only reason Dark Pit would likely come back in the first place is because he's 90% a copy paste job. Compared to someone like Daisy who has essentially risen in stock and found more things to do since last game, I think she would be more of a priority to include from day one.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'd say it's worth the effort on principle. He's got a decent foundation already with the difference between Palutena's Bow and Silver Bow, he just needs a bit more than that other than his situational side special K.O.ing differently.

Dark Pit could definitely be made different, Uprising had enough weapon types for that like claws, arms, and cannons, but yeah, it depends on if the team would deem it necessary beyond the Final Smash being Dark Pit's Staff.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Right, maybe that was a bad choice of words. I just meant from a development standpoint, I can't see Dark Pit being someone who is designated that much attention or time to tweak... the only reason Dark Pit would likely come back in the first place is because he's 90% a copy paste job. Compared to someone like Daisy who has essentially risen in stock and found more things to do since last game, I think she would be more of a priority to include from day one.

Dark Pit would've been perfectly acceptable if he was a clone of Pit's playstyle in Brawl. The fact that 4 gave Pit a substantially new moveset, and then a clone of that new moveset, just doesn't match well.

 

[Dinoman96]

Dark Pit would've been perfectly acceptable if he was a clone of Pit's playstyle in Brawl. The fact that 4 gave Pit a substantially new moveset, and then a clone of that new moveset, just doesn't match well.

I mean...it makes sense to me. Dark Pit is a character from Kid Icarus Uprising, why would he not have Pit's new Uprising inspired moveset?

 

[Louie G.]

That said, I think it’s also important to include currently popular characters and games but not at the exclusion of long time favorites or even fun retro characters. I’d aim for an even mix of new and nostalgic. That way it feels like it’s covering everything without feeling like it’s just being used as an advertisement or conversely, ignoring what’s exciting about modern characters and games in favor of purely nostalgia.

Felt like addressing this also because yeah, I wholly agree that this is the way to do it because this is the way Smash has always handled itself. That's kind of the most confusing part to me when people harp about relevance toward established or popular veterans. What does cutting Ness achieve exactly? He was knowingly brought back game after game and Mother is in no less dire a state today than it was back in 2014... probably a lot less so, actually. He stands as one of the most popular characters in Smash Bros. The one and only reason would be to punish a series that has said all it feels compelled to say.

On another hand, what would cutting K. Rool achieve? One of the most highly anticipated characters to join the series, now one of the most popular characters in the game, and he was knowingly added to Smash despite being dormant for over a decade. If relevance didn't matter then, why does it matter so much now? The existence of old characters is not hurting the contemporary Nintendo brand if there is still room to introduce new faces. I use these two examples just to highlight how pointless it is to insist Smash suddenly experiences this face turn of rejecting a bunch of Nintendo history in favor of wholly contemporary pursuits.

Next game has the potential to introduce many new faces from across the Switch era and focus on some of Nintendo's biggest hits yet. But a roster that is exclusively concerned with this does not understand the series values and I don't see these values changing until Sakurai drops dead. We can have a veteran lineup where Ice Climbers and Inkling occupy the same space, we can have a batch of newcomers that includes both Isaac and Oatchi. That's how we've always done it and that's how it will continue to be.

 

[MasterCheef]

What does cutting Ness achieve exactly?

On another hand, what would cutting K. Rool achieve? One of the most highly anticipated characters to join the series, now one of the most popular characters in the game, and he was knowingly added to Smash despite being dormant for over a decade.

Cutting just about any character opens up more opportunity for new characters.

For Ness specifically , cutting him & Lucas would hopefully reduce the number of annoying ****** characters.

For ( King K. Rool ) , it would be cutting a character who has T.Rex syndrome ; short / stubby ( arms & legs ). Not too mention there is waaay too much ( beginning & ending ) lag for his 2 most important offensive specials. Blunderbuss should go diagonally & Crownerang should be thrown faster.

Not saying i want ( King K. Rool ) cut , more saying this is why it is a pain to play him.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Dark Pit would've been perfectly acceptable if he was a clone of Pit's playstyle in Brawl. The fact that 4 gave Pit a substantially new moveset, and then a clone of that new moveset, just doesn't match well.

If anything they should just change his normals to look like Brawl Pit's, Electroshock Arm is a key part of Dark Pit's kit.

 

[Gengar84]

Cutting just about any character opens up more opportunity for new characters.

For Ness specifically , cutting him & Lucas would hopefully reduce the number of annoying ****** characters.

For ( King K. Rool ) , it would be cutting a character who has T.Rex syndrome ; short / stubby ( arms & legs ). Not too mention there is waaay too much ( beginning & ending ) lag for his 2 most important offensive specials. Blunderbuss should go diagonally & Crownerang should be thrown faster.

Not saying i want ( King K. Rool ) cut , more saying this is why it is a pain to play him.

That kind of stuff with K. Rool can be fixed with balancing. Like Bayonetta was completely broken in Smash 4 but fair in Ultimate. As for Ness, I think that’s more of a personal preference thing. I’m not the biggest Earthbound fan myself but I realize it means a lot to lots of people. I also try to avoid completely removing first party series representation, especially a cult classic like Earthbound with multiple entries. The only way I could ever see Ness going is with a complete reboot of the roster starting from the ground up. As things currently stand, I don’t think Ness will or should ever be cut.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Wii Fit Trainer is probably one of the few sole first party characters I could see being cut with the Ring Fit Adventure Trainer being the replacement.

While their games sold very well, the popularity isn’t because of the character and the Mii Fighters also represent the Wii.

 

[MasterCheef]

The only way I could ever see Ness going is with a complete reboot of the roster starting from the ground up. As things currently stand, I don’t think Ness will or should ever be cut.

As long as there are a few exceptional counters to these undersized characters i really won't mind them as much.

 

[Gengar84]

As long as there are a few exceptional counters to these undersized characters i really won't mind them as much.

Yeah, I realize that Smash needs to appeal to a lot of different tastes, not just what I personally like. That’s fine with me. For example, I never really clicked with the visual style of Animal Crossing, Earthbound, Pikmin, Splatoon, or ARMS but it’s cool that Smash includes them for those that do resonate more with those styles. Plus it gives Smash more visual variety and representation. If Smash was only my personal tastes, it would probably look too samey for everyone else.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

I think maybe someone like Daisy will be further differentiated from Peach, she seems like a good candidate for a progressive Luigification, but Lucina will almost certainly stay mostly the same on purpose. She’s the one echo other than Ken whose slight changes shake up her gameplay in a really significant way. Marth’s specialized design means removing tipper transforms Lucina into practically a different archetype altogether.

Being able to create a starkly different playstyle with such relatively little effort is kind of why she’ll always be the most efficient and important echo fighter. Decloning her feels really unnecessary and almost counterintuitive with that in mind.

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For Daisy some changes like this I think would be pretty cool. My favorite here is her earth pillars down smash. At the bare minimum I think they should give her three jumps and faster running speed but remove her floating to make her feel more distinct to Peach. Besides this they also could just give a few more unique new moves to Peach from her new game or something and just leave Daisy with her old moveset for the most part and she be distinct as well that way.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Re: Clones

The only thing I don't want to see in Smash 6 is any more clones that don't even have one meaningful difference (Daisy, Richter, Dark Samus). I don't care if echos don't technically need to have a meaningful difference by Sakurai's rules, it doesn't make their presence feel any less bloaty.

I'm fine with echos being like 98% identical, but not 100%. Dark Pit is my minimum for clone changes; real differences on one-two moves is all I'm asking for, if you insist on giving them their own CSS slot at all.

Wii Fit Trainer is probably one of the few sole first party characters I could see being cut with the Ring Fit Adventure Trainer being the replacement.

While their games sold very well, the popularity isn’t because of the character and the Mii Fighters also represent the Wii.

If it came down to it, I do think Wii Fit would be one of the first solo 1st party series cut; only ones I could maybe see getting cut before her would be R.O.B. and Ice Climbers, still workin' out the answer. So I don't disagree; but I also don't think enough characters will get cut for any to be in danger, so I don't see her getting cut unless we're going scorched earth.