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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Opossum

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Honestly Wolf being 70% of a unique fighter is a decently higher percentage than I would expect. Even with how much he varies from Fox, he's clearly borrowing assets for the vast majority of his moves.

This is just what I was looking for. Thank you!

The statement about the Melee clones is really interesting. Granted, they were pretty damn unoriginal, but six of them being less work than a single character is pretty staggering. I wonder if even Sakurai's estimations are iffy because Melee Falco being ~17% the work of a full character, while Brawl Wolf was ~70% feels like a pretty wide bridge.

And using Mario as the default 100% difficulty character still has me curious. Most seem to agree Steve was probably the biggest undertaking of any single character. Incorporating mining and crafting and having to meticulously implement the build mechanic into every single stage. Is Steve hitting 150%, or somewhere like 300%? I'm not even sure who the second most complicated character is. I guess Kazuya and Hero with their sheer move quantity probably took a good deal of work, but maybe not as much as I'm assuming.

The transforming characters are interesting. I'd love to know exactly how efficiently they were able to design Pyra/Mythra. Not only are they semi-clones, but they are also relatively simplistic and I wonder if designing both of them simultaneously made the process easier or harder.

The Miis also make me think. They each have 12 unique moves that have to be balanced and designed, but they are also extremely simple. And this is sidetracked, but I'm also curious how much work the custom moves in Smash 4 took. They were wildly unbalanced and rarely all that extravagant, but they still did that ****. People often cite special moves as being the most complicated aspect of characters, but Smash 4 (and Hero's move list) makes it seem like no big thing at all. Clearly I'm missing something about game development because the fact we get clones like Lucina and Daisy with zero unique special moves when Smash 4 added about 400 for a mechanic that no one cared about is quite the head scratcher.
In absolute fairness with Steve, while he's still almost certainly one of the most complicated characters to implement, from what we know the bulk of the difficulty from adding him came from the fact that they had to change all the stages retroactively. A game where Steve is planned from the start, and the stages are hard coded with his gimmick in mind from the get go, would likely smooth the process quite a bit.

Basically, a Base Game Steve would be far easier to add than a DLC Steve, even if Base Game Steve is still complex on his own.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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In absolute fairness with Steve, while he's still almost certainly one of the most complicated characters to implement, from what we know the bulk of the difficulty from adding him came from the fact that they had to change all the stages retroactively. A game where Steve is planned from the start, and the stages are hard coded with his gimmick in mind from the get go, would likely smooth the process quite a bit.

Basically, a Base Game Steve would be far easier to add than a DLC Steve, even if Base Game Steve is still complex on his own.
A base game Steve would also be helped by the fact that presumably a new Smash where Steve can be base game wouldn't have 100+ stages to build with his abilities in mind.

This is part of the reason I think they would build any new stages with Steve in mind even if he ISN'T in base game, like "Well, we might add Steve later so just build them to be able to use Blocks now so it's not a pain in the *** later" lol
 

dream1ng

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I think the difficult part of implementing Steve for Sakurai was devising a moveset that was faithful to Minecraft but still worked in Smash. I think the stage aspect wasn't difficult as much as it was probably quite tedious. But I agree, now that he's there, the process will be much smoother.

When the rebuild the roster, I think the most arduous character to make, barring future characters as intensive as Steve, will actually be Kirby. Even with the fact that most won't be new content, that little dude has his moveset, but then literally has as many moves and models as there are characters.

Reminds me of in the Ultimate E3 show, how when going over the vets, Kirby's portion was basically just Sakurai going "this guy's a lot of damn work!" xD
 

Guynamednelson

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but then literally has as many moves and models as there are characters
I'd assume for the most part, his hats are tweaked assets from the rest of the fighters' models, it'd be his Copy Abilities' animations and code that take the most work.
 

dream1ng

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I'd assume for the most part, his hats are tweaked assets from the rest of the fighters' models, it'd be his Copy Abilities' animations and code that take the most work.
I would assume as much as well, yes. At least for most of them. And were they built from scratch it'd be that much more work. But even with existing assets, it's still creating, testing, debugging, and as you mentioned, animating and coding 50, 60, 70, 80+ extra attacks, each with their own model.
 

Gorgonzales

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I kinda want Worms to be represented in Smash somehow. Especially with this song:

I'd definitely like a Worm as a playable character. Worms is an odd series in that, from what I can tell, the games actually sell quite a lot and the franchise is relatively well-known. Nobody really brings them up in Smash speculation though. I suppose it's because there are lots of bigger fish when it comes to 3rd party requests.
 
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DarthEnderX

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And spend 60 more dollars. :4pacman:
Worth it!

And if you wanted most of those newcomers to be first-party (like me) you were screwed due to DLC prioritizing third-parties.
And if you wanted most of those newcomers to be third-party (like me), Ultimate was win-win.

It's okay, according to DarthEnderX's fantasy world people have unlimited money to spend on a century of Fighters Passes.
What fantasy world do you live in where tens of millions of people aren't already spending $30 a year or more on their favorite game?

Will always hope for Smash Run to return.
Make it a Battle Royale!

64 players teleport in. Players run around killing creeps and collecting upgrades. Map shrinks over time. Last 4 surviving players have a Smash match.

Could we not just say the same in the opposite direction. If you want a constantly rotating cast with cuts and change, go play street fighter?

This feels like a very silly thing to say
The solution is obvious. Do both!

Continue to update Ultimate indefinitely. And also release some disappointing "new" Smash every 5 years or so.

Some day y'all will learn that infinite growth is completely unsustainable.
Infinite growth is unsustainable without infinite money.

Smash makes infinite money.
 
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DarthEnderX

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What if the next Smash is just DLC for Ultimate? But its huge.

They'll say it had something to do with licencing and stuff and they keep continuing to update Ultimate forever basically. Or at least coming 10 years or so.

What would your reaction be?

Ultimate was a great step in the right direction but I feel like Smash still has a lot of untapped villain representation, even just among existing series and/or first party. Are there any villains you’d like to see in Smash someday?
As Fighters:
Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
King Hippo [Punch-Out]
Firebrand [Gargoyle’s Quest]
M. Bison [Street Fighter]
Vergil [Devil May Cry]
Wesker [Resident Evil]
Majima [Like A Dragon]
Kerrigan [StarCraft]

As Echoes:
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]

As Bosses:
Mother Brain [Metroid]
Andross [Star Fox]
Porky [Earthbound]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Liquid Snake piloting Metal Gear REX [Metal Gear]
Eggman piloting Death Egg Robot [Sonic the Hedgehog]
Dr. Wily piloting Wily Machine [Mega Man]
Safer∙Sephiroth [Final Fantasy]
Astaroth [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]

Do we have an actual understanding, or even a ballpark estimation, of just how much work it takes to create a given character?
 
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dream1ng

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Infinite growth is unsustainable without infinite money.

Smash makes infinite money.
But it isn't allocated an infinite budget.

It doesn't matter if Smash makes enough money to add 500 characters, they cap the budget at a line where infinite growth is unsustainable. You can pose all the theoreticals you like, but you're arguing against how game development, especially Nintendo game development, actually works.

The Smash team has a high budget for a Nintendo game, but doesn't have a blank cheque.
 

Guynamednelson

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…I don't think that's how it works.
It literally isn't when you consider that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is the actual #1 best selling Switch game, selling almost twice as much as SSBU, and even beyond that Mario Kart has always had a tendency to outsell Smash except on the Gamecube. Combine that with how Mario Kart has way less third-party licensing to deal with, and it's Nintendo's real infinite money cheat.
 

Kirby Dragons

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Ultimate was a great step in the right direction but I feel like Smash still has a lot of untapped villain representation, even just among existing series and/or first party. Are there any villains you’d like to see in Smash someday? I’ll try to break down by series and find something I’d be happy with for as many as I can:

Super Mario - Wart
Luigi’s Mansion - King Boo
Yoshi - Kamek
Donkey Kong - Lord Frederick
Legend of Zelda - Skull Kid
Pokémon - Team Rocket
Kirby - Elfilis
Fire Emblem - The Black Knight
Metroid - Raven Beak
Splatoon - DJ Octavio
Xenoblade - Mobius D&J
Kid Icarus - Medusa
ARMS - Dr. Coyle
Earthbound - Giygas

Which villains would you like to see?
King Boo, Kamek, Bugzzy, Amazon Pandora

An idea I've also toyed with before was Nihilego-Lusamine. Though, I don't know if they'd just use Nihilego's moves, or have Lusamine use her own Pokemon, or try to do a mix of both.
 

jamesster445

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Ultimate was a great step in the right direction but I feel like Smash still has a lot of untapped villain representation, even just among existing series and/or first party. Are there any villains you’d like to see in Smash someday? I’ll try to break down by series and find something I’d be happy with for as many as I can:

Super Mario - Wart
Luigi’s Mansion - King Boo
Yoshi - Kamek
Donkey Kong - Lord Frederick
Legend of Zelda - Skull Kid
Pokémon - Team Rocket
Kirby - Elfilis
Fire Emblem - The Black Knight
Metroid - Raven Beak
Splatoon - DJ Octavio
Xenoblade - Mobius D&J
Kid Icarus - Medusa
ARMS - Dr. Coyle
Earthbound - Giygas

Which villains would you like to see?
Emio.
 

ninjahmos

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Ultimate was a great step in the right direction but I feel like Smash still has a lot of untapped villain representation, even just among existing series and/or first party. Are there any villains you’d like to see in Smash someday? I’ll try to break down by series and find something I’d be happy with for as many as I can:

Super Mario - Wart
Luigi’s Mansion - King Boo
Yoshi - Kamek
Donkey Kong - Lord Frederick
Legend of Zelda - Skull Kid
Pokémon - Team Rocket
Kirby - Elfilis
Fire Emblem - The Black Knight
Metroid - Raven Beak
Splatoon - DJ Octavio
Xenoblade - Mobius D&J
Kid Icarus - Medusa
ARMS - Dr. Coyle
Earthbound - Giygas

Which villains would you like to see?
Captain Syrup, Dark Matter and Porky Minch.
 

Gengar84

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I think my most wanted first party villain is Jena Anderson from Astral Chain but I have a hard time seeing AC get more than one character unfortunately. Medusa would be awesome as well but I’m not confident in getting another Kid Icarus character at this point. I don’t know a whole lot about Splatoon characters but as I was looking into it, I think the main villain, DJ Octavio looks pretty interesting. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen him brought up as an option for a Splatoon character.

If we’re including third party characters, I’d say my most wanted right now is Jinx from League of Legends. Magus and Fulgore are probably next. I managed to cover a lot of the ones I was most interested in with my roster but there’s plenty more I’d love to see that I didn’t have room to add.
 
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Gengar84

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I think the only villain I had on my entire wish list of like 18 characters when I made it was Monokuma, so I guess I'll throw him out there for the villain discussion lol
Interesting. I had quite a few. I just love being able to play as villains in smash because you don’t usually get the chance to otherwise. Plus I like creating matchups of heroes vs villains. That’s harder to do without many villains.
 

ninjahmos

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Gorgonzales

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Ultimate was a great step in the right direction but I feel like Smash still has a lot of untapped villain representation, even just among existing series and/or first party. Are there any villains you’d like to see in Smash someday? I’ll try to break down by series and find something I’d be happy with for as many as I can:
Louie.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Ultimate was a great step in the right direction but I feel like Smash still has a lot of untapped villain representation, even just among existing series and/or first party. Are there any villains you’d like to see in Smash someday?
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bottom text
 
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DarthEnderX

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Interesting. I had quite a few. I just love being able to play as villains in smash because you don’t usually get the chance to otherwise. Plus I like creating matchups of heroes vs villains. That’s harder to do without many villains.
Only Nightmare, Firebrand and King Hippo are in my Top 30.

The others I want to see, but not till after their series protags.

Vergil with no Dante, Majima with no Kiryu, or Wesker as the first RE character would just be silly.

I think he'd be neat
I think Illidan would be a better fit for Smash. A lot more moveset potential.
 
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Borskaboska

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Ok I hate to be the guy whos's like "Um akshully it's quite simple 🤓☝", but wouldn't estimating how much effort it takes to make a smash character actually be kinda easy? Like, it's not witchcraft, theres plenty of information on general game development.
Every character has a 3d model. There's tons of 3d modelers out there, i dont think it would be that difficult to find information online on how much time it would take to model a character at a given level of complexity.
You can just count how many seconds of animation a character has. I remember hearing somewhere that a professional animator can make 6 seconds of animation a day, but I cant remember if that was for a single character or a whole scene.
You do have to program the characters, but they have to have that down to a science by now after making 80 of them. Programming characters has to be more like filling out a spreadsheet, i just have a hard time believing they regularly run into novel programming roadblocks. Even steve sounds like he was more tedious to program than actually difficult.
Designing them probably is the hardest to estimate since it's purely creative and we wouldnt entirely know the kinds of things sakurai has to consider. I think the only time he gave an answer to how long it take to design a character is when he said he came up with greninja's moveset in a day. So it probably takes at most a couple weeks.
Then you have to add the beurocrasy- approving the animations, approving the models, approving the sound effects, getting approval from the licenses, so on and so forth. Gonna be real this is probably like half of development time.
 

dream1ng

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Ok I hate to be the guy whos's like "Um akshully it's quite simple 🤓☝", but wouldn't estimating how much effort it takes to make a smash character actually be kinda easy? Like, it's not witchcraft, theres plenty of information on general game development.
Every character has a 3d model. There's tons of 3d modelers out there, i dont think it would be that difficult to find information online on how much time it would take to model a character at a given level of complexity.
You can just count how many seconds of animation a character has. I remember hearing somewhere that a professional animator can make 6 seconds of animation a day, but I cant remember if that was for a single character or a whole scene.
You do have to program the characters, but they have to have that down to a science by now after making 80 of them. Programming characters has to be more like filling out a spreadsheet, i just have a hard time believing they regularly run into novel programming roadblocks. Even steve sounds like he was more tedious to program than actually difficult.
Designing them probably is the hardest to estimate since it's purely creative and we wouldnt entirely know the kinds of things sakurai has to consider. I think the only time he gave an answer to how long it take to design a character is when he said he came up with greninja's moveset in a day. So it probably takes at most a couple weeks.
Then you have to add the beurocrasy- approving the animations, approving the models, approving the sound effects, getting approval from the licenses, so on and so forth. Gonna be real this is probably like half of development time.
It's easy to explain what needs to be done, it's not quite as a simple to sit down and work through it. You can tell a painter what you want a picture of, and how to paint it, but actually making the painting takes time.

Just because programmers know how to program and animators know how to animate doesn't mean it's not still a time-consuming process. The difficulty isn't in figuring out how to do their job, these are professionals, it's going through the effort of creating it.

They're not animating a movie, it has to do more than look good; the animations have to correspond to the gameplay down to exact frames. Count how many unique frames each character has, including using items, and with all statuses. Don't forget all the effects, either. Now add stages, bosses, items, ATs, Pokemon, etc. which also all have animations. The team may be skilled, but there's a lot to do. And just because an animation is finished doesn't mean it won't necessarily get reworked based on feedback from the testers or the license holders.

The gameplay has to be programmed and tested, across the entire cast, on every stage, on all modes, with all items and with modifiers like spirits. And not just how characters function, but how characters think with the CPUs, across all the difficulties. Thousands of alterations will need to be made over the course of development that trickle to every branch of the team - artists, animators, designers, audio, testers, programmers - which then need to be coordinated back through producers and again subject to QA.

And just because programmers know how to program doesn't mean there won't be instances where something in the code is causing trouble, and they can't even identify where exactly the hurdle is. The last few months of development before launch is usually primarily debugging, because of how many there end up being. Not to mention fixing one thing in the code can cascade into other problems. No doubt they're capable programmers, but these problems inherently arise during development.

Meanwhile all of this is happening with each universe coming with its own mandates, the models and animations have to be approved by the license holders, the character's kit should be viable and interesting, which requires designers, testers, and programmers. Everything needs to be able to run as intended across every possible variation to the game, which in Smash... are a lot of possible variations. It's certainly not just 1v1, items off in VS mode.

And all the while, you have a perfectionist boss who no doubt exerts some form of micromanaging on you, and is probably not the easiest guy to satisfy.
 
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Stratos

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smash 6 newcomer: "would you still love me if I was a worm? 🥺 👉👈 "
It would be interesting if one of the newcomers in Super Smash Bros. 6 was a worm, whether it's Earthworm Jim or a worm from the Worms series. Although I think you mean one of the worms from the Worms series, I remember playing some Worms games from a friend of mine, so I think a worm from the Worms series would be a good fit as a newcomer. The worm from the Worms series, has the moves it needs and the stages from the Worms series match the Super Smash Bros. series. As for its Final Smash, I don't know that. However, I would also like Earthworm Jim and the worm from the Worms series as newcomers to the Super Smash Bros. series, and it would be better (at least for me) to have those two come to Super Smash Bros. 6.
 
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Royaru

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Which villains would you like to see?
This is a very interesting topic, here are some of mine:
Super Mario: Fawful
Luigi's Mansion: King Boo
Wario: Captain Syrup
The Legend of Zelda: Master Kohga and Skull Kid
Pokémon: Iron Valiant and Zoroark (With N)
Kirby: Magolor and Marx
Splatoon: D.J. Octavius
Pikmin: Louis&Ancient Sirehound and Plasma Wraith
Xenoblade: Jin and N
Fire Emblem: Black Knight, Camus and Lyon
Metroid: Raven Beak
Kid Icarus: Hades
Earthbound/Mother: Masked Man

And some TP:
Bayonetta: Balder
Dragon Quest: Psaro

Many are not exactly villains but rather very prominent antagonists or rivals. I would love for every Smash to have at least 2/3 new villains from Nintendo franchises
 

Stratos

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Ultimate was a great step in the right direction but I feel like Smash still has a lot of untapped villain representation, even just among existing series and/or first party. Are there any villains you’d like to see in Smash someday? I’ll try to break down by series and find something I’d be happy with for as many as I can:

Super Mario - Wart
Luigi’s Mansion - King Boo
Yoshi - Kamek
Donkey Kong - Lord Frederick
Legend of Zelda - Skull Kid
Pokémon - Team Rocket
Kirby - Elfilis
Fire Emblem - The Black Knight
Metroid - Raven Beak
Splatoon - DJ Octavio
Xenoblade - Mobius D&J
Kid Icarus - Medusa
ARMS - Dr. Coyle
Earthbound - Giygas

Which villains would you like to see?
Super Mario: Wart
Pokémon: Meowth of Team Rocket
Splatoon: DJ Octavio
Kid Icarus: Medusa
Metroid: Raven Beak
Metroid: Mother Brain
F-ZERO: Black Shadow
Sonic: Dr. Eggman
Mega Man: Dr. Wily
Mega Man: Sigma
 
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