Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ZeldaFan01]

I'd love to see Dante (and Vergil, if we could get both at once) added into a future Smash game.

Ah yes, they also would grace the to be quite, honest.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Earlier, it was mentioned that Hyrule Historia was vague about this even in the Japanese version. Would you happen to have a scan of the Japanese page? I might be able to interpret it and see if that's actually the case.

Page 174, from doing enough research. Can't find a scan though.

...And there it is. Thanks to this site's old posts, heh.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Speaking of which, though, does anyone think we'll ever see a new Fighter that's another incarnation of an existing Fighter again, like Dr. Mario or the multiple Links (and I guess transformations being their own thing, though unless we downgrade to a 3DS again, I see no reason to split Pyra and Mythra)? The Legend of Zelda series certainly has several incarnations of the same characters, though aside from maybe Ganon, I can't see yet another one of them going down too well (in fact, Toon Link initially seemed to act as a replacement for Young Link). Also, what would you even call these new incarnations? Dr. Mario may've already been from an established title, but Smash specifically had to come up with the descriptors of "Young" and "Toon" to differentiate Link. For that matter, could anyone see them ever making the same character, with the same appearance, but using an alternate moveset?

I could see Paper Mario coming in the future. I think he's different enough to Mario to have his own spot without causing an outrage and he could obviously have a very different moveset.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Speaking of which, though, does anyone think we'll ever see a new Fighter that's another incarnation of an existing Fighter again, like Dr. Mario or the multiple Links (and I guess transformations being their own thing, though unless we downgrade to a 3DS again, I see no reason to split Pyra and Mythra)? The Legend of Zelda series certainly has several incarnations of the same characters, though aside from maybe Ganon, I can't see yet another one of them going down too well (in fact, Toon Link initially seemed to act as a replacement for Young Link). Also, what would you even call these new incarnations? Dr. Mario may've already been from an established title, but Smash specifically had to come up with the descriptors of "Young" and "Toon" to differentiate Link. For that matter, could anyone see them ever making the same character, with the same appearance, but using an alternate moveset?

Nobody we haven't already gotten. The only Nintendo characters I can think of that would make a lot of sense would be sports versions of Mario characters, which could easily be done by Toad or Waluigi instead. I don't really see Nintendo pulling multiple of a single third-party character, either, if only because there are so many options without doubling down on one.

I can't help but think of Isaac from Dark Dawn in this scenario. That's his best design, but it'll never happen. We'd have to go through probably four other Golden Sun characters before even thinking about adding that version of him.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I could easily see Paper Mario get in. He's an actual notable and unique one. Ganon is plausible, but he's very underused in Smash compared to Ganondorf. Toon Zelda is also possible, though unlikely since they don't seem too interested in even adding another Zelda character at this point to begin with.

 

[DarthEnderX]

how? theyre not infused with alien DNA nor do they try a drop a meteor on the planet nor carry an absurdly long sword nor have a deep connection with the series hero. i dont think they have any of the traits that make sephiroth, sephiroth

White-haired bishonens in black coats. Nomura only has one villain design in his repertoire.

Tell me you've never played Kingdom Hearts without telling me you've never played Kingdom Hearts.

I know the entire story of the entire series.

Ironically, Sephiroth is actually taking after 'nort more now thanks to FF7R's timeghost bull****.

 

[Gengar84]

Page 174, from doing enough research. Can't find a scan though.

...And there it is. Thanks to this site's old posts, heh.

I really miss Zelda’s Twilight Princess design. Her Ultimate design is nice in its own way but I just loved the serious tone of her TP incarnation. She was by far my favorite version of the character and was my favorite character in Brawl and Smash 4 aesthetically.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I really miss Zelda’s Twilight Princess design. Her Ultimate design is nice in its own way but I just loved the serious tone of her TP incarnation. She was by far my favorite version of the character and was my favorite character in Brawl design-wise.

It helps it continues showing her as a potential fighter. First time we see a more regular Zelda do so too. Toon Zelda, Sheik(different from), and Tetra are all pretty different overall. Albeit, Sheik ironically still had more canon moves used than Zelda(even if retroactively it's reversed thanks to SS adding some major lore pieces).

Albeit, I do like her new style, as she's a lot more colorful and cheerful. Though I guess you could get the same point across with Toon Zelda, heh.

 

[Gengar84]

White-haired bishonens in black coats. Nomura only has one villain design in his repertoire.

I know the entire story of the entire series.

Ironically, Sephiroth is actually taking after 'nort more now thanks to FF7R's timeghost bull****.

Xemnas is coolest with his white coat with the tribal designs anyway. I think it’s a lot more interesting looking than his default Organization robe.

As far as Nomura’s other villains,

None of these really fit that description.

 

[Ivander]

Nomura villains being white-haired pretty boys in black coats? Nah. Nomura villains mostly having a long coat and often an exposed chest, however.

 

[SPEN18]

On drawing moves from non-canon or non-mainline appearances...when designing a character, I think that potential moves inspired by non-canon or non-mainline appearances should generally receive less priority compared to those drawn from mainline appearances, but could be used to help fill out a moveset if necessary. Make sure the mainline/canon incarnations of the character are represented properly and fully, but basically any appearances in video games published by Nintendo or company of origin can be at least considered for movepools.

 

[fogbadge]

I wasn't going to actually say the Phantom thing, since I was hoping you'd bring up a good analogy.

its was midnight and i was tired

But yes, there's definitely a good case of it being awkward. Incidentally, the Phantom is a move that should be removed and they should add something that isn't from a different Toon character to begin with. It doesn't really bolster her game, and there's a ton more magical options throughout the series anyway that would make sense for Zelda to use besides the Goddess Spells(which retroactively she happens to be responsible for, heh). The Medallions probably won't work, though, seeing as they require a sword to begin with, but also don't really have easy ways to interpret them. Ether freezes things, which may be doable at least. Bombos explodes everything in the air, and that's already what Din's Fire is. Quake doesn't... really fit anything, but it could be plausible to implement as something similar to DK's Side B in terms of what it does(embed people into the ground). On the other hand, it'd be a different element from her 3 current specials and would stand out more(as they're Fire, Wind, and Water respectively). But I'm not sure it would actually fit her playstyle that well.

Incidentally the Phantom also doesn't do anything bad other than being an awkward move to add at most. However, I do like the idea of Toon Zelda anyway, and it's her move to begin with, so giving her uses of that while giving Zelda a new Down B also would do some good for her. Just figuring out a good one beyond her past two is the harder part.

i would say turn her neutral into her down and give her light arrows as a new neutral, or perhaps regular arrows

FYI, Hyrule Historia confirmed Twilight Princess Concept Art of Sheik. So yes, she was meant to be in TP. The way the writing is, it's pretty unclear if she had the concept art before Brawl's development or before TP's development. Either way, they still wanted her in TP, which is what led to the drawings. However, we have more interviews too. It looks like the final word is "Sheik has concept art during the development of TP". ...You can't really get more than "meant to be in" than straight-out concept art of the character. Unless you're interpreting it more as "was considered" instead, which is a fair way to look at it. Either way, yeah, the concept art existed during the development of TP for Sheik. Which means there was already a TP Sheik to begin with. Just unused. That's the overall point I was making.

the actual line says it was made for brawl

 

[Yamat08]

Page 174, from doing enough research. Can't find a scan though.

...And there it is. Thanks to this site's old posts, heh.

Yeah, even in the original Japanese text, it appears that Shiek was indeed designed specifically so Twilight Princess's Zelda could transform in Brawl. The English version that fogbadge posted is pretty accurate.

the actual line says it was made for brawl

Though if anyone wants to further dispel any doubt, here's the Japanese text on that page. Put it through a machine translation if you wish (not that I really trust those things myself).
ゼルダは、最初に表情を読めないローブ姿が描かれた。右下のシークは、「トワイライトプリンセス」のゼルダの変身を規定して「大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズX」用に描かれたもの。

 

[Dinoman96]

Sakurai on Sheik on the DOJO!!

Smash Bros. DOJO!!

www.smashbros.com

Sheik doesn’t appear in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but we based her model on a design that was drafted up during the development of that game.

I think Sakurai really meant here is that he asked the TP team to come up with a hypothetical TP Sheik design he could use in Brawl.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It means that Sheik was considered for TP, and even had artwork. Like, it pretty much literally says that on the Dojo. What Historia pretty much tells us is that they at best redesigned her to fit more into Smash, as there was also artwork made for Link, and Ganondorf separately. So she did have a proper design beforehand, it just went unused.

https://www.destructoid.com/eiji-aonuma-on-the-ds-phantom-hourglass-and-smash-bros/ This also covers what they meant. " So they submitted the initial designs, and so it would fit in the Smash Bros. Brawl environment, they’ve had to tweak some of the designs." We've confirmed they were tweaked from the originals. Zelda is the only character who isn't mentioned in that case, likely that she already had artwork being used beforehand by Sakurai?

Basically, the issue is that they had multiple parts to the full story and they were strewn around in different sources, which is what made the explanation confusing. They only covered small bits instead of the whole.

 

[Lenidem]

Whatever happened before the release of the game doesn't change the fact that in the end ("canonically" one might say), this specific Zelda never turned into Sheik. There is also a concept artwork for an adult Toon Link who was never used, and even so we might suppose that this is how Toon Link will look like when he's grown up, I wouldn't take that as a fact. Because if we are going this way, there is no end to it. There was an idea to make Breath of the Wild Link fight against aliens, but in the end he never did.

 

[fogbadge]

It means that Sheik was considered for TP, and even had artwork. Like, it pretty much literally says that on the Dojo. What Historia pretty much tells us is that they at best redesigned her to fit more into Smash, as there was also artwork made for Link, and Ganondorf separately. So she did have a proper design beforehand, it just went unused.

https://www.destructoid.com/eiji-aonuma-on-the-ds-phantom-hourglass-and-smash-bros/ This also covers what they meant. " So they submitted the initial designs, and so it would fit in the Smash Bros. Brawl environment, they’ve had to tweak some of the designs." We've confirmed they were tweaked from the originals. Zelda is the only character who isn't mentioned in that case, likely that she already had artwork being used beforehand by Sakurai?

Basically, the issue is that they had multiple parts to the full story and they were strewn around in different sources, which is what made the explanation confusing. They only covered small bits instead of the whole.

i notice not one of these sources use the phrase "made for twilight princess" its always in reference to brawl

 

[Perkilator]

Well, since we’re talking Zelda, here’s a Young Link rework I cooked up.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

When you think about it, the concept of Toon Link as a character it's just so weird. I mean, it's literally just Link in a different art style. Imagine if in Brawl Link cartoon was the actual basic Link and Twilight princess Link was the unlockable secret character under the name "Realist Link". Or imagine if we had other characters with different art style like "Anime Fox".

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Well, since we’re talking Zelda, here’s a Young Link rework I cooked up.

This has some interesting things in it. That's a nice mix of being faithful to Majora's Mask while also having specials cover some similar ideas to the current iteration. I do have a couple critiques, though. Hopefully that's okay. I know sometimes that's not what people are looking for.

Minor editing thoughts
The moveset doesn't address what happens to the downward facing projectile in Double Cutters when Young Link is standing on the ground. Does it travel along the ground, or does it clank with the floor and disappear?

One thing I would do is swap the specials so that the Goron Pound is down-B and Double Cutters is side-B, partly because those are the inputs that are usually given to those kinds of moves on other characters, and partly because Double Cutters is essentially a boomerang replacement.

Bigger design thoughts
I'm not entirely sure what this version of Young Link is trying to do gameplay-wise. His combo game seems worse and his transition between projectiles and melee seems worse. The tradeoff that I'm seeing is that he probably has better kill confirms out of grab and maybe better zoning depending on the specifics of Double Cutters (that move looks like it makes or breaks the character, tbh). If this Young Link is meant to be a typical zoner, then Goron Pound could use some armor so it can be used defensively. If zoning isn't the intention, then I'm a little confused about what the intention is.

 

[Perkilator]

This has some interesting things in it. That's a nice mix of being faithful to Majora's Mask while also having specials cover some similar ideas to the current iteration. I do have a couple critiques, though. Hopefully that's okay. I know sometimes that's not what people are looking for.

Minor editing thoughts
The moveset doesn't address what happens to the downward facing projectile in Double Cutters when Young Link is standing on the ground. Does it travel along the ground, or does it clank with the floor and disappear?

One thing I would do is swap the specials so that the Goron Pound is down-B and Double Cutters is side-B, partly because those are the inputs that are usually given to those kinds of moves on other characters, and partly because Double Cutters is essentially a boomerang replacement.

Bigger design thoughts
I'm not entirely sure what this version of Young Link is trying to do gameplay-wise. His combo game seems worse and his transition between projectiles and melee seems worse. The tradeoff that I'm seeing is that he probably has better kill confirms out of grab and maybe better zoning depending on the specifics of Double Cutters (that move looks like it makes or breaks the character, tbh). If this Young Link is meant to be a typical zoner, then Goron Pound could use some armor so it can be used defensively. If zoning isn't the intention, then I'm a little confused about what the intention is.

That’s a good question. I’ll answer each one as best I can:

• The Double Cutters are meant to be a defensive move for Young Link; on the ground, they return to him
• Likewise, Gordon Pound as a Side B is meant to be a more straightforward rolling special with an option to clear the space around you if it’s unsafe

That being said, this moveset was just something I do for fun. I don’t really think about competitive viability (for the lack of a better term) and stuff like that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bit late, but I think the only Zelds character who would have a reasonable chance of being cut is Young Link.

Link, Zelda and Ganondorf aren't leaving. Sheik is grandfathered in and a small Link is something the devs think is important and I find Toon Link to be much more likely. The design is very popular and its frequently used. It's the most used art style in the franchise. He's also a two time veteran who didn't get cut when people expected him to.

Young Link does have a lot of merit, but even if there are big differences between him and Toon Link, they ultimately fill the same gameplay niche.

The 5 Zelda characters in Smash 4 seem to be ironclad.

Frankly I'm okay with that though. RIP Young Link though. He will be missed.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Bit late, but I think the only Zelds character who would have a reasonable chance of being cut is Young Link.

Link, Zelda and Ganondorf aren't leaving. Sheik is grandfathered in and a small Link is something the devs think is important and I find Toon Link to be much more likely. The design is very popular and its frequently used. It's the most used art style in the franchise. He's also a two time veteran who didn't get cut when people expected him to.

Young Link does have a lot of merit, but even if there are big differences between him and Toon Link, they ultimately fill the same gameplay niche.

The 5 Zelda characters in Smash 4 seem to be ironclad.

Frankly I'm okay with that though. RIP Young Link though. He will be missed.

As much as I like the guy, I could also see Toon Link being cut if we were looking at a game with a roster of less than 50. He's not a fan favorite in the Smash community, and a small change in roster priority could get him axed. Especially if that priority is harsh on clones/semi-clones. Granted, I do think that Link would be rebalanced as more of a middle ground in that scenario. Kind of like a slightly faster Smash 4 Link.

I do think Toon Link is pretty high up on the keep list compared to other clone/semi-clone characters. It's just that there is a lot of competition now, and there are a lot of characters that feel more important to add than a second Link.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I definitely think Toon Link is the more likely of the smaller Links to stick around. While I personally like Young Link a lot more, at least in terms of Smash, Toon has simply had far more appearances and is the more iconic between the two.

 

[SPEN18]

Both alternate Links could be cut. Realistically, very few clones are completely safe.

I also don't think Sheik really makes much sense anymore (really Melee was the only game where she maybe made sense IMO, but even then I would've rather seen unique Ganondorf unless that wasn't deemed possible back then), but I wouldn't be surprised to see her return. I don't really get why they were so committed to keeping her in 4; but given that they tried to keep ICs even though they ultimately didn't end up working on 3DS, Sheik probably also had work done before they realized transformation characters would have to go. But...still...there are many others who I would've prioritized. Should've been Impa from the start, but alas.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Sheik, much like Jigglypuff, is a character who made sense to add at the time, but who hasn't aged too well. Both ended up having very little importance to their series after their debut, so it wouldn't surprise me to see them cut if the next game goes for a small roster.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No real reason to cut a unique moveset when Sheik already had a design to use at that point. After having it available from TP's Game Development, and then redone, it's pretty simple to have. She's been very popular to play as anyway. We could lose the Child Links though, but the current Link not having the Hookshot changes how you play him as he no longer can use it as a Tether Recovery and you have to completely refigure out his spacing for any throws. The loss of the Gale part of the Boomerang also can alienate some players. He feels a bit too different. It's also nice that he represents one game with another Link who represents a completely different game. I mean, not having any of the Toon representation is silly too. Albeit, Tingle could be brought in, but he's not popular enough worldwide(especially his WW design, compared to his more popular MM design) to justify it for that factor alone.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah at that point, Sheik was a two time veteran who was also extremely popular in previous games. Ice Climbers were the only Melee newcomers who then reappeared in Brawl to not make the jump to Smash 4, and that was purely because of technical issues with the 3DS.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah, looking back at it they've really screwed up the Zelda roster IMO. And refused to ever fix it.
Like, Ganondorf as a Falcon clone, Sheik but still no Impa, all the other one-off types besides Sheik getting shafted by a double-standard multiple times, three Links in Ult, having classic Link converted to BotW Link who is less representative of the character as a whole, deciding that no Champions at all was better than at least one making it in, and on top of that Toon Zelda getting more serious consideration back in Brawl than several of the other options. Even if you don't agree with all of those, I just...have a hard time making sense of it.

 

[Dinoman96]

Life is hard for one-off supporting characters, yo.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Yeah, looking back at it they've really screwed up the Zelda roster IMO. And refused to ever fix it.
Like, Ganondorf as a Falcon clone, Sheik but still no Impa, all the other one-off types besides Sheik getting shafted by a double-standard multiple times, three Links in Ult, having classic Link converted to BotW Link who is less representative of the character as a whole, deciding that no Champions at all was better than at least one making it in, and on top of that Toon Zelda getting more serious consideration back in Brawl than several of the other options. Even if you don't agree with all of those, I just...have a hard time making sense of it.

And people wonder why I think Tingle might be better off repping his spin-off series, a la Yoshi and Wario...

 

[dream1ng]

The Zelda roster is indeed kinda... not good...

Half the characters aren't original. Half are versions of the same character, who all have more or less the same moveset. The main villain is a derivative of a character who isn't from the same series because he was added as an afterthought in one game and has been diversified very slowly over the course of the series despite warranting a unique moveset. Then one of the other two characters is a transformation that, from a character perspective, no one would care about at this point were it not for her longstanding attendance. Meanwhile there are other characters who have proven to have enduring popularity.

And even Zelda's moveset is kinda eh because it was created at a time where she didn't really do much herself, but now she's got her own stuff to work with.

Plus it hasn't received an original newcomer in over twenty years and is now somewhat underrepresented given it being one of Nintendo's "Big Three". There must have been close to ten main Zelda titles since the last time we got an original newcomer. How crazy is that.

If any series could benefit from Smash getting an overhaul, it might actually be this one.

 

[Sucumbio]

For me sheik fills a fighting game... Category? Trope? Type? Whatever the word lol that being fast Ninja type character. Granted we have greNINJA but it's not the same. Prolly cause I've been a Zelda fan from the start and her character has always been a personal favorite...

however! I'll accept her removal IF Hayabusa is in. Otherwise I will be disappoint.

 

[Dinoman96]

Again the issue just boils down to how pretty rarely Sakurai includes non-protagonist type characters, at least ones that aren't clone/deriatives


/






It really is just main reoccuring female leads and top villains/rivals. Arguably, the least four important characters (relative to their series) here are Sheik, Pirahna Plant, and to a lesser extent Rosalina and Bowser Jr. But well, Sheik is only here because of Zelda's transformation gimmick in Melee and has since been grandfathered in. Piranha Plant is just Sakurai's usual wacky teehee surprise fighter, and Jr. and Rosalina (who some people would try compare the Zelda one-offs to) are still reoccuring Mario characters and thus still get tons of presence and visibility, due to there being so many Mario spinoff games. Meawhile, Zelda just has like, Hyrule Warriors.

Yeah it's a shame because Zelda does have a lot of neat one-offs but ultimately, it's apparent to me that Sakurai just doesn't have interest in making those kinds of characters playable. Like **** man, it took massive fan demand to even get Ridley and K. Rool through the door.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Does someone likes the idea of a Big Final Destination and Small Final Destination?

 

[Yamat08]

Recently, I've been thinking: what if we really did get an Ultimate DX scenario, BUT..... Nintendo paywalls some of the content to offset the costs. Of course, many of us are anticipating that this'll be precisely the case with third-party veterans (much like was the case with the third-party Mii costumes in Ultimate). However, what other content could you see getting sold as DLC?

If I were in Nintendo's shoes, I'd lock some of the music tracks behind DLC packs (and not just the music that comes with a certain character's franchise, but also things like a portion of the literal 100+ Mario tracks). Honestly, it kinda surprises me that they could include such a massive soundtrack collection in one game as is (and while some tracks have been cut or shortened over time, the overall BGM count has increased significantly with each Smash, moreso than the roster).

 

[SPEN18]

Most of the requested Zelda one-offs play more significant roles than typical "sidekick" types like Reyn or Falco, at least. Some like Skull Kid are plot-drivers and/or the most memorable/iconic villains of their respective games.
I hate to just resort to the PKMN/FE example, but it's puzzling when several of those characters who get in are themselves one-offs without a likely future beyond their series' current iteration. Protagonist or no (and in the case of PKMN they're not even prototypical protagonist types anyway).
Yes, being a protagonist should weigh more. And yes, bring a recurring character also weighs more. But these aren't everything.

 

[UserKev]

Most of the requested Zelda one-offs play more significant roles than typical "sidekick" types like Reyn or Falco, at least. Some like Skull Kid are plot-drivers and/or the most memorable/iconic villains of their respective games.
I hate to just resort to the PKMN/FE example, but it's puzzling when several of those characters who get in are themselves one-offs without a likely future beyond their series' current iteration. Protagonist or no (and in the case of PKMN they're not even prototypical protagonist types anyway).
Yes, being a protagonist should weigh more. And yes, bring a recurring character also weighs more. But these aren't everything.

Yeah. Its very frustrating how tiring Zelda's circumstances is. Would have been amazing if we had gotten Midna, Ghirahim, etc. I just don't get it. They pass up unique potential for movesets for more Links, Zelda's.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah. Its very frustrating how tiring Zelda's circumstances is. Would have been amazing if we had gotten Midna, Ghirahim, etc. I just don't get it. They pass up unique potential for movesets for more Links, Zelda's.

Oh yeah, it's absolutely the reason why popular characters get ignored. Because they want more Links.

It's totally not because there are time or budget constraints. They just don't like anyone not named Link or Zelda. Totally.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

**** it, AKI-Man for Smash

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no i will not give you any reason why