Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Yamat08]

He’d need Ganondorf’s Melee or Brawl moveset. The sword moves would have to go. I’d love a trident wielding mage Ganondorf that takes elements from all of his incarnations. I love his OoT based design in Ultimate so I hope they keep that at least.

If you're looking for trident Ganondorf, I think they should just release Ganon as a new character by this point.

 

[Gengar84]

If you're looking for trident Ganondorf, I think they should just release Ganon as a new character by this point.

Well the idea was to give Ganondorf’s current moveset to Black Shadow and create an entire new moveset for Ganondorf. Personally, I think he’d be cool as a transomformation style character that can change between Ganondorf and classic pig Ganon but I know some people here hate transform characters.

 

[Yamat08]

Well the idea was to give Ganondorf’s current moveset to Black Shadow and create an entire new moveset for Ganondorf. Personally, I think he’d be cool as a transomformation style character that can change between Ganondorf and classic pig Ganon but I know some people here hate transform characters.

Plus, OOT Ganondorf didn't transform into the trident-wielding version of Ganon. In fact, I think outside of Hyrule Warriors, no version of Ganondorf transformed into the trident-wielding Ganon (and even in HW, Ganon only uses a trident when you use specials while playing as him). And I'd hate to bring up Ridley's old "too big" argument, but trident Ganon does look to be more Bowser-size, rather than the bulking behemoths more suitable for a boss battle that he is in the 3D games (possibly due to the limitations of sprites, but still).

 

[Chuderz]

but they had invested in the series. 6 games and an anime series isnt nothing. but the best the games have done is when falcons in smash. its easy to say if there had been more but if after 6 games they werent seeing the returns they wanted well it makes sense they gave up on it. also your examples of FF14 and NMS are from the era of patching it in post and are MMOs things that benfit from the long term. F-zero was in a time when such things did not happen and building up to similar success over multiple games is going to be more costly. f-zero had its chance and it did better than many but people just lost interest

also success isn’t always a sure sign of a series lifeline. Nintendogs is one of Nintendos top 10 best selling franchises and we’ve haven’t had one of those in a while

I think those 6 games established a dedicated fanbase for a beloved series that is now the focal point of discussion around forgotten Nintendo IP. Again the market forces were not the same 20 years ago as they are today.

I don't see how my examples are less warranted because of them involving the patching of their game. That just all the more illustrates the different industry landscape GX existed in versus the one operating today. The internet was a ****ing fraction of what it is today. The internet hype machine is real and you get bet your ass that Nintendo dedicated social media/publications would be hyping the everlasting **** out of a new F-Zero entry. That could be exactly the kind of word of mouth push the series has always needed. If the game is the best F-Zero game ever made on top of that then I'm 100% certain the series would be a great success.

The pitch I linked to earlier is actually a pretty good take on the game with realistic over the top physics and the damage sustained affecting how your vehicle would control as a consequence. There could be a focus on the rest of development having a super-comprehensive track editor, multiple modes old and new, maybe a new mechanic like jump/ollie and/or tricks (barrel rolls, spins and flips) and most importantly a good online! Many of these ideas are firsts for the series. I'm saying F-Zero deserves one more major shot. Make the best F-Zero game ever. I even have a fun little gimmick idea that I'll go into detail about on a dedicated F-Zero pitch post.

I also don't think it's fair to presume everything Nintendo is involved in needs to sell massively. Plenty of companies would look at F-Zero's numbers as a success. I also somehow doubt Nintendo promoted F-Zero adequately after the first game. The first time I ever heard of F-Zero was thanks to Smash 64. I asked for F-Zero X for my birthday and fell in love with the series. I remember how impressed my older brother was with the game which tells me that F-Zero wasn't even reaching its intended audience.

Nintendogs is also a baffling case of this. The game could be way more comprehensive now than ever before on the Switch's hardware. It could be Nintendo's very down-earth take on the "God Game" genre. Mix breeds, dress up your dogs and share pictures with your friends, have your dogs play with each other, train them to get them into dog shows and compete online.

I personally think a major factor in this problem is that Nintendo needs a massive expansion in staff. I think when people look back on the Switch era they'll start to come to the same conclusion that Nintendo was really lagging behind on their first-party releases. They also need to revive old IP and build upon them. There's no good reason we couldn't have gotten a Golden Sun game in between the wait for mainline Zelda entries for this generation. Golden Sun in general could actually legitimately fill the linear 3D action/puzzle RPG adventure void the Zelda series left behind when they went open-world with it. There's so much potential for deeper lore and worldbuilding and that's just 1 dead IP. Give it a chance Nintendo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If you're looking for trident Ganondorf, I think they should just release Ganon as a new character by this point.

No. Ganon is a Boss. As he should be.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If you're looking for trident Ganondorf, I think they should just release Ganon as a new character by this point.

Yeah. It's really odd how his ALTTP version is completely absent from the series. And it's one of the few who actually works properly as a playable character. It helps he's not actually that big even compared to Link. Closer to what Bowser and DK are, really. Maybe slightly bigger normally, but is super easy to scale.

The only humanoid that works with the Trident really is Phantom Ganon, and that's just ignoring the far more clear and important villain for a quick excuse to throw a weapon in. Ganondorf has never actually wielded the Trident itself in a single canon game. Which makes it odd how Phantom Ganon can suddenly have one, since the Trident doesn't exist in the timeline yet. It resembles a Pike in a lot of ways too, so it might just be a logical weapon due to the Horse he's on, less so anything to do with the Trident canon-wise. It was obviously a reference out-of-universe, though.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The only humanoid that works with the Trident really is Phantom Ganon

Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf.

" Ganondorf has never actually wielded the Trident itself in a single canon game. " covered that beforehand. So doesn't remotely count. Non-canon makes the point moot. There's no reason it'd actually be referenced at this point. Ganondorf's only hope for a weapon is pretty clearly a Sword. No more, no less. ...And it's already done. The only trident wielder is Pig Ganon that has any humanoid features among important characters among the canon options. Phantom Ganon could make for a nice semi-clone of both Pig Ganon and Ganondorf, perhaps. But... that's kind of it.

 

[Gengar84]

Plus, OOT Ganondorf didn't transform into the trident-wielding version of Ganon. In fact, I think outside of Hyrule Warriors, no version of Ganondorf transformed into the trident-wielding Ganon (and even in HW, Ganon only uses a trident when you use specials while playing as him). And I'd hate to bring up Ridley's old "too big" argument, but trident Ganon does look to be more Bowser-size, rather than the bulking behemoths more suitable for a boss battle that he is in the 3D games (possibly due to the limitations of sprites, but still).

Twilight Princess Zelda never transformed into Sheik but that didn’t stop Sakurai from keeping them as a transform character. The only thing that did was the limitations of the 3DS for Smash 4. Even in Ultimate, ALttP Zelda never summons the phantom armor so she is clearly pulling from other sources.

Anyway, I was suggesting pulling from several incarnations of the character rather than limiting it to just a single game. He wouldn’t even need to necessarily transform into pig Ganon in order to take some move inspiration from those appearances such as the trident and flaming bats. Ganondorf and Ganon are the same character after all. That’s no different than King K. Rool taking moves from Kaptain and Baron.

 

[fogbadge]

I think those 6 games established a dedicated fanbase for a beloved series that is now the focal point of discussion around forgotten Nintendo IP. Again the market forces were not the same 20 years ago as they are today.

I don't see how my examples are less warranted because of them involving the patching of their game. That just all the more illustrates the different industry landscape GX existed in versus the one operating today. The internet was a *ing fraction of what it is today. The internet hype machine is real and you get bet your ass that Nintendo dedicated social media/publications would be hyping the everlasting * out of a new F-Zero entry. That could be exactly the kind of word of mouth push the series has always needed. If the game is the best F-Zero game ever made on top of that then I'm 100% certain the series would be a great success.

The pitch I linked to earlier is actually a pretty good take on the game with realistic over the top physics and the damage sustained affecting how your vehicle would control as a consequence. There could be a focus on the rest of development having a super-comprehensive track editor, multiple modes old and new, maybe a new mechanic like jump/ollie and/or tricks (barrel rolls, spins and flips) and most importantly a good online! Many of these ideas are firsts for the series. I'm saying F-Zero deserves one more major shot. Make the best F-Zero game ever. I even have a fun little gimmick idea that I'll go into detail about on a dedicated F-Zero pitch post.

I also don't think it's fair to presume everything Nintendo is involved in needs to sell massively. Plenty of companies would look at F-Zero's numbers as a success. I also somehow doubt Nintendo promoted F-Zero adequately after the first game. The first time I ever heard of F-Zero was thanks to Smash 64. I asked for F-Zero X for my birthday and fell in love with the series. I remember how impressed my older brother was with the game which tells me that F-Zero wasn't even reaching its intended audience.

Nintendogs is also a baffling case of this. The game could be way more comprehensive now than ever before on the Switch's hardware. It could be Nintendo's very down-earth take on the "God Game" genre. Mix breeds, dress up your dogs and share pictures with your friends, have your dogs play with each other, train them to get them into dog shows and compete online.

I personally think a major factor in this problem is that Nintendo needs a massive expansion in staff. I think when people look back on the Switch era they'll start to come to the same conclusion that Nintendo was really lagging behind on their first-party releases. They also need to revive old IP and build upon them. There's no good reason we couldn't have gotten a Golden Sun game in between the wait for mainline Zelda entries for this generation. Golden Sun in general could actually legitimately fill the linear 3D action/puzzle RPG adventure void the Zelda series left behind when they went open-world with it. There's so much potential for deeper lore and worldbuilding and that's just 1 dead IP. Give it a chance Nintendo.

uh huh and where was this dedicated fanbase when the last couple games flopped? you were arguing that the series needed a long term investment so how the markets were back then mattered as much as they do now in such a scenario

again you were arguing for a long term investment that would have needed to start before the era we are in

i dont think nintendo do presume every game needs to be a huge success, theres one or two switch titles they were involved in that i think they saw as rather low key games

you think nintendo is laggin behind with first party titles for the switch? with 6 zeldas, two new, one remake, one remaster, two spin offs. four core series pokemon games, 3 new, 1 remake. 2 kirbys. 2 spaltoons. 2 metroids. 3 fire emblems, 1 new 2 spin offs. 1 animal crossing. 1 smash. a few experimental new IPs and a lot of mario games as usual, 1 main series, 1 kart, 1 party, 3 sports, 2 rabbids crossovers etc. 1 new yoshi and 1 dk port. 2 new xenoblades, 1 port. 1 pikmin port.

 

[Chuderz]

uh huh and where was this dedicated fanbase when the last couple games flopped? you were arguing that the series needed a long term investment so how the markets were back then mattered as much as they do now in such a scenario

again you were arguing for a long term investment that would have needed to start before the era we are in

i dont think nintendo do presume every game needs to be a huge success, theres one or two switch titles they were involved in that i think they saw as rather low key games

you think nintendo is laggin behind with first party titles for the switch? with 6 zeldas, two new, one remake, one remaster, two spin offs. four core series pokemon games, 3 new, 1 remake. 2 kirbys. 2 spaltoons. 2 metroids. 3 fire emblems, 1 new 2 spin offs. 1 animal crossing. 1 smash. a few experimental new IPs and a lot of mario games as usual, 1 main series, 1 kart, 1 party, 3 sports, 2 rabbids crossovers etc. 1 new yoshi and 1 dk port. 2 new xenoblades, 1 port. 1 pikmin port.

They were in 2003 and 2004 respectively and the latter wasn't even released outside of Japan.

To see how markets were back then? I don't really think I made that point. The point I made was that successive entries into the series could have very likely compounded upon each other to build towards a future greater success and I still stand by that. That didn't happen though so the argument I'm making in regards to reviving the series now is completely separate to that.

I definitely have some opinions on your list of Nintendo's achievements this gen.

6 news Zelda? No 2 and the 2nd one isn't even out yet. 4 core Pokemon games are nothing in my opinion. They sell extremely well regardless so it's mandatory that they get put to the market as an annual release but one of them was literally outsourced and again they're nothing substantial in regards to development. The Pokemon series in general is really pathetic. I think in 2 years' time people will see Legends Arceus for how insubstantial it blatantly is. Invoking Metroid Prime 4 in regards to my argument about Nintendo lagging behind their first-party releases is laughable and Dread was a 10-hour game that they outsourced. I'm going to ignore the ports because they're inherently supplementary material and shouldn't be counted as legitimate dedicated releases like you doing just to puff up the numbers by any means necessary. Then of course the standard fair of Mario spin-offs, Splatoon, Animal Crossing and the like. It's taken us 5 years to get Mario Kart DLC well after the game was a smashing success. Just as long to get a return of Strikers and still no Sluggers or even a new sport like Football, Hockey or Basketball. Mario party has 2 releases actually in one of the most botched release strategies ever for the series by separating both playerbases. This will also inevitably be the case with the Splatoon 2 and 3 playerbases. The Rabbid spinoffs are nice but aren't exactly major releases and again it's outsourced and yeah we got a cute little Yoshi game and a couple little romps with Kirby and Mario. Neat. Oh and Smash of course.

So yeah instead of reviving any of their long-shelved series they're opting to do Splatoon again. These are just my overall opinions on the games though. Basically I don't feel ports are major releases and that's especially my feeling the older the port is. I don't think Pokemon releases are substantial, noteworthy games with them being annual bare-minimum effort releases and the standard releases (Mario spinoffs and Zelda) are just that standard and don't really factor into my argument about Nintendo's output.

You forgot to mention one of their godawful major releases was a time-gated bare-minimum effort port of the first 3 3D Mario games. That's what I'm saying. Nintendo is content to just recycle past successes instead of investing in potential new ones.

I think they're capable of much more than they've been doing.

I'm a little bewildered by this exchange because clearly you admire the company's work but you're arguing against me supporting the idea people like me wanting them to diversify their portfolio by reviving their previously beloved franchises. I don't get what Nintendo's profits mean to you but they mean almost nothing to me. I'll pay their bottom line some regard to strengthen my argument but I'm a gamer first and foremost and that's what I care about. I'm simply proposing what I feel would be a better environment of content for the Nintendofan and gaming landscape as a whole versus rationalizing Nintendo's actual decisions because I already know why they do what they do. They want the most profits for the least investment like any other corporation and games (like all other products) and consumers (of all other products as well) suffer as a result of this destructive and counterintuitive business strategy. Under these restrictive conditions we get DLC ported from a cellphone game 5 years later for a Mario Kart that's already 8 years old now and no new F-Zero in sight.

I guess I just find the whole tired line of them "looking for new and unique experiences for our players" to so blatantly not match the reality of their output that I find it necessary to criticize them for it in hopes that maybe it'll get better but mostly to just demonstrate this contradiction of theirs as best as I can articulate it.

It sucks and I think I've said my peace.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Ganondorf has never actually wielded the Trident itself in a single canon game.

There's a pretty decent chance that's going to change in BotW 2, though, if the cave drawings in the trailer are any indication. No guarantee, but it would be a little strange to set him up that way and just ditch it once we actually see him.

It's going to be interesting to see how that game changes our perception of what Ganondorf has to offer. Especially considering it's the first canon Zelda game to feature him since 2006 and is the most likely source for inspiration if he does manage to get a rework in the next Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

They were in 2003 and 2004 respectively and the latter wasn't even released outside of Japan.

To see how markets were back then? I don't really think I made that point. The point I made was that successive entries into the series could have very likely compounded upon each other to build towards a future greater success and I still stand by that. That didn't happen though so the argument I'm making in regards to reviving the series now is completely separate to that.

I definitely have some opinions on your list of Nintendo's achievements this gen.

6 news Zelda? No 2 and the 2nd one isn't even out yet. 4 core Pokemon games are nothing in my opinion. They sell extremely well regardless so it's mandatory that they get put to the market as an annual release but one of them was literally outsourced and again they're nothing substantial in regards to development. The Pokemon series in general is really pathetic. I think in 2 years' time people will see Legends Arceus for how insubstantial it blatantly is. Invoking Metroid Prime 4 in regards to my argument about Nintendo lagging behind their first-party releases is laughable and Dread was a 10-hour game that they outsourced. I'm going to ignore the ports because they're inherently supplementary material and shouldn't be counted as legitimate dedicated releases like you doing just to puff up the numbers by any means necessary. Then of course the standard fair of Mario spin-offs, Splatoon, Animal Crossing and the like. It's taken us 5 years to get Mario Kart DLC well after the game was a smashing success. Just as long to get a return of Strikers and still no Sluggers or even a new sport like Football, Hockey or Basketball. Mario party has 2 releases actually in one of the most botched release strategies ever for the series by separating both playerbases. This will also inevitably be the case with the Splatoon 2 and 3 playerbases. The Rabbid spinoffs are nice but aren't exactly major releases and again it's outsourced and yeah we got a cute little Yoshi game and a couple little romps with Kirby and Mario. Neat. Oh and Smash of course.

So yeah instead of reviving any of their long-shelved series they're opting to do Splatoon again. These are just my overall opinions on the games though. Basically I don't feel ports are major releases and that's especially my feeling the older the port is. I don't think Pokemon releases are substantial, noteworthy games with them being annual bare-minimum effort releases and the standard releases (Mario spinoffs and Zelda) are just that standard and don't really factor into my argument about Nintendo's output.

You forgot to mention one of their godawful major releases was a time-gated bare-minimum effort port of the first 3 3D Mario games. That's what I'm saying. Nintendo is content to just recycle past successes instead of investing in potential new ones.

I think they're capable of much more than they've been doing.

I'm a little bewildered by this exchange because clearly you admire the company's work but you're arguing against me supporting the idea people like me wanting them to diversify their portfolio by reviving their previously beloved franchises. I don't get what Nintendo's profits mean to you but they mean almost nothing to me. I'll pay their bottom line some regard to strengthen my argument but I'm a gamer first and foremost and that's what I care about. I'm simply proposing what I feel would be a better environment of content for the Nintendofan and gaming landscape as a whole versus rationalizing Nintendo's actual decisions because I already know why they do what they do. They want the most profits for the least investment like any other corporation and games (like all other products) and consumers (of all other products as well) suffer as a result of this destructive and counterintuitive business strategy. Under these restrictive conditions we get DLC ported from a cellphone game 5 years later for a Mario Kart that's already 8 years old now and no new F-Zero in sight.

I guess I just find the whole tired line of them "looking for new and unique experiences for our players" to so blatantly not match the reality of their output that I find it necessary to criticize them for it in hopes that maybe it'll get better but mostly to just demonstrate this contradiction of theirs as best as I can articulate it.

It sucks and I think I've said my peace.

the very fact that they werent released outside of japan points to nintendo thinking that the games wouldnt have sold outside of japan or that they didnt do well there. reviving the series is a gamble one that they may not be willing to take and your assurance that they games will be a success wont matter to nintendo cause they dont do hypotheticals as regie once said in regards to petteions "1000 signatures does not mean 1000 sales"

i didnt say 6 new zeldas i said 2 new 1 remake 1 remaster and 2 spin offs. and you dont want to count pokemon? you cant go around complaining theyre not releasing many first party games if you dont want to include one of their biggest series. also theres something deeply ironic about telling me not to count outsourced games while suggesting they could do the same for f-zero and saying they should make a new golden sun which isnt made in house by nintendo. see your claim that people will look back and think that there werent many first party titles are based on your own selective criteria.

did you miss the thing were nintendo over the last year revived 3 dormant franchises? you know famicom detective club which was more dormant than fzero, big brain academy and advance wars? i aslo think anyone who calls spin offs or pokemon games as low effort has little no grasp of how complex programming, animation and 3d modelling is.

again calling out super mario 3d all stars seem a bit off when youre unwilling to count half the new mario titles they actually made.

no what im aruing against is they idea that f-zero would be an instant success when it was clearly struggling to stay afloat. im also arguing against the idea of saying that nintendo havent made many first party titles while being so unwilling to count half of them. ports sure but theres been loads of non ports as well. the point is that nintendo have been doing the exact things youre saying they havent. theyve revived a few series a released a ton of first party games.

you cant claim nintendo arent living up to the promise of new and unique gaming for players when your unwilling to count half the stuff theyve had a hand in. thats just twisting the facts to prove your point. really i think the problem isnt nintendo arent making enough games so much as nintendo arent making games that i want to play.

" Ganondorf has never actually wielded the Trident itself in a single canon game. " covered that beforehand. So doesn't remotely count. Non-canon makes the point moot. There's no reason it'd actually be referenced at this point. Ganondorf's only hope for a weapon is pretty clearly a Sword. No more, no less.

yeah itd be like zelda using the goddess spells or ness and lucas using pk fire and thunder

more to the point the sword he’s currently using he never used in a canon game

 

[chocolatejr9]

Somebody leaked Bandana Waddle Dee for Smash:

Waddle Dee's Big Adventure#kirby #smash #smashbrosultimate #smashbros #nintendo #nintendoswitch #KirbyandtheForgottenLand pic.twitter.com/Lk3wmeKD7v

— Wooden Plank Studios (@WoodenPlank) March 23, 2022

 

[ForsakenM]

Speaking of which... Where the heck is DK right now?

I feel like the most notable thing that's happened to the franchise in five years is getting a character in Smash.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Just give Furukawa and his company a little more time.

I will say though, I would expect a number of the things we are looking for to other just barely make it out ahead of time or to be pushed back to the new console. I feel as though Prime 4 and MK9 are perfect examples of this.

 

[Gengar84]

I know Bandana Dee is his own character so he’s not really applicable to this scenario but he did make me think of something. If Sakurai was to go with another basic minion similar to Pirahna Plant, are there any that you guys would like to see? I love Goombas but it would feel wrong if Mario got two in a row. A few other options that could be fun are Bugzzy, Moblin, Tonberry, Slime, and Prinny but there are tons of other great choices.

 

[JOJONumber691]

He should have Ganondorf's moveset, so Ganondorf can get a completely new moveset.

Nah, if Ganondorf ever gets a new moveset, his current set should go to Senator Armstrong from Metal Gear Rising.

 

[Sucumbio]

I know Bandana Dee is his own character so he’s not really applicable to this scenario but he did make me think of something. If Sakurai was to go with another basic minion similar to Pirahna Plant, are there any that you guys would like to see? I love Goombas but it would feel wrong if Mario got two in a row. A few other options that could be fun are Bugzzy, Moblin, Tonberry, Slime, and Prinny but there are tons of other great choices.

Sure!

Space Pirate, Moblin, Axe Lord, Sniper Joe, Hammer Bro, ..... to name a few.

 

[fogbadge]

I know Bandana Dee is his own character so he’s not really applicable to this scenario but he did make me think of something. If Sakurai was to go with another basic minion similar to Pirahna Plant, are there any that you guys would like to see? I love Goombas but it would feel wrong if Mario got two in a row. A few other options that could be fun are Bugzzy, Moblin, Tonberry, Slime, and Prinny but there are tons of other great choices.

well id love shy guys and boos. all the zelda ones. bulborbs would be a good way to represent pikmin. also chilly would be great

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I know Bandana Dee is his own character so he’s not really applicable to this scenario but he did make me think of something. If Sakurai was to go with another basic minion similar to Pirahna Plant, are there any that you guys would like to see? I love Goombas but it would feel wrong if Mario got two in a row. A few other options that could be fun are Bugzzy, Moblin, Tonberry, Slime, and Prinny but there are tons of other great choices.

Honestly I always thought that a generic Waddle dee could make a way better character than Bandana dee even before I saw Piranha plant. There's just so much more that you could with a generic waddle dee like obviously having the spear, but also the parasol, a bow, throwing blocks or missiles like in epic yarn, or even having their small mecha from planet robobot.

Aside from that I would also say the Octoling, although their roles got expand in the octo expansion so I'm not sure if they really count as generic enemies. Shy guy could also work well considering the amount of variations there is of them.

 

[Ivander]

If Sakurai was to go with another basic minion similar to Pirahna Plant, are there any that you guys would like to see?

Shy Guy.

Slimes, Chocobos and Guardians are a couple other ones I'd be good with.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Honestly I always thought that a generic Waddle dee could make a way better character than Bandana dee even before I saw Piranha plant. There's just so much more that you could with a generic waddle dee like obviously having the spear, but also the parasol, a bow, throwing blocks or missiles like in epic yarn, or even having their small mecha from planet robobot.

Aside from that I would also say the Octoling, although their roles got expand in the octo expansion so I'm not sure if they really count as generic enemies. Shy guy could also work well considering the amount of variations there is of them.

I'm curious about why you think a normal Waddle Dee would be better than Bandana Dee beyond just having more things to pull from. Mostly because Bandana Dee's one thing is very robust in comparison to any of the individual things a normal Waddle Dee would do, and would fill a Smash moveset with ease. Is there a problem with originality, series representation, something else?

Personally, if it comes down to a character who can use 100 tools 1 way or a similar one who can use 1 tool 100 ways (hyperbole, I know), I'd pick the guy who has the better mastery of the single tool. They are far more likely to get past the surface level and do unique things with it, while also being more likely to feel cohesive. That's my take, though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Twilight Princess Zelda never transformed into Sheik but that didn’t stop Sakurai from keeping them as a transform character. The only thing that did was the limitations of the 3DS for Smash 4. Even in Ultimate, ALttP Zelda never summons the phantom armor so she is clearly pulling from other sources.

This doesn't really compare, though. Zelda already transformed into Sheik as a canon ability. It's just being reused. That, and it's unclear if TP Sheik was created wholesale for Brawl or if she was intended to be in TP but scrapped. Hyrule Historia's wording is very vague about it. Both are plausible interpretations(the Japanese is the same as the English meaning too).

There's a pretty decent chance that's going to change in BotW 2, though, if the cave drawings in the trailer are any indication. No guarantee, but it would be a little strange to set him up that way and just ditch it once we actually see him.

It's going to be interesting to see how that game changes our perception of what Ganondorf has to offer. Especially considering it's the first canon Zelda game to feature him since 2006 and is the most likely source for inspiration if he does manage to get a rework in the next Smash.

Considering it's a corpse? That could be Phantom Ganon. The problem is a major lack of details and that we have a character who pretty much is the same concept as a humanoid Ganon who uses a Trident, but not Ganondorf. Wouldn't even be a twist. He's been unused lately due to Ganondorf seeing a lack of use. That's why I don't take this point too seriously. There's more than one plausible explanation. It could literally just be regular Ganon but interpreted as a human based upon the legends known of the evil of Ganondorf too. Though this one sounds less plausible than the other two. Point being, it's too vague. Sure, Ganondorf might finally wield a Trident in a canon game. The closest is the story during Four Swords Adventures... but he never wields it as Ganondorf either way. We just know he sought it and still had a humanoid form during the story told to us... which doesn't give us a clear indication of what entirely happened.

yeah itd be like zelda using the goddess spells or ness and lucas using pk fire and thunder

more to the point the sword he’s currently using he never used in a canon game

First one doesn't really compare yet again. These are unique situations where there's actual reasoning behind it. Zelda, for one thing, is a spellcaster, but has no actual spells to really use in fighting beyond Telepathy, Transform... and opening doors/barriers. Only one got used. For the most part, her psychic abilities are kind of similar to her throws. She had no actual options to work with while keeping her intended character design in the core Zelda series(Magic User). Ness/Lucas are a bit different. They're intended to represent their entire game, and needed actual workable PSI attacks to make up a proper moveset. The only special of decent use he could've had is his Teleport, but that's just a huge running move that... doesn't do anything useful nor have any real good applications. And there's no Side B yet. PK Thunder worked surprisingly well in concept, while giving him a unique projectile. PK Fire is pretty easy when he was built off of Mario to begin with. PSI Shield worked fine for what it needed to be. Really, none of the spells or PSI attacks save maybe Shield actually work the same way as the games.

In a twist, those are Zelda's spells anyway canon-wise, due to her being the reincarnation of the original Goddess. Sakurai simply chose it right multiple years before it'd be official. But seriously, what actual magical specials could she seriously use at that point? She has no actual real fighting abilities or abilities in general outside of the CD-i games at that point. It's notable when her only other canon ability is using a Phantom to attack in some way.

Now for the second one, this is a more feasible point. However, in context, Ganondorf only got into Smash because of the Tech Demo Model, where the sword originated from. That particular Sword is designed for that particular interpretation of Ganondorf, and is a reused model that already had animations in general to look at to get an idea of how he can fight. HIs only other swords were completely unusable for this. Sakurai isn't going to look at HW for weapons when it's not even a Ganondorf model he's trying to use. Besides that, Ganondorf's swordplay is pretty much the style of the Tech Demo character, so the only thing he'd be getting is... a two-sword style? That's a lot harder to work with than a single-sword style. So it'd require a massive rewrite. Meanwhile using a single sword with easy animations makes a lot of sense. Especially as they resemble his old Final Smashes in at least two cases. His Down Smash has the same hook back and forth movement, but with clearly different hitboxes. His Up Smash is pretty much the same idea overall, but it does have a better hitbox(I never compared their power though). Only the Forward Smash is highly different, though the concept isn't changed that much... but just about every Forward Smash is the same concept anyway. Hit in front of you to do massive damage.

That said, you are right it isn't canon. But in context... it was the only weapon to use for the model. Same reason TP Ganondorf only used the Sword of Sages. It was the only model that already was easy to work with. Assets are more important than "cause we can", after all. They'd have to make an all new model for any other weapon, and don't have any easy footage to rig up stuff, are using a weapon(for instance the Trident) that doesn't have a similar model in-game to build off animations from(the closest is Palutena's Staff, though it's a highly different model from the Trident too. It's closer to the Pike design that Phantom Ganon has used, otherwise).

Anyway, we got a long time before the next Smash, and there's no reason to believe he'd play completely different, so only a broadsword-like weapon fits his style. Could things change? Sure. But it's really hard to believe that when no character has gotten that extreme of an overhaul to be an entirely different moveset. Yes, some changes have been pretty major before, which requires re-learning. But it's nothing like say, Ganondorf suddenly playing like Link does. That kind of change has never existed.

 

[Gengar84]

This doesn't really compare, though. Zelda already transformed into Sheik as a canon ability. It's just being reused. That, and it's unclear if TP Sheik was created wholesale for Brawl or if she was intended to be in TP but scrapped. Hyrule Historia's wording is very vague about it. Both are plausible interpretations(the Japanese is the same as the English meaning too).


Considering it's a corpse? That could be Phantom Ganon. The problem is a major lack of details and that we have a character who pretty much is the same concept as a humanoid Ganon who uses a Trident, but not Ganondorf. Wouldn't even be a twist. He's been unused lately due to Ganondorf seeing a lack of use. That's why I don't take this point too seriously. There's more than one plausible explanation. It could literally just be regular Ganon but interpreted as a human based upon the legends known of the evil of Ganondorf too. Though this one sounds less plausible than the other two. Point being, it's too vague. Sure, Ganondorf might finally wield a Trident in a canon game. The closest is the story during Four Swords Adventures... but he never wields it as Ganondorf either way. We just know he sought it and still had a humanoid form during the story told to us... which doesn't give us a clear indication of what entirely happened.


First one doesn't really compare yet again. These are unique situations where there's actual reasoning behind it. Zelda, for one thing, is a spellcaster, but has no actual spells to really use in fighting beyond Telepathy, Transform... and opening doors/barriers. Only one got used. For the most part, her psychic abilities are kind of similar to her throws. She had no actual options to work with while keeping her intended character design in the core Zelda series(Magic User). Ness/Lucas are a bit different. They're intended to represent their entire game, and needed actual workable PSI attacks to make up a proper moveset. The only special of decent use he could've had is his Teleport, but that's just a huge running move that... doesn't do anything useful nor have any real good applications. And there's no Side B yet. PK Thunder worked surprisingly well in concept, while giving him a unique projectile. PK Fire is pretty easy when he was built off of Mario to begin with. PSI Shield worked fine for what it needed to be. Really, none of the spells or PSI attacks save maybe Shield actually work the same way as the games.

In a twist, those are Zelda's spells anyway canon-wise, due to her being the reincarnation of the original Goddess. Sakurai simply chose it right multiple years before it'd be official. But seriously, what actual magical specials could she seriously use at that point? She has no actual real fighting abilities or abilities in general outside of the CD-i games at that point. It's notable when her only other canon ability is using a Phantom to attack in some way.

Now for the second one, this is a more feasible point. However, in context, Ganondorf only got into Smash because of the Tech Demo Model, where the sword originated from. That particular Sword is designed for that particular interpretation of Ganondorf, and is a reused model that already had animations in general to look at to get an idea of how he can fight. HIs only other swords were completely unusable for this. Sakurai isn't going to look at HW for weapons when it's not even a Ganondorf model he's trying to use. Besides that, Ganondorf's swordplay is pretty much the style of the Tech Demo character, so the only thing he'd be getting is... a two-sword style? That's a lot harder to work with than a single-sword style. So it'd require a massive rewrite. Meanwhile using a single sword with easy animations makes a lot of sense. Especially as they resemble his old Final Smashes in at least two cases. His Down Smash has the same hook back and forth movement, but with clearly different hitboxes. His Up Smash is pretty much the same idea overall, but it does have a better hitbox(I never compared their power though). Only the Forward Smash is highly different, though the concept isn't changed that much... but just about every Forward Smash is the same concept anyway. Hit in front of you to do massive damage.

That said, you are right it isn't canon. But in context... it was the only weapon to use for the model. Same reason TP Ganondorf only used the Sword of Sages. It was the only model that already was easy to work with. Assets are more important than "cause we can", after all. They'd have to make an all new model for any other weapon, and don't have any easy footage to rig up stuff, are using a weapon(for instance the Trident) that doesn't have a similar model in-game to build off animations from(the closest is Palutena's Staff, though it's a highly different model from the Trident too. It's closer to the Pike design that Phantom Ganon has used, otherwise).

Anyway, we got a long time before the next Smash, and there's no reason to believe he'd play completely different, so only a broadsword-like weapon fits his style. Could things change? Sure. But it's really hard to believe that when no character has gotten that extreme of an overhaul to be an entirely different moveset. Yes, some changes have been pretty major before, which requires re-learning. But it's nothing like say, Ganondorf suddenly playing like Link does. That kind of change has never existed.

It is true that Ganondorf has never used a trident in his human form a mainline Zelda game but I think you’re missing one important point. Ganondorf and Ganon are the same character, whether he is in human form or pig form. Any skills he can use in one form, he should theoretically be able to use in the other. As long as the character canonically used those moves at some point, Sakurai should be able to use those moves in his moveset.

Like I mentioned earlier, I don’t see how that’s any different from pulling moves from all three incarnations of K. Rool. King K. Rool never used the blunderbuss or the helicopter pack but Sakurai took inspiration from all three DKC games to make one moveset. There’s also the other point that Ultimate Zelda is based on ALttP but summons the phantom armor for her down special, which she could never use in that incarnation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It is true that Ganondorf has never used a trident in his human form a mainline Zelda game but I think you’re missing one important point. Ganondorf and Ganon are the same character, whether he is in human form or pig form. Any skills he can use in one form, he should theoretically be able to use in the other. As long as the character canonically used those moves at some point, Sakurai should be able to use those moves in his moveset. Like I mentioned earlier, I don’t see how that’s any different from pulling moves from all three incarnations of K. Rool. King K. Rool never used the blunderbuss or the helicopter pack but Sakurai took inspiration from all three DKC games to make one moveset.

Same person, different characters with different skillsets. This is a Fighting Game. Every single character is a separate entity in how they work. Whether they're the same person or not doesn't actually matter in any single case. The reuse of abilities is due to having nearly the same model and/or bodyshape(or sometimes extremely similar). Among all the clones, only a few are actual logical to share the same moves/animations; Luigi(who was identical to Mario bar color at first), Dr. Mario(cause he is another version of Mario), Lucas(because he and Ness exist to represent the Mother series in general, not just themselves), and Wolf(multiple times it's shown he's very similar to Fox in terms of certain abilities in the series. And he is the most different of all mentioned). Dark Pit is an actual clone of Pit, and Lucina is a bit off as she only dresses up as Marth. Now let's note some of those who use many assets;

• Ness: Redone from Mario. Really, they mostly share a bit of animations in some normals(like a similar Jab Combo, Down Tilt, Up Tilt, and even their Neutral B has similarities in function. As they both go downwards in some way.)
• Jigglypuff: Near identical model, but plays pretty different overall due to the core specials.
• Ganondorf: Same basic bodyshape as Captain Falcon, which made him a logical choice for a quick clone. Despite this, plays pretty much entirely differently in practice, only sharing animations. Only two of his moves even to this day were ever awkward(Gerudo Dragon, as it doesn't do much other than resemble his dark magic to begin with, but has no power behind it, the core of his abilities shown as a fighting ability. That is, that isn't straight-out magic. ...And Dark Dive, which doesn't fit to begin with. Like, um... he does teleport, but he doesn't really do much grappling akin to that. It's the only move that doesn't actually fit him well, animations or just in general). Despite this, Dark Dive isn't bad persay. The only bad move he has outright is Volcano Kick, and the immense power... fits well.
• Chrom: An interesting case with being Roy's Echo. However, what's notable about him is that he didn't get into Smash for "being too similar to Ike and Marth". Coincidentally he takes after Roy, who is basically a cross between Ike and Marth's playstyle nowadays. Has a sweet spot, but also has certain power moves(like his Flare Blade, which Eruption was obviously built off of). Thus, now he does happen to play as a cross between them.

It might seem like a tangent, but the point is being the same person doesn't actually matter if they're a completely different bodyshape. They aren't going to share moves or suddenly take from each other for the sake of it. Ganondorf is a sword wielder and at most needed a proper sword option, which works far better with his moveset's design. Could he have used a Trident instead if he was in Brawl? Sure. ...But he's pretty slow in TP, so it might not have really made sense in that case. Sword of Sages barely was usable as a proper weapon in Smash for his character design(regardless of being a Melee character first). WW Ganondorf wouldn't make much sense with the Trident either. He already is a very agile character who is a two sword master. That said, the Trident could potentially fit him better since it can be used in unique ways, including speed-based moves. Not unlike a Bo-Staff in terms of how a character moves(though obviously the attacks are different). Besides that, Ganondorf didn't even show any Trident usage till way later on. And he still doesn't even use the one Phantom Ganon uses(or one that's... similar), which is odd, since that's apparently the only tie Ganondorf ever had to a Trident(and might be the only reason we knew he sought it. Cause his personally made clone was imagined with one.). Only caveat is that Shadow Ganon has a completely different Trident in Link's Awakening for some reason. Who knows why.

They were both designed to be completely different in how they work. They only have the ability to generally use magic and have immense power naturally(mainly due to the Triforce of Power). That's all they have in actual common among the forms. And Ganon himself has multiple versions, including ones who have no magical skills and are just power-based(TP Ganon and Puppet Ganon). Hell, Ganondorf in WW does no magical moves either and only physical attacks... but he's blatantly capable of magic regardless as he's the same one from OOT. TP Ganondorf on the other hand is a different version of the same person.

That said, I don't believe that's a good enough logic. Not when there's actual true wielders of the Trident who already have capabilities usable and it wouldn't even add to Ganondorf's moveset at this point. It's already been upgraded and formatted in a logical way that fits his actual weapon type. Throwing in the Trident for the sake of it... doesn't actually work. Why not just use Ganon at that point? The particular one has never existed in the game. That, and let's note that we see even in Adventure Mode, Ganon and Ganondorf are different spirits, so they are treated outright as different characters in Ultimate at that point. Though a lot are too. Meaning that "same character" really never applies to Smash consistently. Like, the only ones who shared an ability at best were Zelda and Shiek's old Final Smash. While it does apply to some of the Links, they're both wielders of the Triforce anyway, and... they aren't the same character to begin with. Hell, Zelda and Sheik no longer are. To clarify more on Spirits, they put them in while pretty much making it blatant that every Spirit is a particular Character in the Universe, separated entirely. So if you look at the list, there's literally 3 Ganons(Ganondorf OOT, Ganon OOT, and Ganondorf TP) as separate entities. Thus, them suddenly sharing abilities just cause of that doesn't actually really connect very well.

 

[Gengar84]

Same person, different characters with different skillsets. This is a Fighting Game. Every single character is a separate entity in how they work. Whether they're the same person or not doesn't actually matter in any single case. The reuse of abilities is due to having nearly the same model and/or bodyshape(or sometimes extremely similar). Among all the clones, only a few are actual logical to share the same moves/animations; Luigi(who was identical to Mario bar color at first), Dr. Mario(cause he is another version of Mario), Lucas(because he and Ness exist to represent the Mother series in general, not just themselves), and Wolf(multiple times it's shown he's very similar to Fox in terms of certain abilities in the series. And he is the most different of all mentioned). Dark Pit is an actual clone of Pit, and Lucina is a bit off as she only dresses up as Marth. Now let's note some of those who use many assets;

• Ness: Redone from Mario. Really, they mostly share a bit of animations in some normals(like a similar Jab Combo, Down Tilt, Up Tilt, and even their Neutral B has similarities in function. As they both go downwards in some way.)
• Jigglypuff: Near identical model, but plays pretty different overall due to the core specials.
• Ganondorf: Same basic bodyshape as Captain Falcon, which made him a logical choice for a quick clone. Despite this, plays pretty much entirely differently in practice, only sharing animations. Only two of his moves even to this day were ever awkward(Gerudo Dragon, as it doesn't do much other than resemble his dark magic to begin with, but has no power behind it, the core of his abilities shown as a fighting ability. That is, that isn't straight-out magic. ...And Dark Dive, which doesn't fit to begin with. Like, um... he does teleport, but he doesn't really do much grappling akin to that. It's the only move that doesn't actually fit him well, animations or just in general). Despite this, Dark Dive isn't bad persay. The only bad move he has outright is Volcano Kick, and the immense power... fits well.
• Chrom: An interesting case with being Roy's Echo. However, what's notable about him is that he didn't get into Smash for "being too similar to Ike and Marth". Coincidentally he takes after Roy, who is basically a cross between Ike and Marth's playstyle nowadays. Has a sweet spot, but also has certain power moves(like his Flare Blade, which Eruption was obviously built off of). Thus, now he does happen to play as a cross between them.

It might seem like a tangent, but the point is being the same person doesn't actually matter if they're a completely different bodyshape. They aren't going to share moves or suddenly take from each other for the sake of it. Ganondorf is a sword wielder and at most needed a proper sword option, which works far better with his moveset's design. Could he have used a Trident instead if he was in Brawl? Sure. ...But he's pretty slow in TP, so it might not have really made sense in that case. Sword of Sages barely was usable as a proper weapon in Smash for his character design(regardless of being a Melee character first). WW Ganondorf wouldn't make much sense with the Trident either. He already is a very agile character who is a two sword master. That said, the Trident could potentially fit him better since it can be used in unique ways, including speed-based moves. Not unlike a Bo-Staff in terms of how a character moves(though obviously the attacks are different). Besides that, Ganondorf didn't even show any Trident usage till way later on. And he still doesn't even use the one Phantom Ganon uses(or one that's... similar), which is odd, since that's apparently the only tie Ganondorf ever had to a Trident(and might be the only reason we knew he sought it. Cause his personally made clone was imagined with one.). Only caveat is that Shadow Ganon has a completely different Trident in Link's Awakening for some reason. Who knows why.

They were both designed to be completely different in how they work. They only have the ability to generally use magic and have immense power naturally(mainly due to the Triforce of Power). That's all they have in actual common among the forms. And Ganon himself has multiple versions, including ones who have no magical skills and are just power-based(TP Ganon and Puppet Ganon). Hell, Ganondorf in WW does no magical moves either and only physical attacks... but he's blatantly capable of magic regardless as he's the same one from OOT. TP Ganondorf on the other hand is a different version of the same person.

That said, I don't believe that's a good enough logic. Not when there's actual true wielders of the Trident who already have capabilities usable and it wouldn't even add to Ganondorf's moveset at this point. It's already been upgraded and formatted in a logical way that fits his actual weapon type. Throwing in the Trident for the sake of it... doesn't actually work. Why not just use Ganon at that point? The particular one has never existed in the game. That, and let's note that we see even in Adventure Mode, Ganon and Ganondorf are different spirits, so they are treated outright as different characters in Ultimate at that point. Though a lot are too. Meaning that "same character" really never applies to Smash consistently. Like, the only ones who shared an ability at best were Zelda and Shiek's old Final Smash. While it does apply to some of the Links, they're both wielders of the Triforce anyway, and... they aren't the same character to begin with. Hell, Zelda and Sheik no longer are. To clarify more on Spirits, they put them in while pretty much making it blatant that every Spirit is a particular Character in the Universe, separated entirely. So if you look at the list, there's literally 3 Ganons(Ganondorf OOT, Ganon OOT, and Ganondorf TP) as separate entities. Thus, them suddenly sharing abilities just cause of that doesn't actually really connect very well.

I think it all comes down to personal opinion in the end. I do see your point but I don’t really think it’s a problem. Nothing about Ganondorf’s humanoid form prohibits him from using a weapon like a trident or the flaming bat projectiles. Like I’ve mentioned, K. Rool is the perfect analogy here. King K. Rool, Kaptain K. Rool, and Baron K. Roolenstein are all the same “person” but are three different characters with their own completely original skill sets in the DKC trilogy. Sakurai incorporated elements from all three into one moveset for Ultimate. I don’t understand how pulling moves from classic Ganon and various forms of Ganondorf would be any different. The original premise was to create an entirely new moveset for Ganondorf anyway and give his current one to Black Shadow so it makes sense to pull from moves the character did throughout the series.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think it all comes down to personal opinion in the end. I do see your point but I don’t really think it’s a problem. Nothing about Ganondorf’s humanoid form prohibits him from using a weapon like a trident or the flaming bat projectiles. Like I’ve mentioned, K. Rool is the perfect analogy here. King K. Rool, Kaptain K. Rool, and Baron K. Roolenstein are all the same “person” but are three different characters with their own completely original skill sets in the DKC trilogy. Sakurai incorporated elements from all three into one moveset for Ultimate. I don’t understand how pulling moves from classic Ganon and various forms of Ganondorf would be any different. The original premise was to create an entirely new moveset for Ganondorf anyway and give his current one to Black Shadow so it makes sense to pull from moves the character did throughout the series.

He's not a good analogy. Kaptain K. Rool is literally the same bodyshape and has no real way to make an all new moveset out of him. You could've just as easily not included that move and it'd make no difference. This is more of a good analogy why Dr. Mario is a weird addition, since it actually is similar. Only issue is Mario would suddenly need to be able to use an entirely different projectile. Which could work if "Styles" existed. Remember what I said about "similar bodyshapes being why characters tend to use another one's moves"? That still applies here. It only works because it's literally Rool adding a hat to his person. It's not an entirely different move from a different being that isn't really intended to work with the current playable character.

You can make an easy moveset out of Toon Ganondorf or Ganon, maybe Phantom Ganon too. ...Not so much Kaptain K. Rool. Could it work? Sure, maybe. I mean, there's probably a few other boss moves. Easy clone/semi-clone. But at that point, why bother with a weapon when Ganondorf already has one, one that he was intended to wield in Melee(and is part of the game itself in the victory screens and even the new challenger screen), and has wielded a sword in some way during his movesets in every game. You didn't answer the most important part; what does the Trident do to actually make his moveset better? Or more importantly, how does it flow into his slower battle style? Flaming Bats don't even... make sense. Unless you want to make him worse with the slowest projectile in the world. Like, DMV is one thing, since there is a good reason for him to use it(though it wouldn't work well if the reflectability part is properly implemented. Cause his electric ball is literally the same move without mass reflectability, which does fit him better and is properly balanced), but again, how does it improve him? Fanservice alone doesn't make a new move work. Besides that, as I said, you need an entirely new moveset to really fit the Trident in properly. ...Why not just make a new character? Regular Ganondorf works fine(he needs buffs, and I can imagine some ways to do so. Like a reflectability added to his cape, not unlike what I spoke of for his electric ball attack. It'd get some of DMV's concept off, but also improve him and not try to hard to focus on canon but focus on moveset flow far more).

Anyway, agree to disagree. I just don't see any good way to implement it on the actual Ganondorf we have. We do have a spinning long weapon moveset, and it's beyond completely different that it really doesn't work well with him. Besides that, it might've if he was made with it in mind in the first place(like K. Rool was made with the Blunderbuss in mind). If you have to massively rework a character to add a weapon/move/ability/etc., then just make another character. Or have a Styles thing, which is the same thing really. Transformations might as well be the same concept as Styles. You're playing the same person(in many cases), but in a different way. Obviously Pokemon Trainer is a technical exception(I mean, you always have PT him/herself, but you know what I mean).

 

[StrangeKitten]

Man it feels... Idk, I guess it feels a little like someone I kinda knew died, to learn Dragalia Lost is shutting down. I've never played it so I don't have much attachment to it, but after learning more about Euden last year, he seemed like a really cool character to potentially get into Smash someday. And the game seemed pretty neat. Maybe it's just FOMO, but there's just this... weird-in-a-bad-way feeling that strikes me upon hearing that a video game is going to be flat-out inaccessible, even to those who have already downloaded it. Video game preservation is important, so to hear that a game may be gone forever just feels... bad. I felt this way about the Dr. Mario mobile game and now I feel this way again about Dragalia Lost. Guess all we can do is hope the series gets a console game so the IP can live on, but given how many series Nintendo already doesn't make more games for, it just strikes me as unlikely that they'll do more for it.

And damn, think about all the people who spent money on in-app purchases, now not even going to be able to so much as look at the things they bought on there, once the game is shut down. I'm not even one of those people, and it stings. Feels like there really ought to be a better way to go about this. I understand no longer maintaining servers if the game isn't bringing in much revenue, but still.

I know Bandana Dee is his own character so he’s not really applicable to this scenario but he did make me think of something. If Sakurai was to go with another basic minion similar to Pirahna Plant, are there any that you guys would like to see? I love Goombas but it would feel wrong if Mario got two in a row. A few other options that could be fun are Bugzzy, Moblin, Tonberry, Slime, and Prinny but there are tons of other great choices.

Easily Bulborbs. I'd rather we get them than have Brittany and/or Alph as an echo, simply because they'd be so similar to Olimar as echoes of him, while Bulborb holds far more interesting moveset potential.

And, while I know very little about Dragon Quest, Slime just seemed like it'd be a blast to play. I think both Pikmin and DQ are well-deserving of a second rep, and these two are the best choices imo

 

[Wonder Smash]

What are everybody's favorite kind of crossovers in Smash Ultimate?

For me, I do like seeing different NES characters together. Nintendo was the king back in those days where so many games were able to shine on their consoles just like their own games. Seeing characters from back then come together in Smash feels like a tribute to a great era for the company.

Another crossover I like seeing is retro characters and recent characters. Look at Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch and then look at characters like Bayonetta and Joker. Not just the characters but also their games. Just never would have thought that they would all be in the same game together. It just didn't even seem And I know Cloud is not really a recent character but you can't help but look his game too. Duck Hunt and Final Fantasy VII? Characters from those games together? That's still kind of hard to believe. Ice Climber and Bayonetta? Very different games from very different eras and here they are, crossing over.

Then there's also seeing the genre kings going at it, such as Mario (Platforming), Ryu (Fighting), Cloud (RPG), Snake (Stealth) and, partially, Doom Slayer (FPS).

To add to this, I forgot about Sora.

Kingdom Hearts basically has Disney movies featured in them. So again, look at simple games like Duck Hunt and Ice Climber and then look at far more detailed games like Kingdom Hearts. Vastly different games and yet here they are together.

 

[Yamat08]

I know Bandana Dee is his own character so he’s not really applicable to this scenario but he did make me think of something. If Sakurai was to go with another basic minion similar to Pirahna Plant, are there any that you guys would like to see? I love Goombas but it would feel wrong if Mario got two in a row. A few other options that could be fun are Bugzzy, Moblin, Tonberry, Slime, and Prinny but there are tons of other great choices.

If more mooks become a thing, I genuinely do think that Goomba and Koopa Troopa should be high up there due to sheer iconography. The basic Metroid larva seems like it'd be pretty interesting too (and much like how they managed to make Piranha Plant so surprisingly mobile, I think it'd be fun to see what they could do to make a Metroid capable of wielding weapons or performing throws). Slime seems workable as well (especially since it's one of the few cases where a common enemy can double as the series' mascot, as well as being an icon of RPG-grinding). And someone mentioned Chocobo..... I don't think it'd really count as a mook enemy (it can be fought in a few games, but it seems to act as transport far more often than not, with those few enemy examples often being tamable), but I wouldn't mind it making it into Smash either (especially since it'd probably be the best thing they could go with for an overall series rep of Final Fantasy, and some of you probably know how much I despise the VII bias).

Also, not for Smash, but I thought it would've been interesting if Hyrule Warriors allowed you to play as a Stalfos or a Lizalfos. They are pretty iconic enemies to the Zelda series, and it wouldn't have been the first time that a Musou game allowed you play as a random mook (Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage included a nameless outlaw among its cast of playables). I guess I wouldn't have anything against them in Smash, but...... I dunno, I feel it'd be worth being playable in Hyrule Warriors first before such a thing could be considered (which I know seems odd, considering how Smash featured Zelda/Shiek and Ganondorf years before Hyrule Warriors was ever a thing, as well as the fact that Piranha Plant had no prior playable appearances despite how frequently Mario's assortment of enemies were made playable in numerous spin-offs over the years..... but I guess I feel that way because Hyrule Warriors has now offered such a large pool of Zelda characters to be playable for the first time, with Link often being the only playable throughout the entire series).

 

[AEMehr]

The only enemy character I think most people would genuinely be behind is probably Shy Guy.
It's an excuse to say you added a Yoshi character too, I guess. But you could do a lot with the variety of them as CapitaineCrash had mentioned, would be a fun pick IMO.

I also think people would adore Waddle Dee too. Kirby has grown really popular culturally, with all of the products and stuff you see of him these days. A lot of things you'd see for like Pokemon or Hello Kitty. But it is kind of funny that Bandana Waddle Dee has become so prevalent in the franchise now, despite the opinion a simple enemy character can't stand on their own in Smash died years ago lol. Maybe if they do add a Waddle Dee in Smash, whether it's Bandana or just a general mook, they could have it change hats or give it four costumes w/ the Bandana and four without it.

 

[fogbadge]

This doesn't really compare, though. Zelda already transformed into Sheik as a canon ability. It's just being reused. That, and it's unclear if TP Sheik was created wholesale for Brawl or if she was intended to be in TP but scrapped. Hyrule Historia's wording is very vague about it. Both are plausible interpretations(the Japanese is the same as the English meaning too).


Considering it's a corpse? That could be Phantom Ganon. The problem is a major lack of details and that we have a character who pretty much is the same concept as a humanoid Ganon who uses a Trident, but not Ganondorf. Wouldn't even be a twist. He's been unused lately due to Ganondorf seeing a lack of use. That's why I don't take this point too seriously. There's more than one plausible explanation. It could literally just be regular Ganon but interpreted as a human based upon the legends known of the evil of Ganondorf too. Though this one sounds less plausible than the other two. Point being, it's too vague. Sure, Ganondorf might finally wield a Trident in a canon game. The closest is the story during Four Swords Adventures... but he never wields it as Ganondorf either way. We just know he sought it and still had a humanoid form during the story told to us... which doesn't give us a clear indication of what entirely happened.


First one doesn't really compare yet again. These are unique situations where there's actual reasoning behind it. Zelda, for one thing, is a spellcaster, but has no actual spells to really use in fighting beyond Telepathy, Transform... and opening doors/barriers. Only one got used. For the most part, her psychic abilities are kind of similar to her throws. She had no actual options to work with while keeping her intended character design in the core Zelda series(Magic User). Ness/Lucas are a bit different. They're intended to represent their entire game, and needed actual workable PSI attacks to make up a proper moveset. The only special of decent use he could've had is his Teleport, but that's just a huge running move that... doesn't do anything useful nor have any real good applications. And there's no Side B yet. PK Thunder worked surprisingly well in concept, while giving him a unique projectile. PK Fire is pretty easy when he was built off of Mario to begin with. PSI Shield worked fine for what it needed to be. Really, none of the spells or PSI attacks save maybe Shield actually work the same way as the games.

In a twist, those are Zelda's spells anyway canon-wise, due to her being the reincarnation of the original Goddess. Sakurai simply chose it right multiple years before it'd be official. But seriously, what actual magical specials could she seriously use at that point? She has no actual real fighting abilities or abilities in general outside of the CD-i games at that point. It's notable when her only other canon ability is using a Phantom to attack in some way.

Now for the second one, this is a more feasible point. However, in context, Ganondorf only got into Smash because of the Tech Demo Model, where the sword originated from. That particular Sword is designed for that particular interpretation of Ganondorf, and is a reused model that already had animations in general to look at to get an idea of how he can fight. HIs only other swords were completely unusable for this. Sakurai isn't going to look at HW for weapons when it's not even a Ganondorf model he's trying to use. Besides that, Ganondorf's swordplay is pretty much the style of the Tech Demo character, so the only thing he'd be getting is... a two-sword style? That's a lot harder to work with than a single-sword style. So it'd require a massive rewrite. Meanwhile using a single sword with easy animations makes a lot of sense. Especially as they resemble his old Final Smashes in at least two cases. His Down Smash has the same hook back and forth movement, but with clearly different hitboxes. His Up Smash is pretty much the same idea overall, but it does have a better hitbox(I never compared their power though). Only the Forward Smash is highly different, though the concept isn't changed that much... but just about every Forward Smash is the same concept anyway. Hit in front of you to do massive damage.

That said, you are right it isn't canon. But in context... it was the only weapon to use for the model. Same reason TP Ganondorf only used the Sword of Sages. It was the only model that already was easy to work with. Assets are more important than "cause we can", after all. They'd have to make an all new model for any other weapon, and don't have any easy footage to rig up stuff, are using a weapon(for instance the Trident) that doesn't have a similar model in-game to build off animations from(the closest is Palutena's Staff, though it's a highly different model from the Trident too. It's closer to the Pike design that Phantom Ganon has used, otherwise).

Anyway, we got a long time before the next Smash, and there's no reason to believe he'd play completely different, so only a broadsword-like weapon fits his style. Could things change? Sure. But it's really hard to believe that when no character has gotten that extreme of an overhaul to be an entirely different moveset. Yes, some changes have been pretty major before, which requires re-learning. But it's nothing like say, Ganondorf suddenly playing like Link does. That kind of change has never existed.

i just think its a bit of a double standard to say zelda can turn into shiek cause and different incarnation of hers can but ganondorf cant use the trident cause he hasnt used it in his human form. in fact according to zelda lore the ganon in a link to the past who uses a trident is the same incarnation as the ocarina of time ganondorf who weve got in smash.

i dont know why people get so obsessed with whats canon and whats not in regards to smash when sakurai seems to be far more easy going about it. im sure what would keep ganondorf from using the trident is the fact that sakurai does do huge moveset revamps. look how long it took for us to get a sword the one weapon we can all agree is fine.

 

[Gengar84]

He's not a good analogy. Kaptain K. Rool is literally the same bodyshape and has no real way to make an all new moveset out of him. You could've just as easily not included that move and it'd make no difference. This is more of a good analogy why Dr. Mario is a weird addition, since it actually is similar. Only issue is Mario would suddenly need to be able to use an entirely different projectile. Which could work if "Styles" existed. Remember what I said about "similar bodyshapes being why characters tend to use another one's moves"? That still applies here. It only works because it's literally Rool adding a hat to his person. It's not an entirely different move from a different being that isn't really intended to work with the current playable character.

You can make an easy moveset out of Toon Ganondorf or Ganon, maybe Phantom Ganon too. ...Not so much Kaptain K. Rool. Could it work? Sure, maybe. I mean, there's probably a few other boss moves. Easy clone/semi-clone. But at that point, why bother with a weapon when Ganondorf already has one, one that he was intended to wield in Melee(and is part of the game itself in the victory screens and even the new challenger screen), and has wielded a sword in some way during his movesets in every game. You didn't answer the most important part; what does the Trident do to actually make his moveset better? Or more importantly, how does it flow into his slower battle style? Flaming Bats don't even... make sense. Unless you want to make him worse with the slowest projectile in the world. Like, DMV is one thing, since there is a good reason for him to use it(though it wouldn't work well if the reflectability part is properly implemented. Cause his electric ball is literally the same move without mass reflectability, which does fit him better and is properly balanced), but again, how does it improve him? Fanservice alone doesn't make a new move work. Besides that, as I said, you need an entirely new moveset to really fit the Trident in properly. ...Why not just make a new character? Regular Ganondorf works fine(he needs buffs, and I can imagine some ways to do so. Like a reflectability added to his cape, not unlike what I spoke of for his electric ball attack. It'd get some of DMV's concept off, but also improve him and not try to hard to focus on canon but focus on moveset flow far more).

Anyway, agree to disagree. I just don't see any good way to implement it on the actual Ganondorf we have. We do have a spinning long weapon moveset, and it's beyond completely different that it really doesn't work well with him. Besides that, it might've if he was made with it in mind in the first place(like K. Rool was made with the Blunderbuss in mind). If you have to massively rework a character to add a weapon/move/ability/etc., then just make another character. Or have a Styles thing, which is the same thing really. Transformations might as well be the same concept as Styles. You're playing the same person(in many cases), but in a different way. Obviously Pokemon Trainer is a technical exception(I mean, you always have PT him/herself, but you know what I mean).

Yeah, I think we’re going to just have to agree to disagree here. The point wasn’t to update the Ganondorf we have now though. It was to create a completely new moveset for him and give his current one (technically his Melee or Brawl one) to Black Shadow from F-Zero. I think that’s probably the main point where we might be having this miscommunication. Also, even though it isn’t canon, Hyrule Warriors shows that his human form is fully capable of wielding a trident so I don’t really understand your argument about why the weapon wouldn’t work due to Ganon’s different body type. Nothing Ganon does in his pig form can only be done with that body type. Throwing a trident could be easily done with a normal human frame as can all of his projectiles like the bats I mentioned. That’s why I don’t think it really matters that the two have different frames. It’s a completely different situation from trying to make clone or echo over an existing character.

Polearms have been used for powerful characters similar to Ganondorf in other games as well. Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors wields a halberd and that weapon works really well to show off his brute strength in those games. Ganondorf could use his trident in much the same way, with some additional moves for stabbing since that doesn’t quite work with a halberd. Magus from Chrono Trigger is another character with a lot of similarities to Ganondorf who also wields a polearm, this time a scythe. Like Ganondorf, Magus is a powerful mage who floats around and uses dark magic. I see Ganondorf/Ganon as essentially a hybrid between Magus and Lu Bu.

The last point that I wanted to make was that human form Ganondorf never had a consistent weapon in his canon appearances so giving him anything would lean towards representing one game. In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf doesn’t use a weapon at all and just relies on his magic. In The Wind Waker, Ganondorf wields twin swords. Finally, in Twilight Princess, he only has one sword. The only weapon the character has uses in more than one canon appearance is the trident, which admittedly he only used in his pig form and as Phantom Ganon. We also already have a ton of sword wielded in Smash and no dedicated polearm users so this would help make Ganondorf stand out. Because of this, I think the trident is the best weapon to represent the character in general.

I don’t have a problem with your suggestion of just adding pig Ganon as a separate character but I don’t think that should come at the expense of making the human form of Ganondorf more faithful to his character. In the event that they decide to completely remake Ganondorf from scratch, why not incorporate elements from Ganon? Sorry, I’ve been a Ganondorf main since Melee and he’s my favorite character on the roster other than Sephiroth so I have a lot to say about him. I realize that it all comes down to personal preference in the end and you do make valid points but I just personally like the idea of representing Ganon/Ganondorf’s skills from throughout the series rather than focusing too hard on a single game (or just making him a Captain Falcon/Ike hybrid like he is now).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

i just think its a bit of a double standard to say zelda can turn into shiek cause and different incarnation of hers can but ganondorf cant use the trident cause he hasnt used it in his human form. in fact according to zelda lore the ganon in a link to the past who uses a trident is the same incarnation as the ocarina of time ganondorf who weve got in smash.

Again, it's still a different situation. There's no reason Zelda couldn't just turn into Sheik again at that point. It's a properly established ability. Ganondorf was never established as having the ability to use the Trident at any point in the games(at least the canon ones). As I said, the sword point holds more merit, but the context shows the only reason it was used. It's not really a double standard due to context mattering a lot. The situations simply are way too different. There was a bit more merit when the person brought up the K. Rool stuff, though. Though as I said, context should apply. To me, the most important part is "why it is like this". That's why these analogies fall apart quite often. You're trying to apply the exact same situation, when they're anything but. Besides that, Zelda and Sheik are actually separated now entirely, so it no longer actually is a thing that really holds as an important point. Sheik might've been cut anyway if things didn't work out, so the "transform" wasn't that important so much as "not trying too hard to change the moveset and alienate players".

i dont know why people get so obsessed with whats canon and whats not in regards to smash when sakurai seems to be far more easy going about it. im sure what would keep ganondorf from using the trident is the fact that sakurai does do huge moveset revamps. look how long it took for us to get a sword the one weapon we can all agree is fine.

I mean, he got the sword he was meant to anyway. He was clearly not getting any other sword as a full moveset change, anyway. If the tech demo didn't have one, there's no other way to implement it properly. It's still his sword first and foremost. It wasn't created with another particular character(in this case, the actual Ganon) in mind. Not saying it's his best weapon choice among the swords either overall, but we probably would've gotten Toon Ganondorf if he wasn't in Melee. Only TP Ganondorf fits the model from Melee's usage, so it was the only way to actually update the character, and him being hyper slow did turn off players too, so... it only worked from a "sweet, I can feel like the badass master of darkness". So it just represented him better, heh.

Yeah, I think we’re going to just have to agree to disagree here. The point wasn’t to update the Ganondorf we have now though. It was to create a completely new moveset for him and give his current one (technically his Melee or Brawl one) to Black Shadow from F-Zero. I think that’s probably the main point where we might be having this miscommunication. Also, even though it isn’t canon, Hyrule Warriors shows that his human form is fully capable of wielding a trident so I don’t really understand your argument about why the weapon wouldn’t work due to Ganon’s different body type. Nothing Ganon does in his pig form can only be done with that body type. Throwing a trident could be easily done with a normal human frame as can all of his projectiles like the bats I mentioned. That’s why I don’t think it really matters that the two have different frames. It’s a completely different situation from trying to make clone or echo over an existing character.

Polearms have been used for powerful characters similar to Ganondorf in other games as well. Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors wields a halberd and that weapon works really well to show off his brute strength in those games. Ganondorf could use his trident in much the same way, with some additional moves for stabbing since that doesn’t quite work with a halberd. Magus from Chrono Trigger is another character with a lot of similarities to Ganondorf who also wields a polearm, this time a scythe. Like Ganondorf, Magus is a powerful mage who floats around and uses dark magic. I see Ganondorf/Ganon as essentially a hybrid between Magus and Lu Bu.

The last point that I wanted to make was that human form Ganondorf never had a consistent weapon in his canon appearances so giving him anything would lean towards representing one game. In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf doesn’t use a weapon at all and just relies on his magic. In The Wind Waker, Ganondorf wields twin swords. Finally, in Twilight Princess, he only has one sword. The only weapon the character has uses in more than one canon appearance is the trident, which admittedly he only used in his pig form and as Phantom Ganon. We also already have a ton of sword wielded in Smash and no dedicated polearm users so this would help make Ganondorf stand out. Because of this, I think the trident is the best weapon to represent the character in general.

I don’t have a problem with your suggestion of just adding pig Ganon as a separate character but I don’t think that should come at the expense of making the human form of Ganondorf more faithful to his character. In the event that they decide to completely remake Ganondorf from scratch, why not incorporate elements from Ganon? Sorry, I’ve been a Ganondorf main since Melee and he’s my favorite character on the roster other than Sephiroth so I have a lot to say about him. I realize that it all comes down to personal preference in the end and you do make valid points but I just personally like the idea of representing Ganon/Ganondorf’s skills from throughout the series rather than focusing too hard on a single game (or just making him a Captain Falcon/Ike hybrid like he is now).

...I mean, Ganondorf is still using Swords regardless of whether it's one or not. That's not inconsistent in itself. It took HW for him to use a Trident.

Why even incorporate elements from Ganon? They're beyond different characters in how they work. Ganondorf is already faster to begin with by design(even his TP version in Brawl is still faster than the bipedal Ganon, who is meant to be highly slow with at best a rush attack or two, a common ability among heavyweights for balance reasons).

Interesting take on the way polearms work, though. I've seen the various mods, and Ganondorf looks really off with the Trident. That's why a Phantom Ganon moveset feels like a better idea. He can use it as a full weapon while standing out on his own. BTW, Phantom Ganon is not an actual form of Ganon. He's a clone and an entirely different person. He just uses a Trident before the official Trident was found in the canon timeline. ...For whatever reason.

Also, I never found any merit in shoving his old moveset onto Black Shadow just for the sake of adding him. This doesn't really actually treat Black Shadow as worthwhile to begin with. He'd make a nice callback to the previous Ganondorf moveset, due to actually working well as a heavyweight magic user, but that's kind of it. The moveset works quite well for Ganondorf, representing his personality extremely well. Just have two Ganondorfs at this point and it'd work better without alienating other people. Worth noting that the change that Ganondorf got already made him feel awkward and I've seen some find him too different just due to how the sword was implemented. And he's not even that changed. Could be some found his slow self more pleasing to win with or something. Either way, removing his moveset doesn't actually do him justice, nor does adding Black Shadow just for the sake of giving Ganondorf another moveset. You can have all three and call it a day. It's a lot better to have more characters at that point than what becomes more of a moveset function.

Something to point out; faithfulness is more than canon moves. Characterization matters too. Ganondorf was always badass, tanky as a boss(regardless of form), using magic(this is definitely in Smash, just done differently), has physical force in his abilities, and gives us off a murderous vibe. He does that to this day in Smash. That said... the Trident wouldn't be faithful to Ganondorf anyway. DMV, Electric Ball, his canon swords, those are more faithful in itself, yeah. But a weapon he doesn't legitimately use in that form doesn't actually count as faithful. Nor are Blazing Bats.

Anyway, probably better to move on. Ganondorf feels just right(for the most part).

 

[Gengar84]

Again, it's still a different situation. There's no reason Zelda couldn't just turn into Sheik again at that point. It's a properly established ability. Ganondorf was never established as having the ability to use the Trident at any point in the games(at least the canon ones). As I said, the sword point holds more merit, but the context shows the only reason it was used. It's not really a double standard due to context mattering a lot. The situations simply are way too different. There was a bit more merit when the person brought up the K. Rool stuff, though. Though as I said, context should apply. To me, the most important part is "why it is like this". That's why these analogies fall apart quite often. You're trying to apply the exact same situation, when they're anything but. Besides that, Zelda and Sheik are actually separated now entirely, so it no longer actually is a thing that really holds as an important point. Sheik might've been cut anyway if things didn't work out, so the "transform" wasn't that important so much as "not trying too hard to change the moveset and alienate players".


I mean, he got the sword he was meant to anyway. He was clearly not getting any other sword as a full moveset change, anyway. If the tech demo didn't have one, there's no other way to implement it properly. It's still his sword first and foremost. It wasn't created with another particular character(in this case, the actual Ganon) in mind. Not saying it's his best weapon choice among the swords either overall, but we probably would've gotten Toon Ganondorf if he wasn't in Melee. Only TP Ganondorf fits the model from Melee's usage, so it was the only way to actually update the character, and him being hyper slow did turn off players too, so... it only worked from a "sweet, I can feel like the badass master of darkness". So it just represented him better, heh.


...I mean, Ganondorf is still using Swords regardless of whether it's one or not. That's not inconsistent in itself. It took HW for him to use a Trident.

Why even incorporate elements from Ganon? They're beyond different characters in how they work. Ganondorf is already faster to begin with by design(even his TP version in Brawl is still faster than the bipedal Ganon, who is meant to be highly slow with at best a rush attack or two, a common ability among heavyweights for balance reasons).

Interesting take on the way polearms work, though. I've seen the various mods, and Ganondorf looks really off with the Trident. That's why a Phantom Ganon moveset feels like a better idea. He can use it as a full weapon while standing out on his own. BTW, Phantom Ganon is not an actual form of Ganon. He's a clone and an entirely different person. He just uses a Trident before the official Trident was found in the canon timeline. ...For whatever reason.

Also, I never found any merit in shoving his old moveset onto Black Shadow just for the sake of adding him. This doesn't really actually treat Black Shadow as worthwhile to begin with. He'd make a nice callback to the previous Ganondorf moveset, due to actually working well as a heavyweight magic user, but that's kind of it. The moveset works quite well for Ganondorf, representing his personality extremely well. Just have two Ganondorfs at this point and it'd work better without alienating other people. Worth noting that the change that Ganondorf got already made him feel awkward and I've seen some find him too different just due to how the sword was implemented. And he's not even that changed. Could be some found his slow self more pleasing to win with or something. Either way, removing his moveset doesn't actually do him justice, nor does adding Black Shadow just for the sake of giving Ganondorf another moveset. You can have all three and call it a day. It's a lot better to have more characters at that point than what becomes more of a moveset function.

Something to point out; faithfulness is more than canon moves. Characterization matters too. Ganondorf was always badass, tanky as a boss(regardless of form), using magic(this is definitely in Smash, just done differently), has physical force in his abilities, and gives us off a murderous vibe. He does that to this day in Smash. That said... the Trident wouldn't be faithful to Ganondorf anyway. DMV, Electric Ball, his canon swords, those are more faithful in itself, yeah. But a weapon he doesn't legitimately use in that form doesn't actually count as faithful. Nor are Blazing Bats.

Anyway, probably better to move on. Ganondorf feels just right(for the most part).

Yeah, I’m okay with moving on if you want to. I’m enjoying our discussion but it seems like neither of us are going to move from our positions and that’s perfectly fine. It would be pretty boring if everyone thought the same way. Like I said, I’ve always been a Ganondorf main so I enjoy his current play style I just prefer when a character feels like they come right from their home series.

 

[fogbadge]

Again, it's still a different situation. There's no reason Zelda couldn't just turn into Sheik again at that point. It's a properly established ability. Ganondorf was never established as having the ability to use the Trident at any point in the games(at least the canon ones). As I said, the sword point holds more merit, but the context shows the only reason it was used. It's not really a double standard due to context mattering a lot. The situations simply are way too different. There was a bit more merit when the person brought up the K. Rool stuff, though. Though as I said, context should apply. To me, the most important part is "why it is like this". That's why these analogies fall apart quite often. You're trying to apply the exact same situation, when they're anything but. Besides that, Zelda and Sheik are actually separated now entirely, so it no longer actually is a thing that really holds as an important point. Sheik might've been cut anyway if things didn't work out, so the "transform" wasn't that important so much as "not trying too hard to change the moveset and alienate players".


I mean, he got the sword he was meant to anyway. He was clearly not getting any other sword as a full moveset change, anyway. If the tech demo didn't have one, there's no other way to implement it properly. It's still his sword first and foremost. It wasn't created with another particular character(in this case, the actual Ganon) in mind. Not saying it's his best weapon choice among the swords either overall, but we probably would've gotten Toon Ganondorf if he wasn't in Melee. Only TP Ganondorf fits the model from Melee's usage, so it was the only way to actually update the character, and him being hyper slow did turn off players too, so... it only worked from a "sweet, I can feel like the badass master of darkness". So it just represented him better, heh.


...I mean, Ganondorf is still using Swords regardless of whether it's one or not. That's not inconsistent in itself. It took HW for him to use a Trident.

Why even incorporate elements from Ganon? They're beyond different characters in how they work. Ganondorf is already faster to begin with by design(even his TP version in Brawl is still faster than the bipedal Ganon, who is meant to be highly slow with at best a rush attack or two, a common ability among heavyweights for balance reasons).

Interesting take on the way polearms work, though. I've seen the various mods, and Ganondorf looks really off with the Trident. That's why a Phantom Ganon moveset feels like a better idea. He can use it as a full weapon while standing out on his own. BTW, Phantom Ganon is not an actual form of Ganon. He's a clone and an entirely different person. He just uses a Trident before the official Trident was found in the canon timeline. ...For whatever reason.

Also, I never found any merit in shoving his old moveset onto Black Shadow just for the sake of adding him. This doesn't really actually treat Black Shadow as worthwhile to begin with. He'd make a nice callback to the previous Ganondorf moveset, due to actually working well as a heavyweight magic user, but that's kind of it. The moveset works quite well for Ganondorf, representing his personality extremely well. Just have two Ganondorfs at this point and it'd work better without alienating other people. Worth noting that the change that Ganondorf got already made him feel awkward and I've seen some find him too different just due to how the sword was implemented. And he's not even that changed. Could be some found his slow self more pleasing to win with or something. Either way, removing his moveset doesn't actually do him justice, nor does adding Black Shadow just for the sake of giving Ganondorf another moveset. You can have all three and call it a day. It's a lot better to have more characters at that point than what becomes more of a moveset function.

Something to point out; faithfulness is more than canon moves. Characterization matters too. Ganondorf was always badass, tanky as a boss(regardless of form), using magic(this is definitely in Smash, just done differently), has physical force in his abilities, and gives us off a murderous vibe. He does that to this day in Smash. That said... the Trident wouldn't be faithful to Ganondorf anyway. DMV, Electric Ball, his canon swords, those are more faithful in itself, yeah. But a weapon he doesn't legitimately use in that form doesn't actually count as faithful. Nor are Blazing Bats.

Anyway, probably better to move on. Ganondorf feels just right(for the most part).

I really don’t see how Zelda being able to use a move a different version of her character can use is any different than ganon using a weapon a different version of him uses, especially in a game with multiple characters have had stuff made up for them, even ones that didn’t need it

also four swords adventures it does refer to ganondorf having a trident

oh forget it. we're going in circles

 

[Chuderz]

the very fact that they werent released outside of japan points to nintendo thinking that the games wouldnt have sold outside of japan or that they didnt do well there. reviving the series is a gamble one that they may not be willing to take and your assurance that they games will be a success wont matter to nintendo cause they dont do hypotheticals as regie once said in regards to petteions "1000 signatures does not mean 1000 sales"

i didnt say 6 new zeldas i said 2 new 1 remake 1 remaster and 2 spin offs. and you dont want to count pokemon? you cant go around complaining theyre not releasing many first party games if you dont want to include one of their biggest series. also theres something deeply ironic about telling me not to count outsourced games while suggesting they could do the same for f-zero and saying they should make a new golden sun which isnt made in house by nintendo. see your claim that people will look back and think that there werent many first party titles are based on your own selective criteria.

did you miss the thing were nintendo over the last year revived 3 dormant franchises? you know famicom detective club which was more dormant than fzero, big brain academy and advance wars? i aslo think anyone who calls spin offs or pokemon games as low effort has little no grasp of how complex programming, animation and 3d modelling is.

again calling out super mario 3d all stars seem a bit off when youre unwilling to count half the new mario titles they actually made.

no what im aruing against is they idea that f-zero would be an instant success when it was clearly struggling to stay afloat. im also arguing against the idea of saying that nintendo havent made many first party titles while being so unwilling to count half of them. ports sure but theres been loads of non ports as well. the point is that nintendo have been doing the exact things youre saying they havent. theyve revived a few series a released a ton of first party games.

you cant claim nintendo arent living up to the promise of new and unique gaming for players when your unwilling to count half the stuff theyve had a hand in. thats just twisting the facts to prove your point. really i think the problem isnt nintendo arent making enough games so much as nintendo arent making games that i want to play.

No one game, the last GBA F-Zero wasn't released outside of Japan because it was based on the anime that they never brought to the west. Also I'm having second thought in regards to GX's sales because from what I've been able to gather is a Nintendo "Player's Choice" game equates to 1 million sales and that'd line up with what the GX producer from SEGA was saying. I don't think we can solidly say one way or another about GX's sales.

I don't like you asserting I've said things that I didn't say based on nothing but your baseless extrapolation of the sentiments of my various thoughts on separate matters. I tend to kind of rant but I now wish this conversation had remained about F-Zero specifically because I feel like it's gone off-rails. I've never said success was an assured thing and I've mentioned plenty of times that it'd be a risk but that risks are worth taking and can lead to great success. I basically think it's been long enough to give the series another try and that there are enough new ideas that you could add to it to make it stand out from the rest of the franchise.

The first-party lineup is just your standard stuff. Smash, Mario Kart, Party, 3D, 2D, some sports, Zelda, Animal Crossing Pokemon and now Splatoon. Sprinkle some Kirby here and there and a once a generation Yoshi oh and the new Warioware was actually kind of nice. Remember a lot of these ports, outsourced and over the span of 5 freaking years well past half the console's lifecycle. I do think in general the output is lagging. There should be more Nintendo first-party titles every year than what they've been capable of producing but my main argument was that it isn't a diverse portfolio and it isn't a substantially new experience offered to their audience. You can praise them for the Pokemon games all you want and even if you like them you have to admit there's nothing new about them. I guess you'd point to Arceus but considered me unimpressed. Same low-effort graphics, no voice acting, bland one-dimensional characters, lifeless animations, segmented empty worlds and just our overall typical Pokemon game that could have probably run on the GameCube a game released at the beginning of 2022. Well beneath the potential of the franchise which is its own crying shame.

Why would you count the ports though in regards to all the Mario games your referring to? That's not new work. That's just repackaging old work. To count that as proper first-party output in the Switch's lifecycle seems wrong. Sometimes it's new work like with the case of the Mario Party all-stars game being completely redone old work and the new DLC for Mario Kart being repackaged from a phone game they made during the Switch's lifecycle. Would you honestly count Super Mario Bros U Deluxe or 3D worlds thought minus Bowser's Fury? Or Hyrule Warriors definitive edition or Mario Kart 8 DX or Skyward Sword HD or any of the 3D Mario ports? That just seems illogical to me in regards to defining Nintendo's actual first-party output during the Switch's lifecycle.

No I don't really want to play a lot of them honestly but that's not the problem. You're trying to count ports to puff the numbers and failing to recognize that we're halfway into the lifecycle of this system. This first-party catalog for Switch took half a decade to produce and it's littered with ports and outsourced work. I think counting annual Pokemon releases too is borderline puffing up the numbers too since they are such insubstantial, mediocre releases but if people want to go as far as to count those then so be it. Again I was mainly talking about Nintendo's release output outside of their standard Mario, Zelda Pokemon, Splatoon a couple of Kirby games and 1 mandatory Yoshi game. I think it's basically what they're capable of producing with the resources they're willing to allocate as things currently stand with them which is why I think some expansion and acquisitions (in conjunction with outsourcing work to reliable third-party studios) could really help address this piling of inactive IPs.

I forget that Camelot isn't first-party but they're second-party for sure so close enough. It's just a thought about what they could potentially do with more studios/staff under their belt. Hell if Camelot was first-party they could probably hire more staff and actually work on Golden Sun games again sometimes.

I do notice Nintendo bringing back some old franchises. That's what I want more of and I hope they keep doing it! So why not F-Zero? I showed you the example of an outside team pitching it to Nintendo. There was just a story about a studio with a proven track record offering to enhance-remaster Eternal Darkness and Nintendo just won't agree to it. Why not? Nintendo doesn't have a serious horror game. Luigi's Mansion in no way whatsoever could ever cut into Eternal Darkness' audience and vice versa. Here they have this IP with soooooooooooooooooooo much potential for expanded lore and worldbuilding that also has its own identity relative to its peers (Silent Hill, Resident Evil) offers a unique gameplay experience to Nintendo's audience and even has a proven studio willing to enhance-remaster the first game for Nintendo, a perfect opportunity to test the franchise, and still Nintendo refuses to cooperate. So even Nintendo's tried and true outsourcing method is unattainable for certain franchises. If Advance Wars and Famicon Detective Club can the greenlight then I think there is definitely a case to be made for various of Nintendo's long-neglected first-party IP.

Let's remember that this discussion started from my expressing my hopes that fans of Dragalia Lost wouldn't have to lose their game forever. I glanced at the lore and gameplay and it all seems very solid. As far as I'm aware Nintendo doesn't offer a dungeon-crawler. Why not build this franchise into that? They can literally start by enhance-porting what they have with the phone game to Switch to get things started. I think over time this IP could be built into a great success utilizing the more traditional video game packaging model versus chasing the gacha model. What's stopping Nintendo is their inability to see past a slump in sales as indicative of anything else other than the IP's overall quality. Maybe they should consider that they're doing something wrong? Like maybe the phone game market was holding this IP back from its potential actually and could do better on console? Dungeon-Crawlers are an established genre so why not bring that unique gameplay experience to their audience with a Nintendo spin on it? An enhanced-port would be borderline effortless so they really have no excuse to not at least try that and that's especially true if we consider the game such a failure that Nintendo would need to salvage some of their losses. There's basically no excuse other than Nintendo's trademark brand of stubborn risk-intolerance.

Now though I've definitely said my peace because I've largely just been reiterating my previous sentiments. We clearly disagree but there is absolutely no way I could make myself any clearer than I already have.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I really don’t see how Zelda being able to use a move a different version of her character can use is any different than ganon using a weapon a different version of him uses, especially in a game with multiple characters have had stuff made up for them, even ones that didn’t need it

also four swords adventures it does refer to ganondorf having a trident

Because they're still not alike situations. It's a stretch to justify it. If Zelda never transformed into Sheik in the first place and she was an all new character made for Smash, you'd have a much better point. But right now, we see that Zelda was meant to have Shiek in TP anyway, and it just happened to not make it into the game. It never got as far as the concept, but they still wanted to keep it. Brawl just happened to do what TP intended. That's not a case remotely similar to Ganondorf's situation.

Ganondorf didn't actually fight at any point with the Trident in FSA. More accurately, he went after it. He never used the weapon. He transformed into Ganon to use it. ...So it's not really the same thing.

I can think of some way better analogies that fit what you're saying, but it's just your particular points don't really hold in the end. I get what you mean, but just don't see any good reason to add it when it doesn't improve his current moveset in any way. He needs buffs, not a new weapon(that isn't really plausible for his particular playstyle).

But yeah, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Gengar84]

Alright, trying to steer the conversation away from Ganondorf’s moveset for now but he’s still on my mind. Like I mentioned, he and Sephiroth are my two favorite characters in Smash. I just love dark characters like those two. Most of the time these end up being villains but that’s not always the case. I feel like Smash could use a lot more “edgy” characters for lack of a better term. I’d personally love to see characters like Magus, Illidan, Sarah Kerrigan, Diablo, Xemnas/Ansem, Fulgore, Raziel, Death (Darksiders), Nightmare, Jena Anderson, Medusa, Sub-Zero, and similar characters join. Bonus points if they aren’t strictly human. Are there any dark or “edgy” characters you’d like to see make it into Smash? I don’t often see characters like these brought up in discussion so I’m wondering if I’m just in the minority with my taste in characters.

 

[Dinoman96]

In regards to Sheik, she mainly just stuck around because of grandfather clause. She was introduced into Melee along with Zelda literally right off the back of OOT's success in 1998 (remember that Melee's roster was finalized in 1999), and then obviously due to becoming a very popular character they couldn't just cut her out, so they carried her over into Brawl, even when it technically didn't make as much sense with Zelda now being based on Twilight Princess, a game Sheik wasn't in. And then in Smash 4, transformations were cut altogether due to technical limitations regarding the 3DS, and then in Ultimate (a game that went out of its way to bring literally every veteran back) they decided to keep them and seperate and redesigned Zelda again to be based on ALTTP/ALBW while basically giving Sheik an original design based on one of Link's Sheik outfit from BOTW.

She's like Roy and Captain Falcon, in that her legacy is mostly that of a Smash Bros. fighter as opposed to a Zelda character.