Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Perkilator]

If the next Smash has an Adventure Mode that was similar to Melee, what levels would you like to see?

 

[fogbadge]

…Actually, upon slight reflection, I do think having multiple incarnations of Ganondorf (along with Lino and Zelda) as alts would feel just a tiny bit forced. Like, I believe in going all out with alts…but not to the point of incoherence.

I love Lino & Stitch

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I mean...again, look at the DK section of Universal. If Nintendo "didn't care about DK characters beyond DK and Diddy," they wouldn't feature Cranky, Funky, Dixie, and Rambi so heavily in the parks. They would have vetoed K. Rool in Smash instead of having him be HEAVILY used in Ultimate's marketing. They wouldn't have doubled up on Kongs in the final Booster Course wave.

K. Rool got Smash and that's it. He's only in it due to the Ballot.
Dixie is probably the Kong who gets the most cameos overall outside of DK and Diddy, but none of those are big roles. No Smash and no Mario Kart 8 for her.
Funky pretty much just has Mario Kart, he doesn't even appear in the theme park at all from what I understand.
Cranky has a large-ish role in the Mario movie and that's also pretty much it.
They totally feel like afterthoughts.
Though at least they show up sometimes... None of the other Kongs and, outside of Smash, K. Rool, even exist anymore, and even in the park 99% of the merchandise is Donkey and Diddy with a 1% of Dixie.

Plus they all haven't gotten a game since the last ice age.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It may just be me, but I don't see an issue with having the other Ganondorfs as Alts for a TotK Ganondorf, especially if the rehaul still has elements that work for the other Ganondorfs. But I may not have an issue with it simply because of Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf having OoT, TP and WW Ganondorf as Alts.

We need another Hyrule Warriors.

I don't really mind the sword aspect since only OoT is left out and even then we have the SpaceWorld tech demo. The spear can kinda get a pass because Ganon's pig form is often associated with them. And the club hits hard which fits the idea of power even if no other Ganon has used one.

But TP Ganondorf with a bow feels really strange in my mind. Could just be a me thing though.

 

[SPEN18]

Plus they all haven't gotten a game since the last ice age.

2014

2016


...guess you're right.

 

[The Prankster 16]

Honestly, both SSE and WOL have their pros and cons for me. People always bring up the "story" or "character interactions" for SSE, when really most of those interactions boil down to:
"Character 1 is walking around, Character 2 saves/fights them, they see the Halberd, Ch1 nods, Ch2 nods, P1 P2."
That being said, yeah I massively prefer having those cutscenes as opposed to almost nothing in WOL. I also feel like WOL is a lot more interesting (for me at least) and replayable, whereas SSE isn't as fun the second time around and the great maze is a bit of a slog. Granted, that's probably because when I was a kid I didn't know what an SD card was or how to delete save data, so I was stuck playing the first few levels over and over again.
WOL also is miles ahead in terms of representation of the series in smash, the locations aren't just "barren desert" or "nondescript sci-fi lab" and the things you fight are actually characters and enemies from the different games.
I think I'd prefer something like NASB2's roguelike story mode, or a WOL with platforming sections and some more story. It doesn't even have to be cutscenes or even voice acted, just have some dialogue with character art like in Fire Emblem or Persona.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

the locations aren't just "barren desert" or "nondescript sci-fi lab"

Funny you say that since WoL actually has a nondescript sci-fi lab

But yeah, some of the other locations were really cool

 

[HyperSomari64]

View attachment 396035
2014



View attachment 396036
2016


...guess you're right.

Disney has confirmed Ice Age 6 got greenlight. There's hope for Burro Kong fans

 

[ScrubReborn]

Anyways, here's a prediction on Falcondorf before we move on; Falcondorf dies as a moveset, but lives on in playstyle.

This would be a pretty big departure from how Sakurai normally approaches moveset updating, but hear me out. My argument lies on the sword smashes. I believe the sword smashes in Ultimate were Sakurai testing the waters to see how fans would actually respond to a Canondorf, instead of just changing everything at once. And it turns out people loved the sword smashes. And now with that blessing, I think Sakurai will take that chance to give the rest of his kit that treatment.

It's worth noting these sword smashes were all designed to feel like his old smashes, just swordified. I think this is the big reason Falcondorf fans accepted them, because they still fit with the disrespectful nature they've grown to love. So I expect most (not all) of his kit to get the same treatment; functionally close sword (or I guess club) moves, maybe some magic ones too, that broadly preserve the "feel" of the physical variants while also not being Falcon rips.

EDIT: Stuff like side tilt, Flame Choke and maybe even Warlock Punch will most likely stay though. Those are all actually canon.

 

[The Prankster 16]

Funny you say that since WoL actually has a nondescript sci-fi lab

But yeah, some of the other locations were really cool

Sure, BUT that's the mini area with the boss from SSE

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sure, BUT that's the mini area with the boss from SSE

You know that? Very valid point there.

 

[SharkLord]

Incorrect. Samus and Dark Samus have the same exact weight stat of 108.

I-
Wait, really?

Huh. I genuinely thought they made Dark Samus slightly lighter because she's always floating

This whole time I've been gaslighting myself with incorrect information

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I-
Wait, really?
View attachment 396038
Huh. I genuinely thought they made Dark Samus slightly lighter because she's always floating

This whole time I've been gaslighting myself with incorrect informationView attachment 396039

Honestly, I thought she was lighter too at first. I don't know if her jump height is identical as well, but the floating cosmetic effect really is cool either way.

If you want something hilarious, Dr. Mario had a different weight in the PAL version of Melee, meaning he's the only one "similar to an Echo" that had a different weight at any point. The fact he's not an Echo just makes it even funnier.

That said, we don't know if it's a pattern or hard rule anyway. Unlike the bodyshape rule(confirmed by Sakurai more than once). Which unfortunately isn't stated enough, since there's still too many attempts to make things work that really cannot.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Honestly, I thought she was lighter too. I don't know if her jump height is identical as well, but the floating cosmetic effect really is cool either way.

Samus and Dark Samus are fully identical in attributes. Those animations are very good at making you think otherwise though, right?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Anyways, here's a prediction on Falcondorf before we move on; Falcondorf dies as a moveset, but lives on in playstyle.

This would be a pretty big departure from how Sakurai normally approaches moveset updating, but hear me out. My argument lies on the sword smashes. I believe the sword smashes in Ultimate were Sakurai testing the waters to see how fans would actually respond to a Canondorf, instead of just changing everything at once. And it turns out people loved the sword smashes. And now with that blessing, I think Sakurai will take that chance to give the rest of his kit that treatment.

It's worth noting these sword smashes were all designed to feel like his old smashes, just swordified. I think this is the big reason Falcondorf fans accepted them, because they still fit with the disrespectful nature they've grown to love. So I expect most (not all) of his kit to get the same treatment; functionally close sword (or I guess club) moves, maybe some magic ones too, that broadly preserve the "feel" of the physical variants while also not being Falcon rips.

EDIT: Stuff like side tilt, Flame Choke and maybe even Warlock Punch will most likely stay though. Those are all actually canon.

I don't think it would be as dramatic as that. Clones getting big shakeups like that aren't super uncommon. Ganondorf might receive them again in the next game, but I doubt we'll see Captain Falcon's DNA leave entirely, or even for the most part.

Honestly, I thought she was lighter too. I don't know if her jump height is identical as well, but the floating cosmetic effect really is cool either way.

If you want something hilarious, Dr. Mario had a different weight in the PAL version of Melee, meaning he's the only one "similar to an Echo" that had a different weight at any point. The fact he's not an Echo just makes it even funnier.

That said, we don't know if it's a pattern or hard rule anyway. Unlike the bodyshape rule(confirmed by Sakurai more than once). Which unfortunately isn't stated enough, since there's still too many attempts to make things work that really cannot.

My guess would be that it's a pattern upheld by the rules at play. Since Echo Fighters don't typically receive very many changes, and only one has even had changes that affect their playstyle, there's really no need to alter their weight. If we were to get an Echo Fighter with a weight change, I think it would be Akuma, who has "easy to kill" built in to his identity.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sorry, I meant at first I thought she was lighter, heh. And ah, 100% same attributes for Dark Samus. Thank you for that information.

Also, Chrom and Lucina lacking a sweetspot does affect their playstyle, though it's more during Ultimate for Lucina's case.

Here's hoping Daisy, Richter, and Dark Samus get a bit more change-ups. Lucina, Chrom, and Ken are pretty good~ Dark Pit's kind of odd where he feels like he's almost there, but just not. But isn't as bad as the first three. Though he's still almost as bad.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Anyways, here's a prediction on Falcondorf before we move on; Falcondorf dies as a moveset, but lives on in playstyle.

This would be a pretty big departure from how Sakurai normally approaches moveset updating, but hear me out. My argument lies on the sword smashes. I believe the sword smashes in Ultimate were Sakurai testing the waters to see how fans would actually respond to a Canondorf, instead of just changing everything at once. And it turns out people loved the sword smashes. And now with that blessing, I think Sakurai will take that chance to give the rest of his kit that treatment.

It's worth noting these sword smashes were all designed to feel like his old smashes, just swordified. I think this is the big reason Falcondorf fans accepted them, because they still fit with the disrespectful nature they've grown to love. So I expect most (not all) of his kit to get the same treatment; functionally close sword (or I guess club) moves, maybe some magic ones too, that broadly preserve the "feel" of the physical variants while also not being Falcon rips.

EDIT: Stuff like side tilt, Flame Choke and maybe even Warlock Punch will most likely stay though. Those are all actually canon.

On one hand, it feels to me like the sword moves were just the easy way out of really committing to decloning Ganondorf. They do what you should expect smash attacks to do in either case, they utilize pre-existing sword animations from Ike and Cloud, and they didn't even replace Warlock Punch with his Warlock Blade custom special from 4 while they were at it despite having the assets.

On the other hand, this custom Swordiedorf moveset feels like Falcondorf's playstyle with more disjoints and even includes his Ultimate forward smash, so it is possible to go even further with making Ganondorf less of a Falcon clone without alienating fans of his current gameplay

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I-
Wait, really?
View attachment 396038
Huh. I genuinely thought they made Dark Samus slightly lighter because she's always floating

This whole time I've been gaslighting myself with incorrect informationView attachment 396039

I mean, it makes sense to assume she'd be lighter.

Both Mewtwo and Rosalina are lightweight because of how they are in a permanent levitation, so Dark Samus NOT being lightweight like them despite also levitating is an outlier that is specifically so she has the same stats as the grounded Samus.

 

[Gorgonzales]

If the next Smash has an Adventure Mode that was similar to Melee, what levels would you like to see?

Gangplank Galleon would be very cool. Not like the boss arena from DKC1, but moreso the expansive levels from DKC2.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

On one hand, it feels to me like the sword moves were just the easy way out of really committing to decloning Ganondorf. They do what you should expect smash attacks to do in either case, they utilize pre-existing sword animations from Ike and Cloud, and they didn't even replace Warlock Punch with his Warlock Blade custom special from 4 while they were at it despite having the assets.

It's easy to see why; Warlock Blade has a lot less power and is more about finesse. Ganondorf isn't a finesse character. He's less about sweetspots and more about hitting like a mack truck. His new Sword techniques also encompass that. Also, his latest Smash Bros. Sword doesn't really fit that well for a single stab like that, compared to being more used like a blunt swinging option.

It's basically the combination that flows well with his intended image(powerful strikes with force behind them) and what weapon is used overall. Just because his sword in TP is also used for blunt strikes doesn't mean it makes sense in Smash. Etc. Sakurai has different interpretations of how weapons should work, and sometimes, the official canon version doesn't fit his design style.

Ike and Cloud are heavy sword users anyway. It makes a lot of sense with the way they programmed it.

IMO, the problematic moves are really Volcano Kick(due to not having super armor, it's only really good for edgeguarding) and Dark Dive(this doesn't really fit him at all). Warlock Punch fits his point fine, and Wizard's Foot doesn't really feel unfitting since he kicks in canon and it matches well enough with some of his animations. It's just the first two that don't have any point of reference or feel good to use at any point. Wizard's Foot is more on the questionable side, though, but Warlock Punch just fits him so well these days. The only Up B's I've found to even fit well is either using Dark Fists(which doesn't make the recovery better, though) and a Teleport(which he does in multiple games, regardless of being Ganon or Ganondorf).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as DK's general status, it's to Nintendo what Castlevania is to Konami; a critical brand important enough to keep in the spotlight via crossovers/re-releases, and media appearances, but not vital enough to have new entries for. The theme park section reflects that in some ways. I think if the IP was in a stronger place, I might be more inclined to cut it some slack.

But with 10 years of no new games, very pat merch/marketing of the franchise, and the most notable recent crossover cameo being K Rool in Smash and Diddy/Funky in (literally the last DLC of) Mario Kart 8? I can't say I'm terribly inclined to be that blown away by a theme park section inspired by the DK game with the most generic setting, a minimum cast, and even more basic merchandise. I'd glad it's there and I'll never object to such a park potentially being a gateway experience for new/younger fans to try the series, but it feels less like a tremendous acknowledgement of the series that I should be grateful for and more a practical reality that DK's name/nature just lends itself to a theme park with greater ease than other Nintendo IP's.

It's a novel section of Super Nintendo World; I'll happily give it credit if/when it becomes more than that.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I feel like the opinion on Donkey Kong's status is honestly a little overblown, and I mentioned it last night, but Retro has been working on Prime 4 for like 5-7 years, which was obviously not how it was intended to go based on the development restart two years in and that as soon as Retro picked it up, a global pandemic hit.

Sure, Nintendo could find someone else to make DK games or try and make one themselves, but Returns and Tropical Freeze are pretty critically acclaimed, so why shift Donkey Kong away from Retro?

I still kinda feel like once Prime 4 comes out, Retro will start work--or has potentially already started work on one, since Prime 4 comes out next year and they may be winding down development depending on when it comes out--on a new DK game for Switch 2, since I can't imagine Nintendo hasn't realized DK hasn't had a new game in a decade.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Hot take, I'm not terribly big on Retro coming back to DK. I love Returns as well as Tropical Freeze and their efforts really brought back the series big time after the experiments in the aughts. But the idea of DK being the side games that Retro works on in between Metroid titles just bothers me. I think an actual dedicated studio (maybe something in house) would give the series a more deserving consistency versus the constant couch surfing it's been doing ever since Rare was bought out.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Hot take, I'm not terribly big on Retro coming back to DK. I love Returns as well as Tropical Freeze and their efforts really brought back the series big time after the experiments in the aughts. But the idea of DK being the side games that Retro works on in between Metroid titles just bothers me. I think an actual dedicated studio (maybe something in house) would give the series a more deserving consistency versus the constant couch surfing it's been doing ever since Rare was bought out.

I mean you say that, but this is also the first new Prime game Retro has worked on since Corruption in 2007 lol

After Corruption, it was Prime Trilogy, DKCR, part of Mario Kart 7, Tropical Freeze, and Prime 1 Remastered.

Had to check Federation Force since it has the Prime subtitle, but that was done by Next Level Games.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean you say that, but this is also the first new Prime game Retro has worked on since Corruption in 2007 lol

After Corruption, it was Prime Trilogy, DKCR, part of Mario Kart 7, Tropical Freeze, and Prime 1 Remastered.

Had to check Federation Force since it has the Prime subtitle, but that was done by Next Level Games.

There's also been speculation that in the mid 2010's there was a projected they were working on (seemingly a new IP) that was ultimately canceled; basically explaining what Retro were largely doing post Tropical Freeze pre-Prime 4. DK and 3D Metroid are both deserving of their own dedicated studios and it feels like a shame that either one has to wait so long for another title given Nintendo's resources.

 

[SharkLord]

I mean, it makes sense to assume she'd be lighter.

Both Mewtwo and Rosalina are lightweight because of how they are in a permanent levitation, so Dark Samus NOT being lightweight like them despite also levitating is an outlier that is specifically so she has the same stats as the grounded Samus.

Yeah, and Sakurai specifically highlighted her altered animations during her reveal, on top of all the fire effects being replaced by electric Phazon. I had always thought making her slightly more lightweight was part of the package, but I guess the differences stop there

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

There's also been speculation that in the mid 2010's there was a projected they were working on (seemingly a new IP) that was ultimately canceled; basically explaining what Retro were largely doing post Tropical Freeze pre-Prime 4. DK and 3D Metroid are both deserving of their own dedicated studios and it feels like a shame that either one has to wait so long for another title given Nintendo's resources.

This is fair about it being a shame that either has to wait for so long, but considering how DK went in the mid-2000s after 64 post-Rare with games all over the place like Jungle Climber, King of Swing, Jungle Beat, Donkey Konga, and Barrel Blast, I'm not exactly eager to take DK away from Retro lmao

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

This is fair about it being a shame that either has to wait for so long, but considering how DK went in the mid-2000s after 64 post-Rare with games all over the place like Jungle Climber, King of Swing, Jungle Beat, Donkey Konga, and Barrel Blast, I'm not exactly eager to take DK away from Retro lmao

Given how strong Retro's output was with their two DK games, this is a fair point. They and Rare had a certain magic with the series that (while still very solid with stuff like Jungle Beat) its been hard for others to match.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

If the next Smash has an Adventure Mode that was similar to Melee, what levels would you like to see?

A story/adventure mode where you have some branching paths.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Given how strong Retro's output was with their two DK games, this is a fair point. They and Rare had a certain magic with the series that (while still very solid with stuff like Jungle Beat) its been hard for others to match.

Now I DO think MercurySteam could probably make a hell of a 3D Metroid game considering the cutscene direction and stuff of Dread, but it depends on the direction Nintendo would want to go in the future with them. I imagine we'll see MercurySteam again considering Dread was like the biggest success story Metroid has ever had, but yeah.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Now I DO think MercurySteam could probably make a hell of a 3D Metroid game considering the cutscene direction and stuff of Dread, but it depends on the direction Nintendo would want to go in the future with them. I imagine we'll see MercurySteam again considering Dread was like the biggest success story Metroid has ever had, but yeah.

I'm just waiting for the strange twist where MercurySteam somehow ends up doing a DK where the Kongs are in spooky castle/base but still look just as happy go lucky and bounce on fearsome enemies' heads.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

DK really does just need a developer. That's literally the only reason we haven't gotten a DK game in a long time.

There are rumors that other companies have tried making DK games, but for one reason or another it never stuck. Why do you think that is?

I think it's because Nintendo has a high standard for DK, personally.

 

[Gorgonzales]

There are rumors that other companies have tried making DK games, but for one reason or another it never stuck. Why do you think that is?

It's simple. Mismanagement. Pretty sure Donkey Kong Freedom was axed due to corporate greed messing up its whole production. (If it was real in the first place, which I personally believe it was.)

 

[Noipoi]

DK really does just need a developer. That's literally the only reason we haven't gotten a DK game in a long time.

There are rumors that other companies have tried making DK games, but for one reason or another it never stuck. Why do you think that is?

I think it's because Nintendo has a high standard for DK, personally.

As a series, Donkey Kong has been couch surfing from studio to studio since the turn of the century.

What DK needs is a permanent home. A studio that’ll dedicate themselves to putting out a new DK project every few years, just like other Nintendo franchises.

 

[ninjahmos]

It kinda feels like Sakurai might be afraid of change and taking risks, which I can understand. But there are some characters in need of a rework, whether it be in terms of movesets or characterizations. He can't keep sticking with Falcondorf forever.

Speaking of movesets, and I'm not sure if this has already been posted here before, but I saw that Sonic has a better moveset in Project M than in official Smash. At least, better normal attacks.

On a slightly unrelated note, I think they should start taking more resources from spin-offs, not just first-party but third-party too, especially music.