Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

So, how do you guys feel about the Switch era characters?



Do you think they were good inclusions? Do you think they were included too early? Do you think their gameplay is worth keeping? Do you think they'll stay around?

Min Min is by far my favorite of the bunch, she's very unique and I like to play as her. She's also cartoony and weird, classic Nintendo style.
Byleth was omega disappointing at first but I'd say he's actually a pretty fine fighter. Nothing too crazy but he's honest and he has a couple of very funny moves.
Pyra and Mythra don't really do anything for me. I almost feel like being comically overtuned is the only thing that makes them memorable.

They're probably all going to stay.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I'll be honest, given how cyclical this one thread tends to be topic-wise, I don't see the point in spreading things out to a bunch of different character threads? Like if y'all though there wasn't much to talk about now, imagine splitting off all the "what are these guys' chances" talk into seperate dedicated threads.

Doesn't help that we don't know how far out we are from next Smash. It could be announced in some brief way with the switch 2 in the next 3 months. It could be two years out before the first trailer.

Edit: man, now that I think about it, it's crazy how long the wait between smashes could be. Obviously rising dev time on average plus dlc extending a game's lifespan, but we're already past a similar length of time to the gap between Brawl and 4, aren't we? Huh.

 

[Jave]

I've been thinking lately, how would you feel about Toad & Toadette as a duo-type character like the Ice Climbers? I've been leaning more towards that lately rather than Toad or Captain Toad with Toadette/Cpt. Toadette as an alt/echo.

 

[fogbadge]

I've been thinking lately, how would you feel about Toad & Toadette as a duo-type character like the Ice Climbers? I've been leaning more towards that lately rather than Toad or Captain Toad with Toadette/Cpt. Toadette as an alt/echo.

I will take whatever ever I can get

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I've been thinking lately, how would you feel about Toad & Toadette as a duo-type character like the Ice Climbers?

...I guess I don't? I'm not opposed to it but I'd have to see how it would work to be on board for it.

 

[jamesster445]

So, how do you guys feel about the Switch era characters?



Do you think they were good inclusions? Do you think they were included too early? Do you think their gameplay is worth keeping? Do you think they'll stay around?

50-50
Byleth was decided before their game even came out, but the other two could've been base game.
Yes
Yes for all three but to varying degrees, But I say they're all more likely to stay.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but the other two could've been base game.

No they couldn't have, Sakurai said that when he made Rex FP1's bonus costume.

 

[jamesster445]

No they couldn't have, Sakurai said that when he made Rex FP1's bonus costume.

Let me clarify.
They could've been base game, if there was more time/development schedules were adjusted.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Let me clarify.
They could've been base game, if there was more time/development schedules were adjusted.

SSBU was in development for three years, that's pretty long already especially by fighting game standards.

 

[Perkilator]

I guess I’m gonna go ahead and say it: Pyra/Mythra and Min Min should’ve been in Fighters Pass Vol. 1, and Byleth should’ve been in Fighters Pass Vol. 2.

 

[jamesster445]

SSBU was in development for three years, that's pretty long already.

/development schedules were adjusted.

Pre-production for Ultimate which includes building the roster pretty much started and finished before XB2 or ARMS were revealed/released. If the pre-production period concluded after the release of those two games, we could've seen them in Ultimate's base game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pre-production for Ultimate which includes building the roster pretty much started and finished before XB2 or ARMS were revealed/released. If the pre-production period concluded after the release of those two games, we could've seen them in Ultimate's base game.

And probably at the cost at some of the very few unique newcomers we already got since newcomer resources were limited. I'd rather have the timeline where we got both Ridley and Pythra, thank you.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

50-50
Byleth was decided before their game even came out, but the other two could've been base game.

No the **** they could not have.

 

[jamesster445]

And probably at the cost at some of the very few unique newcomers we already got since newcomer resources were limited. I'd rather have the timeline where we got both Ridley and Pythra, thank you.

Hence why I said could, not would, or should.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I guess I’m gonna go ahead and say it: Pyra/Mythra and Min Min should’ve been in Fighters Pass Vol. 1, and Byleth should’ve been in Fighters Pass Vol. 2.

If Minmin and Byleth were swapped in the lineup people would have had less of a problem with Byleth's inclusion imo.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Hence why I said could, not would, or should.

The project proposal was drafted in mid December of 2015.

Characters were already locked in at that point with the sole exception of one () which was given a placeholder until Sun and Moon's release.

There is no conceivable way someone from ARMS or Xenoblade 2 could have been part of the base roster.

If Minmin and Byleth were swapped in the lineup people would have had less of a problem with Byleth's inclusion imo.

Not really.

Relatively more hate would have gone Min Min's way, especially if they did the whole "someone from ARMS" guessing game, but Byleth would still be following up on that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Not really.

Relatively more hate would have gone Min Min's way, especially if they did the whole "someone from ARMS" guessing game, but Byleth would still be following up on that.

And you can't stop the "more FE" complaints no matter when they get added in the DLC. It's not worth trying.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've been thinking lately, how would you feel about Toad & Toadette as a duo-type character like the Ice Climbers?

Bad. That's not even how they play.

I'd rather they be alts/echoes.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

If Minmin and Byleth were swapped in the lineup people would have had less of a problem with Byleth's inclusion imo.

I mean maybe slightly because Byleth wouldn't be ending the first group of fighters, but not likely considering Byleth would still be the 8th FE character and they'd still presumably have the most dog**** trailer in the series lmao

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as I know, Fire Emblem hate is based off of the premise that there's 8 of them, and half of those are Marth. Ike sometimes gets roped into the "blue haired anime swordsman" argument, but in general people like Ike, and the argument itself kind of got replaced with "anime swordsmen with down-b counter", which isn't a Fire Emblem problem, though they are a part of it.

Generally, people seem to be chill with Byleth, and while some of the people that played 3 Houses (me included) might take issue with his moveset premise, it is apprecieated that they tried something new. Corrin still seems to be the only non-Marth character that's still a sticking point since due to the extreme de-emphasis of his unique mechanics, he's a very standard swordfighter character, and that's on top of Fire Emblem: Fates's poor reputation.

 

[Dukefire]

As far as I know, Fire Emblem hate is based off of the premise that there's 8 of them, and half of those are Marth. Ike sometimes gets roped into the "blue haired anime swordsman" argument, but in general people like Ike, and the argument itself kind of got replaced with "anime swordsmen with down-b counter", which isn't a Fire Emblem problem, though they are a part of it.

Generally, people seem to be chill with Byleth, and while some of the people that played 3 Houses (me included) might take issue with his moveset premise, it is apprecieated that they tried something new. Corrin still seems to be the only non-Marth character that's still a sticking point since due to the extreme de-emphasis of his unique mechanics, he's a very standard swordfighter character, and that's on top of Fire Emblem: Fates's poor reputation.

Its sad that FE's over representation is the reason why fans are distasteful of other anime looking swordfighters like Hero from Dragon Quest during first impressions...

 

[Perkilator]

As far as I know, Fire Emblem hate is based off of the premise that there's 8 of them, and half of those are Marth. Ike sometimes gets roped into the "blue haired anime swordsman" argument, but in general people like Ike, and the argument itself kind of got replaced with "anime swordsmen with down-b counter", which isn't a Fire Emblem problem, though they are a part of it.

Generally, people seem to be chill with Byleth, and while some of the people that played 3 Houses (me included) might take issue with his moveset premise, it is apprecieated that they tried something new. Corrin still seems to be the only non-Marth character that's still a sticking point since due to the extreme de-emphasis of his unique mechanics, he's a very standard swordfighter character, and that's on top of Fire Emblem: Fates's poor reputation.

I like to think that FE's representation would feel less extreme if the lineup in the next Smash game was:

• Marth
• Ike
• Robin
• Byleth
• Whoever the next FE newcomer is

 

[Diddy Kong]

A Marth clone of sorts is inevitable, a Link clone of sorts as well. There have been more Smash games with a clone of either character than there are Smash games without one of these. And in the case of Brawl which lacks a Marth clone, Roy was still planned for inclusion.

I think Lucina and Chrom therefore are pretty safe for a next Smash. But I think they'll have a different move set than in Ultimate, and will be made clones/ Echoes of each other.

And Toon Link will probably stay too as Link will get overhauled more little by little.

 

[Ivander]

Generally, people seem to be chill with Byleth, and while some of the people that played 3 Houses (me included) might take issue with his moveset premise, it is apprecieated that they tried something new. Corrin still seems to be the only non-Marth character that's still a sticking point since due to the extreme de-emphasis of his unique mechanics, he's a very standard swordfighter character, and that's on top of Fire Emblem: Fates's poor reputation.

More than half of Corrin's movement utilizes their transformation mechanic, so they have a strong emphasis on what makes them unique from the other sword fighters. The actual main issue is that functionally, Corrin still has similarities to Marth's gameplay, between the tippers, the Up-Air and Forward-Air moves and the problem every Fire Emblem character has aside from Robin and Byleth, a Counter move.

That's really Corrin's issue. It's not their gimmick that's underutilized, it's that their functionality shares a notable amount from Marth, despite most of Corrin's moveset being different from Marth's. Like Corrin's Forward Smash is very different from Marth, but both share the tipper sweetspot mechanic. Even Byleth has a bit of that issue with their Spear-based attacks having a tipper mechanic. Most of the other Fire Emblem characters still borrow from Marth, whether moveset-wise or mechanically, with the only two who differentiate from Marth greatly are Ike and Robin.

 

[Laniv]

I've been thinking lately, how would you feel about Toad & Toadette as a duo-type character like the Ice Climbers? I've been leaning more towards that lately rather than Toad or Captain Toad with Toadette/Cpt. Toadette as an alt/echo.

It's... less than ideal. I'd prefer not to step on the Ice Climbers' toes, or to saddle Toad and Toadette with unnecessary gimmicks for the sake of uniqueness.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I like to think that FE's representation would feel less extreme if the lineup in the next Smash game was:

• Marth
• Ike
• Robin
• Byleth
• Whoever the next FE newcomer is

This is basically what I'm thinking next game. The face of the series, one of the most popular characters, the character from the game that brought the series back from the brink, and the one from the most successful entry, alongside the new face (I'm thinking Alear for base and the next protag for DLC because it feels like they're setting up a pattern here lol). Maybe alongside Lucina because she's an Echo of Marth and an extremely popular character in her own right.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I like to think that FE's representation would feel less extreme if the lineup in the next Smash game was:

• Marth
• Ike
• Robin
• Byleth
• Whoever the next FE newcomer is

Lucina is so popular, and echo fighters like her are so easy to add, I don’t see a point in removing her. If we get cuts I do expect Roy and Corrin to go, and if Roy is cut Chrom probably will be too.

 

[Guynamednelson]

and echo fighters like her are so easy to add

Depends on if they reuse SSBU's models again.

That said we probably shouldn't expect the next Smash to finally be the one that's clone-free if all 5 games have added them in some form and like you said they take less work. But they're not all Dark Pit levels of less work.

 

[Dukefire]

Depends on if they reuse SSBU's models again.

That said we probably shouldn't expect the next Smash to finally be the one that's clone-free if all 5 games have added them in some form and like you said they take less work. But they're not all Dark Pit levels of less work.

Echoes are made from existing models, just adjusted based on the echo's given moveset.

Chrom is Roy and Ike combined likewise with Lucina to Marth. Though, Lucina to Marth moveset makes sense with Awakening's story using the Hero King's legend to rally troops to fight against the evil.

 

[Kirbeh]

I've seen a lot of Smash movesets get criticized lately, for one reason or another. So, what are your favorite movesets in Smash? Because they're fun to play, they represent the character well, they're balanced, etc.

Spoiler

Great As Is A: Characters I would give the usual balancing tweaks and maybe change one move, be it property wise or perhaps an outright replacement.

Great As Is B: Characters who I would change 2-5 moves (animation and/or functionality wise.)
Good/Update: Characters who I would change up to a third of their move set and/or significantly overhaul their stats/balancing (for the latter)
Overhaul: Characters who I would change at least half or more of their move set, balance, and game plan.

So, how do you guys feel about the Switch era characters?



Do you think they were good inclusions? Do you think they were included too early? Do you think their gameplay is worth keeping? Do you think they'll stay around?

I think they were all good inclusions, though I dislike the execution of , and for those two in particular I think they should have flipped their placements in the passes if only to potentially reduce some of backlash Byleth got at the end of FP1.

MinMin might have still been considered "less hype" for still being a first party but as a new series, I think she would have been better received in that spot. A lukewarm reception is still better that outright disdain.

Byleth would have no doubt still received backlash, but maybe the extra few months would allow people to be more accepting of Three Houses' success. Though I honestly doubt the difference would be all that significant to be honest.

I think they all have a good shot of sticking around.

I've been thinking lately, how would you feel about Toad & Toadette as a duo-type character like the Ice Climbers? I've been leaning more towards that lately rather than Toad or Captain Toad with Toadette/Cpt. Toadette as an alt/echo.

Wouldn't like that tbh. I do want Toadette in the game too, but I'd be fine with her were serving an alt. to either or both of Toad/Captain Toad. Maybe an echo if they're so inclined. Even if she doesn't get her own spot as a unique character, I think she could still be well represented using the move sets of the latter two. Anything they can do, she's also capable of doing, and the only Toadette exclusive ability I can think of would be something involving Peachette.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I've been thinking lately, how would you feel about Toad & Toadette as a duo-type character like the Ice Climbers? I've been leaning more towards that lately rather than Toad or Captain Toad with Toadette/Cpt. Toadette as an alt/echo.

We have the Ice Climbers already. I don't want their gimmick tacked onto Toad and Toadette just because.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I don't play FE and was never the most knowledgeable about it, but I think reducing the roster to Marth, Ike and Robin would be a good start, as they're all unique and weren't highly controversial. And then you could add a character from whatever the most recent FE game will be on top of them.

 

[Kirbeh]

Its sad that FE's over representation is the reason why fans are distasteful of other anime looking swordfighters like Hero from Dragon Quest during first impressions...

If I'm being perfectly honest, while FE exacerbates the issue, I don't think a smaller selection of FE characters would have significantly improved Hero's western reception or any character with an "anime" look.

There will always be exceptions of course, , but generally speaking, any character without a huge hold in the west will be criticized by the west. It's the Goku problem or perk if you're an FF or KH character. Loads of people in the west dislike anime/anime style games but will swear by DBZ or Pokémon because it's among of the few they tried/were exposed to and it helps in DBZ's case that Toriyama's art is so distinct (Pokémon's got a pretty distinct look too actually and there's the benefit of you know, the Pokémon.)

I've no doubt that any series like Phantasy Star, Ys, Trails, Disgaea, Bravely, even Tales etc. would all get negative to mixed reception in the west.

As for the FE lineup itself, it's- difficult imo.

On the one hand, people complain about Marth clones, but Roy is a fan favorite among Smash players and both Chrom and Lucina are very popular and significant characters from one of the most popular and significant games in the series. And if the base character is there, there's little reason to not include them again. If you're cutting characters not to save on dev time/costs and instead just to appease western fans who want to see "number go down" I don't really see the point. It's not like these characters/series don't have established and growing western audiences of their own either.

While I do think they're fun to play, Corrin really is the only one I see as having more genuinely going against them if they want to trim things down, and even then, that more than likely comes with a new FE character getting brought in anyway.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Fire Emblem dislike is a number of things. A distaste for an anime pretty boy aesthetic from a fanbase with many very fond of more traditionally cartoonish characters, a tendency (for a while) for them to often be sword users, and a perceived over-representation in Smash given their status within Nintendo. Put it all together and you get the whipping boy of SSB online speculation/discussion.

Incidentally I do think timing did somewhat affect the reaction to Byleth, but the key fighter to switch reveals with was Terry Bogard. Yes, there was always going be grumbling about FE getting another character, but that January 2020 presentation had some issues. It was the bad fortune of being the last DLC character of fighter's pass that previously all had third party figures, arrived when speculation about Dante (and others) was running rampant, came in a very "meh" executed reveal video, and debuted in a Smash only presentation with no general Nintendo news to alleviate potential disappointment/disinterest in them on top of being a mystery showcase that got many imaginations going.

Show off Byleth back in the previous September in the same presentation with Sans? You have a backlash much more tempered by broader Nintendo news and a Mii Costume reveal that would have been arguably the bigger story. The way Sakurai Presents Byleth was executed instead almost seemed designed to maximize antipathy, which was a pity given how solid a character they ended up being.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

due to the extreme de-emphasis of his unique mechanics, he's a very standard swordfighter character, and that's on top of Fire Emblem: Fates's poor reputation.

The ironic thing here is that Smash was what started the trend of Fire Emblem exploring Corrin's dragon powers.

In Fates, you get one chapter where it matters, it's never explored again and after that, any usage of dragon transformation is not only entirely optional but usually worse than just... using the Yato sword.

Smash did far more with Corrin's dragon blood than Fates did. Heck, I would even argue it's the Yato sword that's heavily de-emphasized because you've got a ****ing handheld chainsaw and that property is only applied exactly once which is still one more time than Fates.

 

[Guynamednelson]

chainsaw and that property is only applied exactly once

When you're charging their forward smash? Something like that might as well be considered an Easter egg, not a legit part of their gameplan.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

When you're charging their forward smash? Something like that might as well be considered an Easter egg, not a legit part of their gameplan.

What makes it even more hilarious is that the very existence of that sword in that form is a big late-game spoiler for the third route. Bro spoiled a game that wasn't even out yet just for an easter egg.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, are there any existing stages you think would benefit from massive improvements in graphical and processing power?

Gareg Mach Monastery looks pretty good but the character cameos look awful. I'd love for better models on that stage.

 

[cashregister9]

Honestly for Fire Emblem, this San-ei plush line I feel is a good indicator for what IntSys thinks is the most important FE characters

+ anything made after 2022 when the 3H plushes came out

 

[Perkilator]

So, are there any existing stages you think would benefit from massive improvements in graphical and processing power?

Gareg Mach Monastery looks pretty good but the character cameos look awful. I'd love for better models on that stage.

As far as stages that have never returned, I think Poké Floats would benefit from having the Pokémon models actually be hot air balloons, along with cameos from some of the human characters.