Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

Huh, never thought I'd see someone come up with an idea to not only KEEP the Koopalings in Smash, but also come up with ways to make them semi-clones of Bowser Jr..

As for the 8th slot? I won't lie, I've always defaulted to Boom-Boom myself, but thinking about it now? Yeah, maybe Nabbit wouldn't be such a weird choice. Heck, in an ironic sense? It's a bit tricky for me to describe, but the very thought of Nabbit being a sort of "surprise character" in this sense of HIM suddenly driving a Clown Car AND the fact that HE'S the 8th alt. skin slot for this character.

I like Boom-Boom but if we got him, I'd want Pom-Pom to be included too. They're a package deal to me at this point.

And more importantly, you'd have to fudge their proportions a lot more than what they did for the Koopalings. Boom's huge arms are a defining feature, just imagining him with small hands feels weird imo.

As for Nabbit, I chose him based on the fact that he's among the more prominent secondary/mook characters. His major appearances are in the 2D Mario games, same as the Koopalings, so there's some association there already. Doesn't hurt that he's actually playable in some games so people will be familiar with him in that way too.

Plus, the idea of Nabbit nabbing a clown car to participate in Smash feels kind of in character in a way? Either that or he's our Bowser Jr. stand in since he's already got the mask/bandana.

When this Pokemon 'gigaleak' happened, seeing the concept art for Gen. IV (among other generations) reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask all of you. What would you all think about the idea of Garchomp joining Smash Bros., BUT it (or I guess, SHE, in this case) was accompanied by Cynthia?

Like, Garchomp wouldn't share a slot with any of Cynthia's other Pokémon (like Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard), it'd just be Garchomp and Garchomp alone, with Cynthia mostly there for aesthetic purposes. That is to say, Cynthia would still "command" Garchomp like Red and Leaf do with THEIR Pokémon.

In addition, the character would be referred to as 'Cynthia and Garchomp'.

This is actually something I've wanted for a long while, though not quite exactly in the same way. Copy/pasting from my costume thread:

So, I've been thinking about what kind of costumes to give for Pokémon since they generally don't wear clothes. Actual costumes do exist already, with even Smash doing this through hats and accessories for Pikachu, Jigglypuff and Pichu. Full on alternate costumes though remain a bit more limited.

An idea I've been thinking about is adding trainers to the solo Pokémon as their "costume." The Pokémon themselves still need something else on their bodies to differentiate them from each other, but I think it'd be a neat way to rep more of the human characters by adding them as background trainers for certain Pokémon.

So as an example:

Solo being the default option, where there's no bg trainer like normal, and the trainers chosen being associated with the Pokémon in some way.

Solo

Chase

Elaine

Poké Kid

Red

Solo

Maylene

Riley

Korrina

Cynthia

Solo

Elio

Selene

Masked Royal

Prof. Kukui

Then the trainers themselves could also have palette swaps to match the Pokémon or even different outfits themselves in certain cases, like using some of what was introduced in Masters EX, etc.

I really need to rewatch some gameplay of Gyromite again to confirm this, but I'm pretty sure that part of how I've advocated for R.O.B. getting his own stage was via 75m getting reskinned, as I THINK Gyromite contained a level that looked similar to 75m, but with different colored girders and what not.

Again, need to rewatch gameplay of Gyromite to be sure.

I have to echo ScrubReborn here. If went this long without a stage, just to be hit with a reskin of 75m, I'd rather not get a stage at all.

I'd be totally down for retaining the retro aesthetic like 75m and Mario Bros., but if they're going to give us a Gyromite stage I want the aesthetic and unique stage gimmicks on an actually functional layout. A Smash original layout that incorporates all the necessary elements would be much more preferable than a literal copy of an in-game level (though I'm sure there are viable choices there as with DK, they seriously could have picked any other stage.).

Really hope I'm not coming off as pedantic for saying this, but Metal Combat is the sequel to Battle Clash, isn't it? All the same though, I wouldn't mind Michael Anderson (the main protagonist of BOTH games) join Smash as a playable character.

Frankly, I've been quite intrigued over how Smash would tackle him as a playable character. Would Smash Bros. pull a 'Marvel vs. Capcom' and have him be Smash's equivalent to Cyberbots's Jin Saotome, having him fight on foot? Or would his mech, the S.T. Falcon be playable instead (with him controlling it from the inside)?

I know pretty much nothing about these game's but if you're telling we can get a Smash version of Blodia, I'm sold.

EDIT: After looking up a longplay at 2x speed, I desperately need a Battle Clash/Metal Combat stage.

This would most definitely be a Jin situation though, given that these are giant mechs. You can't really shrink one down and still have Michael piloting it. I'm all in favor though, the games look really cool and it's not like they can't cook up another (partial) Smash original moveset to make it work. Either that or they shrink the mech down into a suit to make a much bulkier/tanky Samus style character.

Either way, the one thing I would want is an updated design for Mike. The style was common for character design back then, but I can already see/hear the "Terry with a haircut" comments. I do like classic the look and would still want it in game as an alt, but I'd also like some older characters get the Brawl Pit treatment.

I mentioned this a while back, but I'd actually like to see Urban Champion as a cross-series clone of Little Mac.
View attachment 395271View attachment 395270

Have to disagree on this one. UC is a guy that punches, and the game was inspired by the G&W version of PO but I feel like that's pretty forced.

Mac is a professional boxer, the UC is a guy getting into street fights. I wouldn't expect UC to have the same fighting style as a pro boxer nor do I think that Mac's specials are good fits.

If they did UC, you'd pretty much have to give him a completely original moveset. How you go about that, I'm unsure of. It's not really a character I ever took into consideration, but if it's a wholly original moveset (except for maybe jab, but that's not much of a difference,) then I think there's plenty you could do, especially if you stretch the limits on creative liberty.

If not a character though, I think he'd make for a good costume. I definitely do want an Urban Champion stage though.

Finally, there's something I'd like to ask to... well, anyone who'd care to give me a response on this. A couple of years ago, I actually came up with a moveset for Lark from Pilotwings and it was posted on SourceGaming (I'm pretty sure I was even the FIRST guest article for their Dream Smashers articles, so that was pretty neat).

Dream Smashers – Lark (Pilotwings)

Lark takes flight in the latest edition of Dream Smashers, this time written by guest smashkirby. How can a Pilotwings character work as a fighter? Well give it a read and find out!

sourcegaming.info

I'll be the first to admit, I DID have to do a pretty good deal of reaching to give Lark a (fairly) functional moveset and looking at it now? I'd probably change some stuff now (such as what costumes Lark would utilize, removing fellow pilot-in-training Kiwi from the equation entirely), but THAT'S what I'm wanting to ask here.

I recently played as Jill Valentine in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 via the MvC Fighting Collection, and her moveset made me wonder... would it hurt to give Lark some of her attacks (such as Close Fighting, which is basically a tackle attack) and her Super Attacks (Close Fighting +, CODE: T-002 [primarily the portion where she sets off an explosive mine], and Rocket Launcher)?

For the record, Lark hasn't been depicted doing something so 'physical' before (nor have any of the other characters in the Pilotwings series, for that matter), thus putting him in a similar boat to Fox and Captain Falcon, pre-Smash 64.

BUT given how Smash at one point in time would be willing to create movesets for characters that had SOME basis in their home series, do you all think if Lark were to somehow join Smash, using such moves wouldn't be TOO out-of-place for him (or any other Pilotwings character)?

I actually quite like the moveset you made for him. There are some things I'd do differently (but that's a given, everyone has different ideas for x or y thing.) overall though, I'd say it's solid.

As for Jill, that honestly feels like a completely out of left field sort of thing. I'd personally say no to Lark suddenly pulling out a rocket launcher, though I do have ask if those are even in PilotWings? Never played the series, only seen snippets of gameplay.

As for getting "physical" with their moves, it's kind of a necessity. If you're dropping a character into a fighting game, they've got to have attacks of some kind. Especially when it comes to characters with source material that doesn't give them as much to pull from, I really don't see any issue with giving some punches/kicks to characters like Lark or whoever.

A little cartoon guy throwing some punches like Mario doesn't seem out of place or out of character when the setting is Smash. It's about incorporating them when/as needed. After all, he'd still have all the other actual PilotWings related stuff to fully flesh out his kit right?

 

[DarthEnderX]

What if you really wanted each individual character in a transformation but realize the transformation is the only way to get all of them? Like people who are really big fans of Squirtle or Ivysaur.

Why would that ever be "the only way"? There's no reason Squirtle or Ivysaur couldn't be solo characters. Unlikely? Sure. Undoable? No. If they can do it for Charizard, they can do it with any of them.

Not to mention, nobody was asking for Squirtle or Ivysaur in the first place. In fact, getting them as part of PT, has basically removed any chance of getting the far more popular Blastoise and Venusaur.

EDIT: Honestly, I wouldn't mind the option for at least Charizard since he's been both separate and together before, and it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to implement.

At the very least, solo'zard should be PT's Echo.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the option for at least Charizard since he's been both separate and together before, and it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to implement.

If it was up to me, all transform characters (so really just Trainer and Aegis) would have selectable alt counterparts that just let you play whichever part of the team solo, with a new down special/final smash for the character too. Prolly would do it via a pop-up button on the CSS like Crusade does.

 

[Ivander]

Not to mention, nobody was asking for Squirtle or Ivysaur in the first place. In fact, getting them as part of PT, has basically removed any chance of getting the far more popular Blastoise and Venusaur.

Bulbasaur is actually greatly more popular than Venusaur. Bulbasaur is almost always in the Top 10 while Venusaur is often much lower compared to Charizard and Blastoise. Meanwhile, Squirtle isn't that far off from Blastoise in popular, a couple times actually getting over Blastoise in popularity like the Pokemon of the Year Top 30 poll.

Sure we like to pay attention to the fully evolved Starter Pokemon that are popular like Greninja, Decidueye, Cinderace and whatnot, but people forget that the Starter Pokemon themselves are almost just as popular, if not sometimes surpass their fully evolved forms in popularity. Rowlet ties with Decidueye, Mudkip ties with Sceptile and Blaziken while Swampert is slightly less popular than all 3 of them, Oshawott is far more popular than the other 2 Starters and is far more popular compared the other Starter Evos aside from Serperior who is around Oshawott's popularity, Piplup is more popular than Torterra and Empoleon and is slightly more popular than Infernape.

Basically, just because they may not have been asked for compared to Charizard, does not mean that they weren't welcome when they happened. We've practically placed the Starter Final Evos on a pedestal for Smash speculation not so much for their popularity, but because they have been expected to happen. That doesn't mean that the Starter Pokemon themselves aren't popular, let alone other Pokemon. Why else have people been asking for a Pokemon like Ogrepon, Tinkaton, Gholdengo or Mimikyu?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Bulbasaur is actually greatly more popular than Venusaur.

Bulbasaur is. IVYSAUR is not. No middle evolution is ever the most popular.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Bulbasaur is actually greatly more popular than Venusaur. Bulbasaur is almost always in the Top 10 while Venusaur is often much lower compared to Charizard and Blastoise.

Have you ever noticed that Sakurai's said he's considered having Blastoise playable rather than Squirtle, but not Venusaur rather than Ivysaur? I kind of wonder if he always thought Venusaur was too bulky to work as a fighter.

 

[Laniv]

Bulbasaur is. IVYSAUR is not. No middle evolution is ever the most popular.

Braixen?? Grovyle???

 

[Ivander]

Bulbasaur is. IVYSAUR is not. No middle evolution is ever the most popular.

Pikachu?

That aside, Grovyle has beaten Treeko a couple times and Braixen is pretty close to both Fennekin and Delphox.

 

[Noipoi]

Bulbasaur is. IVYSAUR is not. No middle evolution is ever the most popular.

Braixen is arguably the most liked of the Fennekin line.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Braixen is arguably the most liked of the Fennekin line.

For...reasons.

Like Delphox's "robe" looking too much like a traffic cone, of course. And clearly no other...reasons.

 

[ninjahmos]

I think it was kind of a missed opportunity for Young Link to not at least use the Fierce Diety Mask and transform. That probably could've been his Final Smash.

He probably won't be in the next game anyway.

 

[Laniv]

For...reasons.

Like Delphox's "robe" looking too much like a traffic cone, of course. And clearly no other...reasons.

Those reasons being... It was in Pokkén.

And I maintain that Delphox has a great design, but was screwed over by stiff posing

 

[SPEN18]

The problem with trying to do the transform and solo versions at once is that it's a balancing nightmare. You couldn't just implement the same moveset plus or minus one special move, as the result would very likely be lopsided for one version or the other, given that one has access to a whole host of other strengths and options from the other counterpart(s) of the transformation.
Implementing a character as a component of a transformation concept definitionally requires compromises on their strengths and weaknesses. I struggle with the notion of relegating Charizard specifically, very easily argued as the second most iconic Pokémon out there next to Pikachu, to such compromises. I feel like he has some untapped potential and more room to pull out that flashiness and flair you'd expect from his Fire/Flying typing. If he does end up solo, I'd hope they'd push him further than in Smash 4; not sure when exactly it was determined that Squirtle/Ivysaur couldn't make it, but I wonder if any initial plans to retain the Trainer concept ended up influencing how much change Zard could undergo even after becoming solo...

 

[fogbadge]

And I maintain that Delphox has a great design, but was screwed over by stiff posing

you sure it's not the ear hair?

 

[chinkuru]

Outside of Mewtwo/Giygas and maybe Piranha Plant/Deku Baba, who could even work as a cross series Echo? I mean, we could probably do Ice Climbers/Hammer Bros, but that's a massive stretch.

Hold on...

Mildly relevant

Maybe Snow Bros over Ice Climbers

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I actually never minded swapping moves being special moves. After all, turning into an entirely different character is a pretty special thing to do.

 

[CannonStreak]

About Giygas, I would have to say that I would love for him to be included into Smash Bros., in his EarthBound Beginnings/Mother 1 incarnation, with his MOther 2/EarthBound form being a Final Smash. If not, he could always be part of a stage in his latter form, for after all; I read somewhere that in terms of the background of the final fight with him in EarthBound/Mother 2, he IS the background.

 

[Kirbeh]

The problem with trying to do the transform and solo versions at once is that it's a balancing nightmare. You couldn't just implement the same moveset plus or minus one special move, as the result would very likely be lopsided for one version or the other, given that one has access to a whole host of other strengths and options from the other counterpart(s) of the transformation.
Implementing a character as a component of a transformation concept definitionally requires compromises on their strengths and weaknesses. I struggle with the notion of relegating Charizard specifically, very easily argued as the second most iconic Pokémon out there next to Pikachu, to such compromises. I feel like he has some untapped potential and more room to pull out that flashiness and flair you'd expect from his Fire/Flying typing. If he does end up solo, I'd hope they'd push him further than in Smash 4; not sure when exactly it was determined that Squirtle/Ivysaur couldn't make it, but I wonder if any initial plans to retain the Trainer concept ended up influencing how much change Zard could undergo even after becoming solo...

I can kind of see what you're getting at, but I don't think that's necessarily true either. If we got solo Zard back with Rock Smash alongside PT, I don't think it'd be some impossible challenge to balance out. Would each solo mon likely be arguably worse than the full team for losing the option to switch out? Maybe?

I personally do think that they'd probably be viewed that way and fair enough, being able to become another character entirely is a big deal. That said, we've also already had solo Zard before. Splitting them all off as more standard light/fast, slow/heavy and middle ground characters isn't that tall an order so much as it is a use of time/resources you might feel best placed elsewhere. (Though if anything I feel like they might even be treated similarly to echoes and balanced against their originals specifically.)

Time allowing, I would actually like for solo versions of each, if only to give players more options. Pt remains as a unit and people dedicated to one Pokémon specifically can finally do so without being forced to switch a few times mid-match.

In fact, getting them as part of PT, has basically removed any chance of getting the far more popular Blastoise and Venusaur.

To be fair, I think the fact that there are dozens upon dozens of possible Pokémon and a focus on the most recent generation, are the bigger obstacles here.
If we can have both or 3 Links, etc. I don't think it's a matter of avoiding different versions of a same/similar character. Granted the others are clone characters but if there much fewer Pokémon and fewer actually viable choices, a Pokémon as iconic and popular as would be a no brainer. Same goes for a few others like

If Sakurai, Nintendo, TPC or some combination really wanted to push Blastoise for whatever reason I doubt they'd go "dang, but Squirtle tho."

The priorities are just in a different place.

Have you ever noticed that Sakurai's said he's considered having Blastoise playable rather than Squirtle, but not Venusaur rather than Ivysaur? I kind of wonder if he always thought Venusaur was too bulky to work as a fighter.

I favor the Bulbasaur line, but it is true that Venusuar ranks lower than both Zard and Blastoise in terms of popularity. The fact that it's a big, bulky, short-limbed quadruped probably doesn't help either. I don't think it's impossible, but it is harder to envision Venusaur not being really slow and having limited options animation wise compared to it's smaller, nimbler counterparts.

Braixen?? Grovyle???

Obviously, I can't say with complete certainty, but I do think Sceptile is still generally more popular on the whole, it's just that Grovyle has a vocal fanbase from within the Mystery Dungeon community. Not that I'm complaining though, I'd prefer Grovyle myself. Braixen too.

Maybe Snow Bros over Ice Climbers

Bring back the Ike Climbers

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The answer is simple. GameFreak just needs to make a new Charizard that can function as the solozard.

Like a Paradox or a regional variant.

 

[HyperSomari64]

The answer is simple. GameFreak just needs to make a new Charizard that can function as the solozard.

Like a Paradox or a regional variant.

Mega Charizard Z-A

Oh, and also Mega Mewtwo Z-A

 

[Ivander]

The answer is simple. GameFreak just needs to make a new Charizard that can function as the solozard.

Like a Paradox or a regional variant.

It's kinda hilarious how the Paradox Pokemon people are asking for is a variant of a Pokemon already solo in Smash Bros.

Although thinking about it, I'm legit curious on if Decidueye was chosen over Incineroar, would we have gotten Hisuian Decidueye as an alternate costume in a future game?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It's kinda hilarious how the Paradox Pokemon people are asking for is a variant of a Pokemon already solo in Smash Bros.

Although thinking about it, I'm legit curious on if Decidueye was chosen over Incineroar, would we have gotten Hisuian Decidueye as an alternate costume in a future game?

Probably an Echo because of the different type and certain moves having to be replaced.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's kinda hilarious how the Paradox Pokemon people are asking for is a variant of a Pokemon already solo in Smash Bros.

Although thinking about it, I'm legit curious on if Decidueye was chosen over Incineroar, would we have gotten Hisuian Decidueye as an alternate costume in a future game?

H-Decidueye is more of a kicker than an archer, it wouldn't exactly fit unless the moveset Sakurai give its Alolan form (funny how I'm referring to the original form of a Pokemon as an Alolan form amirite) a lot of kicks.

 

[AtomicStewAgain]

ol i really want from another smash game is another astory mode like subspace emissary, but it hurts to know sakurai will probably never let that happen.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

It's kinda hilarious how the Paradox Pokemon people are asking for is a variant of a Pokemon already solo in Smash Bros.

Although thinking about it, I'm legit curious on if Decidueye was chosen over Incineroar, would we have gotten Hisuian Decidueye as an alternate costume in a future game?

I'd love for Scream Tail to be an alt for Puff, but I genuinely don't think they'll do it because of the size difference, even if Scream Tail is literally a prehistoric Jigglypuff lol

Jigglypuff is like 1'08"/0.5m, while Scream Tail is 3'11"/1.2m, so more than twice the height lol

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'd love for Scream Tail to be an alt for Puff, but I genuinely don't think they'll do it because of the size difference, even if Scream Tail is literally a prehistoric Jigglypuff lol

Jigglypuff is like 1'08"/0.5m, while Scream Tail is 3'11"/1.2m, so more than twice the height lol

To be fair, when has Smash ever been consistent with Pokemon sizes?

 

[AtomicStewAgain]

I'd love for Scream Tail to be an alt for Puff, but I genuinely don't think they'll do it because of the size difference, even if Scream Tail is literally a prehistoric Jigglypuff lol

Jigglypuff is like 1'08"/0.5m, while Scream Tail is 3'11"/1.2m, so more than twice the height lol

lol, i'd love to see a screamtail, the prehistoric design of puff is peak

 

[smashkirby]

I like Boom-Boom but if we got him, I'd want Pom-Pom to be included too. They're a package deal to me at this point.

And more importantly, you'd have to fudge their proportions a lot more than what they did for the Koopalings. Boom's huge arms are a defining feature, just imagining him with small hands feels weird imo.

As for Nabbit, I chose him based on the fact that he's among the more prominent secondary/mook characters. His major appearances are in the 2D Mario games, same as the Koopalings, so there's some association there already. Doesn't hurt that he's actually playable in some games so people will be familiar with him in that way too.

Plus, the idea of Nabbit nabbing a clown car to participate in Smash feels kind of in character in a way? Either that or he's our Bowser Jr. stand in since he's already got the mask/bandana.

It's funny, I've had a similar thought regarding Boom-Boom's arms. I can't deny that it'd be hilarious to see those "Anchor Arms" driving a Clown Car. With that said, I totally see what you mean regarding Pom-Pom and how they're looking more and more like a package deal these days. Almost wonder how Smash would handle THEM, actually...

In regards to Nabbit? Yeah, I figured that's why you suggested him. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel like there's sort of an "appeal" to him in particular driving a Clown Car into battle. Like, did he steal one of the Koopa Troop's mass-produced production line ones? We may never know...

This is actually something I've wanted for a long while, though not quite exactly in the same way. Copy/pasting from my costume thread:

Wow, neat idea! In addition to Cynthia being paired off with Garchomp/Lucario, it's VERY interesting that you brought up your concept of Pokémon and their Trainer, AND that you had Chase and Elaine as potential trainers to be included with Pikachu, as it reminds me of something I had in mind for them.

Specifically, my idea was that "Partner Pikachu" and "Partner Eevee" would be playable in Smash, with the "Let's Go" trainer duo accompanying them as their personal Trainers, essentially using your idea that you detailed above.

I have to echo ScrubReborn here. If went this long without a stage, just to be hit with a reskin of 75m, I'd rather not get a stage at all.

I'd be totally down for retaining the retro aesthetic like 75m and Mario Bros., but if they're going to give us a Gyromite stage I want the aesthetic and unique stage gimmicks on an actually functional layout. A Smash original layout that incorporates all the necessary elements would be much more preferable than a literal copy of an in-game level (though I'm sure there are viable choices there as with DK, they seriously could have picked any other stage.).

Just so you and ScrubReborn know, I don't need R.O.B.'s stage to be a reskin of 75m or anything like that. It's just that my vague recollection of Gyromite gameplay depicted Professor Hector in an area that looked vaguely similar to 75m's layout.

Heaven help me, if there'd be a way to give R.O.B. a home stage without it being a reskin of one of the worst Smash Bros. stages? I'd take that in a heartbeat.

With all of that said? I think I just found the Gyromite level that vaguely reminded me of 75m. I think it was level 11 or 12 of the aforementioned game...

Ngl, all of this Gyromite talk is reminding me about how I've entertained the idea of Professor Hector (with Professor Vector [Hector's assistant] as an Alph-styled alt. skin) joining Smash Bros., controlling a R.O.B.-like mech in battle.

I know pretty much nothing about these game's but if you're telling we can get a Smash version of Blodia, I'm sold.

EDIT: After looking up a longplay at 2x speed, I desperately need a Battle Clash/Metal Combat stage.

This would most definitely be a Jin situation though, given that these are giant mechs. You can't really shrink one down and still have Michael piloting it. I'm all in favor though, the games look really cool and it's not like they can't cook up another (partial) Smash original moveset to make it work. Either that or they shrink the mech down into a suit to make a much bulkier/tanky Samus style character.

Either way, the one thing I would want is an updated design for Mike. The style was common for character design back then, but I can already see/hear the "Terry with a haircut" comments. I do like classic the look and would still want it in game as an alt, but I'd also like some older characters get the Brawl Pit treatment.

Yeah, the S.T. Falcon would pretty much be Smash's answer to the Blodia! With that said, I'd be cool with however Smash implements the character. I can't deny that it'd be fun to play as the Falcon itself, firing its super-sized Super Scope at opponents.

On the other side of it all... how insane would it be for Smash to suddenly turn Michael into a pyromancer like Jin Saotome himself?? As for Michael's design, I... actually kind of want them to keep his OG design, just translated into 3D. Like, I'd LOVE to see how folks react to his overtly 90's future-punk design in the modern day.

Have to disagree on this one. UC is a guy that punches, and the game was inspired by the G&W version of PO but I feel like that's pretty forced.

Mac is a professional boxer, the UC is a guy getting into street fights. I wouldn't expect UC to have the same fighting style as a pro boxer nor do I think that Mac's specials are good fits.

If they did UC, you'd pretty much have to give him a completely original moveset. How you go about that, I'm unsure of. It's not really a character I ever took into consideration, but if it's a wholly original moveset (except for maybe jab, but that's not much of a difference,) then I think there's plenty you could do, especially if you stretch the limits on creative liberty.

Believe it or not, I've actually cooked up a moveset for Urban Champ a couple of years ago that I'd like to think takes advantage of the game's elements (and DOESN'T make him a cross-series Echo of Mac).

Spoiler

In terms of being different from Little Mac, the Urban Champ would have Mac's strength, but even stronger, with a few drawbacks, such as:

1. NO super armor on ANY attacks, but as a result, due to fighting on the streets, his attacks are more aggressive than Little Mac, because he doesn't know how to hold back. The other problem is due to him having trouble controlling himself sometimes he may do 1-2% damage to himself. It'd be pretty uncommon for him to do this, though.

2. He would use weapons, such as crowbars, manholes, flower pots, and....well, whatever else you'd find/use in a street fight. I'd say switchblade, but I think that's taking it a little TOO far.

3. His special moves would all be different from Mac, with the exception of Mac's Rising Star up special and Slip Counter down special. As I've said before, the Urban Champ would be more aggressive than Mac, and due to this, his up special, would rise to a more crazy height, due to his hot-blooded nature and his Slip Counter would involve him grabbing his opponent after they've struck him during the Counter animation, resulting in him grabbing them and punching them back hard, and I mean HARD.

4. His standard special would not be the Straight Lunge, but the "Burst Barrage". With this, the Urban Champ would charge up, and where Mac's fist glowed red, the Urban Champ's entire body would turn red, with him getting more and more of a furious expression on his face. When the attack is fully charged, he will GO OFF, starting with a powerful punch, and kick to the ribs, ANOTHER kick to the ribs, a punch to the gut, a headbutt, and ending it with what could essentially be considered Mac's side smash attack. His side special would involve him tossing a random item from Urban Champ, like a flower pot, or even a manhole, among other things.

5. I imagine his redesign to be along the lines of having THREE outfits. One being his jean jacket with torn sleeves, while wearing a red-and-white striped shirt underneath, with jeans pants on. His other outfit would consist of wearing a baby blue t-shirt with a red long sleeve shirt at the bottom while wearing blue sweatpants. The last one would be...well...a simple white t-shirt, as a homage to Cody Travers of Final Fight/Street Fighter fame, and Axel Stone of Streets of Rage. Also, I guess if they want to be realistic, his default outfit would involve him having golden-blonde hair, as seen above. His alts. would involve blue hair, purple hair, and green hair. I'll think of the others later.

6. His FS would either be him and an army of Urban Fighters beating down on opponents, or the Urban Champ would basically use a grounded version of the Mii Brawler's FS.

If not a character though, I think he'd make for a good costume. I definitely do want an Urban Champion stage though.

Honestly a bit surprised a Mii Fighter costume of this guy hasn't happened yet, but I DO wonder just what design they'd go with. The official blond-haired artwork, or something more based on the NES sprite?

And I'd LOVE an Urban Champ stage, ESPECIALLY after Super Smash Flash 2 gave us an amazing proof-of-concept of how such a stage could work. Bonus points if Smash Bros. had some option to switch between the OG NES setting and a modernized, hyper-realistic setting.

I actually quite like the moveset you made for him. There are some things I'd do differently (but that's a given, everyone has different ideas for x or y thing.) overall though, I'd say it's solid.

As for Jill, that honestly feels like a completely out of left field sort of thing. I'd personally say no to Lark suddenly pulling out a rocket launcher, though I do have ask if those are even in PilotWings? Never played the series, only seen snippets of gameplay.

As for getting "physical" with their moves, it's kind of a necessity. If you're dropping a character into a fighting game, they've got to have attacks of some kind. Especially when it comes to characters with source material that doesn't give them as much to pull from, I really don't see any issue with giving some punches/kicks to characters like Lark or whoever.

A little cartoon guy throwing some punches like Mario doesn't seem out of place or out of character when the setting is Smash. It's about incorporating them when/as needed. After all, he'd still have all the other actual PilotWings related stuff to fully flesh out his kit right?

Hey, thanks!

Regarding the Jill and rocket launcher thing, this would be one of those cases where I'd be taking some SERIOUS liberties, as the move would be referencing the Gyrocopter vehicle from Pilotwings 64 and its ability to... fire missiles.

With that said, I guess you have a point there. In fact, the more I think about it? The more I think that Jill's "flaming tackle" attack wouldn't look THAT out of place on Lark (or any other Pilotwings character). I mean, you ARE right about how I'd still incorporate as much Pilotwings content into Lark's moveset, such as the Rocketbelt, a parachute, and the various bird suits the series has given us over the years.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

To be fair, when has Smash ever been consistent with Pokemon sizes?

Funny enough I think when measuring character heights, someone found Greninja, Incineroar, and Mewtwo iirc were accurate to the Pokedex while everyone else has been sized up to various degrees, even Charizard.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

To be fair, when has Smash ever been consistent with Pokemon sizes?

I mean that's fair, but I think the slight height difference of Marth and Lucina was enough for Sakurai to say "Lucina can't be an alt, so we'll make her a clone" basically, so Scream Tail being twice as big as Puff means he'd likely make it an Echo if anything, and that'd be weird for Scream Tail I think, especially when it can't learn Rollout normally while Jigglypuff still can via breeding through Marill and Azumarill. Of course this didn't stop Chrom from using Ike's Up B, so it could maybe work with a new Neutral B, but do you really wanna go through all that for an Echo of Jigglypuff, who typically ends up near the end of the list priority-wise anyway is the main thing I think lol

Like imagine being near the end of development for a Smash game and you've just finished Jigglypuff. Everything works a-okay, and then your boss sits you down.

"You've finished Jigglypuff?"
"Yes sir."
"Good. Now make a clone of Jigglypuff."

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I mean that's fair, but I think the slight height difference of Marth and Lucina was enough for Sakurai to say "Lucina can't be an alt, so we'll make her a clone" basically, so Scream Tail being twice as big as Puff means he'd likely make it an Echo if anything, and that'd be weird for Scream Tail I think, especially when it can't learn Rollout normally while Jigglypuff still can via breeding through Marill and Azumarill.

What makes this funny is that Puff's size in Smash is very likely larger than Scream Tail. So Scream Tail would be ****ing gigantic.

With that said, while size is not the same, the body proportions are still identical so it could still happen. It won't but it's not a zero percent chance.

Of course this didn't stop Chrom from using Ike's Up B

Fun fact, Chrom's Up B is taken straight from an Awakening cutscene.

so it could maybe work with a new Neutral B, but do you really wanna go through all that for an Echo of Jigglypuff, who typically ends up near the end of the list priority-wise anyway is the main thing I think lol

It probably never would yeah. But it would be funny to have two Puffs.

 

[Ivander]

What makes this funny is that Puff's size in Smash is very likely larger than Scream Tail. So Scream Tail would be ****ing gigantic.

It probably never would yeah. But it would be funny to have two Puffs.

Little Puff and Big Puff.

Don't talk to me or my daughter ever again.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Fun fact, Chrom's Up B is taken straight from an Awakening cutscene.

Of course, but I still believe they used the animation and code from Aether to make Soaring Slash. The spinning part doesn't look different enough to warrant making an all-new animation from scratch, just what he does before jumping.

 

[SPEN18]

I can kind of see what you're getting at, but I don't think that's necessarily true either. If we got solo Zard back with Rock Smash alongside PT, I don't think it'd be some impossible challenge to balance out. Would each solo mon likely be arguably worse than the full team for losing the option to switch out? Maybe?

I personally do think that they'd probably be viewed that way and fair enough, being able to become another character entirely is a big deal. That said, we've also already had solo Zard before. Splitting them all off as more standard light/fast, slow/heavy and middle ground characters isn't that tall an order so much as it is a use of time/resources you might feel best placed elsewhere. (Though if anything I feel like they might even be treated similarly to echoes and balanced against their originals specifically.)

Time allowing, I would actually like for solo versions of each, if only to give players more options. Pt remains as a unit and people dedicated to one Pokémon specifically can finally do so without being forced to switch a few times mid-match.

But, true or not in the case of Charizard, if using the same moveset solo is just about as effective as using it as part of a team, then IMO that's a poorly designed and/or balanced transformation character. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of the transformation mechanic as exclusive to those fighters if it's not even necessary in order to use the character to its fullest, if there's no tangible upside to actually taking advantage of the flexibility and the interdependence of the team's strengths and weaknesses.

At a certain point, we may as well just have a tag-team game mode where each player chooses a team of say 3 characters and can swap between them at any point in the match via some input combination.
"When everyone's a transformation character, no one will be..."

 

[Laniv]

you sure it's not the ear hair?

Positive, cause I know what it looks like without it.

Good Lord.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think as long as they’re still easy enough to pick up and play, most casuals would still use them if they liked the character or enjoyed their moveset. For example, I never really learned Kazuya’s combos in Smash but he’s still a ton of fun to play at a base level. Same goes for the transformation characters. I main the random button so I never really learn all the ins and outs of any particular character but I can play them well enough to get by and have fun.

I was speaking more to competitive play. Pokémon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra aren't actually super technical anyway, they just require learning two characters, which takes more work than learning 1.

But, true or not in the case of Charizard, if using the same moveset solo is just about as effective as using it as part of a team, then IMO that's a poorly designed and/or balanced transformation character. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of the transformation mechanic as exclusive to those fighters if it's not even necessary in order to use the character to its fullest, if there's no tangible upside to actually taking advantage of the flexibility and the interdependence of the team's strengths and weaknesses.

At a certain point, we may as well just have a tag-team game mode where each player chooses a team of say 3 characters and can swap between them at any point in the match via some input combination.
"When everyone's a transformation character, no one will be..."

I think it would end up shaking out alright, at least for Charizard. Transformation characters are designed for you to be able to stick to just one of the options for the fight, at least in casual levels anyway. Looking at its changelist in SSBU (it's hard to tell what influenced the changes for SSB4 because a lot of them were getting rid of mechanics like stamina and gliding), Charizard seems to have been made slightly more min-maxed from its previous incarnation so it would slot into the matchup concept a bit better.

As it stands currently, Charizard seems to be a character that gives Pokémon Trainer players some interesting things to do in certain scenarios and helps with recovery, but is otherwise considered to be more of a liability than an asset most of the time. An unchanged Solozard would not be a good character, and I doubt it would ever be better than Pokémon Trainer because being attached to Squirtle and Ivysaur is more valuable than any reasonable buff they'd give it. Casually though, it'd probably work fine, and that's even assuming they'd just give it Rock Smash and call it a day.

I think the most reasonable thing to do for Solozard though would be to impliment Mega Charizard X as an Echo Fighter, contextualizing the buffs made to it that make its kit more well rounded. Still probably wouldn't be as good as Pokémon Trainer, and probably still bad because heavy, but functional if you wanted to take it into competitive play. This couldn't be done for Squirtle or Ivysaur, but I think that's OK. Charizard is the only one who has been solo before, so having that option as a callback would be welcome even if the other two didn't follow.

 

[cashregister9]

Positive, cause I know what it looks like without it.

View attachment 395297

Good Lord.

my god

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Positive, cause I know what it looks like without it.

View attachment 395297

Good Lord.

I will never insult Delphox's design again.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I was speaking more to competitive play. Pokémon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra aren't actually super technical anyway, they just require learning two characters, which takes more work than learning 1.


I think it would end up shaking out alright, at least for Charizard. Transformation characters are designed for you to be able to stick to just one of the options for the fight, at least in casual levels anyway. Looking at its changelist in SSBU (it's hard to tell what influenced the changes for SSB4 because a lot of them were getting rid of mechanics like stamina and gliding), Charizard seems to have been made slightly more min-maxed from its previous incarnation so it would slot into the matchup concept a bit better.

As it stands currently, Charizard seems to be a character that gives Pokémon Trainer players some interesting things to do in certain scenarios and helps with recovery, but is otherwise considered to be more of a liability than an asset most of the time. An unchanged Solozard would not be a good character, and I doubt it would ever be better than Pokémon Trainer because being attached to Squirtle and Ivysaur is more valuable than any reasonable buff they'd give it. Casually though, it'd probably work fine, and that's even assuming they'd just give it Rock Smash and call it a day.

I think the most reasonable thing to do for Solozard though would be to impliment Mega Charizard X as an Echo Fighter, contextualizing the buffs made to it that make its kit more well rounded. Still probably wouldn't be as good as Pokémon Trainer, and probably still bad because heavy, but functional if you wanted to take it into competitive play. This couldn't be done for Squirtle or Ivysaur, but I think that's OK. Charizard is the only one who has been solo before, so having that option as a callback would be welcome even if the other two didn't follow.

I know this is just like a hypothetical, but I really hate the idea of Solozard being added as an Echo in any form just for a solo playable Charizard like in Smash 4 lmao

Like if we have to have an extra Echo I'd really rather it be a character that's not already in the game instead of actually using resources to ask the player if they'd like to play as Charizard 1 or Charizard 2 lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Positive, cause I know what it looks like without it.

It's not terrible, but it is definitely missing something. I have no idea what I'd add to it to fix it, but giant wads of ear fuzz is not it.

...

Witch hat. That seems right.