Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hypercat-Z]

I recently started playing Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door and oh my goodness this game's amazing. The writing is great, and they finally made the paper visuals compelling to me. Like, it's not just a world made out of cardboard and construction paper, it's a world that uses the paper aesthetic to depict a real world.

Or maybe that was always how it was and I just didn't care for the world the other two games were presenting...

Regardless, I love the extra layering that went into each character's models. It adds so much depth in a really charming way.

Yet they added thickness to the 2D paper models on the Switch edition. Which made me think: What if in the next Smash even Mr. Game & Watch becomes thick and no more a 2D floating texature.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I also agree with Zero Suit Samus. We... Don't really need multiple iterations of the same character, unless they're a fairly quick clone. ZSS as an alternate form of Samus is a fun gimmick, but that was dropped in Brawl so now she's just kinda there. As far as characters go she's pretty low priority.

But yeah I just can’t really justify ZSS outdoing popular characters who have their own distinct identity, even on the front of her unique gameplay, because letting fans play as their favorite characters is still an important element of the series and you can already play as Samus. I feel like this has to be something they weigh out during the process.

I gotta disagree with this. If she not only has a unique gameplay but also popular in the Smash fanbase, then there's really no reason to cut her. I still remember how fans were disappointed on the live stream when Sakurai joked that ZSS wasn't coming back for Smash 4. Besides, Metroid only has 4 reps and one of them is an echo. I'd rather not see one of the most unique characters get cut and one of the series with less reps get even less then before.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yet they added thickness to the 2D paper models on the Switch edition. Which made me think: What if in the next Smash even Mr. Game & Watch becomes thick and no more a 2D floating texature.

That would kind of destroy the point of Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

That would kind of destroy the point of Mr. Game & Watch.

Uhmmm... That's a good point.

Back to Metroid...
We all agree Zero Suit Samus should return a transformation of Samus, right?
I think the same about Zelda and Sheik. And I think we should have Toon Zelda and Tetra with the same gimmick.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Uhmmm... That's a good point.

Back to Metroid...
We all agree Zero Suit Samus should return a transformation of Samus, right?
I think the same about Zelda and Sheik. And I think we should have Toon Zelda and Tetra with the same gimmick.

Balanace-wise, I'm still convinced that this would be bad decision.

Just let the characters remain separate. And if Tetra and Toon Zelda joined, I'd want them to be separate characters as well.

 

[Will]

We all agree Zero Suit Samus should return a transformation of Samus, right?

Why would you do that, though?

 

[DarthEnderX]

We all agree Zero Suit Samus should return a transformation of Samus, right?

We do not.

Transformations are bull****.

 

[NintenRob]

I see value in Zero Suit. She gives a face and personality to one of the most iconic female characters in gaming. She also shows off a more nimble and athletic side to Samus while being more of a tank with the power suit moveset

That said. It doesn't take long for her to end up on the chopping block as you shrink the roster, especially amongst the unique characters. I just hope that if she gets cut, we get an unmasked option for regular Samus and a voice

 

[Idon]

Uhmmm... That's a good point.

Back to Metroid...
We all agree Zero Suit Samus should return a transformation of Samus, right?
I think the same about Zelda and Sheik. And I think we should have Toon Zelda and Tetra with the same gimmick.

Definitely not. ZSS and Sheik do not complement and be complemented by their main counterparts in the same way Pyra and Mythra do.

Moreover, they are characters with entirely divorced gameplay, aesthetic, and character appeal. Mashing them together would not please either fanbase.

Regardless, it wouldn't even make sense to do that when neither the Zero Suit nor Sheik have been a relevant part of the character in decades. At this point, they're just entirely smash original characters

 

[Will]

I just hope that if she gets cut, we get an unmasked option for regular Samus and a voice

What kind of voice? AFAIR In Dread, she either speaks Chozo or screams bloody murder.

 

[Kirbeh]

Guess I can add ZSS to the list of characters I play that everyone wants cut.



There's honestly a lot I would like to see changed about ZSS but I honestly don't think she's superfluous or lacks "value."

Granted I do understand why she (and the others) would likely be first on the chopping block.

As for cuts in general, while it would suck to lose a lot of characters, there is a part of me that welcomes the feared "doom posting, 30 character roster." Gotta rip off the band aid eventually.

What kind of voice? AFAIR In Dread, she either speaks Chozo or screams bloody murder.

If they ever did expand on the character voices/language options, I think it'd be pretty neat if one of the options they gave Samus was to speak in Chozo.

Still hoping for at least an EN/JP toggle that lets you adjust characters individually.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I am once again going to state that Kazuya would be more accurate to Tekken if he didn't have half of his BS. Like giving him super armor on everything.

I don't know much about Tekken, but when Sakurai explained his moveset I thought he'd have a swiss army knife playstyle of sorts, with more options than any other character kept in check by his subpar mobility.
Then he came out, and... Yeah. Half of his gigantic moveset is pointless and the other half is horrendously busted, and he devolves into mostly always doing the same things.

He's fun in a casual setting, but like most FP2 characters he feels like he could use some revision.

 

[Idon]

Half of his gigantic moveset is pointless and the other half is horrendously busted, and he devolves into mostly always doing the same things.

To be fair, that part is accurate. Just, in a smash way rather than in a Tekken way.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Zero Suit Samus is the kind of addition that weirds me out. A lot of stuff is made up, which makes it feel like you're not actually playing as that character, but as an original creation. So she's not necessarily a good way to represent Metroid.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

To be fair, that part is accurate. Just, in a smash way rather than in a Tekken way.

Ultimate has been better about this though, in my opinion. Some moves are still more situational but most characters can and need to make use of most their kit.

If I think back to Smash 4...
Sheik was needle the character. Captain Falcon would do nothing but run and grab. Samus entirely revolved around dash attack.
They're all way more well-rounded now.

...Smash 4 was kinda jank thinking back about it now.

 

[Arcanir]

Yeah, ZSS is one of the more auxiliary characters in the scheme of things. As Swamp said, she was added because Sakurai didn't really have a good feel for another Metroid character, and now that we have two more prominent characters in Ridley and Dark Samus she doesn't compare well to them as they bring more to the table as Samus' main archnemesis and the main antagonist of the Prime subseries respectively. She does have a fun moveset and has garnered a fanbase over the years which are good positives to have (and ones that can help keep her afloat), but even with those perks in mind she does falter compared to her peers and that does mean that if cuts get to a certain point, she can be the one that draws the short straw.

 

[dream1ng]

I think Samus and Ridley are safe, I think ZSS and Dark Samus aren't safe.

I know Ridley is newer than ZSS and usually being longstanding is a benefit for priority, but between Ridley's role in the series and the journey to get him included, I think he'll be prioritized pretty highly to keep. Meanwhile ZSS, as was said, is somewhat superfluous. She's another version of an existing character, so it's not like her absence renders Samus unrepresented. And things change once you're a veteran, but the reason she was added in the first place is now otherwise satisfied, which won't necessarily see her gone, but will probably decrease her priority.

And Dark Samus is a recent clone. I know people argue that because clones are easier to add there's less sense to remove them, but Smash doesn't really operate that way; they treat clones as a more expendable category - likened to the "free dessert". Not crucial but rather supplemental to the other content.

I don't think both will be cut, but I could definitely see losing one.

 

[RodNutTakin]

That means cuts might be more painful, it doesn't mean they won't happen. Cuts are a result of finite time and resources, not because some character was voted off the island. Less popular characters might be likelier to be cut, but the cut transpires not because they weren't popular, it's because unless the game iterates off its current build indefinitely (which also isn't tenable), it's simply not possible to bring everyone back. Cuts occur for logistical reasons.

People don't speculate major cuts to be a **** - if you have fairly extensive cuts it's likely the person suggesting it knows they'll lose some of their own characters - it's looking at a roster of nearing 100 and seeing that that kind of thing can't expand forever, and can't reach close to its current count once it starts again. So whenever the axe comes down (past licensing issues), it will take out quite a number of fighters.

I probably could've made this better understood, I wasn't trying to say there shouldn't be cuts at all, my post was more addressed towards the people online that I have seen actively advocate or wish for the next Smash game getting rid of half or more of Ultimate's lineup (I have seen a concerning enough amount of times people who say the next game should launch with only 30 fighters--less than Brawl's count, which will likely be 18-20 years old when the next Smash is out), and pointing to traditional fighting games, Street Fighter in particular, as the reasoning as to why "the slate MUST be wiped clean".

This rhetoric is something I have seen more on some other sites and not on here, so this isn't really me trying to accuse anyone in particular here. But I will say that in regards to those other sites' users, it does feel like not enough people understand how carefully cuts have to be handled (and have been handled) with this series compared to your Street Fighters, Tekkens and Mortal Kombats. It is as you said, cuts only happen in Smash because of non-negotiable circumstances instead of "[character] sucks/doesn't fit, get 'em outta here". And even then, I have the gut feeling that things are being set in place to cushion future blows, primarily regarding the founding of Studio S. My general point is that I feel people who want Smash to do some kind of minimalist roster refresh miss the point of the types of character Smash was chosen to have since day one.

Also RE: Zero Suit Samus, I'd personally sacrifice ZSS in favor of giving normal Samus a significant upgrade to reflect Dread. Dark Samus could keep the legacy playstyle.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Zero Suit Samus is safe. She is Samus, and an unique move set. She is playable in Metroid, and if not she's always present by being Samus. Her stay is as good as non negotiable.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Yeah, call me naive but I too feel like this is a pretty straightforward line of thinking.
-Smash is getting a permanent dedicated studio
-Smash is going to get more resources than it's ever had, and probably a more constant support
-There's not going to be a lot of cuts. Unless they reinvent most game mechanics of course.

About Zero Suit Samus, I feel like she's in a weird place where she's very popular among Smash fans, but kinda unpopular often straight up disliked among Metroid fans.
The thing with her, concerns about her characterization and design aside, is that in Smash she just... doesn't really do anything that actually comes from Metroid games. With Ridley and Dark Samus here it's whatever, but back when she was half of the Metroid playable representation it made for a pretty sad state of affairs.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Are you new here? Going to Brawl, people hoped the clones would get cut. Going to 4, people hoped Wolf would get cut. Even going to Smash for Switch there are tons of posts, videos, etc about which characters shouldn't return. And we're seeing that again.



Mariotehplumber being mentioned in 2024.



False equivalence. You're right it's not a zero or a positive. It's a Negative or a Positive. A newcomer offers new moves, mechanics etc. A cut is a loss of those ideas.

The problem isn't my about "MY" enjoyment of a character. Its the denial of any enjoyment for another person. Wanting a fighter to get cut purely because "I" want it so, is inherently selfish.




I'm glad you brought up SFV. You know who else wasn't liked in SFV? Ed. To a point that come SF6, even Capcom was hyping up Akuma before they even showed anything for Ed. Now in the year 2024, Ed is a fairly respected character who has an audience. The same can be said for Luke. Even AKI shows that there was an idea with FANG. I think what I'm getting at is that Ed and especially Luke, show that the problem wasn't even necessarily the character but the environment they were in and now that they're in a better one they've been fleshed out much more in a way that they never could've if they were simply cut.

Moral of the story, if Necalli shows up for SF6, people are gonna realize just how much worse SFV really was.




I got you homie



I wouldn't say most of mine have the need for multiple final smashes but I could see a few ideas. Dixie could implement the animal buddies or reference the instruments from DK64. Andy could bring out Megatanks or some kind of team attack with Max and Sami, Noah could use Lucky 7 or Ouroboros.

Nice ideas. If Dixie specially got the guitar as a final smash I could see it working like that one assist trophy that used a guitar back in brawl.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Re: Cuts

It’s bound to happen if we get a new game. And no one can agree on who are the most likely characters to be cut.

We’re pretty deep into Smash’s lifespan now where we should question what takes priority? Is it seniority? Or is it recency and relevance? Is it popularity and what the fans want? Or is it legacy, representation and what the fans need instead? Or maybe the answers lie in the sales charts.

We don’t know how Nintendo and Sakurai themselves would select who stays and who goes. All we can do is guess.

I do think as time goes on, seniority starts becoming more of a risk as there is more and more to take into account, such as newer first parties being created, and more third parties joining the fray.

Re: ZSS

is just a case of being one of the more expendable characters. I wouldn’t mind seeing her return, but if cuts have to be made, we could get an unmasked Samus as an alt for .

 

[Wunderwaft]

Oh are we cut talking now at last?

On the topic of Metroid, it goes without saying that is staying, and out of all the newcomers that Ultimate introduced is among the couple of chars that are 100% absolutely coming back for the next game. The story of Ridley is a story of a character who was unintentionally teased in Melee, was thought about in Brawl but was considered unfeasible, was considered unfeasible AGAIN in 4, and was finally made a playable character in Ultimate after so much fan pushback. There's no way that after such a decade long journey he's thrown out like that in the next game.

As for ....she's in a weird state, I can easily see her going but at the same time I can also easily see her staying, she's more "smashified" than the rest of the cast since a lot of creativity was taken for her moveset, but I'd argue that in a way it helps her come back, much like how Giga Bowser is a complete Smash OC but still comes back in every Smash game after. Currently I'm leaning more towards her possibly being cut because of her superfluous nature, but honestly it's more of a 50/50.

is the one that I'm most worried about, she's a blatant clone character with nothing to really differentiate her that much besides the electrical property of some of her attacks (which is pretty much nothing) and just like the other echoes she would be deemed low priority to add unless the team finds themselves in a situation where with the limited time left; the only characters that can be realistically added are easy clones. In that regard DSamus will face competition from the many other easy to add clones, though honestly DSamus is just such a cool character and was well received that I can see her edging out over the rest to be picked. The best timeline of course is for DSamus to be added with a fully unique moveset

Just like other posters said though, I can see either one of DSamus or ZSS going but not the both of them at the same time. Metroid is a franchise that I'd say for the most part isn't in big danger of heavy cuts unlike other franchises (cough

cough).

 

[Oracle Link]

She's marketable and does steal the show. She isn't one of Smash's more forgotten characters like Robin or Toon Link. It's mostly the speculators like us who feel she hasn't earned her keep. She's a lot like Sheik except I think Sheik holds much more inherent value then her.

Except Toon Link isnt Forgotten?
Hes literally been in the game prior to BOTW, Has like 8 Games and is playable in Hyrule warriors Legends!
I would also say hes universally the most loved link Probably!
And i once got outside in a toon link costume and kids recognized me as link so i dont think thats an Issue!

Also Sheiks only inherent value is having a fun moveset and being in one game! I mean i stop arguing about sheik being cut! But if Sheik stays in Toon and/or Toy Link should 100% stay!

Especially weird is how many people bring up SS Link as "classic Link" Eventho he probably is one of the more overused and less liked links! (atleast i think so)

TBH: Having an adult link Slot with OOT, TP, SS and BOTW/TOTK and a Small Link Slot with Toy/ Toon at minimum seems ideal! Then throw in Fierce Deity, Fire Arrows and a palette for young link and most Zelda Fans are satisfied!

And arguing that zero suit samus who is playable like 2 times and in some ending screens deserves to be in the game over Toon Link who carries the Lil Link Rep from 10 Games on his back is ludicrous! Other than the moveset atleast i guess!

 

[Gengar84]

On the subject of ZSS, I think she’s a fun character and I’d rather not see anyone cut at all. However, I do agree she’s one of the more expendable characters on the roster if we do have to make cuts. I’d rather see that time and dedication go to a completely new character than an alternate version of one we already have. Objectively, that argument also applies to Sheik. I feel like ZSS and Sheik are pretty much in the same boat in that they both started as transformations and became unique characters when that was dropped.

I have a personal bias towards Sheik so I’d rather see her return than ZSS but realistically, if one is cut, the other probably should be too. Sheik does have two small things going for her over ZSS: first is that she has slightly longer seniority by one game. Second is that she’s technically not the same character since both Link and Zelda are actually different people from game to game. Not sure how much either of those would actually factor in but that’s my view.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Say about ZSS what you want but at least her move set is unique and functional. She isn't a clone like Dark Samus and Ridley honestly feels awkward and "forced in" in many ways. I'm seeing with my own eyes in Ultimate's version of Ridley why he was deemed unworkable in the past. Not that that's a reason to cut Ridley, but at least do him justice.

ZSS remains Samus no matter how you look at it. It's different from the Sheik scenario, she was way more detached from Samus in the first place and Samus as a whole doesn't do the whole reincarnation thing what Zelda does. Which makes Sheik a very specific Zelda that remains with just one role in the far past. ZSS is Samus, a singular woman, without her Power Suit.

I see more value in ZSS staying than Sheik, especially since Metroid has had it's new additions and Zelda is lacking them for ages. Outside of Raven Beak or maybe Sylux there isn't much for Metroid. Zelda has serious options that are overlooked in favor of a cast that's at stalemate since Brawl.

If we cut anyone from Metroid, Dark Samus is the only logical answer.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Except Toon Link isnt Forgotten?
Hes literally been in the game prior to BOTW, Has like 8 Games and is playable in Hyrule warriors Legends!
I would also say hes universally the most loved link Probably!
And i once got outside in a toon link costume and kids recognized me as link so i dont think thats an Issue!

Their point wasn't that that people literally don't remember him, it's that he just doesn't stand out amongst the two other Links so people don't talk about him as much.

As for why, we've got Link, who's a projectile zoner/swordfighter hybrid who got some flashy new setups with his remote bombs, and Young Link, who's an aggressive setup zoner who's generally considered to be a ton of fun to control, and is making a reappearance after being absent for two games. Meanwhile Toon Link is the same floaty projectile zoner who runs away and presses that he was previously, and people didn't really find that playstyle all that compelling even back then. Combine this with the fact that he's one of two characcters who serve the function of "Smol Link" and the other one really made an impression, it's understandable that he's largely ignored.

If we cut anyone from Metroid, Dark Samus is the only logical answer.

I disagree mainly because cutting Dark Samus does nothing. She's an Echo Fighter, so unless we're strictly talking Echos, cutting her wouldn't make room for anyone else, which means that she's not really in the conversation when it comes to roster picks.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

If they rework Toon Link to actually use stuff from Wind Waker / Four Swords I feel like there's room for all three versions of the character.
Big Link and Young Link work really well as a pair, much like Mario/Luigi, Fox/Falco or Ness/Lucas, and Toon Link can be unique.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I hope ZSS stays because she's fun to play.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Most of our characters have good reason to stay, so I don't see why we'd get a massive amount of cuts, unless there's time restraints. And if that's the case, we'd be sure to get a lot of the cuts back as DLC.

 

[ninjahmos]

So about Zero Suit Samus…

I can kinda see her getting cut, because AFAIK about Metroid, she doesn't seem to appear in many of the games. But I can also kinda see her returning for the next game, because I can agree that she does have a pretty fun and unique moveset.

 

[AreJay25]

Man I really wish I enjoyed playing ZSS as much as the rest of y'all.

I've literally only liked her in Smash 4, and that's mainly because she could kill you at like 50% lmao.

 

[Pupp135]

Regarding Metroid fighters, the only one that I could see getting cut is Zero Suit Samus. Samus is guaranteed given that she’s Metroid’s lead and is one of the original eight (I do think that the developers hold value in the original eight specifically). Given his long journey to join SSB, it would probably upset Ridley supporters if he misses the cut next game. Dark Samus is a case where I think most echoes will probably tag along with their parent fighter.

Zero Suit Samus is kind of a weird situation where she was initially added to fill a Metroid fighter quota as Ridley wasn’t considered feasible at the time, and Dark Samus was pretty new at the time of Brawl’s planning. Despite the nature of her inclusion, I think Samus is one of those instances where there is value to having multiple versions of the same character given the Easter Egg at the end of the original Metroid. Also, I think the developers value her as a character given that she also appears in promotional material like Ryu, Corrin, and Min Min’s reveal art. If I had to rate her chances, I’m currently leaning towards her being more likely to return than being cut. Personally, I‘d want her to return as she’s one of my most used fighters.

If we include Sheik in the conversation, I’m currently leaning more favorably towards Zero Suit Samus than Sheik at the moment in spite of Sheik‘s extra appearance in Melee (I hope both return as I use them often). My logic for Sheik being less likely deals with how Sheik has been approached as a fighter from a development/promotional standpoint. In Melee, Sheik and Zelda were at an equal footing at the time given that they were an all or nothing situation, and Sheik was the more conceivable character in terms of moveset while Zelda had the recurrence and larger legacy. I assume Sheik was revealed first in Melee for being a more conceivable fighter. After Melee, it feels that Zelda was at the forefront compared to Sheik in terms of marketing in Brawl where there was roughly a six/seven month gap between their confirmations, and Zelda being the bigger focus even after Sheik’s confirmation. After Brawl, it feels like Sheik hasn’t been used much in promoting the game, making me feel like the developers are less attached to her compared to other longterm veterans. In spite of being a second Zelda with what I assume is less attachment from the developers compared to other longterm fighters, cutting a longterm veteran is probably something not taken lightly like how there was considerable weight going into Waluigi’s Mario Kart 7 or Ice Climbers’ SSBFor absence, and Sheik was one of Link’s main allies in one the most prominent Legend of Zelda games.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Their point wasn't that that people literally don't remember him, it's that he just doesn't stand out amongst the two other Links so people don't talk about him as much.

Toon Link stands out MORE than Young Link does though.

If they rework Toon Link to actually use stuff from Wind Waker / Four Swords I feel like there's room for all three versions of the character.

Especially if they also rework Young Link to actually use stuff from Majora's Mask.

 

[RileyXY1]

Toon Link stands out MORE than Young Link does though.

Especially considering that he represents a lot more Zelda games than Young Link does. That cell-shaded art style was all the rage for Zelda back in the 2000s. Every single Zelda game released in between Melee and Brawl except for Twilight Princess use that art style.

 

[Dukefire]

Most of our characters have good reason to stay, so I don't see why we'd get a massive amount of cuts, unless there's time restraints. And if that's the case, we'd be sure to get a lot of the cuts back as DLC.

Ice climbers wasn't in smash 4 due to the 3ds hardware unable to handle their AI. So, that's why they couldn't appear in the Wii U version. Technical problems could also influence the character.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Especially if they also rework Young Link to actually use stuff from Majora's Mask.

They'll never give him the Deku, Goron and Zora transformations. Fierce Deity Final Smash and hopefully playable Skull Kid is all we can hope for.

 

[DKing]

When I think about cuts I could see Pichu being cut in the next entry because if it wasn't for everyone is here Pichu wouldn't be considered for ultimate. If cut are on the table.

 

[Dukefire]

When I think about cuts I could see Pichu being cut in the next entry because if it wasn't for everyone is here Pichu wouldn't be considered for ultimate. If cut are on the table.

Pichu:
1. A echo of Pikachu
2. The lightest character of all the roster. Jigglypuff being second lightest.
3. Being a pre-evolution, it does damage itself whenever it uses electricity attacks. Fitting since it cannot control electricity well yet in pokemon. In return, lack of control means stronger attacks.

I can say he was ok, but didn't play him much due to weight and constant fear of being launched. Plus, didn't play pikachu much before going to him

 

[Noipoi]

Keep Pichu.

And add Raichu as an official echo fighter.

And then add Alolan Raichu as an echo of the echo.

And then add all the Pikachu clones.

Every chu is here.