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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

BritishGuy54

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Okay. The write up is done. The visual aides are taking a lot longer than expected and they're having some slight technical issues.

So uh... I'm going to use this as a test to see if the technical issues are fixed.

If not, ignore. If it works, do with the information as you may. You should expect nearly every franchise to have something similar.


EDIT: Oh goodie it works!
Huh. I was right. Waluigi dominated, Paper Mario in second, and Toad managing to beat Geno.

I do wonder who barely missed out on the top 5 Mario characters. Maybe Birdo? Dry Bowser?

Speaking of Pyra and Mythra and the hardware limitations thing, I've been wondering something for a while... how would you all feel if Rex WAS eventually added to Smash Bros., BUT he was instead paired with Pneuma (to sort of 'salvage' his Rex w/ Pyra and Mythra concept)?
Hmm. I wouldn’t be opposed to it. But I would rather just add Pneuma to Pyra and Mythra to complete the trinity.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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36 characters? I'll try.

01. Toad
02. Geno
03. Dixie Kong
04. Cranky Kong
05. Skull Kid
06. Rauru
07. Raven Beak
08. Bandana Dee
09. Marx
10. Andross (in his "full body" SFZ version)
11. Gengar
12. Porky
13. Pico
14. Sigurd (on his horse)
15. Tom Nook
16. KK Slider
17. Octoling
18. Knuckles
19. Dr. Eggman
20. Vivi
21. Alucard
22. Gruntilda
23. Isaac
24. Starfy
25. Andy
26. Kururin
27. Mach Rider
28. Bomberman
29. Doom Slayer
30. John Marston
31. Chosen Undead
32. Pyramid Head
33. Leon S. Kennedy / Jill Valentine
34. Crash
35. Marco Rossi
36. Frisk
 

Pupp135

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Okay. The write up is done. The visual aides are taking a lot longer than expected and they're having some slight technical issues.

So uh... I'm going to use this as a test to see if the technical issues are fixed.

If not, ignore. If it works, do with the information as you may. You should expect nearly every franchise to have something similar.


EDIT: Oh goodie it works!
I’m excited to see the final results, and the Super Mario results seem in line with what I mostly expect.
 

Guynamednelson

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I think it'd be interesting to try to pick characters who have high quality models that can already be used (whether or not it's a smash model). So here's my "Smash Ultimate Fighter Pass: Budget Edition", along with where the model would be taken from. Aditionally, if nintendo has to pay for 3rd parties or do renegotiations, I doubt they would get into a budget pass so im leaving them out. Sorry bomberman fans :(
I wouldn't say it's "low budget" so much as blatant asset reuse is pretty much the only way something like the BCP could be as massive as it was. That said, I guess I should list how I imagined one for Smash:

Wave 1: Waluigi, Shadow, Skull Kid
Wave 2: Krystal, Zero, Lyn
Wave 3: Poke Ball Promo, Alucard, Bandana Dee
Wave 4: Spring Man, Shovel Knight, Rex
Wave 5: Octoling, Gray Fox (they could probably borrow the MGR Raiden model and do that instead if they're talking with Konami), Isaac
Wave 6: Ashley, Geno, Starfy

1 third-party in each to hopefully soften the blow, and starting in wave 4 they'd add characters who need new stages as well, much like how in wave 4 of the BCP they started adding new drivers.
 

Laniv

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Okay. The write up is done. The visual aides are taking a lot longer than expected and they're having some slight technical issues.

So uh... I'm going to use this as a test to see if the technical issues are fixed.

If not, ignore. If it works, do with the information as you may. You should expect nearly every franchise to have something similar.


EDIT: Oh goodie it works!
2 Toads in the top 5... You love to see it.

In much sadder news, Atsuko Tanaka, the Japanese voice actress for Bayonetta, has died at the age of 61.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here is Masahiro Sakurai's post on the matter:

There was a problem fetching the tweet
 

Gengar84

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Toad and Captain Toad being both so high is something. Would have they surpassed anyone of their votes weren't split between the two of them?
Yeah, I’m curious on that one too. I imagine Toad, Toadette, and Captain Toad could all be alts if we got them in Smash kind of like the Koopalings. You could throw in others like Toadsworth while you’re at it.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Captain Toad and Toad are different people. As is Toadette. It makes a lot of sense to separate them.

Even moreso with the first two having very different skills in the games. Being the same species doesn't mean much. Besides that, Bowser Jr.'s factor is that the Koopa Clown Car is the actual moveset. If it weren't for that, the Koopalings wouldn't have worked as alts. This isn't a situation applicable to Toad and Captain Toad in itself. Obviously that doesn't mean costumes can't work for them either or anything, just that the analogy misses something key.
 

fogbadge

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Captain Toad and Toad are different people. As is Toadette. It makes a lot of sense to separate them.

Even moreso with the first two having very different skills in the games. Being the same species doesn't mean much. Besides that, Bowser Jr.'s factor is that the Koopa Clown Car is the actual moveset. If it weren't for that, the Koopalings wouldn't have worked as alts. This isn't a situation applicable to Toad and Captain Toad in itself. Obviously that doesn't mean costumes can't work for them either or anything, just that the analogy misses something key.
I’ll take what I can get
 

Gengar84

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Captain Toad and Toad are different people. As is Toadette. It makes a lot of sense to separate them.

Even moreso with the first two having very different skills in the games. Being the same species doesn't mean much. Besides that, Bowser Jr.'s factor is that the Koopa Clown Car is the actual moveset. If it weren't for that, the Koopalings wouldn't have worked as alts. This isn't a situation applicable to Toad and Captain Toad in itself. Obviously that doesn't mean costumes can't work for them either or anything, just that the analogy misses something key.
Fair enough but I still don’t think it’s really an issue. You could always just say the Captain Toad alt is Toad in a Captain Toad outfit. The Toads have more similar proportions to each other than the Koopalings did. I think that’s the main obstacle that would have prevented them as working as alts without the clown car. Another example is Olimar and Alph. They’re also completely different characters that don’t have identical skill sets but Smash was able to make them work as alts without issue.

Just because a character can have a unique moveset doesn’t mean they have to in Smash. Dark Samus, for example, had a whole list of abilities they could have pulled from for a unique moveset but it was easier to make it an echo. I think it was worth the sacrifice in accuracy to get Dark Samus at all. They probably could have come up with a more unique moveset for Daisy if they wanted to as well. That’s true for pretty much all the echoes we have.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Fair enough but I still don’t think it’s really an issue. You could always just say the Captain Toad alt is Toad in a Captain Toad outfit. The Toads have more similar proportions to each other than the Koopalings did. I think that’s the main obstacle that would have prevented them as working as alts without the clown car. Another example is Olimar and Alph. They’re also completely different characters that don’t have identical skill sets but Smash was able to make them work as alts without issue.

Just because a character can have a unique moveset doesn’t mean they have to in Smash. Dark Samus, for example, had a whole list of abilities they could have pulled from for a unique moveset but it was easier to make it an echo. I think it was worth the sacrifice in accuracy to get Dark Samus at all. They probably could have come up with a more unique moveset for Daisy if they wanted to as well. That’s true for pretty much all the echoes we have.
Olimar and Alph have barely any differences, though. Toad and Captain Toad play extremely differently. Hell, they're from essentially different genre of gamepaly.

Dark Samus is also a special example of an Echo who wouldn't have gotten in otherwise. Unlike Captain Toad, Dark Samus also can perform very similar skills and it's even an in-universe reason. She's using Samus' old suit. This doesn't apply to Toad and Captain Toad as they're designed quite differently. And we're not talking about an Echo situation either way(which definitely wouldn't work either, as Captain Toad really doesn't use Toad's gameplay anyway. Not unlike part of why Isabelle isn't an Echo, though bodyshape was also a major role and a rule to why one can't be an Echo). Daisy is also a very badly done one and should've had a minor difference like Richter or Dark Samus do. Not a "one that exists, but is barely noticeable".

As I said, the analogies simply don't work. The only thing they have in common is bodyshapes, but that's it. That doesn't mean they can't work, but the reasonings don't really hold up with the analogies.

The main thing anyway was "why are they separated?" And that's because they're different characters. The fact they're much more highly different than what would expect also helps too. That said, Captain Toad works fine as an alt anyway because the rest of the stuff would have no effect on gameplay. It's as minor as Meta Ridley's changes. On the other hand, if that's treated as "too much bulk for the model", then it wouldn't happen. Technically speaking, the changes with the backpack are a bit bigger than Meta Ridley's model differences, but it doesn't feel that big of a deal. So it could work. Sure, it would make Captain Toad look fairly OOC(far more than Dark Samus who is remotely believable with Samus' skills), but as said above by Fogbadge; "I'll take what I can get."
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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It still blows my mind how, if we're assuming Nintendo approached him to ask, C418 didn't let any of his Minecraft tracks be remixed/used for Ultimate. That's like the opportunity of a lifetime (aside from getting to compose music for Minecraft itself) and it just didn't happen.

("They're too slow-paced to work" is only a half-truth since the japanese presentation on Steve mentions other complications as well. The Smash team is no stranger to remixing slower tracks to be upbeat, with Halland/Dalarna ironically being the most relevant example of this, along with a plethora of other songs.)
I had apparantly forgotten to respond to this earlier, but since it was in my quotes...

IIRC the reason why negotiations with C418 fell through is because Nintendo would have owned the remixes, and he wants his music to stay free for others to use. I think there have been cases where remixes of songs have gotten the use of the original songs copyrighted, so I think it's a pretty valid concern whichever way you look at it. Unfortunate, but valid.

Well, looks like the next Smash game is gonna have a lot of recasts. RIP Atsuko Tanaka.
Depends on whether or not they appear in the next game, and if they even record new lines for those characters.

Toad and Captain Toad being both so high is something. Would have they surpassed anyone of their votes weren't split between the two of them?
I think the deal is that if you want Toad, Captain Toad is generally, but not always, also acceptable, so people who voted for one were highly likely to have voted for the other.
 

Gengar84

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Olimar and Alph have barely any differences, though. Toad and Captain Toad play extremely differently. Hell, they're from essentially different genre of gamepaly.

Dark Samus is also a special example of an Echo who wouldn't have gotten in otherwise. Unlike Captain Toad, Dark Samus also can perform very similar skills and it's even an in-universe reason. She's using Samus' old suit. This doesn't apply to Toad and Captain Toad as they're designed quite differently. And we're not talking about an Echo situation either way(which definitely wouldn't work either, as Captain Toad really doesn't use Toad's gameplay anyway. Not unlike part of why Isabelle isn't an Echo, though bodyshape was also a major role and a rule to why one can't be an Echo). Daisy is also a very badly done one and should've had a minor difference like Richter or Dark Samus do. Not a "one that exists, but is barely noticeable".

As I said, the analogies simply don't work. The only thing they have in common is bodyshapes, but that's it. That doesn't mean they can't work, but the reasonings don't really hold up with the analogies.

The main thing anyway was "why are they separated?" And that's because they're different characters. The fact they're much more highly different than what would expect also helps too. That said, Captain Toad works fine as an alt anyway because the rest of the stuff would have no effect on gameplay. It's as minor as Meta Ridley's changes. On the other hand, if that's treated as "too much bulk for the model", then it wouldn't happen. Technically speaking, the changes with the backpack are a bit bigger than Meta Ridley's model differences, but it doesn't feel that big of a deal. So it could work. Sure, it would make Captain Toad look fairly OOC(far more than Dark Samus who is remotely believable with Samus' skills), but as said above by Fogbadge; "I'll take what I can get."
Yeah that makes sense I suppose. Like I said, they can always advertise it as Toad just wearing a Captain Toad costume so the differences in abilities aren’t really a barrier. Conversely, if Captain Toad was the default, they could just have an outfit without his headlight or backpack as a callback to normal Toad. It would still be Captain Toad, just without the accessories. Toadette would be a little more tricky with this approach though.

I think they could do something similar giving Pikachu a detective cap and a captain’s hat. Detective Pikachu and Captain Pikachu are their own individual characters with their own abilities but it would just be a fun costume nod as a reference to that character instead of literally being that character. Similarly, they could give us a Bandana Dee alt without the bandana as a callback to the basic enemy. Anyway, I respect that others might not have the same opinion and that’s cool. I just think it’s a fun and simple way to reference another character without too much work.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yeah that makes sense I suppose. Like I said, they can always advertise it as Toad just wearing a Captain Toad costume so the differences in abilities aren’t really a barrier. Conversely, if Captain Toad was the default, they could just have an outfit without his headlight or backpack as a callback to normal Toad. It would still be Captain Toad, just without the accessories. Toadette would be a little more tricky with this approach though.

I think they could do something similar giving Pikachu a detective cap and a captain’s hat. Detective Pikachu and Captain Pikachu are their own individual characters with their own abilities but it would just be a fun costume nod as a reference to that character instead of literally being that character. Similarly, they could give us a Bandana Dee alt without the bandana as a callback to the basic enemy. Anyway, I respect that others might not have the same opinion and that’s cool. I just think it’s a fun and simple way to reference another character without too much work.
Yeah, it really comes down to how much the backpack counts as too much of a model change at the end of the day. I don't think we have any actual examples of a fairly big model difference. Meta Ridley is the closest, as they're still very minor bits(but also were pretty difficult to get going, as it wasn't even plausible for the demos).
 

Gengar84

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Yeah, it really comes down to how much the backpack counts as too much of a model change at the end of the day. I don't think we have any actual examples of a fairly big model difference. Meta Ridley is the closest, as they're still very minor bits(but also were pretty difficult to get going, as it wasn't even plausible for the demos).
There’s Advent Children Cloud and Kazuya that have the long coats that require different physics compared to their base outfits but those are the biggest I can think of off the top of my head. I’m not sure how much more work a backpack would be compared to something like a coat.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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There’s Advent Children Cloud and Kazuya that have the long coats that require different physics compared to their base outfits but those are the biggest I can think of off the top of my head. I’m not sure how much more work a backpack would be compared to something like a coat.
Different physics in what way? Do you mean just how they animate in the wind? Or something else? That way I get what you mean. But yeah, any model change can possibly matter. It depends how much they affect said model. Making a hurtbox bulkier is a bigger gameplay change than anything aesthetic, respectively.
 
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Gengar84

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Different physics in what way? Do you mean just how they animate in the wind? Or something else? That way I get what you mean. But yeah, any mode change can possibly matter. It depends how much they affect said model. Making a hurtbox bulkier is a bigger gameplay change than anything aesthetic, respectively.
Yeah, I was referring to how they animate in the wind and when a character is running or falling. Kind of like how long hair or capes are affected but to a lesser degree. I think the backpack could just be an aesthetic change and not affect the hurtbox at all. I don’t think Jigglypuff’s hats affect that at all despite making the model bigger.
 

Gengar84

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Seeing that new Sonic Generations trailer and his Doom powers...

I think Shadow has enough potential to have a moveset of his own rather than being an Echo.
I agree. I think he’s a lot like Impa or Dixie Kong in that way. They all easily have enough to work with for a completely original moveset but could also feasibly work as echoes as well if they aren’t as highly prioritized. I’ll always prefer a completely original moveset if I had the option but I can accept an echo if that’s the only way we can get them. Thankfully, I think all three are popular enough characters to warrant the extra effort for a unique moveset.
 

DarthEnderX

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Huh. I was right. Waluigi dominated, Paper Mario in second, and Toad managing to beat Geno.
If you didn't count Toad and Captain Toad as 2 separate Fighters, would they be in 1st place?

The scoring system is confusing. 272% of what?

Captain Toad and Toad are different people. As is Toadette. It makes a lot of sense to separate them.
Koopalings are separate people too. There's no reason the Toads should be separate Fighters.

Even moreso with the first two having very different skills in the games.
So are Simon and Richer. They still gave them both the same amalgamated moveset.

In game, Toad plays the same as Mario. There's no way a Toad Fighter doesn't include Treasure Tracker moves, purely out of necessity.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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If you didn't count Toad and Captain Toad as 2 separate Fighters, would they be in 1st place?

The scoring system is confusing. 272% of what?
Since you can vote for however many different characters at once it wouldn't make sense to combine votes. The most accurate would probably just be to delete Captain Toad and all his votes.
 

Schnee117

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Seeing that new Sonic Generations trailer and his Doom powers...

I think Shadow has enough potential to have a moveset of his own rather than being an Echo.


Always has

And this series has had plenty of cases of characters with unique moveset potential being stuck as clones.
I wonder if there's substantial differences between Shadow and all the echo fighters we have that make the notion of him being an echo outright silly to put it very kindly...
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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This is Captain Toad erasure. I’d prefer him way more than regular Toad.
While I don't prefer one over the other, I think Captain Toad has a stronger gameplay hook than regular Toad. Or at least, I'd have an easier time designing Captain Toad than regular Toad.

Honestly, I think the main reason why Toad hasn't been added yet is because all they really have to go on is that he's cute, and kind of a wuss. Pretty much every fan concept I've seen of him is like "hey, since Mario can't use a bunch of power ups, we'll give them to Toad" and usually it just kind of shows why Mario can't use all than many power ups in his moveset because the whole thing feels disjointed. Granted, my idea for Captain Toad is similar, but I reign things in by limiting the item usage to Shulk style stances that enhance the base moveset rather than scattering power ups all over.
 

Gengar84

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Admittedly, my stances on what’s acceptable for echoes and alts are a bit skewed thanks to primarily playing Smash with mods since Brawl. I’m just very used to using completely different characters as alts that would have never been added in an official release. As long as the proportions and moveset even vaguely fit the character, I’m cool with it. It only starts feeling weird when a character is ported over someone that doesn’t remotely fit at all. Thankfully, for the majority of characters you could think of, there’s a Smash character that at least somewhat fits.

Thanks to that, I’m way more open to sacrificing a bit of accuracy if it means I can play as a character I like that wouldn’t have made it otherwise. My only real issue is relegating a character to an echo that I feel was important enough that they could have easily made it in as unique.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Toad and Captain Toad being both so high is something. Would have they surpassed anyone of their votes weren't split between the two of them?
If you combined them, they would surpass Waluigi, but that would complicate things a lot.

Huh. I was right. Waluigi dominated, Paper Mario in second, and Toad managing to beat Geno.

I do wonder who barely missed out on the top 5 Mario characters. Maybe Birdo? Dry Bowser?
Kamek and King Boo.

The scoring system is confusing. 272% of what?
The percentage is just a fun homage for the visual. The write up will blatantly say 272 votes if that's confusing.
 

BuckleyTim

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I will say at the very least a heavy amount of sonic's smash moves are derived from Sonic The Fighters, a game now relegated to the Classic era of the franchise while Shadow is a pretty obvious face of the Dreamcast era onwards. Given that each character in Fighters have unique moves it'd be weird to overlay Shadow on that (which is why i also don't like it when people suggest Tails as a Sonic echo as he also had a unique moveset in Fighters)

Granted, I want Sonic to have a brand new moveset in the next smash. Shadow echoing Sonic's rushed outdated moveset from 08 would suck. I'm not saying they couldn't do that, but at that point that means both sonic and shadow are gonna have sucky movesets... ouch
 

Sucumbio

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I loved boxing Liquid Snake in MGS. Liquid had a bunch of moves that Snake didn't ... If Liquid was available as an echo of Snake I'd take it if they gave him enough difference like dash attach becomes shoulder bash etc same but different, yeah that's cool... Solidus Snake tho nah he's gotta have more in common with Min Min but anyway point is unless you base Shadow off someone he's gonna have the moon to pick from and no one to shoulder it so let's make him a unique newcomer and everyone wins!
 
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