Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

"Independent" of what though? Of publishers? WayForward IS a publisher.

Independent of major publishers.

If you don't go by size, then the so-called "definition" of indie could be applied to companies like Capcom or SquareEnix just as easily as it could Toby Fox. Which would make the term completely useless.

According to Wikipedia, "An indie game, short for independent video game, is a video game created by individuals or smaller development teams without the financial and technical support of a large game publisher".

But how do you define a "large" game publisher? By size and money obviously. But where is the cutoff? Is 10 people still indie? Is 50? 100? 500?

It doesn't say. So how big does WayForward have to get before people stop calling it indie? They employ over 100 people at this point.

Are Hotline Miami and Enter the Gungeon indie? They were developed by smaller teams, but then published by Devolver, which is a company bigger than Wayforward. But Devolver only publishes indie games. But it's a company of a few hundred. So are they indie?

Fortunately, because there really is no empirical checklist (apart from not being owned by a major publisher), more just a constellation of traits, there's generally a public consensus regarding which characters are indie and which aren't. Though I'm sure there are some exceptions, Shantae isn't one of them.

Regardless of this conversation, she is considered indie. If she gets included, she will be considered an indie inclusion. And it will be ubiquitous enough that occasional dissent won't alter the consensus. Even Smash seems to treat her as indie, given she received treatment similar to Sans and Cuphead.

And if you're going to quote Wikipedia, don't take only the favorable parts for your argument. Here's some other stuff:

However, as with both indie films and music, there is no exact, widely accepted definition of what constitutes an "indie game" besides falling well outside the bounds of triple-A video game development by large publishers and development studios.

Dan Pearce of IGN stated that the only consensus for what constitutes an indie game is a "I know it when I see it"-type assessment, since no single definition can capture what games are broadly considered indie

There is no definitive size to how big an independent game development studio might be.

WayForward's size isn't enough to counterbalance the aspects of being indie that do align with it and Shantae, and since that number of employees doesn't inherently preclude it from the label - I mean the games of Devolver and Team17 are seen as indie - the series is still considered indie.

 

[fogbadge]

He's back in Mario Party. Smash is next, surely!

i sure hope so

Pokémon Sword and Shield, Legends Arceus, and Scarlet and Violet have all released in the time since the last Smash game. Bringing with them over 200 new Pokemon.

Which ones would make cool Pokeball summons in the next game?

well seeing as you're asking

Intelleon - runs around the stage snipe shoting people
Iron Valiant - unleashes a flurry of psycho cuts
Grafaiai - strikes with a powerful poison jab
Overquil - floats around jabbing people with spikes, can be knocked into people
Garganacl - spreads a cloud of salt that damages foes and heals summoner
Pecherunt - rains poison mochi on the stage
Wugtrio - fires water in three directions

for a start

 

[Gengar84]

i sure hope so



well seeing as you're asking

Intelleon - runs around the stage snipe shoting people
Iron Valiant - unleashes a flurry of psycho cuts
Grafaiai - strikes with a powerful poison jab
Overquil - floats around jabbing people with spikes, can be knocked into people
Garganacl - spreads a cloud of salt that damages foes and heals summoner
Pecherunt - rains poison mochi on the stage
Wugtrio - fires water in three directions

for a start

I think it would be cool if Grafaiai used the same mechanic as the inklings and sprayed paint on your opponent which caused them to take extra damage until it wears off.

 

[fogbadge]

I think it would be cool if Grafaiai used the same mechanic as the inklings and sprayed paint on your opponent which caused them to take extra damage until it wears off.

that was my first thought

 

[dream1ng]

It's going to be interesting to see how Pokemon plays out given the next gen seems a bit too far away to have a spot reserved for it in Smash's base, assuming 6's development began last year (or earlier). Typically the window for upcoming games seems one year away or less, with anything that exceeds it, like XC2 did, not in reach. But at the same time, Gen 9 happened long enough ago that by Smash 6, Gen 10 will already be, if not out, presumably in its promotional phase.

Smash and Pokemon have never overlapped like this, where they really don't align well. Typically Smash has been lucky to enter development in the window closer to the new gen coming out, meaning they could reserve a spot and it would still be current by the time Smash came out. Ultimate and Gen 7 were a little rough, given Gen 8 arrived only a year after Ultimate, but even that was better than this.

This is, in a way, uncharted territory. I wonder if they'd refrain on a Pokemon newcomer in base to instead wait until they could use a Gen 10, and then have it show up probably in the first wave of DLC. I wonder if TPC would be satisfied with that.

Of course that's not the only option, but getting a Gen 9 character in 2026 would be a little strange. And two Pokemon newcomers is certainly possible, it is Pokemon, but I just think it's unwise to ever expect two original newcomers from the same series.

 

[RileyXY1]

I've got an idea for Meowscarada, who would make a large flower sprout from the ground in a similar manner to Dr. Wright's AT.

 

[Gengar84]

It's going to be interesting to see how Pokemon plays out given the next gen seems a bit too far away to have a spot reserved for it in Smash's base, assuming 6's development began last year (or earlier). Typically the window for upcoming games seems one year away or less, with anything that exceeds it, like XC2 did, not in reach. But at the same time, Gen 9 happened long enough ago that by Smash 6, Gen 10 will already be, if not out, presumably in its promotional phase.

Smash and Pokemon have never overlapped like this, where they really don't align well. Typically Smash has been lucky to enter development in the window closer to the new gen coming out, meaning they could reserve a spot and it would still be current by the time Smash came out. Ultimate and Gen 7 were a little rough, given Gen 8 arrived only a year after Ultimate, but even that was better than this.

This is, in a way, uncharted territory. I wonder if they'd refrain on a Pokemon newcomer in base to instead wait until they could use a Gen 10, and then have it show up probably in the first wave of DLC. I wonder if TPC would be satisfied with that.

Of course that's not the only option, but getting a Gen 9 character in 2026 would be a little strange. And two Pokemon newcomers is certainly possible, it is Pokemon, but I just think it's unwise to ever expect two original newcomers from the same series.

I think this would be perfect timing to add an older fan favorite Pokémon if there isn’t a current generation to promote. Most of the people that wanted to play Scarlet and Violet probably already have at this point so it doesn’t make a ton of sense why the Smash newcomer has to be from that generation if it’s already several years old even if it’s still the most recent at the time the roster was chosen. I’m not saying this for any particular reason and I don’t have a specific Pokemon in mind.

 

[Shinuto]

Shantae stuff was included in the last Nintendo indie direct showcase thing so as far as a Nintendo is concerned she's indie. And that's all that matters to me.

 

[fogbadge]

I've got an idea for Meowscarada, who would make a large flower sprout from the ground in a similar manner to Dr. Wright's AT.

speaking of dr wright I feel he needs a tune. he’s been in three smash games now and I’ve seen him hit about once. I think he should chase people before summoning buildings

 

[dream1ng]

I think this would be perfect timing to add an older fan favorite Pokémon if there isn’t a current generation to promote. Most of the people that wanted to play Scarlet and Violet probably already have at this point so it doesn’t make a ton of sense why the Smash newcomer has to be from that generation if it’s already several years old even if it’s still the most recent at the time the roster was chosen.

Yeah, who knows when this sort of timing will line up again, it'd be nice to use it to get a fan favorite from a past gen. Plus the last time we got anything other than a promotional newcomer was Brawl. Ironically, it'd be a breath of fresh air to get something other than the new thing.

I think it may depend on how many newcomers base actually adds, because I don't imagine a non-promo Pokemon would be at the top of their priority list.

I’m not saying this for any particular reason and I don’t have a specific Pokemon in mind.

Course not.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Pecherunt - rains poison mochi on the stage

When you get hit, your character does the chicken dance for 15 seconds.

 

[Gengar84]

When you get hit, your character does the chicken dance for 15 seconds.

Yes. That would be the best Pokeball ever. It has to play that song too.

 

[Borskaboska]

I think this would be perfect timing to add an older fan favorite Pokémon if there isn’t a current generation to promote. Most of the people that wanted to play Scarlet and Violet probably already have at this point so it doesn’t make a ton of sense why the Smash newcomer has to be from that generation if it’s already several years old even if it’s still the most recent at the time the roster was chosen. I’m not saying this for any particular reason and I don’t have a specific Pokemon in mind.

I've been working on what my ideal smash roster would be, and for the pokemon newcomers, mostly because im not personally a fan of the designs they've been putting out the past few gens, I settled on Suicune and Serperior.
Scuicune because i grew up with crystal and I think he's cool, also because I wanted to have another quadruped character on the roster.
Serperior because I love how he actually has tiny little hands tucked behind his back and I think it would be funny if he used them to hold items, and also because I imagine his long tail making for some disgusting ranged hitboxes. Like I can picture his down air in my minds eye already.

 

[Gengar84]

I've been working on what my ideal smash roster would be, and for the pokemon newcomers, mostly because im not personally a fan of the designs they've been putting out the past few gens, I settled on Suicune and Serperior.
Scuicune because i grew up with crystal and I think he's cool, also because I wanted to have another quadruped character on the roster.
Serperior because I love how he actually has tiny little hands tucked behind his back and I think it would be funny if he used them to hold items, and also because I imagine his long tail making for some disgusting ranged hitboxes. Like I can picture his down air in my minds eye already.

Those would both be really cool and unique characters for Smash. I’d love more unique body frames in Smash. We have Duck Hunt for a dog but it’s very different than something like Suicune. We don’t have anything close to a serpent or snake in Smash yet. Suicune is my favorite of any of the legendary trios in the series so it would be awesome. I think my absolute favorites for each of these frames are Houndoom and Seviper but neither are particularly likely.

 

[fogbadge]

When you get hit, your character does the chicken dance for 15 seconds.

Yes. That would be the best Pokeball ever. It has to play that song too.

MOCHI! MOCHI! MOCHI!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

MOCHI! MOCHI! MOCHI!

Imagine if they got all of the voice actors to record lines specifically for this. lol

 

[Slime Scholar]

Does it actually matter if a character is or isn’t a proper indie? I cant think of why Nintendo would care about the distinction, at least when it comes to Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

Does it actually matter if a character is or isn’t a proper indie? I cant think of why Nintendo would care about the distinction, at least when it comes to Smash.

Same. If a character is popular enough to have a ton of support for Smash and Sakurai is able to work out the licensing agreement, that should be all that matters. I’m sure most indie developers would be ecstatic to see their character in Smash so I don’t think licensing would be too difficult.

 

[Will]

Does it actually matter if a character is or isn’t a proper indie? I cant think of why Nintendo would care about the distinction, at least when it comes to Smash.

No. You’re 100% right.

But people love to argue semantics. It’s happened here with Steve prior to his inclusion, in which those debates devolve into:

 

[dream1ng]

Does it actually matter if a character is or isn’t a proper indie? I cant think of why Nintendo would care about the distinction, at least when it comes to Smash.

I wouldn't imagine it does. In fact, you'd think maybe they'd want to include an indie at some point, given the right one would still bring the hype/sales of your average third-party, but probably be significantly cheaper to license.

I wonder how different Steve's trajectory would've been had Microsoft not bought Mojang. I guess it all depends on what MS's exact role was in bringing the character to fruition; how active they were in setting it up. In a certain symbolic sense, we already sort of got an indie character, given that's how he was born.

 

[fogbadge]

Does it actually matter if a character is or isn’t a proper indie? I cant think of why Nintendo would care about the distinction, at least when it comes to Smash.

i imagine the wiki writers will have a long debate over it

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Does it actually matter if a character is or isn’t a proper indie? I cant think of why Nintendo would care about the distinction, at least when it comes to Smash.

People are gatekeeping or making excuses "cause they're an Indie", so it has some relevance.

But yeah, indeed. Characters being an Indie isn't going to prevent them from getting in on its own. Nintendo may not necessarily go for them like Sakurai would as DLC(if DLC is the same deal as Ultimate's, with Nintendo making the core decision of who to suggest to Sakurai Pass-wise). But we also don't know anything about how either feels. Blatantly they do find them worth noting either way. Hence Mii Costumes and AT's.

(Though as noted, Shantae is absolutely treated as an Indie to Nintendo. So it doesn't really matter what thought we have on that. It's one regardless if it were to get into Smash beyond non-playable appearances, unless something changes between now and then. That said, I don't think being Indie has any major effect on her chances. See a bit above for what I mean. We lack data to come to any kind of decent conclusion. "Is it big enough" is not a really good way to look at it. Exactly what does being big enough mean to Sakurai and Nintendo? We definitely shouldn't be saying being an Indie in itself is damning with zero evidence to actually support it. In addition, "big enough" could also just mean sales data in that case. It could mean big enough on the iconic scale. Or maybe that's not a determining factor either? That's how little details we're given. 3rd parties are not very conclusive on details. 1st parties we have more data on, but not that much more).

 

[ninjahmos]

Smash could definitely use some minigames, aside from Break the Targets, Board the Platforms and Race to the Finish.

Maybe they could revitalize Smash Run somehow, even though it was basically inspired by Kirby Air Ride's City Trial mode. And perhaps even add in a Mario Kart/F-Zero-style racing mode.

 

[Oracle Link]

My biggest issue with Ultimate is that aside from Classic Mode, I'm just not as much a fan with Spirits and World of Light compared to Smash Run. I think they have good concepts, they are just not fun to replay. I also don't like how we didn't get a non-Sephiroth Boss Rush, let alone an option to fight Bosses with the Spirit Mode fight replay. Man, how much I wish Smash Run returned, let alone enemy Mooks. Spirits and World of Light would've been more replayable if there were Mooks for you to fight if they were added to some Spirit matches and whatnot.

I don't deny how much Ultimate has brought, but if an Ultimate Deluxe means no new Single-player content to add and no Mooks, then I personally want another Smash Bros to happen, because I want Modes that are just as fun and replayable as Smash Run.

BTW Which mooks would you like to see?
Because smash run had too many kid icarus enemys!
A revamped mook list is key:

Heres just a quick list:

Spoiler

Mario
Goomba
Parakoopa
Pirahna Plant
Boo
Banzai Bill
Hammer Bro

Dk:
Kritter
Klap trap

Yoshi:
Fly Guy
Yarn Raven

Zelda:
Bokoblin (BOTW/ TOTK)
Dark Nut (TP)
Chu Chu (WW)
Redead (OOT)
Octorok (2D)

Metroid:
Space pirate
Alpha Metroid
Crawler
Kihunter

Kirby:
Waddle Doo
Knuckle Joe
Plugg
Bronto Burd
Chef Kawasaki

Pokemon:
Chandelure
Haunter
Ekans
Koffing
Mimikyu

Earthbound:
Devil Car
Starman
Pigmask

Kid Icarus:
Reaper and Reapette
The nose enemy i dunno

Pikmin:
Bulborb
Black Bulbear
Iridescent glint bettle

Splatoon:
Octo Amazon (Octoling enemy)
Octarian

SSB:
Generator
Mite
Ballau
Glir, Glice Glunder
Cloned Fighter
Fighting Polgon (4 Versions)
Wireframe Male/ Female
Figting miis

Mii:
Ghost
Straberry Jam (the slime from miitopia)

RH:
Sneakly Spirit

Sonic:
Eggrobo
Motobug

Megaman:
Mettaur

Pacman:
The 4 ghosts

 

[BuckleyTim]

As someone who doesn't like Shantae, Wayforward is absolutely an indie company. It's just that a lot of their work happens to be doing revivals and remakes for bigger companies under contract (most notably Nintendo ofc), which isn't really the kind of work people think of when they think of the "true, ideal indie studio to represent indies as a whole." Shantae can work as and is an indie rep, but in this instance I think she'd be representing WayForward way more, especially in terms of what content she'd bring (hello there, Space Cuba remix). To be honest, I don't think Sakurai thinks "oh we're shining a spotlight on Indies!" when collabing with something as big as Cuphead or Undertale. While Shovel Knight and Shantae are an order of magnitude smaller they ultimately saw enough to make a deal to make content for them in Smash, and I think individual merit matters just as much here than the concept of "throwing indies a bone". You can extrapolate that to other genre reps or even company reps. The fact that Ken was all we saw of Capcom in the newcomers' CSS for Ultimate kinda does show that some kind of quota or balance isn't really on the devs' minds... at least not 100% of the time.

I will say Wayforward is playing very smart with negotiations and their connections, even if I don't care about their IP. Even now I'm fully predicting that Shantae shows up as an AT at the very least next game.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm not gonna lie, we can split hairs about who is indie and who isn't all day but I don't even think that will have much influence on the decision making process. Is Wayforward an indie company? Yeah, probably. Would Shantae be chosen because she's an indie game character, or because she's a popular fan request and Wayforward is a frequent collaborator with Nintendo? The former may play a role in distinguishing her from the crowd, and perhaps there's appeal to Nintendo in representing the flourishing indie market, but I think both of the latter points are far more important.

We often talk about "indie characters" as if they exist in a bubble, like they all belong to the same series - the "indie rep" from "indie" series. It's a bit reductive, no? Like, I don't think we're suddenly gonna get all of them, I think it's fair to compare these kinds of characters to each other, but I've become increasingly tired of the "indie rep" sentiment when there's perfectly good reason to add say, Sans, Zagreus or Shantae independent of their status as an indie game character. The indie label, in this context, does nothing but operate as an arbitrary barrier of entry from those who want to discredit successful games outside of AAA and / or neglect the way these games are different. Otherwise they have credentials comparable to many series from big name developers.

Just going off the previous examples I pointed toward - Undertale, Hades and Shantae. Undertale grew from cult classic to worldwide phenomenon still remembered fondly today with a sequel on the horizon. Hades has seen great success, recently got a sequel, it's shared the TGA stage with several big AAA names. Shantae is, admittedly, from a smaller but overall well liked series. But the characters are standouts and have many fans. Each of these have strong individual justifications for being here, indie or otherwise. So I don't really feel like being pedantic about that anymore.

 

[Shinuto]

I'll say this. I'll be damn surprised if neither Sans Shovel Knight Shantae or Cuphead get playable statue next game. One of them has to make the cut imo

 

[DarthEnderX]

Independent of major publishers.

With no definition of what makes a publisher "major".

And if you're going to quote Wikipedia, don't take only the favorable parts for your argument.

A. I didn't. I quoted the part I was taking issue with.

B. Quoting the very beginning of an article, you know, the part that summarizes the overall point of the article, instead of the entire articles, is how one avoids suffering from bouts of textual diarrhea.

Though I'm sure there are some exceptions, Shantae isn't one of them.

Because nobody bothers to actually think about it. They just go "WayForward was indie 20 years ago. I'm sure that's probably still the case." without even bothering to look at WayForward today.

WayForward's size isn't enough to counterbalance the aspects of being indie that do align with it and Shantae, and since that number of employees doesn't inherently preclude it from the label - I mean the games of Devolver and Team17 are seen as indie - the series is still considered indie.

Yeah, and some people thought Dave the Diver was indie. They also didn't know wtf they were talking about.

Does it actually matter if a character is or isn’t a proper indie? I cant think of why Nintendo would care about the distinction, at least when it comes to Smash.

Does it matter to Nintendo? No.

When someone asks the question "What indie characters do you want in Smash?" Yes. So people aren't just like "Dante!"

but I've become increasingly tired of the "indie rep" sentiment when there's perfectly good reason to add say, Sans, Zagreus or Shantae independent of their status as an indie game character. The indie label, in this context, does nothing but operate as an arbitrary barrier of entry from those who want to discredit successful games outside of AAA and / or neglect the way these games are different.

Nobody was arguing that indie characters can't get into Smash.

 

[Fuzzy Pickles!]

Guess I'll throw my own two cents in there.

Ultimate is a magical game. We are truly blessed with the game that we got. Getting every character in one game was my dream game. It was the funny little hypothetical that would always make you smile. And then it happened and then we got a ton of banger newcomers on top of that. We have almost every stage. The gameplay is fantastic and the speed increase was a wonderful move. I'm a super Nintendo nerd, so the references in the spirit battles aren't lost on me. It truly feels like the ultimate Smash game, pun intended. There's so much content in this game and its so well made that I can still have fun playing its modes to this day. I'm not bored of it yet.

I know we're always talking about new stuff here. That's the point of the thread, but wow. We truly don't understand just how well we have it right now. Ultimate isn't appreciated enough in my opinion. Sakurai, the dev team, Nintendo and all of the companies involved made something truly special and is something I'll treasure for all of time.

Sure, there are a LOT of flaws, some of them major and frustrating. But what we got is truly special, and because of that, I... don't really want a brand new Smash game. I'd personally be satisfied if Ultimate was added onto and changed and improved forever. Sakurai was right when he said he might have put himself into a corner here. Anything after this is going to feel like a downgrade in some way. At least to me.

All that said, I'm not going to pretend that Ultimate Deluxe is happening. If the next system is backwards compatible (and I hope it is), there isn't much point porting any Switch game to a new console. I'd love a "complete package," where the DLC wouldn't have to be downloaded for preservation's sake, but Ultimate Deluxe isn't happening. I'd be more willing to believe another game where EIH is happening again (real slim chances there), then believe in Ultimate Deluxe.

People are going to buy Smash no matter what because its Smash, and it would take some MAJOR screw ups to not make a significant profit. And honestly, part of the reason why I personally cling onto Ultimate so much is because I expect the next Smash game to be radically different. If you advertise a very similar game with less stuff, people will start to feel frustrated. But a different, new kind of game with less stuff doesn't do that nearly as much. I expect the next Smash to have some sort of hook or gimmick to make it stand out from other games. The gimmick will probably be fun and I'll probably enjoy it, but I'm not even going to pretend to predict what it will be. I can't feel that excited for a gameplay change that I don't even know exists. Things like air dashes and level supers can be fun to discuss, but they aren't happening at the moment. I just expect the next Smash to be designed from the ground up to expand on this new gimmick. And that's where I think people are underestimating the amount of cuts there will be. Suddenly all those characters we take for granted are gone. Cuts by themselves aren't bad. I understand why they exist. Games can't go on forever. But I think a lot of characters people love will be gone. A lot of characters I love will be gone. I expect the roster to be around 40 - 55, counting echoes.

And well, that wouldn't be so bad if I didn't know that people would clown on the characters who got cut, ignoring the value and joy they brought. I know I shouldn't let other people's opinions bug me on that but Smash is really special to me. It already annoys me when people say "X is worthless." The next game is going to bring that out, tenfold. I dunno. I just can't really get excited for a new Smash at the moment. My most wanted characters are either already in, not getting in a smaller roster or simply aren't getting in anyways (RIP Lloyd, Crono, Phoenix, Isaac). There's Bandana Waddle Dee as a standout. I think he's got a good shot, but not on a small roster. I enjoy a lot of games, so other characters like Ring Fit Adventurer or the Astral Chain Hero would make me happy. Speculating and supporting those characters are fun. I like talking about possibilities. Even obscure ones (Zael my beloved) but I'm tired of people convincing themselves things are happening. I'm tired of cult threads. I have an aversion to certain characters now that I shouldn't have because their threads were THAT bad. It's not the character's fault and its not right, but its hard to get rid of those emotions entirely. A new game, especially one that's radically different with lots of cuts will only make that whole internet scene worse. And I hate saying this, but I think all of the third party "hype tourists" have made speculation exhausting. I love third party characters. They don't tarnish the game in the slightest and only make it better, but some fanbases can be real obnoxious when its clear they don't actually like Smash in the first place. I think the next game is going to be smaller in scope and I think the Ultimate DLC ballooned third party expectations to an absurd degree. We're getting a smaller cast and the speculation community is not going to take that well. Right now, its pretty chill, but during a full hype cycle? Hoo boy, its going to be rough.

I know a new one is coming soon, but because of all the reasons above, I'm just content with Ultimate for now. I'm not feeling that itch yet. I kinda want other Nintendo franchises to continue for a while so we can get more and more possibilities for newcomers, stages, items and assists. Maybe a reveal trailer will wow me. Maybe the gameplay hook will be so good, I'll be talking about it for days.

But for the first time, the idea of a new Smash game just fills me with... indifference?

Maybe I'm being cynical or just stuck in my ways, but I'm just speaking honestly right now. I know this isn't the popular opinion. I too share Mario Kart 8 fatigue and Ultimate is certainly starting to show its age in many ways (online please work). I get the desire for a new game. I'm just not feeling it right now.

I’ve long reach this point with Ultimate in that I’m more than satisfied with what the franchise achieved. A new game could never come out and I wouldn’t blink an eye at it. This is a game that I still play with family and friends and will likely continue to do so for decades. Plus I suspect there will continue to be locals to attend for the game much like how people still run them for Melee, a twenty-three year old game. There’s no guarantee that I’ll get the next game even if I buy a Switch 2 for all the reasons you mentioned. You’d have to get someone like Bomberman or Dixie Kong for me to guarantee a purchase and I’m not optimistic enough on either characters to keep actively pushing for them individually on the Internet.

What I would like to see, however, is a Smash Bros. game with Nintendo properties vs. another company. Remember back in 2010 when people freaked out about Yoshinori Ono mentioning Nintendo vs. Capcom as a fighting game? Imagine if that happened. We could get franchises like Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, Devil May Cry, as well as more obscure series like Darkstalkers and Rival School debut in Smash. Maybe Nintendo will also bring out Saki Amamiya from Sin & Punishment as a playable character.

Even with only forty characters, if you divide that evenly between Nintendo and Capcom, that makes for a very exciting crossover. Same thing can happen with Sega too. We’d finally get to have multiple Sonic characters.

Probably won’t sell thirty million copies, but at least it would keep the franchise fresh.

 

[Sucumbio]

I always considered gaming companies independent so long as they are not bought by anyone or buying anyone. Being large enough to procure another studio in other words probably signifies they're no longer independent. So for Wayforward to join the ranks of "major" publishers they're gonna have to start by buying a smaller studio.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Project+ Text

 

[DarthEnderX]

I always considered gaming companies independent so long as they are not bought by anyone or buying anyone. Being large enough to procure another studio in other words probably signifies they're no longer independent. So for Wayforward to join the ranks of "major" publishers they're gonna have to start by buying a smaller studio.

Interesting distinction. I'd be curious to see results of that breakdown, but don't want to do the homework to find out myself...

Project+ Text

Double Cherry would legit be a great Item.

 

[smashkirby]

Japanese skewed characters like Takamaru or Sukapon (or Lip?), once upon a time, were reasonable exclusions since overseas audiences couldn't feasibly be introduced to the characters. Nowadays with NSO service, as well as their presence in Smash at all as Assist Trophies (in Lip's case, a costume), I think you can get away with it. It may still be safer for Sakurai to go for something with more obvious nostalgic appeal like Excitebike, but at least the greater obstacles in place that prevented these characters from being added in the past have eased up.

I think they have pretty easy selling points as well. For Takamaru you can just say "hey, this game is kinda like Zelda's forgotten sibling!" And for Sukapon it's as simple as "this was the mascot for Nintendo's first ever fighting game!" So the value and appeal are at least simple to get across. It's on a much different scale, but I think about how quickly much of the community was able to be won over by Terry simply because Sakurai did a good job explaining why he's important. Maybe the success of some characters less familiar to the Smash community will give Sakurai confidence to take further risks.

Re: Retro/Obscure/Region specific characters

Honestly I feel like this is a "**** the casuals" moment for me. Having one character out of a dozen newcomers that a general audience might not be familiar with shouldn't be seen as a problem. Having a few deep cuts or "surprise" characters helps flesh out the roster and make it more interesting imo.

The wider audience may not care for these more niche picks but isn't that why there's only a few of them anyway?

I don't think they need to have a big focus placed on these sorts of characters but it honestly feels like outside these boards, the more general player base has developed a sort of aversion to smaller IP.

Characters shouldn't be rejected just because not many would recognise them. It's still very possible for an obscure character to still win over those who don't know them with their portrayal, characterisation and coolness factor. Characters like Captain Falcon or Morrigan or Shuma-Gorath didn't get their popularity suddenly overnight before their reveal. They got their popularity for being cool-looking characters that got people interested in who they were. And it's still in effect today. After all, look at the amount of attention the LttP version of Zelda got after her reveal. There are alot more people who are more open to new things than some people think.
And it gives a much needed variety in expectations. If you simply give only what people expect, you're not going to knock people off their rockers much if they always get what they expect. Showing people that more obscure characters and series are as likely as more recent ones keeps people on their toes and it brings hope to fans of those more obscure characters/series and joy if they do get in.

I'll always be vouching for more obscure series to get in Smash Bros, because obscure characters getting in is by no means a bad thing. They can bring cool or fun movesets, they can bring in cool things from their series in terms of items, stages and whatnot and they can get the interest of people who don't know about them and want to learn about them. They can do all that just as much as more popular and more known characters/series can.

I don’t get why people still gatekeep when we have… a potted plant playable, and as you said, Ridley—a character he changed his mind about.

I think it’s fair to say that Sakurai will put whoever he feels would make a good character at the moment. Regardless of fan rules, if Sakurai thinks Takamaru or, hell, even Sheldon from Splatoon would be good additions, then he’ll add them if he can fit them into the game plan.

Do people think Sakurai has a list of rules and can only add characters that fit the checkboxes in the rule list? Like, ‘Oh, I was considering Takamaru in Smash 6, but this rule in the notepad of my MacBook says that retro reps have to have a deep story with them. I guess I’d had to scrap him.’"

Do casuals even hate characters from IPs they don't know as some people claim in forums? My casual friends don't think anything bad of characters they don't know, On the contrary my casual friends mains Little Mac and another mains Joker, and they never heard of Punch-Out or Persona before Smash Bros.
Some people act like adding Dillon from Rolling Western, DeMille from Tomato Adventure or Beat from Jet Set Radio is going to make casuals return copies of the game lol.
Most likely they just won't care or maybe some of them end up liking them.

Generally speaking, most don't, hence the " " in my previous post. Granted there are those who do, but they're in the minority.

I was more alluding to that sentiment within the speculation scene itself. Also a minority, but more vocal. You'll see cases where in speculation the casual audience will be used as a point against more niche series and your "literal who"s.

Most casual players don't care but the "general audience" is an easy/somewhat common point to try to use against smaller franchises.

I know I'm late to the discussion on this, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents here. Personally, I've always been of the belief that with folks like Mario, Link, and Pikachu (and Cloud, Sephiroth, and Steve) being a thing in Smash, I've never felt like anyone would be THAT broken up over 2-3 retro/obscure/niche characters getting added to Smash.

As some of you have already said, this is part of what makes Smash's rosters pretty 'magical' in some ways. It's why I've never been opposed to folks like Takamaru, Ayumi, Lip, Sukapon, Mike Jones, Mr. Stevenson, the Marvelous trio, Lark, etc.

Dare I say it, this is more-or-less the one thing that sort of sours me on 3rd parties being a thing in Smash, given how much they've taken over speculation in a way that actually makes folks suddenly depreciate 1st parties (be they well-known or otherwise) joining Smash as well, and don't even get me started on the lesser-known characters...

Don't forget the main complaint about 3's, which is the function crap. That's really the worst part, though it's a great game otherwise. Mainly that removing MegaMan due to "being a shotoclone", which would've made sense, if they didn't quickly throw Akuma in(albeit, he doesn't miss a game, but a hypocritical point). They did thankfully give us Zero and a return of Tron Bonne, but it's still worth mentioning. It's part of why people accepted the game. They at least gave something cool in return.

That said, 2's was the last time the roster wasn't given any major complaints, but it didn't have really boneheaded decisions. At worst, too many clones. But even then, it was full of diverse and fun characters anyway. MVC One of course had the "where's Iron Man" bit, but it wasn't as bad as others. Mostly cause War Machine was still fun to use and we got a neat variant of him. That, and in some cases, War Machine is still one of Iron Man's Suits. So it's not like it can't be Stark in it.

Anyway, Infinite also had good gameplay, but that only barely saved it. That won't work with Smash, which has an even bigger focus on characters than MvC in general does(which is also part of its appeal, but it has tons of franchises moreso, and a rotating roster anyway, something Smash doesn't have. It's why the rosters are accepted easier. The main issue with Infinite was boneheaded cuts. You can't actually justify Wolverine being gone. It's fine if most of the X-Men aren't there, but he wasn't even DLC. People were quite justified in being pissed off).

Just a minor correction, the "functions" debacle came from Infinite, in relation to the culling of the X-Men from the roster. IIRC Mega Man's exclusion from MvC3 was never actually explained.

I have to wonder... is it petty of me to admit that part of why I don't really care much for MvC3 was because Mega Man AND Roll didn't return for that game?

 

[Arcanir]

Pokémon Sword and Shield, Legends Arceus, and Scarlet and Violet have all released in the time since the last Smash game. Bringing with them over 200 new Pokemon.

Which ones would make cool Pokeball summons in the next game?

Palafin - Takes its unassuming normal form before transforming and immediately hitting the opposing player with Jet Punch.
H!Samurott - Takes a stance before striking with Ceasing Edge, leaving a hazard on the ground where it struck.
Hydrapple - Attacks with the ranged Fickle Beam, with a chance of the other heads joining in for a stronger blast.
Lotix - Jumps around the stage attacking with Axe Kick, Double Kick, and Low Kick.
Ursaluna - Charges the opponent with Headlong Rush, can be ridden.

 

[Shinuto]

Abra: changes it's voice back to the better fitting 4kids one instead of the high-pitched nonsense we have now.

 

[Louie G.]

I think it'd be funny if they added a generic animal character from AC before Nook or KK. Because they all share personality types, individual animal villagers barely get a chance to stand out. Kinda like how they did Piranha Plant.

Meant to acknowledge this the other day and say that would conflict a lot with some of the existing reservations about Animal Crossing. More explicitly than any of the major supporting characters, the animal villagers would have no reason not to just play like Villager or Isabelle. I know it wasn't a very serious suggestion, but it just bears mentioning. That would pretty much be affirming to people that AC only has one thing to offer.

In another world maybe Isabelle had costumes for other animal villagers or something. I can't see them doing it now but the best bet for something like this would probably be as an alternate costume, so long as those characters match the same body type as Villager or Isabelle respectively.

Nobody was arguing that indie characters can't get into Smash.

I didn't say anyone did right now, I just used the basis of the current indie talk to try and make a greater point about the characters and how the classification doesn't matter all that much. In general though I do still see people treat them as inherently lesser candidates and putting them in this "other" category of "indie rep". I'm pretty sure you've said before that you think indie characters are Mii Costume fodder and not playable character material, actually.

 

[Oracle Link]

Im still holding out hope that toy link can be atleast an alt in the next game!
I mean hes been an alt for totk link i think being an alt for toon link wouldnt be weird at all!

Also weirdly enough we already (sorta) have the general artwork version of zeldas echoes of wisdom classic design!
as that design seems to be Oracle and maybe ALTTP inspired!

Also i wonder if hypothetically toy link replaces toon link?
What would his alts be my guess is that he has two costumes:

Links awekening:
No hood, L-1 Sword and mirror Shield
Alts: Green, Red, Blue Shadow

Echoes of wisdom:
Has the hood which can be folded up or down via a taunt button and his weapons from the trailer
Alts: Green, Champion, Yellow and purple

I think thats a cool selection of alts!

Spoiler: story spoiler?

There is the matter that on the artwork links sword is diffrent some think thats evil or possesd link i just think it was a miscommunication!
I think it would be a weird move having an "evil" link plot in the first zelda led game it just wouldnt be reasuring!

 

[dream1ng]

With no definition of what makes a publisher "major".

Well no one thinks WayForward is a major publisher.

It's generally one that puts out titles of a certain larger budget, has a certain level of revenue, often but not necessarily has a large numbers of employs, often but not necessarily is publicly traded, and probably has multiple locations across different countries.

A. I didn't. I quoted the part I was taking issue with.

B. Quoting the very beginning of an article, you know, the part that summarizes the overall point of the article, instead of the entire articles, is how one avoids suffering from bouts of textual diarrhea.

But the points of the rest of the article are still as valid, and dispute your contention.

Because nobody bothers to actually think about it. They just go "WayForward was indie 20 years ago. I'm sure that's probably still the case." without even bothering to look at WayForward today.

Yeah, and some people thought Dave the Diver was indie. They also didn't know wtf they were talking about.

But because indie doesn't have a fixed criteria past not a major publisher (though even that can be a grey area, look at Ori), they're not wrong about games from WayForward, Devolver or Team17. They do fit enough of the trends of indie games. You don't have to abide by every one; it's not a one-strike system.

I can understand wanting a more fixed ruleset, but indie games just don't operate that way. Doesn't mean prescribing a rigid methodology just makes it so.

Does it matter to Nintendo? No.

When someone asks the question "What indie characters do you want in Smash?" Yes. So people aren't just like "Dante!"

Let me know when someone answers Dante to which indie game character do you want in Smash and this will be more than some appeal to extremes.

As it is now, there are no characters the fanbase commonly discusses that they are confused as to being indie or not. Maybe Travis, but that's probably because they don't know Marvelous co-owns him. I know you think Shantae isn't, but you haven't disproven it, because your criteria of "if >100, not indie" not only isn't ubiquitous, but barely seems to have any contingent behind it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Im still holding out hope that toy link can be atleast an alt in the next game!
I mean hes been an alt for totk link i think being an alt for toon link wouldnt be weird at all!

Which alt is this? I can't find anything similar in TOTK itself. I could find the Heroes of Wind outfit(which is based upon Wind Waker).

 

[Will]

I mean hes been an alt for totk link i think being an alt for toon link wouldnt be weird at all!

I disagree, Toy Link isn’t expressive like Toon Link. Those soulless, hollow eyes wouldn’t match his attitude.

EDIT: I misread TOTK Link as Toon Link please excuse my illiteracy my bad