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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Ivander

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I'll forever be annoyed Melee Mute City didn't return as it was a solid stage and differed enough from the SNES version to warrant an inclusion in Ultimate.
Melee Mute City likely didn't return because of Port Town Aero Dive, which pretty much behaves like Melee Mute City, with the car hazards, the moving platform going through the race stage, etc. Not so much because of SNES Mute City.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Melee Mute City likely didn't return because of Port Town Aero Dive, which pretty much behaves like Melee Mute City, with the car hazards, the moving platform going through the race stage, etc. Not so much because of SNES Mute City.
Given the aesthetic differences between the two, it still strikes me as unfortunate to remove it, especially when there are various stages that feel pretty similar but both still made it in.
 

ScrubReborn

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Given the aesthetic differences between the two, it still strikes me as unfortunate to remove it, especially when there are various stages that feel pretty similar but both still made it in.
TBF it seems decently likely Melee Mute City was meant to return; the following is just speculation but they renamed SSB4 Mute City to Mute City SNES. Normally, only stages that share the same name as another in Ultimate got that distinguishment, and I think Mute City is the only Ultimate stage that doesn't share its name with another to get that treatment.

My guess is that Melee Mute City got outprioritzed by the other F-Zero stages for the reasons Ivander mentioned and then they just weren't able to get around to it in time. I really wish we coulda gotten it tho, favorite Smash F-Zero stage by far.
 
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Wonder Smash

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Melee Mute City likely didn't return because of Port Town Aero Dive, which pretty much behaves like Melee Mute City, with the car hazards, the moving platform going through the race stage, etc. Not so much because of SNES Mute City.
Stages may behave the same but that doesn't mean they're identical and only one of them has to be in. Heck, look at some of the Mario stages that also have similar features (Mushroomy Kingdom, 3D Land) and they're all in the same game.
 
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SPEN18

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Wolf was still harder, and Toon Link was most likely harder than Jigglypuff(who at least could reuse multiple Melee animations that Toon Link could not). The point was that it was still easy to make compared to someone like Mewtwo, only comparing it to the other two last developed characters.

That's why it got in over Mewtwo. It was simply easier to work on. It's "fairly unique" doesn't mean it doesn't use a very clear base and has a lot of work done. Wolf, despite being pretty unique, had 70% of the assets done. Toon Link borrowed heavily from Young Link and regular Link. Jigglypuff already had mostly the same moveset from Melee, and wasn't a remodified character, so yes, it was really easy to return. It's only 64 that would've required the most work. Every game otherwise already has a pre-existing character who isn't hard to remake and still uses a base character in Kirby to directly reuse some assets for saving time.

Though that's also why I noted that it wasn't a case of "wasn't on the roster" in a previous post. Jigglypuff is often considered low priority but still makes it in(however, it's kind of awkward since Brawl was the only time it was likely to be cut, but was still planned for the roster). Low priority might not even be an accurate statement at this point, since we haven't seen a case where it wasn't planned from the start outside of its debut game. That's kind of notable. Mewtwo isn't any different, as it was planned for Brawl anyway. The best we know is that if push came to shove, Jigglypuff apparently may make it in over some other Pokemon. But we lack sufficient context in why that applies to every single Pokemon cut. Was Pichu cut cause of low priority? Unpopularity? Replaced by Plusle & Minun as a promotional idea? Etc. Jigglypuff never lacked popularity either, so it's easy to see why it tends to stay. Besides being an easier character to remake(with ported over stuff from both Kirby and the previous Smash game).
It's not "fairly unique"; it's a completely different character than Kirby. They both share a body type and some movement patterns like their jumps, which happen to be simple and easy-to-animate to begin with. It still takes a lot of effort to implement and balance all its moves. How the effort compares to the actually derivative characters we don't know precisely (and clearly it depends on the character we're comparing to). I just think the ease of development thing is possibly being blown a little out of proportion, to the point where some are treating it like an essential throw-in when that's not the case.

Also, it's not that Wolf had 70% of the assets done, but rather that he took about 70% of the effort of a wholly unique fighter. See here: https://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/17/sakuraibrawlquestions/
Anyway that's a huge difference, so important to point out.

And a character can still be low priority even if planned from the start. Not everyone in the initial project plan has the same priority attached. I don't see any issue with the terminology.

Lastly, I think Jigglypuff was very likely also low priority in 4, just ultimately made it in. This is softly evidenced by its very late reveal, in line with other characters who were similarly likely low. It was also the very last base game character on the website. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, just like Brawl, it was one of the very last few who made the cut.
 

ScrubReborn

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When it comes to my tragic losses for past stages?

*Mushroom Kingdom Melee (redundant but I like it more than Kingdom 64)
*Mute City Melee
*Rainbow Road
*Pac-Maze
*Orbital Gate Assault

Honorable mention goes to the World 1-2 version of Mushroomy Kingdom. They did it dirty.

Finally, Miiverse's great comeback! :troll:
Can't wait to see all the Hitler drawings and R34 in the stage background again
 
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Swamp Sensei

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No chance. Can you imagine a Smash game without Dream Land, Temple, Corneria and Delfino Plaza to name a few? I can't.

Out of the stages that didn't return in Ultimate, the only worthwhile ones are just Rainbow Road and Pac Maze imo. Even Pac Maze is a bit iffy because it relied on every player having their own screen. I can't imagine that set of stages making up the returning stage list for SSB6.
This is Melee Mute City, Poke Floats, and Wooly World erasure and I will not stand for it.
 

SPEN18

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Anyway, the question on Jiggs and Lucas is who would you realistically prioritize below them? I find it pretty difficult personally to rank them outside the bottom, like, 15 or so characters.
 

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Lastly, I think Jigglypuff was very likely also low priority in 4, just ultimately made it in. This is softly evidenced by its very late reveal, in line with other characters who were similarly likely low. It was also the very last base game character on the website. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, just like Brawl, it was one of the very last few who made the cut.
I dunno that that really means anything since Jigglypuff is usually unlockable and as a result typically gets put in with those characters. For reference, Falco and Wario were also in the "Secret Fighters Unveiled" section of the Smash 4 Dojo, and nobody ever says a character like Wario was low priority.

As for who you would prioritize underneath Jigglypuff and Lucas in a future game, we really have no idea since we don't know how that works, but Puff may get a lot of leeway just for being part of the original 12. Priorities can change over time if time becomes short and Jigglypuff may have a fast track to the top when time starts to run out because of its status. We really have no way to know, but it hasn't missed a game in 25 years, so it seems a bit silly imo to pretend it might have a shot of missing out on a game.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It's not "fairly unique"; it's a completely different character than Kirby. They both share a body type and some movement patterns like their jumps, which happen to be simple and easy-to-animate to begin with. It still takes a lot of effort to implement and balance all its moves. How the effort compares to the actually derivative characters we don't know precisely (and clearly it depends on the character we're comparing to). I just think the ease of development thing is possibly being blown a little out of proportion, to the point where some are treating it like an essential throw-in when that's not the case.

Also, it's not that Wolf had 70% of the assets done, but rather that he took about 70% of the effort of a wholly unique fighter. See here: https://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/17/sakuraibrawlquestions/
Anyway that's a huge difference, so important to point out.

And a character can still be low priority even if planned from the start. Not everyone in the initial project plan has the same priority attached. I don't see any issue with the terminology.

Lastly, I think Jigglypuff was very likely also low priority in 4, just ultimately made it in. This is softly evidenced by its very late reveal, in line with other characters who were similarly likely low. It was also the very last base game character on the website. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, just like Brawl, it was one of the very last few who made the cut.
Uh, no, Jigglypuff still is easier to make than Wolf was. Because it was in earlier games(a key factor that means it's far easier to bring the Puff back in the first place). There's really nothing to suggest it was at all lower priority outside of Brawl, but that was a circumstance that never came up again too. And we don't know the exact context. It may not have actually been lower priority, just done last because it was easier to make. What is clear is that it wasn't planned as an important piece of the SSE, but that's all we can directly get from it. We're solely basing that on loose information with far less context than what is needed.

My bad on the Wolf bit... which further shows my point of how much harder he is to make than Jigglypuff anyway. Since it takes less effort due to both having a previous build and Kirby to help speed up the model stuff. Every single character requires balancing, etc. due to having any difference whatsoever. That's a given. Absolutely no character who is added separately would take the exact same effort(not even Daisy, who definitely has the lowest work done balance-wise out of any character, respectively).

The fact it was on the original project plan and made it into the final game already makes it clear it's not as low priority as we actually thought. Mewtwo, Dr. Mario, and Roy were the only low priority veterans specifically that had any work done. Young Link and Pichu were the only ones outright low priority due to not even attempted to be brought back(to what we have data on, anyway). Dixie couldn't get far enough in development, so is our only low priority newcomer we know of that got anywhere. And the other Forbidden 7 would be the last 3, respectively(Toon Zelda, Toon Sheik, whatever Pra_Mai actually is).
 

superprincess

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This is Melee Mute City, Poke Floats, and Wooly World erasure and I will not stand for it.
Melee Mute City is not very memorable due to its similarity to Port Town Aero Dive. Looking at other stages that had direct successors like Planet Zebes and Sector Z, it makes sense as to why it didn't return

Poké Floats is great but I feel like the circumstances behind its inclusion were one of a kind and remaking it would kinda defeat the original purpose. It'd be a fun stage to bring back though.

Woolly World I totally forgot even existed which just goes to show how underrated of a stage it is. The layout was simple but fun, welcoming to 4+ player free for alls, and the aesthetic was just super cute.

And while we're on this topic, honorable mention to Orbital Gate Assault. People dislike it for being too gimmicky but I always thought it was cool. The visuals were stunning and fighting atop spacecrafts shooting and ramming into each other made for some chaotic but epic matches.

Rumble Falls will be missed too, but I'm afraid I can't say that in public.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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The fact it was on the original project plan and made it into the final game already makes it clear it's not as low priority as we actually thought.
I will contest this as just because it was an easier addition doesn't mean it wasn't "not as low priority".

Just means it was easier to include in a shorter time frame, especially over the other Pokémon veteran that was in the low priority set :mewtwomelee: .
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I will contest this as just because it was an easier addition doesn't mean it wasn't "not as a low priority".

Just means it was easier to include in a shorter time frame, especially over the other Pokémon veteran that was in the low priority set :mewtwomelee: .
Which is no different from what I'm saying. It's higher priority cause it's easier to put in. That was my main argument to begin with. I admit it was kind of weirdly worded, so apologies.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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What do you guys think of the Pac-Man content in Smash? :ultpacman:
I reeeeally want them to add Pac-Man World music to Smash, especially Pac-Man World 2. Plenty of really good stage and boss themes you could use from that, and that game is super nostalgic to me.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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What do you guys think of the Pac-Man content in Smash? :ultpacman:
Mostly good. I'd love a new gimmick for Pac-Maze, though. It's what made it interesting to me in the first place. Without it, it just had too many walls and platforms to really do much for me, making the game kind of sloggy. But the unique niche it had changed it all up for the better. I don't mind gimmicks, as they can make a stage really fun when its design otherwise isn't that great.

Being iconic obviously didn't make me like the stage. The gimmick, though... that made it really fun(in casual play, anyway).
 

SPEN18

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I dunno that that really means anything since Jigglypuff is usually unlockable and as a result typically gets put in with those characters. For reference, Falco and Wario were also in the "Secret Fighters Unveiled" section of the Smash 4 Dojo, and nobody ever says a character like Wario was low priority.

As for who you would prioritize underneath Jigglypuff and Lucas in a future game, we really have no idea since we don't know how that works, but Puff may get a lot of leeway just for being part of the original 12. Priorities can change over time if time becomes short and Jigglypuff may have a fast track to the top when time starts to run out because of its status. We really have no way to know, but it hasn't missed a game in 25 years, so it seems a bit silly imo to pretend it might have a shot of missing out on a game.
It's not hard evidence, as I stated, and I realize people may put different weight into it as an indicator. However, basically every character in that boat is 100% believable as a lower-priority character. You point out Wario, but he's like the exception that proves the rule; maybe there was some issue going on with him that we don't know about, or maybe he was just outranked by the rest of the Mario cast and so viewed as less essential than fans would think, idk; in any case it's really only one character to explain away. You could say Ganondorf as well, though he is still a derivative so it fits with being added later in development nonetheless. Same for Falco, but I actually think he was probably gonna be on the lower end regardless, as a sidekick-type from a midsize series.

On the other side of the coin, I think when cuts are likely to be more prevalent than ever, it's more risky to pretend it doesn't have a shot of missing out. I seriously doubt they would dramatically change a character's priority mid-development; if time is getting short, it's possible an easier-to-make character could jump the line a bit, sure, but that would only be a matter of one low-priority character getting in over another low-priority character, not a low-priority character suddenly being high-priority.

As for Puff's original 12 status, I personally wouldn't put too much weight into it. The original 12 is extremely lucky even to make it to this point without being touched. Ness was straight-up planned to be replaced in Melee until that didn't work out, Jigglypuff is confirmed to have been low-priority at least in Brawl, and who knows what would've happened in Smash 5 without EiH. All this tells me that such a thing would only be a minor consideration at best. When it comes down to it, they can't afford to give arbitrary boosts to characters like that if they're trying to put together the best roster possible.

--

Uh, no, Jigglypuff still is easier to make than Wolf was. Because it was in earlier games(a key factor that means it's far easier to bring the Puff back in the first place). There's really nothing to suggest it was at all lower priority outside of Brawl, but that was a circumstance that never came up again too. And we don't know the exact context. It may not have actually been lower priority, just done last because it was easier to make. What is clear is that it wasn't planned as an important piece of the SSE, but that's all we can directly get from it. We're solely basing that on loose information with far less context than what is needed.

My bad on the Wolf bit... which further shows my point of how much harder he is to make than Jigglypuff anyway. Since it takes less effort due to both having a previous build and Kirby to help speed up the model stuff. Every single character requires balancing, etc. due to having any difference whatsoever. That's a given. Absolutely no character who is added separately would take the exact same effort(not even Daisy, who definitely has the lowest work done balance-wise out of any character, respectively).

The fact it was on the original project plan and made it into the final game already makes it clear it's not as low priority as we actually thought. Mewtwo, Dr. Mario, and Roy were the only low priority veterans specifically that had any work done. Young Link and Pichu were the only ones outright low priority due to not even attempted to be brought back(to what we have data on, anyway). Dixie couldn't get far enough in development, so is our only low priority newcomer we know of that got anywhere. And the other Forbidden 7 would be the last 3, respectively(Toon Zelda, Toon Sheik, whatever Pra_Mai actually is).
I never made any specific point about Wolf, other than simply pointing out the inaccuracy with the 70% quote. Anyway I can turn it around and say that even if Jigglypuff were about as easy to make as a clone character, that can still be a lot of effort and definitely not a simple throw-in addition.

And I know the balancing has to be done with any character; that was exactly part of my point, that balancing Jiggs's unique moveset is still a time/resource factor even if you ignore all the effort that goes into modelling and animating it.

Finally, yes, we do know for sure that Jigglypuff was low priority in Brawl. See here: https://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/17/sakuraibrawlquestions/
He straight-up says that the three not involved in the SSE plot (Wolf, TL, and Jiggs) were on the brink of being cut, and that they may not have made it if they didn't have as much time.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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It's not hard evidence, as I stated, and I realize people may put different weight into it as an indicator. However, basically every character in that boat is 100% believable as a lower-priority character. You point out Wario, but he's like the exception that proves the rule; maybe there was some issue going on with him that we don't know about, or maybe he was just outranked by the rest of the Mario cast and so viewed as less essential than fans would think, idk; in any case it's really only one character to explain away. You could say Ganondorf as well, though he is still a derivative so it fits with being added later in development nonetheless. Same for Falco, but I actually think he was probably gonna be on the lower end regardless, as a sidekick-type from a midsize series.
G&W and ROB are also in that section of that Dojo. Ness, too.

I can believe the low priority for characters like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit for sure since they didn't even get placed with their other series members, but saying all of Wario, G&W, ROB, Falco, Ganondorf (even with his derivative nature he's still THE MAIN VILLAIN OF ONE OF NINTENDO'S BIGGEST SERIES), and Ness were ALL low priority just because they were revealed late as unlockable characters instead of just avoiding spoiling who's unlockable is a weird way to think about the Dojo reveals imo.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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Jigglypuff being unlockable in Smash For isn't indicative of being low priority.

Jigglypuff being the straight up LAST one in unlock order (on 3DS; Wii U has it as a starting fighter), even after the newcomers is however.
Add that to the fact they straight up ripped the X and Y model and gave it visual touchups shows that once again Jigglypuff only squeaked by because of being a copy-paste inclusion.
 

Ivander

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I think it sucks that Pac-Man content after the early eighties is completely ignored.
Pac-Man World? I mean, besides his design(which his Smash design was mainly based on, especially the softer eyebrows compared to the 80s version which had very skin-pointy eyebrows), Pac-Man's B-special is alot like his Dot throw from Pac-Man World, but instead of just dots, it uses all of the collectables you got in Pac-Man World, and his Side-special was based on how Pac-Man interacted with the pathway dots in Pac-Man World.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Pac-Man World? I mean, besides his design(which his Smash design was mainly based on, especially the softer eyebrows compared to the 80s version which had very skin-pointy eyebrows), Pac-Man's B-special is alot like his Dot throw from Pac-Man World, but instead of just dots, it uses all of the collectables you got in Pac-Man World, and his Side-special was based on how Pac-Man interacted with the pathway dots in Pac-Man World.
Up Air and the third hit of his jab are also basically the Kick Flip, but I think Sakurai calls his design the "Pac-Land design" despite missing the hat, and I think he considers both of those specials to be based on the arcade, if I remember right.

It really just feels like Pac-Man World erasure more than anything, between that and no music, plus his only Spirits from his series are himself, the Ghosts, Mother Fairy, TURN-TO-BLUE, and Bonus Fruit, rather than including characters like Toc-Man/Orson, Spooky, and Professor Pac.
 

SPEN18

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G&W and ROB are also in that section of that Dojo. Ness, too.

I can believe the low priority for characters like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit for sure since they didn't even get placed with their other series members, but saying all of Wario, G&W, ROB, Falco, Ganondorf (even with his derivative nature he's still THE MAIN VILLAIN OF ONE OF NINTENDO'S BIGGEST SERIES), and Ness were ALL low priority just because they were revealed late as unlockable characters is a weird way to think about the Dojo reveals imo.
Yes, I looked at all of them again to refresh my memory before posting. I stand by saying that G&W, ROB, and Ness were probably lower in priority. For those three, possibly not perilously low priority, i.e. to the point that they were in serious danger, but lower priority nonetheless. We already know that not being an active series was a significant disadvantage in 4 and that is what makes this standing make sense.
I already explained that Wario may have been pushed down by having a bunch of other Mario characters in front of him, Falco is a sidekick from a smaller series whose derivative status only makes things worse for him, and Ganondorf again probably wasn't too perilously low but it makes sense that he could've been added later.
In any case I wouldn't claim that the order is exactly the priority order; if you can wrap your head around most of them at least in a rough sense, it's not too hard to explain away the exceptions, which could be due to any number of things, even such as having technical issues or otherwise taking longer than expected. So again, you don't have to believe that all of them were low-priority; the argument makes sense if you simply accept it for a large number of them.

Maybe it's easier to look at the veterans who were revealed earlier. Most of them would clearly be above most of the ones who were revealed late.

A lot of the early reveals coincided with anniversary dates (albeit somewhat random and inconsistent ones in some cases), which possibly means the order of the early reveals is less indicative of priority, but in any case being revealed a certain number of months before the game's release would basically confirm that they were mid-priority at worst. Which narrows down who could've possibly been low. And besides they would have infinitely more flexibility in when to reveal characters who were ready to show very early-on.

One last thing: we already know that newcomers revealed late are typically the lower-priority ones. In Smash 4 we can see this with Bowser Jr and Duck Hunt. It's not unbelievable to suggest veterans could work similarly. Especially given the reality of development that not all characters are ready to show to the public at the same time, and that higher-priority ones are more likely to be ready to show earlier in the marketing cycle leading up to release.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Jigglypuff being unlockable in Smash For isn't indicative of being low priority.

Jigglypuff being the straight up LAST one in unlock order (on 3DS; Wii U has it as a starting fighter), even after the newcomers is however.
Add that to the fact they straight up ripped the X and Y model and gave it visual touchups shows that once again Jigglypuff only squeaked by because of being a copy-paste inclusion.
This is part of why I consider the priority being under "ease of creation"(or however you want to say it). Though it does help a bit that the previous Brawl data was brought into Smash 4 development, but yeah, I either forgot/wasn't aware of this. So that's two games then(though the context to why is still a bit of a mystery. Was it before or after the Clone Trio?)
 

Hadokeyblade

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Shadow generations giving him weird black arms powers probably means that if he were put in Smash he would probably be made his own character slot rather than a Sonic echo.

That's unfortinate because it probably means hes less likely to show up

What do you guys think of the Pac-Man content in Smash? :ultpacman:
I love how its more "Namco Museum" than "Pacman"
With the Namco arcade cameos in his taunt and the Namco arcade music selection. Its neat.

I just wish they brought back the GOOD pacman stage for Ultimate.
 

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Shadow generations giving him weird black arms powers probably means that if he were put in Smash he would probably be made his own character slot rather than a Sonic echo.

That's unfortinate because it probably means hes less likely to show up
It doesn't especially mean that. Dark Samus is still an echo fighter and it has equally wild, expressive abilities that go unrepresented.

I've always been more of the belief that Shadow would be a semiclone rather than a full echo, but this new development doesn't make him less practical of a clone character. He still plays identically to Sonic in several other games. Not saying he NEEDS to be a clone mind you, just that it's about as likely as it ever was.
 

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Wait, does this mean the Mario Wonder spirits are liable to return? I STILL haven't collected the Flowers spirit.
Yeah; that's how spirit events worked previously. (they'd be added to the regular rotation after enough time had passed) Though if I recall correctly, the Mario Wonder and Super Princess Peach event was the last spirit event, so they'll be saved for the end. (after the Pokemon Scarlet/Violet and the trio of third party spirits are added in)
 
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Super Devon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
148
Location
Crystal, MN
NNID
MarioSonicman14
Switch FC
SW-0999-5855-7663
Jigglypuff being unlockable in Smash For isn't indicative of being low priority.

Jigglypuff being the straight up LAST one in unlock order (on 3DS; Wii U has it as a starting fighter), even after the newcomers is however.
Add that to the fact they straight up ripped the X and Y model and gave it visual touchups shows that once again Jigglypuff only squeaked by because of being a copy-paste inclusion.
To add to this, Jigglypuff was one of three characters that were almost cut from Brawl, which is why Jigglypuff was one of the last characters to unlock in that game, as well as being unlockable through post-game subspace.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2023
Messages
473
Losing Lucas would sting a lot to me. Not only Mother 3 is one of my favorite games ever, but Lucas is the character that really made me fall in love with "serious" Smash in general and with quirky zoners in particular.

Overall I'm not too optimistic about his chances, but hey he's already come back from the grave once. Due to a variety of reasons, it was probably really just between him and Wolf as far as cut Brawl characters were concerned for Smash 4 DLC, but even then, if Lucas himself wasn't actually a valuable character I doubt they would have brought him back outside of an EiH situation.
 
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