Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

If they were pulling from Gen 9, what would you guys think about them swapping out trainers in addition to adding a new character from Pokémon Scrarlet/Violet. Like, let's say we get Koraidon/Miraidon (or something), and Lucas/Dawn as the Pokémon Trainer with Tirtwig, Monferno, and Empoleon* as newcomers under their umbrella. Charizard would, of course, be added solo.

*It's a difficult call to make as to which Pokémon to pick of the nine options. Infernape and Piplup are pretty obvious inclusions, but that means you'd also have to do Grottle, who would be a bit of a challenge to implement. You could go with Turtwig, but then you'd have Prinplup, who is very unpopular. Turtwig, Monferno, and Empoleon seems like the best balance of popularity and functionality to me.

I don’t really think we need another trainer but I’d be okay with it. I’d rather they just focus on individual Pokémon. If they were going to do another trainer, I think I’d want them to play differently than the current trainer just to differentiate them. I’ve always liked the idea of a summoner style moveset like Yuna in Dissidia. That would only work for very specific trainers but it could be fun.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

If they were pulling from Gen 9, what would you guys think about them swapping out trainers in addition to adding a new character from Pokémon Scrarlet/Violet. Like, let's say we get Koraidon/Miraidon (or something), and Lucas/Dawn as the Pokémon Trainer with Tirtwig, Monferno, and Empoleon* as newcomers under their umbrella. Charizard would, of course, be added solo.

*It's a difficult call to make as to which Pokémon to pick of the nine options. Infernape and Piplup are pretty obvious inclusions, but that means you'd also have to do Grottle, who would be a bit of a challenge to implement. You could go with Turtwig, but then you'd have Prinplup, who is very unpopular. Turtwig, Monferno, and Empoleon seems like the best balance of popularity and functionality to me.

I would rather just add Ogerpon and call it a day, but I'm also biased against Gen 4 because it's slow, riddled with HMs, BDSP did nothing to alleviate its issues due to being a "faithful" remake, and Lucario is like my least favorite Pokemon on the roster right now lmao

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Personally, I'd rather them just go ahead and bring Gen 1 Pokemon Trainer back in this instance instead of developing three (and with a Gen 9/10 pick, four) brand new Pokemon characters with time and resources that could be distributed elsewhere. In Brawl was one thing but that feels a lot less defensible now, in my opinion. Particularly when many veteran Pokemon are already quite popular and would be disappointing losses in the wake of this new content. We're likely going to lose a few already, we don't need to create a scenario where we have to outright lose most of them to make space.

My main reason for considering a new trainer is because the current trainer already monopolizes the available spots. I really don't think you can cut the trainer altogether, but we're losing most of the other veterans to keep Squirtle and Ivysaur around, of which most people don't seem to really care much for (or at least they didn't back in the SSB4 days).

My other idea would be a customizable trainer that can put any of the playable Pokémon on their team, but that comes with its own problems like balancing (the trainer versions would have to have less complete tool kits and they wouldn't have down specials anymore), and cohesion.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I would agree with this if it hadn't already happened before in Smash 4. And Smash 4 didn't even have to worry about cutting back after something like Everyone is Here, Lucas just... didn't make it into the base game.

But he still made it in, as he very well couldn't have made it in at all as Mother 3 still has not been released worldwide. Roy and Mewtwo, also veterans returning as DLC, were completely missing in the previous game, and then Wolf, a character that first appeared in the previous game, was completely missing in that game. So for a character that wouldn't have made it in if Sakurai knew Mother 3 wasn't being localized, Lucas had it pretty good. But I gotta say, keeping Lucas now would probably be a well worth tribute to Iwata at this point.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

My main reason for considering a new trainer is because the current trainer already monopolizes the available spots. I really don't think you can cut the trainer altogether, but we're losing most of the other veterans to keep Squirtle and Ivysaur around, of which most people don't seem to really care much for (or at least they didn't back in the SSB4 days).

Even if this is the case, I don't think the solution is to cut Squirtle and Ivysaur to add 3 NEW Pokemon on a new Trainer and keep Charizard. That would just monopolize the slots even more, no? At the very least it would certainly be more work, and if we're cutting Pokemon's numbers down, then just Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, and this new Gen 4 trainer is already 6 Pokemon, let alone a Gen 9 Pokemon to make it 7 while losing Greninja despite Legends Z-A coming next year.

EDIT: By monopolize in this case, I mean you'd pretty much just be splitting the series between Gen 1 and Gen 4, since otherwise we just have Greninja and Incineroar because Pichu coming back has a snowball's chance in heck.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

At the very least it would certainly be more work, and if we're cutting Pokemon's numbers down, then just Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, and this new Gen 4 trainer is already 6 Pokemon

That I did not consider. Yeah, best we didn't do that.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Is that basically Persona 5’s musical style? I did like a lot of music from that game, particularly the songs with a bit of a rock influence mixed in like in Scramble.

I don’t really know enough about music to really name many specific genres or styles but my favorite band is Evanescence. It would be cool to have something in that general style for an opening. I mostly listen to video game and anime soundtracks so my opinion on music probably doesn’t count for much lol.

I always thought this fan video of a Fall Out Boy song actually made for a pretty cool Smash opening:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

Persona 5 is more like acid jazz which is basically funky.
Actual jazz fusion is one of the most complex and difficult (even to listen to) genres out there. More like late Coltrane or Pharoah Sanders.

EDIT: My bad, mixed up stuff from when I was exploring jazz. Coltrane and Sanders are free jazz, jazz fusion is yeah funky-infused jazz. More complex than acid jazz but you can see It as a precursor of it.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

But he still made it in, as he very well couldn't have made it in at all.

Which is why I said he might come back as DLC just like he did in 4, but it depends on which characters get cut and where the priorities end up.

Like don't get me wrong, I like Lucas, he just has a precedent because of Smash 4, and because of that I wouldn't be surprised if he got cut again.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To correct something; Jigglypuff was in the project plan for Brawl. It almost was cut, but was intended to be in. The entire roster was planned from the start, including the Forbidden 7.

Sonic suddenly being approved late into development is what caused a lot of crazy issues and such. That said, that doesn't mean Jigglypuff would've made it in if Sonic was approved from the start. It could've been low priority and we would've seen Mewtwo back instead. The fact it was easy to make(just like Toon Link and Wolf) meant it was going to get in over Mewtwo due to a unique circumstance. Remove that circumstance, and things could've been different. That said, with how easy it is to make, it was probably not going to be cut even then. The circumstance is the only time we saw it being a last minute development(not last minute to the project plan, which is different) outside of 64's actual last minute characters(added to the plan later).

 

[Louie G.]

Mother 3 is my favorite game, but it's just beneficial for me to accept that Mother representation in Smash is a string of good fortune and that Lucas is one of the luckiest inclusions in Smash history. His game has not been localized and to our knowledge there are no plans to do so, his series is inactive / complete and he is remarkably similar to a character near guaranteed to take priority. Seeing how some of the first to go have historically been derivative characters and secondary picks from less active series, Lucas is primed to be expendable. Which hurts my heart, but I'm just happy we got this far.

But I gotta say, keeping Lucas now would probably be a well worth tribute to Iwata at this point.

I know you don't mean harm by it, but I don't think this is a healthy thing to attribute to any specific character. Lucas can remind us of Iwata's great contributions to some beloved games and series, but he's not the only one. Earthbound, Pokemon, the Balloon Fight stage, the very existence of Smash itself. He's had fundamental roles in dozens of important games for the company, and it's not as if he created Mother 3 himself. So I don't think suggesting Lucas in particular stands as a homage to Iwata is very convincing.

 

[Borskaboska]

I don't really think they should add a second trainer, especially if they are keeping gen 1 trainer. Though if they did, I've always thought gen 3 would be the best pick (Blaziken, Grovile, Mudkip). Most gens have good final stages, but almost all of them have at least one dud of a middle stage.

Personally instead of adding another trainer, they should just make character switching a core mechanic where you can select multiple characters from the title screen and switch between them mid match.

 

[SPEN18]

I feel like Puff's ease of development may be a bit overstated. Yes, it's easier to animate than most other characters due to its simple body type, but this isn't a clone character by any means; it has a fully unique moveset. Everything else in balancing and implementing is likely on par with any other character.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I know you don't mean harm by it, but I don't think this is a healthy thing to attribute to any specific character. Lucas can remind us of Iwata's great contributions to some beloved games and series, but he's not the only one. Earthbound, Pokemon, the Balloon Fight stage, the very existence of Smash itself. He's had fundamental roles in dozens of important games for the company, and it's not as if he created Mother 3 himself. So I don't think suggesting Lucas in particular stands as a homage to Iwata is very convincing.

So what if he's not the only one? It sure wouldn't hurt to add more of what Iwata had contributed to, especially when it's a game that many people have grown attached to, like Mother 3 and from a series like Earthbound. Like I said, it's a pretty special series.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I think Puff will stick around because she's a legacy character who's playstyle is important as the defintiive air character who forces you to understand how to correctly use aerials and manage spacing with your movement options. I can understand the angle of people prioritisng legacy too much over new faces and I get it, but it's also like, every fighting game series has a strong cast of legacy characters who always come back in some form because their iconic to the franchise and their playstyles are important to fans. Dhalsim and Blanka are annoying to fight against, but they keep coming back every Street Fighter game. Jigglypuff is one of the characters in Smash who sticks around more due to her connection to Smash itself than her outside prominence, but I would say the fact that she's stuck around for every game proves she can hang on her own merits.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So what if he's not the only one? It sure wouldn't hurt to add more of what Iwata had contributed to, especially when it's a game that many people have grown attached to, like Mother 3 and from a series like Earthbound. Like I said, it's a pretty special series.

I mean even then, Earthbound fits that more than Mother 3 does. Iwata saved Earthbound from getting cancelled in the 90s, sort of like how he helped with Pokemon Gold and Silver, and while he was a producer on the original version of Mother 3 on the N64DD alongside Miyamoto, that version was cancelled (and Iwata himself said it was only like 30% done too, I believe) and he was simply executive producer on the version everyone knows, since he became the President before that game was finished. I don't know if there are interviews or anything saying he played a bigger part than that, but that's just what I found.

So really, if anything, Ness represents that legacy more than Lucas does, at least in my mind.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Jigglypuff is pretty darn safe unless the roster is gutted.

It's hard to think of a reality where she'd be gone.

 

[Noipoi]

Jigglypuff has 64 seniority.

She’s fine

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel like Puff's ease of development may be a bit overstated. Yes, it's easier to animate than most other characters due to its simple body type, but this isn't a clone character by any means; it has a fully unique moveset. Everything else in balancing and implementing is likely on par with any other character.

Wolf was still harder, and Toon Link was most likely harder than Jigglypuff(who at least could reuse multiple Melee animations that Toon Link could not). The point was that it was still easy to make compared to someone like Mewtwo, only comparing it to the other two last developed characters.

That's why it got in over Mewtwo. It was simply easier to work on. It's "fairly unique" doesn't mean it doesn't use a very clear base and has a lot of work done. Wolf, despite being pretty unique, had 70% of the assets done. Toon Link borrowed heavily from Young Link and regular Link. Jigglypuff already had mostly the same moveset from Melee, and wasn't a remodified character, so yes, it was really easy to return. It's only 64 that would've required the most work. Every game otherwise already has a pre-existing character who isn't hard to remake and still uses a base character in Kirby to directly reuse some assets for saving time.

Though that's also why I noted that it wasn't a case of "wasn't on the roster" in a previous post. Jigglypuff is often considered low priority but still makes it in(however, it's kind of awkward since Brawl was the only time it was likely to be cut, but was still planned for the roster). Low priority might not even be an accurate statement at this point, since we haven't seen a case where it wasn't planned from the start outside of its debut game. That's kind of notable. Mewtwo isn't any different, as it was planned for Brawl anyway. The best we know is that if push came to shove, Jigglypuff apparently may make it in over some other Pokemon. But we lack sufficient context in why that applies to every single Pokemon cut. Was Pichu cut cause of low priority? Unpopularity? Replaced by Plusle & Minun as a promotional idea? Etc. Jigglypuff never lacked popularity either, so it's easy to see why it tends to stay. Besides being an easier character to remake(with ported over stuff from both Kirby and the previous Smash game).

 

[Deleted member]

I don't expect they’ll cut Lucas in the next game but Mother’s presence in Smash is probably only going to shrink from this point on. The series is finished.

I can see Lucas getting cut, but i don't think the series content has to necesarily shrink outside of that.
There's still many locations they can turn into stages, there's still many characters or even enemies they can put into AT and even items they can turn into items from the Mother series. This series has still a lot of new content to offer.

 

[RileyXY1]

I can see Lucas getting cut, but i don't think the series content has to necesarily shrink outside of that.
There's still many locations they can turn into stages, there's still many characters or even enemies they can put into AT and even items they can turn into items from the Mother series. This series has still a lot of new content to offer.

Yeah. Earthbound is lucky to have the amount of content it has, with only three games and the last one coming out in 2006. Right now it has two characters, four stages, two Assist Trophies, three items, and a crapton of Spirits and music tracks.

 

[Will]

The conversation of randomly axing Lucas specifically just to bring him back as DLC a second time helped me realize how boring the DLC speculation would be if Everyone Isn’t Here. Especially if it’s first-party cuts.

I can see it now.

Pages and pages of arguing if Corrin can make a comeback as DLC will be so fun!

 

[Speed Weed]

So what if he's not the only one? It sure wouldn't hurt to add more of what Iwata had contributed to, especially when it's a game that many people have grown attached to, like Mother 3 and from a series like Earthbound. Like I said, it's a pretty special series.

Stop using a real guy's death to argue for including characters in the funny baby party fighting game

 

[Wonder Smash]

I mean even then, Earthbound fits that more than Mother 3 does. Iwata saved Earthbound from getting cancelled in the 90s, sort of like how he helped with Pokemon Gold and Silver, and while he was a producer on the original version of Mother 3 on the N64DD alongside Miyamoto, that version was cancelled (and Iwata himself said it was only like 30% done too, I believe) and he was simply executive producer on the version everyone knows, since he became the President before that game was finished. I don't know if there are interviews or anything saying he played a bigger part than that, but that's just what I found.

So really, if anything, Ness represents that legacy more than Lucas does, at least in my mind.

All this shows how involved Iwata was in the game, even if it went to another console in the end. So it doesn't mean Lucas can't still be a tribute, even if Ness is already there. It just adds another one to it.

I just don't see any reason for them to cut Lucas when he's already had this much exposure and even awareness of his game even when it's not released outside of Japan.

Stop using a real guy's death to argue for including characters in the funny baby party fighting game

...

Saying that a company can pay tribute to an important person in the gaming industry (which is not new in video games) in a series that he was also involved in is "using his death"? What kind of nonsense is this?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lucas is just a fictional character. Using someone's death to push a character's merits is in very bad taste. Let's please stop.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The conversation of randomly axing Lucas specifically just to bring him back as DLC a second time helped me realize how boring the DLC speculation would be if Everyone Isn’t Here. Especially if it’s first-party cuts.

I can see it now.

Pages and pages of arguing if Corrin can make a comeback as DLC will be so fun!

And that's just the characters people would predict not coming back at all! Just think about how many more pages will be spent arguing about Wolf!

or Mewtwo!

or Rosalina & Luma!

 

[Wonder Smash]

Both of you take back what you said.

Don't ever falsely accuse me of using someone's death ever again. I've never done anything like that.

I'm sticking to what I'm saying and I'm not going to let some liars change that. Lucas would a possible tribute to Iwata.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Don't ever say ever falsely accuse me of using someone's death ever again. I've never done anything like that.

Judging by this I'm sure it's not what's intended, but suggesting that content be added to pay tribute to a dead man rubs people the wrong way, as if you're using that death to justify the inclusion in the first place.

 

[Slime Scholar]

I can see Lucas getting cut, but i don't think the series content has to necesarily shrink outside of that.
There's still many locations they can turn into stages, there's still many characters or even enemies they can put into AT and even items they can turn into items from the Mother series. This series has still a lot of new content to offer.

imo there is a glut of stages in Ultimate and they won’t all keep coming back forever either. Would they really make more new ones without also cutting older ones?

I figured Lucas was more-safe-than-not as a fighter because popular demand already brought him back once, but entirely new Mother content is another story. I could definitely see more ATs though— the Smash sequels seem to rotate those.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

imo there is a glut of stages in Ultimate and they won’t all keep coming back forever either. Would they really make more new ones without also cutting older ones?

I figured Lucas was more-safe-than-not as a fighter because popular demand already brought him back once, but entirely new Mother content is another story. I could definitely see more ATs though— the Smash sequels seem to rotate those.

If Lucas does come back, I could see a lot of locations getting stages maybe. After all, the only location from Mother 3 that's been a stage so far is New Pork City, which is in like the last act of that game, so you could do something like Tazmily Village, Mt. Oriander, Thunder Tower, or Saturn Valley for a nice recurring location like how Smash 4 added Magicant, a recurring location in the first two games.

EDIT: Heck, even if Lucas doesn't come back, I could see them using locations from 3 for stages, and Saturn Valley is in Earthbound too, so that one's fair game either way.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Judging by this I'm sure it's not what's intended, but suggesting that content be added to pay tribute to a dead man rubs people the wrong way, as if you're using that death to justify the inclusion in the first place.

It didn't rub anybody the wrong way. They just decided to twist my words like they always do, because they get a thrill out of that. It's very immature. Verde wasn't even thinking that until Speed Weed came up with that mess.

You'd probably have a point if that was the only reason I had and was pushing it like it should be a priority when in reality, it was just one of the ideas I just thought up. Like I said, tributes are nothing new in video games. BotW and TofK payed tributes to Iwata, and so did the SMB movie, so who knows?

Now here I am, just with an idea of Lucas being a possible tribute and I get accused of "using someone's death" to argue for a character that is not even one of my favorites? You've got to be insane to be thinking like that. I mean, heck, I even mentioned possibly paying tribute to Akira Toriyama:

Official - Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Imagine if this was somehow official and we lived in that timeline or even JUST this in Smash 64 Mario and Sonic in a game during THAT time? Can you imagine people's reaction to that?

smashboards.com

Notice how nobody accused me of using someone's death to add more content then? That's because it was clear that I wasn't. It was just an idea. So don't make excuses for them!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

For Earthbound stages, I really love the idea of SSF2's Devil's Machine stage. I just wish it wasn't a huge, flat, empty stage with no hazards, and walk-offs. They knocked it out of the park in the atmosphere department though.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Getting bad memories of how Balloon Fighter support popped up during Ultimate's speculation....

As well as Lolo but that was only by a certain false prophet.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Speaking of stages, I really hope next Smash is back to mostly new stages. I love the stages the series has had so far, but Ultimate at launch only had four new stages that weren't different looks for a Smash original stage, and those were New Donk City Hall, Plateau Tower, Moray Towers, and Dracula's Castle. This worked fine for Ultimate as a big showing of the series' history alongside every character coming back, but I didn't like that Smash 4 did a lot of this too, with ratios of 30 new to 12 returning on 3DS, and 34 new to 21 returning on Wii U.

I personally much prefer Melee and Brawl's style of mostly new stages with a small handful of old ones as extras, and it doesn't help that since 4 had 33 returning stages and most of the new ones also came back for Ultimate, it feels kinda like how I've been racing a lot of the same tracks in Mario Kart 8 for like 10 years.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, them remaking all the stages from scratch didn't help matters. Us getting less wasn't that surprising. I'm not sure what the reason was for this decision, but anyway, I hope for more variety. There's other n64 stages never reused(and some like Meta Crystal don't even have a remake in the same way Corneria is for Sector Z as an excuse) too, so they'd be nice.

I'd have to loved to see all stages return, though. Just some should have their gimmicks reworked, and it's completely fine if they aren't compatible with Stage Morph. Notably, even some of the Final Destinations do overall play differently due to minor changes, but we already have that as a Mode/Option, so they're the only ones legitimately redundant to return previous versions of. Stuff like the N64 stages have minor differences, though I completely get why it's not enough to justify a return. That, and Sector Z, for instance, is rather big as a stage. We've had enough issues with Palutena's Temple(I would love to see this reworked, maybe as a transitioning stage so it won't be so massive? Like, it makes Temple look small. And that's hoo boy).

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honestly, them remaking all the stages from scratch didn't help matters. Us getting less wasn't that surprising. I'm not sure what the reason was for this decision, but anyway, I hope for more variety. There's other n64 stages never reused(and some like Meta Crystal don't even have a remake in the same way Corneria is for Sector Z as an excuse) too, so they'd be nice.

I think remaking the old stages was fine for Ultimate as a true sort of Everyone is Here deal, I just wish they had gone all in with it and brought back EVERY stage, since they only missed like 15 of them from throughout the series lol

I guess I'm mostly just hoping the ratio next game is more like Melee and Brawl and less like Wii U that was getting dangerously close to that 50/50 split with the 34/21 it had.

 

[Perkilator]

Assuming the next system is backwards compatible (hence Ultimate would be playable on it), I wonder if the next game’s returning stages would purely consist of those that didn’t return in Ultimate.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think remaking the old stages was fine for Ultimate as a true sort of Everyone is Here deal, I just wish they had gone all in with it and brought back EVERY stage, since they only missed like 15 of them from throughout the series lol

I guess I'm mostly just hoping the ratio next game is more like Melee and Brawl and less like Wii U that was getting dangerously close to that 50/50 split with the 34/21 it had.

Worst part is only a tiny few were "nearly redundant" at best. Like, I get Sector Z, but Planet Zebes is far more different from Brinstar. Also, we didn't get the original Mute City, just the remake, I think?

If it was just reusing assets to help port them over, it would make sense we wouldn't get that much from past games. But other than some gimmicks not being too usable with Stage Morph or just a gimmick not working(and a few redundant stages), we don't know why they chose what they chose. And it's still just an educated guess.

But yeah, agreed. It would've been nice. Especially, as I said above, not worrying if some don't fit the original gimmicks. That said, how many were specific gimmicks that only worked with a particular type of system, like Pac-Maze was catered to the 3DS??

 

[superprincess]

Assuming the next system is backwards compatible (hence Ultimate would be playable on it), I wonder if the next game’s returning stages would purely consist of those that didn’t return in Ultimate.

No chance. Can you imagine a Smash game without Dream Land, Temple, Corneria and Delfino Plaza to name a few? I can't.

Out of the stages that didn't return in Ultimate, the only worthwhile ones are just Rainbow Road and Pac Maze imo. Even Pac Maze is a bit iffy because it relied on every player having their own screen. I can't imagine that set of stages making up the returning stage list for SSB6.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'll forever be annoyed Melee Mute City didn't return as it was a solid stage and differed enough from the SNES version to warrant an inclusion in Ultimate.

 

[Perkilator]

I'll forever be annoyed Melee Mute City didn't return as it was a solid stage and differed enough from the SNES version to warrant an inclusion in Ultimate.

Not to mention, they could probably reuse assets from Mario Kart 8 (which, NGL, I wish they did for Big Blue. Along with including the Mario Kart 8 renditions of the Mute City and Big Blue songs).