Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Yamat08]

No, Richter is probably the most popular Belmont. Anybody who's played Symphony of the Night, one of the most popular Castlevania games, knows who Richter is. Rondo of Blood also got a remake for the PSP that also had Symphony of the Night packaged alongside it. And it also helps that the next part of the Castlevania Netflix series is featuring Richter.

Simon is well known, but mostly because he is the "first" Belmont, especially among older Nintendo fans where he was the Belmont from the first Castlevania, Simon's Quest and Super Castlevania IV, and has also been quite a part of crossovers, like Captain N, Castlevania Judgment, etc. But among Castlevania fans, Richter is probably the most popular and well known Belmont with how popular Symphony of the Night is.

Edit: Also the other reason Richter is popular...."DIE MONSTER! YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS WORLD!" Seriously, that intro gets quoted so much.

Don't forget about Castlevania: Dracula X. Though, I never followed the Castlevania franchise much over the years, so I can't say how well-known that one is (I seem to hear about it a lot less than even the infamous N64 titles, let alone the likes of Symphony of the Night).

 

[Will]

Dixie doesn't use the moves Diddy does, Smash especially took care of the roll attacks being rightly implemented, and Dixie was never much of the acrobatics and brawn like the other Kongs. Physical attacks are mostly done by her hair, even Tiny Kong in DK64 followed that example. Dixie wouldn't be a Echo at all therefore.

She would need a Up B that's different from what DK does with Spinning Kong too, it wouldn't let her fall in free fall that quickly.

I agree to an extent, it should be different somewhat. Though we can spit any type of hypothetical for how her recovery should work in the game, but it doesn't change the fact that it's been done before.

Also, Dixie's model isn't like Diddy's, she lacks a tail, and her hair grab would need its own hitbox. They didn't make Isabelle a Villager Echo because the models didn't match, so why would they with Dixie?

Oh no, 5% of Diddy's body doesn't match the 95% perfect match of the rest of Dixie's. Whatever are we gonna do?

And if she'd be a Echo, why would they opt for Dark Samus instead of her ? Dark Samus didn't make an appearance for many years, is canonically dead, won't ever return to the franchise, whilst Dixie had a very popular returning role in Tropical Freeze. So logically speaking, Dixie would've been picked as Echo then before Dark Samus. She also had way more fan support.

You putting Smash and "logically thinking" in the same sentence like they have ever actually gone together when it comes to the character creation process.

Why did they make DS an Echo? I assume most likely because they've already had her assets from the previous game, such as Chrom, and it made the conversion process even easier to complete. Dixie doesn't even have a 3D Model outside of trophies from previous games, and even then, those models are straight rips from older titles. Though this is my own take on the subject though. Until there's an official answer on why she was included... who cares really? I like her being in the game. She's definitely proving a lot of points.

If Dixie Kong was so beloved and supported to the point where not treating her playstyle 100% true to every character trait she had would be criminal and create massive outrage, you'd think she'd be in like... two games ago, don't you? Maybe in 2008 she could've been like the Lucas to her Diddy.

It isn't unnecessarily being hostile, it's just plain ignorant to assume Dixie would be a Echo. It would strip her of all her unique qualities.

You walked into that one man, I don't know what to tell you.​

Not even Dr.Mario is considered an Echo. Dixie would need statistics different from Diddy too, as their mechanics where drastically different in DKC2.

Dr. Mario has different weight properties and attack power. Echoes are SSB4-era and beyond. You're making comparisons that cannot exist.

I swear this argument takes me back to the pre-Brawl days where people argued Diddy would be a DK clone. It's almost in the same league here to me.

You're being sarcastic, right? There's no way you're actually comparing it like that?

I hope you know none of this is saying Dixie Kong's fate is sealed, but I'm saying her being an Echo is a most-likely case and it being impossible is an absurd claim. You have to be ignorant beyond belief to not see that they could do it.

 

[Ivander]

Don't forget about Castlevania: Dracula X. Though, I never followed the Castlevania franchise much over the years, so I can't say how well-known that one is (I seem to hear about it a lot less than even the infamous N64 titles, let alone the likes of Symphony of the Night).

Dracula X for the SNES is known for being a more watered-down/linear Rondo of Blood that is balls hard, especially for the final battle where it's against Dracula, but every attack he does has an easy possibility of sending you down a death pit.

As for how known it is, I don't really see it mentioned aside from when people talk about it being the only frame of reference past Castlevania players have in regards to Richter's appearances in NA before Symphony of the Night since Rondo of Blood never released outside of Japan.

Edit: Just in case we are talking about Dracula X Chronicles, that game is a remake of the original Rondo of Blood that was released outside of Japan. And it came with both the original Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night alongside it. And the remake itself was quite good.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ultimate's the only one where the clones/echoes/etc. weren't last minute anyway. The base roster was decided in 2015(bar Plant at best).

This might be part of why the Echo name was created, since it was something decided early on.

Anyway, as long as the bodyshape is the same, I'm good with an Echo. Dixie, Shadow, etc. Doesn't bother me. I'm just glad they're there. Only thing I ask is they're slightly made unique(basically, like Dark Pit, Lucina, and Chrom are. Ken is more of an outlier. Dark Samus might also count to some degree, having no fire moves but having electricity moves. Richter's holy water difference is... uhhh... meh. Daisy has literally just a few different hurtboxes. Either way, these last 3 need to be more fleshed out).

 

[Sucumbio]

Ultimate's the only one where the clones/echoes/etc. weren't last minute anyway. The base roster was decided in 2015(bar Plant at best).

This might be part of why the Echo name was created, since it was something decided early on.

Anyway, as long as the bodyshape is the same, I'm good with an Echo. Dixie, Shadow, etc. Doesn't bother me. I'm just glad they're there. Only thing I ask is they're slightly made unique(basically, like Dark Pit, Lucina, and Chrom are. Ken is more of an outlier. Dark Samus might also count to some degree, having no fire moves but having electricity moves. Richter's holy water difference is... uhhh... meh. Daisy has literally just a few different hurtboxes. Either way, these last 3 need to be more fleshed out).

Agreed. Dark Samus' moves should be reworked to include more elements from the fights in the Prime games so like, a "shrapnel" or scatter shot, the thinner charge beam, a boost ball attack! ... I'd even give her a counter where she does a witch-time -esque flip like during the final encounter in prime 3 (the slow motion effect when she splits into echoes is so awesome looking).

Daisy needs more unique moves but I'm afraid I have no clue what lol

I think the Belmonts need some more work. Richter seems good but Simon for some reason feels like the clone.... But his source material is kind of bland unless you add in maybe the Diamond from Simon's Quest or something like that...

I still feel Lucina is a rip off because she's a copy of Marth with all of his strength and none of his weaknesses. Meh. I'm just salty over how Marth got done kinda dirty I guess...

Chrom is.. weird. Lol.

 

[Geno Boost]

Daisy should be more unique and have some actual Mario Land references

 

[Megadoomer]

Who do you guys see as the most likely echo fighters for the next game?

I'd honestly be surprised if Octoling wasn't in the next Smash game.

(as much as I'd like to see Jeanne as a Bayonetta echo fighter, or either Tails or Metal Sonic as a Sonic echo fighter, third party content in general is kind of up in the air at the moment, even if I figure that Sega content is extremely likely regardless)

 

[Chuderz]

Speaking of a Star Fox game I did get the complete package of Starlink on Switch on sale a couple of weeks ago.

Wow what a proof of concept for the series. Make the Lylat system "open-world" and thus allow the player to traverse through the solar system in any order they want after the initial start. Include specific character campaigns for each pilot. Bring back Krystal and the two other gals from Star Fox 2 as either their own team or the female half to Star Fox (bench Peppy with ROB) and maybe even include player Star Wolf missions Halo 2 style. Customize ships and maybe include a multiplayer with air battles, racing (Star Fox GP anyone?) and even the old school pilot gunner battles that could function as a spiritual successor to Custom Robo if they allowed you to modify your armor to have different stats to go with unique character-specific traits. Traveling between the planets should harken back to the rail shooter roots but I think it should mostly get left behind other than that in favor of the open-system model. Finally let the player leave the ship to go through towns/cities on each planet that collecting gear, cosmetics for your ship, side-quests and homebase (hub) upgrades. Hopefully fully voice acted throughout to really sell the audience on the Star Fox series' inherent charm.

Seriously impressed with it despite the usual Ubisoft blandness. If the game was made as the most ambitious Star Fox game from the start (as I've imagined) then I think the future of the series could be a very prosperous one. Miyamoto has said he really wants Star Fox to be bigger than it is but Zero isn't how you do it. Starlink isn't exactly it either through no real fault of its own but it's a perfect starting point to get there.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Daisy is fine the way she is, Ken is perfect as an echo, Chrom is cool enough, the Belmonts should’ve just been skins of a bunch of Bemonts, Lucina and Dark Pit are fine additions just because that was the best way to get them in. The one that really got robbed was Dark Samus but even then I don’t imagine her getting in without being an echo.

All in all Echoes were always just meant to fill out the roster and we got a lot of characters with that that we likely wouldn’t have gotten otherwise

 

[Dinoman96]

I think the resistance towards Dixie being an echo while Dark Samus is okay as one is merely because Dixie at least still has a chance of appearing in future DK games. I think most people were more acceptant of DS being an echo because for all intents and purposes, she's pretty much completely dead and buried in her own IP, unless Tanabe goes back on his word here.

So it was either being an echo or going back into the assist trophy closet with other dead characters like Isaac and Takamaru and such. At least Dixie's future is a bit more open.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I don't think we'll know until then. I mean, we were all saying Shadow was very likely to be an Echo Fighter and that didn't happen.

As for returning ones, they all seem pretty likely since they hardly take any time at all, although Ken depends on Ryu while Richter could either be made the main Belmont or comes back alongside Simon.

Richter is not coming back without Simon. That's for sure.

No, Richter is probably the most popular Belmont. Anybody who's played Symphony of the Night, one of the most popular Castlevania games, knows who Richter is. Rondo of Blood also got a remake for the PSP that also had Symphony of the Night packaged alongside it. And it also helps that the next part of the Castlevania Netflix series is featuring Richter.

Simon is well known, but mostly because he is the "first" Belmont, especially among older Nintendo fans where he was the Belmont from the first Castlevania, Simon's Quest and Super Castlevania IV, and has also been quite a part of crossovers, like Captain N, Castlevania Judgment, etc. But among Castlevania fans, Richter is probably the most popular and well known Belmont with how popular Symphony of the Night is.

Edit: Also the other reason Richter is popular...."DIE MONSTER! YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS WORLD!" Seriously, that intro gets quoted so much.

All this really isn't convincing that Richter could be made the main Belmont. Aside from all those other things you just mentioned, Simon also did really well in the ballot, according to Sakurai, and he had been a popular talk among Smash fans for years leading up to his appearance in Ultimate. So he's definitely here to stay.

 

[ZelDan]

As someone who supports Dixie Kong making it into Smash, I really wouldn't be upset with Dixie getting the echo treatment as long as she gets the treatment and gets DK's up B and she uses her hair there.

Dixie being an echo really wouldn't be any worse than what happened to Dark Samus.

 

[Simnm]

Daisy is fine the way she is, Ken is perfect as an echo, Chrom is cool enough, the Belmonts should’ve just been skins of a bunch of Bemonts, Lucina and Dark Pit are fine additions just because that was the best way to get them in. The one that really got robbed was Dark Samus but even then I don’t imagine her getting in without being an echo.

All in all Echoes were always just meant to fill out the roster and we got a lot of characters with that that we likely wouldn’t have gotten otherwise

I disagree with daisy personally its very uncharacteristic for her to have float,turnips and toad counter since she dosent even originate in the mushroom kingdom

 

[DarthEnderX]

Who do you guys see as the most likely echo fighters for the next game?

Shadow and Octolings.

Ones I WANT though?

10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]
82e. Roxas [Kingdom Hearts]

Dracula X for the SNES is known for being a more watered-down/linear Rondo of Blood that is balls hard, especially for the final battle where it's against Dracula, but every attack he does has an easy possibility of sending you down a death pit.

Realtalk though? I still like it more than Super Castlevania IV. I prefer the way it plays. And it looks and sounds way better.

Aside from all those other things you just mentioned, Simon also did really well in the ballot, according to Sakurai, and he had been a popular talk among Smash fans for years leading up to his appearance in Ultimate. So he's definitely here to stay.

You can't break up the Captain N gang!

 

[Will]

As someone who supports Dixie Kong making it into Smash, I really wouldn't be upset with Dixie getting the echo treatment as long as she gets the treatment and gets DK's up B and she uses her hair there.

Dixie being an echo really wouldn't be any worse than what happened to Dark Samus.

I think some moves can convert well from Diddy's, but by using her hair, you know? Using her hair instead of Diddy's hands for her F-Smash or something like that. Same damage, just a different look for visual flair. Ken's got stuff like that.

Also I think the idea of Dixie Kong's D-Air also being her hair is funny. I want to see her hair whip someone down like-

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ah yes, Dark Samus, who's canonically not literally a clone of Samus, doesn't have the name Samus in her anywhere, and has just about 0,00% chance of returning to Metroid ever ?

Yes she has abilities of her own, but she's not a majorly requested character as Dixie is, Dixie is often called one of the most ominous characters to Ultimate, Dark Samus really wouldn't be missed if she wasn't included especially with Ridley there.

In short: she's a literal extra low effort character.

I agree to an extent, it should be different somewhat. Though we can spit any type of hypothetical for how her recovery should work in the game, but it doesn't change the fact that it's been done before.

It has been done before, yet the Up B's of Ike and Chrom are meant to be similar, Dixie's shouldn't work the same way as DK's does.

Oh no, 5% of Diddy's body doesn't match the 95% perfect match of the rest of Dixie's. Whatever are we gonna do?

Not make her a Echo.

It was enough for Isabelle.

You putting Smash and "logically thinking" in the same sentence like they have ever actually gone together when it comes to the character creation process.

Why did they make DS an Echo? I assume most likely because they've already had her assets from the previous game, such as Chrom, and it made the conversion process even easier to complete. Dixie doesn't even have a 3D Model outside of trophies from previous games, and even then, those models are straight rips from older titles. Though this is my own take on the subject though. Until there's an official answer on why she was included... who cares really? I like her being in the game. She's definitely proving a lot of points.

The models being present is a good reason for them to be picked. Dixie doesn't have a 3D model, that's true, but who says she would be included as Echo if there had been one ?

Also maybe the reasons the Echoes where chosen is cause Daisy literally has no abilities of her own, Chrom was always drafted as a character with a playstyle that's a mix of Marth and Ike, and Dark Samus is a literal clone of Samus?

If Dixie Kong was so beloved and supported to the point where not treating her playstyle 100% true to every character trait she had would be criminal and create massive outrage, you'd think she'd be in like... two games ago, don't you? Maybe in 2008 she could've been like the Lucas to her Diddy.

In Brawl she was actually part of the forbidden seven, characters cut during development. So that's a reason for her not being in Brawl. Smash 4 was weird yeah, but maybe the planning for the characters went earlier than Tropical Freeze came around. Could simply be a timing issue, or the fact that the biggest game to date to the Donkey Kong franchises was DKC Returns which had no Dixie in it.

View attachment 343606

You walked into that one man, I don't know what to tell you.

Everything above about Dark Samus applies here too.

Dr. Mario has different weight properties and attack power. Echoes are SSB4-era and beyond. You're making comparisons that cannot exist.

Dixie would probably be more floaty, lighter and a little slower on the ground than Diddy too.

You're being sarcastic, right? There's no way you're actually comparing it like that?

I hope you know none of this is saying Dixie Kong's fate is sealed, but I'm saying her being an Echo is a most-likely case and it being impossible is an absurd claim. You have to be ignorant beyond belief to not see that they could do it.

I don't think it's a most likely scenario at all. Unless they're taking the Echo route that Ken got. With different animations, stats, Specials working differently, a total different Up B, her own grab mechanic...

That's hardly a Echo anymore though.

I'll agree to disagree.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As noted by Sakurai, Simon/Richter is pretty much a case of regional popularity differences. Simon is the Belmont in the West by virtue of being the face of the franchise in its early years, (a ridiculous version of him) ending up in stuff like the Captain N show, and was often seen as the default Castlevania character in Smash related discussion prior to 2018. Richter of course triumphs in Japan due to the incredible popularity of Rondo of Blood which still holds to this day.

Honestly, if Castlevania does come back in the next Smash, I'd be surprised if either was gone, given that including both was an easy way of appeasing both sets of fans.

 

[Will]

Ah yes, Dark Samus, who's canonically not literally a clone of Samus, doesn't have the name Samus in her anywhere, and has just about 0,00% chance of returning to Metroid ever ?

And Diddy's very similar-looking girlfriend who shares the same body type, height, and weight as him is an exception to the rule?

Dixie is often called one of the most ominous characters to Ultimate

Me rn searching for one singular soul who said this

It has been done before, yet the Up B's of Ike and Chrom are meant to be similar, Dixie's shouldn't work the same way as DK's does.

It's an apt comparison because it's a similar ascent/descent mechanic as portrayed in DKC2. Would be cool if there was a mechanic where she could keep spinning if you hold the button in midair at the cost of a descent, like in the original game. Again, we're just spitting hypotheticals. Should this, could that, that's not really the main focus here. The focus is just that Dixie Kong's physical similarities make her prime Echo material.

Not make her a Echo.

It was enough for Isabelle.

Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong have the exact same body. Dixie even does have a tail! It's her hair! Don't look at me like that, surely you know this canon fact!

Ah, I'm just jabbing with you there. But for real, they share the exact same body and skeleton. You could put Sakurai at gunpoint and give him every argument for why she shouldn't be an Echo. He's gonna see the easy development kit in Diddy's toolset and he'd still do it.

The models being present is a good reason for them to be picked. Dixie doesn't have a 3D model, that's true, but who says she would be included as Echo if there had been one ?

If she was an Assist in the previous game, I think it would've been very possible, yes. Could've been tossed into the K. Rool trailer.

Also maybe the reasons the Echoes where chosen is cause Daisy literally has no abilities of her own, Chrom was always drafted as a character with a playstyle that's a mix of Marth and Ike, and Dark Samus is a literal clone of Samus?

Wow, disrespecting the **** out of Daisy. I might as well say Dixie has no abilities of her own, too. She can do everything Diddy does, just like how Daisy can do everything Peach can do, no? Get that Daisy slander outta this forum.

Just jabbing with you again, but you see how easy I can just flip it, right? Daisy can do some things, Sakurai just didn't do it.

In Brawl she was actually part of the forbidden seven, characters cut during development.

Very true point, and I am aware of that. That's why I said if she did make it in Brawl, she could've been in a situation similar to Lucas, or Wolf, or Toon Link. A semiclone of sorts with varied potential. Nowadays though, with the physical similarities the two characters share, an Echo conversion is such a no-brainer development option.

Dixie would probably be more floaty, lighter and a little slower on the ground than Diddy too.

"Probably", that's just more hypotheticals we'd be spitting out. I wanted Ganondorf to have more than just his tech demo sword back but hey, we live in a society where Sakurai does what he wants, and also what he deems the most convenient lol

I don't think it's a most likely scenario at all. Unless they're taking the Echo route that Ken got. With different animations, stats, Specials working differently, a total different Up B, her own grab mechanic...

That's hardly a Echo anymore though.

I can see some animations being different for sure, or some moves being visually different by using her hair to attack instead of monkey arms/legs. I also think her dash could change as a hard reference to what her version of the Cartwheel was in DKC2/3. The rest though? Easy conversion.

I'll agree to disagree.

That's fine. As long as you recognize that she is 100% Echo compatible.

 

[Chuderz]

I actually think it'd be best to make Octoling as much of a unique fighter as possible if they would. Obviously they have the Dixie Kong/Bandana Dee advantage of being able to be based upon an existing character exactly. I think they should go for the semiclone route because there isn't much to pull from in Splatoon and the Octoling would present a great opportunity to represent more of the artillery from the game.

Other than Shield-Special refill and I guess Up-Special (though I think Inkjet would work nicely as well) I think the specials could be different. That new bow weapon for a Neutral-Special would be a great start. Down-Special Curling Bomb. Side-Special could be Bubble Blower.

Side-Smash could be Ultra-Stamper. Dust off Snake's old Down-Smash for Octoling with Inkmine. Change some attack motions slightly or completely for the tilts and aerials here and there and voila you have a great fun new addition from the Splatoon cast.

I think Splatoon as a series deserves the closest thing to a second unique rep that it can get because again it kind of has a problem extracting new characters from the material.

As far as the Dixie conversation goes I'd mostly agree that she could be given enough of her own stuff to qualify her as unique. I don't know much of what I'd give her though other than her helicopter hair thing for her recovery. I think she shoots bubblegum so maybe just a reskin of Diddy's Neutral-Special for that with maybe some different properties or something to it. Give her enough to feel fresh. Maybe she's a little lighter and a little faster than Diddy but barely or something? Idk.

 

[Gengar84]

Shadow and Octolings.

Ones I WANT though?

10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]
82e. Roxas [Kingdom Hearts]

Realtalk though? I still like it more than Super Castlevania IV. I prefer the way it plays. And it looks and sounds way better.

You can't break up the Captain N gang!

These are all great choices, even if I would prefer some of them as unique characters, namely Dixie, Impa, and the Black Knight. Would the Black Knight really work as an Ike echo? I remember him being close to Ganondorf’s size and he might look weird scaled down to Ike’s. Although K. Rool is actually smaller than DK in Smash despite being over twice his size in DKC so I guess size isn’t all that important. A solo Charizard would be a really weird echo of Pokémon Trainer and seems like it would be a lot worse. I personally wouldn’t trade Squirtle and Ivysaur for Rock Smash.

As for Dixie Kong, my ideal scenarioisfor her to utilize the animal buddies for her specials. Rambi could be her neural special that charges in place and dashes forward similar to Jigglypuff’s Rollout. Her up special could be riding on Sqwaks and it could shoot coconuts if you press the button again while in flight. Her down special could be riding Enguarde which would deal damage to anyone that made contact and summon a big wave that pushes oppenents away similarly to FLUDD. Her forward special could be her hair twirl that would work similarly to DK’s up special. You could then use her bubblegum gun as a forward smash.

 

[Geno Boost]

These are all great choices, even if I would prefer some of them as unique characters, namely Dixie, Impa, and the Black Knight. Would the Black Knight really work as an Ike echo? I remember him being close to Ganondorf’s size and he might look weird scaled down to Ike’s. Although K. Rool is actually smaller than DK in Smash despite being over twice his size in DKC so I guess size isn’t all that important. A solo Charizard would be a really weird echo of Pokémon Trainer and seems like it would be a lot worse. I personally wouldn’t trade Squirtle and Ivysaur for Rock Smash.

As for Dixie Kong, my ideal scenarioisfor her to utilize the animal buddies for her specials. Rambi could be her neural special that charges in place and dashes forward similar to Jigglypuff’s Rollout. Her up special could be riding on Sqwaks and it could shoot coconuts if you press the button again while in flight. Her down special could be riding Enguarde which would deal damage to anyone that made contact and summon a big wave that pushes oppenents away similarly to FLUDD. Her forward special could be her hair twirl that would work similarly to DK’s up special. You could then use her bubblegum gun as a forward smash.

I think solo Charizard would easily work if they use Mega Charizard X and giving him blue flame he will just have to stay as Mega Charizard the whole time and have rock smash as down special.

 

[Gengar84]

I think solo Charizard would easily work if they use Mega Charizard X and giving him blue flame he will just have to stay as Mega Charizard the whole time and have rock smash as down special.

Yeah, that’s not a bad idea actually. Normal Charizard by itself and as part of Pokémon Trainer would feel wrong to me but I could accept a Mega Charizard X solo character.

 

[Yamat08]

Dr. Mario has different weight properties and attack power. Echoes are SSB4-era and beyond. You're making comparisons that cannot exist.

Weight and power differences shouldn't make one a non-Echo (as evident by Ken). In fact, in Smash4, Dr. Mario was literally just Mario with built-in equipment modifiers and a different Down-B (which is only really different by virtue of Mario's own Down-B changing). But I guess you do have a point that Echoes are exclusive to characters debuting in Smash4 and later. From what we do know, what's officially counted as an "Echo"=/=what the fans have long referred to as "clones", as made apparent by the fact that Isabelle couldn't qualify due to some mild proportional differences. With that being the case, it's perfectly reasonable to think that none of Brawl's semi-clones would be counted as Echoes, and even Melee's clones wouldn't qualify when we consider how the likes of Young Link and Pichu would obviously use a different skeletal frame. With Dr. Mario, I'm guessing either that Down-B difference was enough, or he simply retains his "unique" status due to being a legacy Fighter pre-dating Smash4 (even though he was cut and technically re-debuted alongside Dark Pit and Lucina).

Wow, disrespecting the **** out of Daisy. I might as well say Dixie has no abilities of her own, too. She can do everything Diddy does, just like how Daisy can do everything Peach can do, no? Get that Daisy slander outta this forum.

Just jabbing with you again, but you see how easy I can just flip it, right? Daisy can do some things, Sakurai just didn't do it.

No, he has a point. As much as I'd prefer having a character who isn't a 1:1 glorified re-color, it is nevertheless true that Daisy lacks much material of her own. The grand, grand bulk of her playable appearances have been in spin-offs, and in many of them, she literally just serves as Peach's doubles partner. Now an argument could be made about her not utilizing Toads and the like, but if she couldn't be modeled after Peach (or worse, using some sports-based moveset as I've seen so many others suggest), she likely wouldn't have been made playable at all (more so since Echoes partly exist as an easy check to game balance).

In contrast, Dixie's abilities have been more unique ever since her debut in Donkey Kong Country 2. While the SNES DKC trilogy (and Game Boy DKL trilogy) did have some basic platforming mechanics shared between the two Kongs of each game, each Kong played noticeably different from one another. You could not say that playing as one felt exactly the same as playing the other (which is pretty remarkable considering the Kongs also served as glorified health bars in those games).

Very true point, and I am aware of that. That's why I said if she did make it in Brawl, she could've been in a situation similar to Lucas, or Wolf, or Toon Link. A semiclone of sorts with varied potential. Nowadays though, with the physical similarities the two characters share, an Echo conversion is such a no-brainer development option.

That's fine. As long as you recognize that she is 100% Echo compatible.

"No-brainer"? "100%"? I really can't say I appreciate the sheer arrogance in your choice of words. Could Dixie be an Echo? I personally lean towards "no", but I'm open to the idea that it could happen. However, it is by no means a guarantee, and it's certainly not the obvious choice you so make it out to be. If, by any chance, Dixie were to become an Echo, it would probably not be for any artistic and thematic purposes, but strictly as a cost-saving measure.

 

[Sucumbio]

So if Daisy is basically just Peach's doubles partner but ok for smash what's Waluigi's excuse?

 

[osby]

So if Daisy is basically just Peach's doubles partner but ok for smash what's Waluigi's excuse?

He doesn't look just as good in dresses.

 

[PeridotGX]

So if Daisy is basically just Peach's doubles partner but ok for smash what's Waluigi's excuse?

The real reason they added Daisy was that she could easily be an echo but Waluigi couldn't. Blame Camelot for making Waluigi such a spindly lad.

 

[Geno Boost]

Here is a strange question is Lightning McQueen a 3rd party or 4th party character since Cars game got released 3 days before the movie?

 

[Trevenant]

Here is a strange question is Lightning McQueen a 3rd party or 4th party character since Cars game got released 3 days before the movie?

Third party since they still have to go through Disney... But he falls on the exact same hurdle that makes every other non-video game character unviable which Sakurai has referenced being the only reason they wouldn't try... Being that characters from other sources that they'd try to get would likely have to be quite prolific, and as a result of that, they'd likely want to make sure the characters aren't misrepresented etc... Then there would also probably be some cases of the rights belonging to different places etc... The rule is less arbitrary and more so just due to licensing complexities... Over time, Sakurai has probably been more protective of Smash being solely for video games, but if Ninty somehow got some AAA character who has some notoriety within the space, then I'd imagine Sakurai would probably consent if asked to work on one, under the assumption that they also wouldn't be watched at every step by tons of different guys in suits, even if a little hesitant... That requires tons of ifs itself tho so it will literally never happen...

Even if we wanna assume that the video game only character rule has always been completely based on nought but wanting video games in the same space, Lightning would have to have something to contribute to the gaming market... Yeah, sure, he's an iconic character, but that's based on films lol. So if we're adhering to this restriction, then we shouldn't reference the films... But if we don't reference the movie, then Lightning is literally just a fish in a sea of billions within the video game ocean... As the Cars game did nothing to stand out without referencing the movie...

 

[DarthEnderX]

Would the Black Knight really work as an Ike echo?

Not accurately. But that's never stopped them before.

A solo Charizard would be a really weird echo of Pokémon Trainer and seems like it would be a lot worse. I personally wouldn’t trade Squirtle and Ivysaur for Rock Smash.

Some people just prefer to main 'zard. Making Smash 4 'zard an Echo is an easy solution.

Ah yes, Dark Samus, who's canonically not literally a clone of Samus, doesn't have the name Samus in her anywhere, and has just about 0,00% chance of returning to Metroid ever ?

Uh...it's NOT literally a clone of Samus. It's a mutated Metroid that's possessing one of her old suits. They're not even related.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Not accurately. But that's never stopped them before.

Uh...it's NOT literally a clone of Samus. It's a mutated Metroid that's possessing one of her old suits. They're not even related.

I feel like that's still a clone, though...

 

[Sucumbio]

Black Knight could be an Ike echo but I'd prefer an original moveset.

 

[Gengar84]

Here is a strange question is Lightning McQueen a 3rd party or 4th party character since Cars game got released 3 days before the movie?

My personal view is that Lightning McQueen isn’t a video game character for the same reason that Lucario is one. I think the intention for a character matters more than what medium they were actually first released.

Now that Ganondorf has a sword, do you think Black Knight would actually be a better Ganondorf echo than Ike? Their sizes are a lot closer at least and the Black Knight is known for being really slow and hard hitting. Warlock Punch and Wizard’s Foot would be a little weird but not really more out of place than it already is on Ganon when you think about it.

 

[Ivander]

Now that Ganondorf has a sword, do you think Black Knight would actually be a better Ganondorf echo than Ike? Their sizes are a lot closer at least and the Black Knight is known for being really slow and hard hitting. Warlock Punch and Wizard’s Foot would be a little weird but not really more out of place than it already is on Ganon when you think about it.

No because one, Black Knight never uses any attacks even remotely similar to Ganondorf's B-specials. Some attacks, like Ganondorf's Forward-A kick, wouldn't be out of place, but Ganondorf's Specials do not fit Black Knight whatsoever. Second, Black Knight doesn't use Aether(and no, FEHeroes does not count), so you can't give Ike's Aether to him to use as an Up-B. If anything, Mewtwo and Palutena's Warp Up-B's are more fitting as the Black Knight does use Warp Powder.

But still, Black Knight really does not work as a Ganondorf Echo, let alone an Ike Echo due to a different build and most likely very different stats.

 

[Gengar84]

No because one, Black Knight never uses any attacks even remotely similar to Ganondorf's B-specials. Some attacks, like Ganondorf's Forward-A kick, wouldn't be out of place, but Ganondorf's Specials do not fit Black Knight whatsoever. Second, Black Knight doesn't use Aether(and no, FEHeroes does not count), so you can't give Ike's Aether to him to use as an Up-B. If anything, Mewtwo and Palutena's Warp Up-B's are more fitting as the Black Knight does use Warp Powder.

But still, Black Knight really does not work as a Ganondorf Echo, let alone an Ike Echo due to a different build and most likely very different stats.

Yeah, you do have a good point. Still, I don’t think Ganondorf even fits his own specials if I’m being honest.

 

[Dinoman96]

So if Daisy is basically just Peach's doubles partner but ok for smash what's Waluigi's excuse?

Daisy is a very quick and cheap clone of Peach while Waluigi would have to be unique. Unless...you want him to look like THIS in Smash:

 

[Sucumbio]

Black Knight could be an alt costume of Zelgius... Things to remember is that Zelgius who uses Alondite is deceptively agile... (1:33)

And as the Black Knight is super strong (fighting one handed with a huge sword) and able to easily maneuver his blade like a rapier almost despite wearing heavy plate.

So I would agree he'd be ganondorf's size especially in BK form and his sword swings would probably be closer in speed to Ike or Dorf. I also think his movement would be better suited to mostly ground attacks since he doesn't really jump. Haha it's interesting to think about anyway.

 

[Diddy Kong]

And Diddy's very similar-looking girlfriend who shares the same body type, height, and weight as him is an exception to the rule?


Me rn searching for one singular soul who said this

View attachment 343649


It's an apt comparison because it's a similar ascent/descent mechanic as portrayed in DKC2. Would be cool if there was a mechanic where she could keep spinning if you hold the button in midair at the cost of a descent, like in the original game. Again, we're just spitting hypotheticals. Should this, could that, that's not really the main focus here. The focus is just that Dixie Kong's physical similarities make her prime Echo material.


Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong have the exact same body. Dixie even does have a tail! It's her hair! Don't look at me like that, surely you know this canon fact!

View attachment 343650​

Ah, I'm just jabbing with you there. But for real, they share the exact same body and skeleton. You could put Sakurai at gunpoint and give him every argument for why she shouldn't be an Echo. He's gonna see the easy development kit in Diddy's toolset and he'd still do it.


If she was an Assist in the previous game, I think it would've been very possible, yes. Could've been tossed into the K. Rool trailer.


Wow, disrespecting the **** out of Daisy. I might as well say Dixie has no abilities of her own, too. She can do everything Diddy does, just like how Daisy can do everything Peach can do, no? Get that Daisy slander outta this forum.

Just jabbing with you again, but you see how easy I can just flip it, right? Daisy can do some things, Sakurai just didn't do it.


Very true point, and I am aware of that. That's why I said if she did make it in Brawl, she could've been in a situation similar to Lucas, or Wolf, or Toon Link. A semiclone of sorts with varied potential. Nowadays though, with the physical similarities the two characters share, an Echo conversion is such a no-brainer development option.


"Probably", that's just more hypotheticals we'd be spitting out. I wanted Ganondorf to have more than just his tech demo sword back but hey, we live in a society where Sakurai does what he wants, and also what he deems the most convenient lol


I can see some animations being different for sure, or some moves being visually different by using her hair to attack instead of monkey arms/legs. I also think her dash could change as a hard reference to what her version of the Cartwheel was in DKC2/3. The rest though? Easy conversion.


That's fine. As long as you recognize that she is 100% Echo compatible.

IF! And only IF Echo Fighters can take up all these liberties, yeah maybe it'd be fine with it honestly. I'm a Diddy main, I never really would object to a character as Diddy with a overall similar playstyle. I wish we had that Lucas like semi clone situation in Brawl honestly. I'd settle with that.

If Dixie can have faithful animations, a unique dash attack, animations with her hair whereas Diddy would punch or kick, that's fine. A Up B loosely based off DK's Up B... Yeah. Sure. It would make sense in a way. The Peanut Popgun could be replaced with the Bubble Popgun from Tropical Freeze.

But I'll state again, Dixie has more to work with than Daisy, at the very least. That's not really slander, that's... Just the way it is.

In general, I'd just be pissed if Dixie would be a Echo, but characters as Tom Nook or Octolings wouldn't be. But I could get behind a Ken style Echo with unique animations. Taken that we get Cranky as a unique newcomer, and maybe Funky as a true Echo. That would make things more acceptable.

 

[Gengar84]

Black Knight could be an alt costume of Zelgius... Things to remember is that Zelgius who uses Alondite is deceptively agile... (1:33)

And as the Black Knight is super strong (fighting one handed with a huge sword) and able to easily maneuver his blade like a rapier almost despite wearing heavy plate.

So I would agree he'd be ganondorf's size especially in BK form and his sword swings would probably be closer in speed to Ike or Dorf. I also think his movement would be better suited to mostly ground attacks since he doesn't really jump. Haha it's interesting to think about anyway.

I try not to bring up Zelgius when talking about the Black Knight since it’s kind of a spoiler but I guess the game is old enough now that it’s not a big deal. Smash already spoiled that one anyways. Gameplay wise, in Smash, I picture him like Exdeath in Dissidia if anyone has played that game. Exdeath had extremely slow normal movement but was able to get around quickly by teleporting. In Radiant Dawn, the Black Knight had really bad movement. I think it was even lower than other generals if I remember right.

 

[Stratos]

Three years have passed since we heard and read about Metroid Prime 4, hopefully something will be said about it this year, otherwise we will have to wait again in 2023, let alone for the next Nintendo console.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I try not to bring up Zelgius when talking about the Black Knight since it’s kind of a spoiler but I guess the game is old enough now that it’s not a big deal. Gameplay wise, in Smash, I picture him like Exdeath in Dissidia if anyone has played that game. E death had extremely slow normal movement but was able to get around quickly by teleporting. In Radiant Dawn, the Black Knight had really bad movement. I think it was even lower than other generals if I remember right.

No he had similar movement as Generals I recall. Black Knight could be another "loose" Echo, to Ike, similar to the situation of Melee. Compare Ike to Captain Falcon, and Black Knight to Ganondorf. Now that would make sense. A different Up B that's a warp, but slow and predictable, and a Side B that's not Quick Draw, that would work.

Black Knight would probably require super armor on his attacks, the Tough Guy mechanic of Bowser, maybe more end lag and overall more falling speed, worse jumps, worse traction, more weight, slower walking and running speeds... If that's possible, I'm actually down for it.

I don't see it happening unless we get remakes of the Tellius games however.

This discussion is actually really nice to me cause I always felt there was lots of potential to be realized to have many cool newcomers who are based off current characters. I guess that would be a plus going for Ultimate DX, they could easily do just this.

Another idea I had for Impa for example was make her a loosely defined Echo of Sheik, but let her use the attacks Sheik does with her kodachi of HW Age of Calamity. Dash attack, Up Smash, F Air, and replace the Needles with a Kunai Throw, and that actually would work out pretty well too. Maybe replace the F and D Smash attacks for unique attacks too.

My idea for Slippy Toad for example is making him a Falco Echo, but smaller, and give him the blaster that Fox has. Some of the attacks Falco does could really fit Slippy. Imagine N Air for example but instead of wings, Slippy slaps in a whimsical way. A toad is also supposed to jump higher than usual.