Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ForsakenM]

And Sakurai can change his mind on video game characters only, so is Goku a lock?

I don't know what you know. But one thing you don't seem to grasp is there's a wide, wide, wide chasm between 'it can happen', and 'it will happen', and when you deem something a lock, you're saying it's the latter.

And that's strange, because you should know about overconfident proclamations and false equivalencies as well as anyone.

Ah, the jab. Too bad you didn't hit confirm.

Yes, I do think certain things are a lock. Certain characters are just THAT big of a deal, no matter why those reasons are. Some characters are a 'when' and not an 'if'. The biggest mistake I made in Ultimate was thinking that FP2 would different from FP1 in terms of having more fan demand dedication instead of just going for characters too big to fail and shoving in self-promoting characters people may have wanted a bit more a couple years prior. Byleth was a sign of what to come rather than being the end of it.

Even in retrospect and reflection on my mistakes, this rings true. Dragon Quest was inevitable and a long-time coming, a character from an SNK game was a given due to the history between their games and Sakurai, Byleth was a given due to that success of Tres Casas and Nintendo's insistence of pushing the franchise in Smash. Steve is from the biggest game in the world and was very much Thanos-levels of inevitable, Sephiroth is everywhere Cloud is, Tekken was bound to get something because of Namco making up 80%+ of the workforce for two games now. Popular characters from recent Nintendo IPs are just a given, so nothing really big there.

This goes back as far as Brawl, where it was inevitable we would get third party characters if Smash was to keep being a series, despite it seeming impossible at the time: I bet you any adult who sat down long enough at that time would have probably said 'Hey, wouldn't it make them money to include characters people love, even if they don't own them?' Some things are just obvious when you step back with as much clarity as you can. An argument could be made Ridley or K. Rool due to the sheer magnitude of the fanbase pushing them, that Sakurai couldn't ignore that forever, that he would eventually have to make it work somehow. After that and knowing that MS and Nintendo were very buddy-buddy, as mind-blowing as it was and still is, Banjo & Kazooie was also an eventuality.

I truly feel that, out of all the DLC, Joker and Sora stand out the most as being an 'if'. Joker less so because, while people thought the series would never touch Nintendo consoles, the game and the character were still riding that high and Joker was the most popular RPG character at that time when it came to the public audience.

Sora is a mystery: While it always felt like Sakurai could use his magic to do it and that, if anyone could, it WOULD be Sakurai...I doubt anyone had massive confidence in it. I know I didn't. Dude, we had a leaker that, while likely very incorrect and lying, still said what actually happened well in advance...and people thought it was a joke. People all over, myself included, brought up every single thing that someone at Square said that could kill his chances at every opportunity. He was considered Mr. Impossible, the one thing that couldn't happen, no matter what walls got broken down.

Then we have absolute wild cards like Plant. Things people wouldn't really think about else they were in a giddy stupor and trying to make people laugh or groan with stupid humor. No one would honestly predict this unless they were memeing.

Now, with this clarification between characters that are a 'if they get in' and characters that are a 'when they get in', I'm sure even you have some characters you can think of that, while hype, just flat out make sense and would be more surprising to see them NOT get in the next game.

 

[Shroob]

Even in retrospect and reflection on my mistakes, this rings true. Dragon Quest was inevitable and a long-time coming, a character from an SNK game was a given due to the history between their games and Sakurai, Byleth was a given due to that success of Tres Casas and Nintendo's insistence of pushing the franchise in Smash. Steve is from the biggest game in the world and was very much Thanos-levels of inevitable, Sephiroth is everywhere Cloud is, Tekken was bound to get something because of Namco making up 80%+ of the workforce for two games now. Popular characters from recent Nintendo IPs are just a given, so nothing really big there.

From what Sakurai said, he was given an early copy of 3Houses long, long before anyone got their hands on it otherwise, which makes it seem like the game's success had nothing to do with it. He was already in the process of making Byleth before the game even came out, Byleth would have been in even if the game had bombed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The way Three Houses was set up it was already quite damn apparent that it was the most ambitious Fire Emblem game to date . It's basically what they did with Fates, except put all the routes in one game, and add even another route. It was also the first 3D Fire Emblem game since Radiant Dawn on the Wii. Intelligent Systems also requested Ike to be added to Brawl, despite Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn shamefully being some of the worst selling Fire Emblem games at that given time (now days people learned from their mistake, just look at Amazon how much the games cost!).

So yeah, I gotta say, Byleth indeed was inevitable. I called it before it happened, and am sort of proud of that as it was my only prediction I got right for the Fighter Passes.

But it's always easy to say these things retrospectively. The only Smash games I felt had a sort of pattern between them in terms of newcomers where Melee and Brawl.

 

[Gengar84]

The way Three Houses was set up it was already quite damn apparent that it was the most ambitious Fire Emblem game to date . It's basically what they did with Fates, except put all the routes in one game, and add even another route. It was also the first 3D Fire Emblem game since Radiant Dawn on the Wii. Intelligent Systems also requested Ike to be added to Brawl, despite Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn shamefully being some of the worst selling Fire Emblem games at that given time (now days people learned from their mistake, just look at Amazon how much the games cost!).

So yeah, I gotta say, Byleth indeed was inevitable. I called it before it happened, and am sort of proud of that as it was my only prediction I got right for the Fighter Passes.

But it's always easy to say these things retrospectively. The only Smash games I felt had a sort of pattern between them in terms of newcomers where Melee and Brawl.

I loved Three Houses but I still kind of wish we had gotten Dimitri or Edelgard over Byleth. I’ve never really been the biggest fan of silent avatar characters like Byleth, especially as representatives in a game like Smash. I was still really excited for Joker since I’m such a big fan of Persona and he was the only logical choice even if I would have personally preferred Makoto. Joker’s design is also cooler to me than Byleth’s which is the only criteria I can really judge a silent protagonist by. Still, I’m fine with Byleth and it least we got some amazing music with them.

 

[Geno Boost]

Here is a question do you guys feel indie characters deserve to get a playable spot over huge 3rd party characters from big companies?
Nintendo seems to prefer huge 3rd party characters over indies which makes sense for marketing purposes.

 

[Perkilator]

Here is a question do you guys feel indie characters deserve to get a playable spot over huge 3rd party characters from big companies?
Nintendo seems to prefer huge 3rd party characters over indies which makes sense for marketing purposes.

I think both can coexist.

On the topic of indies, here’s one I did a moveset for: the Knight

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Ah, the jab. Too bad you didn't hit confirm.

Yes, I do think certain things are a lock. Certain characters are just THAT big of a deal, no matter why those reasons are. Some characters are a 'when' and not an 'if'. The biggest mistake I made in Ultimate was thinking that FP2 would different from FP1 in terms of having more fan demand dedication instead of just going for characters too big to fail and shoving in self-promoting characters people may have wanted a bit more a couple years prior. Byleth was a sign of what to come rather than being the end of it.

Even in retrospect and reflection on my mistakes, this rings true. Dragon Quest was inevitable and a long-time coming, a character from an SNK game was a given due to the history between their games and Sakurai, Byleth was a given due to that success of Tres Casas and Nintendo's insistence of pushing the franchise in Smash. Steve is from the biggest game in the world and was very much Thanos-levels of inevitable, Sephiroth is everywhere Cloud is, Tekken was bound to get something because of Namco making up 80%+ of the workforce for two games now. Popular characters from recent Nintendo IPs are just a given, so nothing really big there.

This goes back as far as Brawl, where it was inevitable we would get third party characters if Smash was to keep being a series, despite it seeming impossible at the time: I bet you any adult who sat down long enough at that time would have probably said 'Hey, wouldn't it make them money to include characters people love, even if they don't own them?' Some things are just obvious when you step back with as much clarity as you can. An argument could be made Ridley or K. Rool due to the sheer magnitude of the fanbase pushing them, that Sakurai couldn't ignore that forever, that he would eventually have to make it work somehow. After that and knowing that MS and Nintendo were very buddy-buddy, as mind-blowing as it was and still is, Banjo & Kazooie was also an eventuality.

I truly feel that, out of all the DLC, Joker and Sora stand out the most as being an 'if'. Joker less so because, while people thought the series would never touch Nintendo consoles, the game and the character were still riding that high and Joker was the most popular RPG character at that time when it came to the public audience.

Sora is a mystery: While it always felt like Sakurai could use his magic to do it and that, if anyone could, it WOULD be Sakurai...I doubt anyone had massive confidence in it. I know I didn't. Dude, we had a leaker that, while likely very incorrect and lying, still said what actually happened well in advance...and people thought it was a joke. People all over, myself included, brought up every single thing that someone at Square said that could kill his chances at every opportunity. He was considered Mr. Impossible, the one thing that couldn't happen, no matter what walls got broken down.

Then we have absolute wild cards like Plant. Things people wouldn't really think about else they were in a giddy stupor and trying to make people laugh or groan with stupid humor. No one would honestly predict this unless they were memeing.

Now, with this clarification between characters that are a 'if they get in' and characters that are a 'when they get in', I'm sure even you have some characters you can think of that, while hype, just flat out make sense and would be more surprising to see them NOT get in the next game.

I think it's easy to say in retrospective "X character was totally inevitable, everyone saw it happen", but that's not what happen at all. Take Kazuya for example. You said that "Tekken was bound to get something because of Namco making up 80%+ of the workforce for two games now", which is fair, but most people didn't predict a Tekken characters because Namco was getting a lot of mii costumes and we knew that Sakurai tried for Smash 4 but couldn't do it. It's so easy to say "oh yeah it was obvious" in retrospective, but really Kazuya in Smash was pretty surprising. And like, sure Dragon quest is huge, but we knew that dealing with Square for this franchise wouldn't be easy. You also said "a character from an SNK game was a given due to the history between their games and Sakurai", again that's easy to say in retrospective but before the SNK trademark leak nobody thought of that.

Take Bandana dee for example. People where saying that his chances was high for Smash 4 because of Return to dreamland and it didn't happen. Then, he had high chances for Ultimate base game because he was more important in spin off but it still didn't happen. Then people where expecting him as dlc because of star allies and it didn't happen. I honestly don't see what changes for him, yeah he seems to be important in Forgotten lands but he misses the boat twice despite having big roles in game that release pretty close to their respective Smash. I really don't see how he's a lock.

But of course, if he is indeed in the next Smash a lot of people will change the narrative as if it was that obvious that he would have been in and everyone saw it coming. Let's be real, most people barely predict anything in both DLC pass. The narrative that everyone was a lock and so obviously happening is just not true at all.

 

[Gengar84]

Here is a question do you guys feel indie characters deserve to get a playable spot over huge 3rd party characters from big companies?
Nintendo seems to prefer huge 3rd party characters over indies which makes sense for marketing purposes.

I’m not very familiar with many indie characters but I don’t really have any problems with an indie rep in Smash. I would prefer characters I’m personally attached to but I understand that Smash doesn’t have to cater to my specific taste so I’m generally okay with anything.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The duality of man.

My complaint isn't with the low number of additional characters, but with the choice of who precious slots is given to in that roster.

Normally, we get one weird new retro Nintendo character in a roster with 10+ new character. Spending fully half of your new character slots on characters like that would be infuriating.

 

[Gengar84]

My complaint isn't with the low number of additional characters, but with the choice of who precious slots is given to in that roster.

Normally, we get one weird new retro Nintendo character in a roster with 10+ new character. Spending fully half of your new character slots on characters like that would be infuriating.

So you’re saying I should give up on my dream of the Battletoads, Bill Rizer, Magus, and Fulgore in Smash?

Just kidding if it wasn’t obvious lol. But I do want to see them all get in.

 

[SKX31]

Pokemon and Fire Em-
shot

Now that is a true:

Here is a question do you guys feel indie characters deserve to get a playable spot over huge 3rd party characters from big companies?
Nintendo seems to prefer huge 3rd party characters over indies

"Deserve" is always going to be a very difficult word to put in this context, since it plays into very subjective feelings on characters. Also, it stirs up very strong emotions - specifically with the negative "not deserving" - which I'd personally rather avoid.

But yeah, I don't see any real obstacles for a indie character. Not when Sakurai played Smash with Toby Fox; and Sans got in as a Mii costume on rather short notice.

 

[Lionfranky]

I think it's easy to say in retrospective "X character was totally inevitable, everyone saw it happen", but that's not what happen at all. Take Kazuya for example. You said that "Tekken was bound to get something because of Namco making up 80%+ of the workforce for two games now", which is fair, but most people didn't predict a Tekken characters because Namco was getting a lot of mii costumes and we knew that Sakurai tried for Smash 4 but couldn't do it. It's so easy to say "oh yeah it was obvious" in retrospective, but really Kazuya in Smash was pretty surprising. And like, sure Dragon quest is huge, but we knew that dealing with Square for this franchise wouldn't be easy. You also said "a character from an SNK game was a given due to the history between their games and Sakurai", again that's easy to say in retrospective but before the SNK trademark leak nobody thought of that.

Take Bandana dee for example. People where saying that his chances was high for Smash 4 because of Return to dreamland and it didn't happen. Then, he had high chances for Ultimate base game because he was more important in spin off but it still didn't happen. Then people where expecting him as dlc because of star allies and it didn't happen. I honestly don't see what changes for him, yeah he seems to be important in Forgotten lands but he misses the boat twice despite having big roles in game that release pretty close to their respective Smash. I really don't see how he's a lock.

But of course, if he is indeed in the next Smash a lot of people will change the narrative as if it was that obvious that he would have been in and everyone saw it coming. Let's be real, most people barely predict anything in both DLC pass. The narrative that everyone was a lock and so obviously happening is just not true at all.

Pretty much. Same with Sora. People were dismissive of him due to Disney.

I bet the same will happen to character like Chief.

 

[Gengar84]

Pretty much. Same with Sora. People were dismissive of him due to Disney.

I bet the same will happen to character like Chief.

At this point, I think it’s a bit silly to write off any character due to being difficult to negotiate. I think Master Chief is entirely plausible since Sakurai has already worked with Microsoft for Banjo and Steve. The only real questionable characters for me are the ones owned by Sony but I don’t even think they’re necessarily out of the question.

 

[Yamat08]

"Deserve" is always going to be a very difficult word to put in this context, since it plays into very subjective feelings on characters. Also, it stirs up very strong emotions - specifically with the negative "not deserving" - which I'd personally rather avoid.

Indeed. At the risk of arguing semantics, one could say that Jigglypuff was more "deserving" than Bowser.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Personally I think that indie games will have more chances in the next game. I think Sakurai/Nintendo was atleast aware of the fan demand for some of them, considering that Shovel knight got an Assist trophy, Cuphead got a Mii with a music and Sakurai said when announcing the Sans Mii that it was due to the big demand (btw Undertale release when the Smash ballot was almost over so he was probably aware of his popularity outside of the ballot). I think Shovel knight will have the most chances of them considering that the franchise is still active (with Pocket dungeon that released late 2021 and Shovel knigt dig is planned for 2022) and is usually close to Nintendo, but I think Sans or Kris could have high chances too and maybe Hollow knight or Hornet (the one from Silksong, not the car from Daytona) could happen, but the thing with indie is that it's hard to predict because a lot of them are one off game and not big franchise so they could be irrelevant by the time the next games come. Take Quote for example, who's fairly popular but when he was at his peak of popularity Smash wasn't getting indie third party characters. Shovel knight is really the exception, becasue Yacht club already said that they have plans for more Shovel knight after Dig.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Microsoft after buying out Banjo, Crash and Spyro into their many, many franchises.

 

[Stratos]

I read somewhere just now that due to the acquisition of Activision / Blizzard by Microsoft, there is a case of a merger between Nintendo and SONY. Now if this rumor is true no one knows.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I read somewhere just now that due to the acquisition of Activision / Blizzard by Microsoft, there is a case of a merger between Nintendo and SONY. Now if this rumor is true no one knows.

This is the part where we throw our heads back and laugh. Ready?

 

[Gengar84]

This is the part where we throw our heads back and laugh. Ready?

J Jonah Jameson Laugh - Spiderman

Yeah this was... funny...

m.youtube.com

Bottom text

 

[Stratos]

What I read for the merger between Nintendo and SONY is just a rumor, I'm not saying it really will happen. Now whether they mean "merger" in any other way is another matter. It is probably a collaboration between the two companies.

 

[Wonder Smash]

What I read for the merger between Nintendo and SONY is just a rumor, I'm not saying it really will happen. Now whether they mean "merger" in any other way is another matter. It is probably a collaboration between the two companies.

Maybe we'll finally get the Nintendo PlayStation!

 

[Stratos]

I do not know how you see it, but I think Nintendo is better independent, so I prefer it that way. Nintendo should not be redeemed by anyone. It made the right move when that was not acquired by Microsoft. Nintendo is the number one video game company.

 

[Ivander]

J Jonah Jameson Laugh - Spiderman

Yeah this was... funny...

m.youtube.com

Bottom text

Imma show you how to respond to this correctly.

This is the part where we throw our heads back and laugh. Ready?

Ready!

---
Anyway, I don't see it happening. Nintendo isn't in a bad state and I'm pretty sure Sony isn't either. Seriously, they don't need to respond to a buyout with a buyout or merger of their own to appease the console war boyz. Sony may care to some degree since Activision was a big deal regarding Call of Duty and whatnot, but Nintendo certainly doesn't care.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Imma show you how to respond to this correctly.

Ready!

---
Anyway, I don't see it happening. Nintendo isn't in a bad state and I'm pretty sure Sony isn't either. Seriously, they don't need to respond to a buyout with a buyout or merger of their own to appease the console war boyz. Sony may care to some degree since Activision was a big deal regarding Call of Duty and whatnot, but Nintendo certainly doesn't care.

Plus, Activision hardly supported Nintendo as is: most of their Switch games are just late ports...

 

[Digital Hazard]

Here is a question do you guys feel indie characters deserve to get a playable spot over huge 3rd party characters from big companies?
Nintendo seems to prefer huge 3rd party characters over indies which makes sense for marketing purposes.

They have made a big step up in Ultimate for sure, but who knows? Honestly I bet it one gets in with a fighter, it'd be a very huge one like FNaF or one that Nintendo had publishing rights over like Shovel Knight.

And honestly the latter is one of my most wanteds.

 

[Stratos]

Banjo-Kazooie came to Nintendo Switch Online, what needs to be done is for Microsoft to sell Rare back to Nintendo or at least the IPs. Rare's games especially Banjo-Kazooie fit Nintendo better.

 

[Gengar84]

Banjo-Kazooie came to Nintendo Switch Online, what needs to be done is for Microsoft to sell Rare back to Nintendo or at least the IPs. Rare's games especially Banjo-Kazooie fit Nintendo better.

I would love that. I’d be happy if Microsoft at least did a little more with their properties. RARE made a lot of my favorite games growing up and it’s a little depressing to see how little people care about them these days. I’m hoping that Microsoft at least ports RARE Replay to the Switch at some point.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I loved Three Houses but I still kind of wish we had gotten Dimitri or Edelgard over Byleth. I’ve never really been the biggest fan of silent avatar characters like Byleth, especially as representatives in a game like Smash. I was still really excited for Joker since I’m such a big fan of Persona and he was the only logical choice even if I would have personally preferred Makoto. Joker’s design is also cooler to me than Byleth’s which is the only criteria I can really judge a silent protagonist by. Still, I’m fine with Byleth and it least we got some amazing music with them.

It's close to blasphemy here, but I'd want Dimitri at least to enter Smash. Edelgard also has her merits, wouldn't know what to do with Claude however but if they could make it work that'd be interesting too. Byleth should then get a more sword based moveset with of course some heavy zoning, I always was kind of upset they choose the moveset they did for Byleth.

Am not too sure about a new Fire Emblem coming out before a new Smash. But doesn't matter, Three Houses could easily get all 4 main characters as long as the total amount of characters of Fire Emblem isn't exceeded me thinks.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I loved Three Houses but I still kind of wish we had gotten Dimitri or Edelgard over Byleth. I’ve never really been the biggest fan of silent avatar characters like Byleth, especially as representatives in a game like Smash. I was still really excited for Joker since I’m such a big fan of Persona and he was the only logical choice even if I would have personally preferred Makoto. Joker’s design is also cooler to me than Byleth’s which is the only criteria I can really judge a silent protagonist by. Still, I’m fine with Byleth and it least we got some amazing music with them.

It's close to blasphemy here, but I'd want Dimitri at least to enter Smash. Edelgard also has her merits, wouldn't know what to do with Claude however but if they could make it work that'd be interesting too. Byleth should then get a more sword based moveset with of course some heavy zoning, I always was kind of upset they choose the moveset they did for Byleth.

Am not too sure about a new Fire Emblem coming out before a new Smash. But doesn't matter, Three Houses could easily get all 4 main characters as long as the total amount of characters of Fire Emblem isn't exceeded me thinks.

 

[Chuderz]

Well, first of all, games like CoD and Overwatch already have crossplay between Xbox and Playstation. Also, crossplay doesn't exactly encourage players to filter towards a specific system or platform, which is antithetical to purchases like this. It's become industry standard, but it's not a shock the market leader didn't want to embrace it until quite late, because they had the most to lose.

I'm thinking they'll negotiate a carte blanche universal deal in regards to crossplay not any 1 or 2 specific titles.

As far as GamePass, Microsoft's ambition to put the service on a Sony console is their offer to keep CoD, and all the other exclusives, on that platform. If Sony wants those games on its system badly enough, it will acquiesce. Leveraging CoD to put GamePass on the system is already happening by simply having CoD on GamePass, and exclusively on GamePass. These actions aren't just to incentivize players to filter towards GamePass, it's for other companies to, perhaps grudgingly, allow the service on their platforms as a means of allowing access to the now-exclusive titles.

CoD is the biggest chip bought in this deal, I have to imagine they're going to use it towards their ultimate goal of growing and proliferating GamePass (and moving more Xboxes).

Yes but I still think this incentive exists in a hypothetical situation where COD is allowed to remain multiplat. Not only is having your COD game being more enticing as a subscription service offer but you also potentially get a PR boost and maybe even more leverage over Sony than you would by strong-arming them. They could just strong-arm them and that's the safest speculation but I'm going a little bit more wild with mine thinking they think they have more to gain by being friendlier with Sony. I think this because I think that's been Microsoft ultimate goal after getting crushed last generation. The whole "if you can't beat them join them" motto taken to the absolute extreme in the gaming industry space.

And regarding the PR, I think they're going to be too busy touting their own achievements to lend credence to detraction on the internet. If MS wants to still be "good guy Microsoft", they can talk about how they're cleaning up Activision, and then put out sales figures of increased subscriptions to GamePass. More over, once Sony starts making bigger acquisitions, which they probably will to compete, this behavior will become more normalized and there will be less heat targeted towards Microsoft specifically. Past that, soon enough people are going to return to their routine where they might grumble about "monopolies", but the focus isn't going to be so intense that MS actually need acknowledge it via PR.

So if they just ignore it it'll go away and if it goes away it doesn't truly matter? Okay but that literally is a presumption that relies exclusively upon the ignorance and apathy and completely neglects the material conditions. Even if Sony uses their entire warchest and then some it'll in no way match even a like a quarter or eighth of what Microsoft has. I think people still hate Ticketmaster all these years later and the political situation in the US wasn't so corrupt to disproportionally stifle candidates willing to exact more consequential anti-trust applications I think I could see the population getting behind breaking up a lot of these companies. They certainly deserve it for corrupting the political process in their favor.

And fwiw, by definition having third-biggest market share inhibits being a monopoly, because that means two entities have a higher market share than you. You clearly do not have exclusive control of that industry. Or even near-exclusive control. You're just a very big entity within it. I understand the concerns people have, but they aren't monopolies. There are still many players in the game industry.

Like I said they still have the ability to grow through the acquisition process and have MUCH more of an ability to than that of their competitors and I highly doubt they'll rest at number 3. I imagine Valve is going to aggressively be pursued in addition to maybe Bungie and Warner Bros Games.

 

[Sucumbio]

Here's something to consider:

Not every software developer fits in terms of acquisition or merger. Case in point: Square. They started as a side venture to a power company and after some consideration joined Nintendo as an exclusive developer. It wouldn't be until Sony and Nintendo fell out that Square would begin branching onto other consoles. And it would be Microsoft in 1999 who unsuccessfully courted them with a buy out proposal.

Point being some 3rd party developers neither wish for or expect to be purchased. Capcom, Square Enix, Sega, Konami, these companies thrive on being able to make games for multiple platform and console markets and thus are leagues beyond niche development companies.

That said, an IP like Call of Duty is actually developed by such companies as Infinity Ward, Treyarch, and more recently Sledgehammer and Raven. This isn't even counting the dozens of subcontractor companies like Nerve Software, Gray Matter Interactive, Spark Unlimited to name just a few...

ActBlizz was the publisher. Now Microsoft is. As such they absolutely can and will continue to publish across all platforms simply because, just like with Windows, whether you're buying an Xbox or not, you're still paying them. They've been doing business like this since their founding with MSDOS and it won't ever change because there's no good financial reasons for it to.

 

[Shroob]

Like I said they still have the ability to grow through the acquisition process and have MUCH more of an ability to than that of their competitors and I highly doubt they'll rest at number 3. I imagine Valve is going to aggressively be pursued in addition to maybe Bungie and Warner Bros Games.

I would be very surprised if anyone can afford Valve.


Valve is a company which makes probably some of the most money in regards to the PC market because they get a cut out of every sale they make on Steam. Steam as a platform has basically made it so they don't need to make games for a good near decade now, and the stuff they have put out is just stuff like HL Alyx.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Steam as a platform has basically made it so they don't need to make games for a good near decade now, and the stuff they have put out is just stuff like HL Alyx.

It might be Steam's success, but Valve's do-whatever-you-want policy has been a huge burden for making games with eighth-gen levels of polish, and Alyx was only able to be done by having Valve stop being Valve and forcing people to work strictly on Alyx.

I'd think they'd also have to stop being themselves to get L4D2 out in a year too, given it having five campaigns when it launched as opposed to four.

 

[Shroob]

It might be Steam's success, but Valve's do-whatever-you-want policy has been a huge burden for making games with eighth-gen levels of polish, and Alyx was only able to be done by having Valve stop being Valve and forcing people to work strictly on Alyx.

I'd think they'd also have to stop being themselves to get L4D2 out in a year too, given it having five campaigns when it launched as opposed to four.

I'm a Team Fortress 2 fan


You don't need to remind me, trust me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm a Team Fortress 2 fan


You don't need to remind me, trust me.

Hopefully, it has been worth the wait.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So you’re saying I should give up on my dream of the Battletoads, Bill Rizer, Magus, and Fulgore in Smash?

At least those are retro icons. Takamaru and Ayumi are nobodies.

 

[SPEN18]

Takamaru and Ayumi are nobodies.

They at least have some modern and Western appearances now. I like them both, but yes, there are some bigger and/or more long-running franchises I'd prefer first.

But I'm also responding to this as a segue into saying that the notion of a "retro rep" should be seriously expanded to stuff beyond the 80s. Things like Sin & Punishment or Advance Wars are just as old now as 80s characters were when they got added to Melee (even older by the time we get a proper Smash sequel). And part of the deal is of course how culturally pervasive 80s gaming was, but also games like Ice Climbers and Kid Icarus which have gotten PCs were never at that mainstream level. You have characters like Banjo-Kazooie and K. Rool who fit the description of "non-80s retro rep" but these got in primarily due to demand rather than a desire to make sure that their respective era of Nintendo gaming was adequately represented; it's really not at all like adding someone such as Mr. G&W or Duck Hunt. Given that a proper Smash sequel is most probably several years away, could we even see someone like Chibi-Robo get picked as a surprise throwback oddity, despite being victimized by the combination of never being the king of his respective console nor having a level of demand commensurate with the ballot dominators? Even a character like Skull Kid who is from a represented series and has had consistent popularity but probably not at the level of someone like K. Rool or Banjo could fit into this category to some extent.

This is not a new idea at all and I'm not against 80s characters at all if they have merits for rostering, but this is not talked about enough IMO, especially outside of isolated areas like support threads.

 

[Simnm]

How likely do you think crash is now for the next game?
Do you think that he is going to be base roster or dlc?

 

[dream1ng]

Ah, the jab. Too bad you didn't hit confirm.

Yes, I do think certain things are a lock. Certain characters are just THAT big of a deal, no matter why those reasons are. Some characters are a 'when' and not an 'if'. The biggest mistake I made in Ultimate was thinking that FP2 would different from FP1 in terms of having more fan demand dedication instead of just going for characters too big to fail and shoving in self-promoting characters people may have wanted a bit more a couple years prior. Byleth was a sign of what to come rather than being the end of it.

Even in retrospect and reflection on my mistakes, this rings true. Dragon Quest was inevitable and a long-time coming, a character from an SNK game was a given due to the history between their games and Sakurai, Byleth was a given due to that success of Tres Casas and Nintendo's insistence of pushing the franchise in Smash. Steve is from the biggest game in the world and was very much Thanos-levels of inevitable, Sephiroth is everywhere Cloud is, Tekken was bound to get something because of Namco making up 80%+ of the workforce for two games now. Popular characters from recent Nintendo IPs are just a given, so nothing really big there.

This goes back as far as Brawl, where it was inevitable we would get third party characters if Smash was to keep being a series, despite it seeming impossible at the time: I bet you any adult who sat down long enough at that time would have probably said 'Hey, wouldn't it make them money to include characters people love, even if they don't own them?' Some things are just obvious when you step back with as much clarity as you can. An argument could be made Ridley or K. Rool due to the sheer magnitude of the fanbase pushing them, that Sakurai couldn't ignore that forever, that he would eventually have to make it work somehow. After that and knowing that MS and Nintendo were very buddy-buddy, as mind-blowing as it was and still is, Banjo & Kazooie was also an eventuality.

I truly feel that, out of all the DLC, Joker and Sora stand out the most as being an 'if'. Joker less so because, while people thought the series would never touch Nintendo consoles, the game and the character were still riding that high and Joker was the most popular RPG character at that time when it came to the public audience.

Sora is a mystery: While it always felt like Sakurai could use his magic to do it and that, if anyone could, it WOULD be Sakurai...I doubt anyone had massive confidence in it. I know I didn't. Dude, we had a leaker that, while likely very incorrect and lying, still said what actually happened well in advance...and people thought it was a joke. People all over, myself included, brought up every single thing that someone at Square said that could kill his chances at every opportunity. He was considered Mr. Impossible, the one thing that couldn't happen, no matter what walls got broken down.

Then we have absolute wild cards like Plant. Things people wouldn't really think about else they were in a giddy stupor and trying to make people laugh or groan with stupid humor. No one would honestly predict this unless they were memeing.

Now, with this clarification between characters that are a 'if they get in' and characters that are a 'when they get in', I'm sure even you have some characters you can think of that, while hype, just flat out make sense and would be more surprising to see them NOT get in the next game.

Hindsight the post. You can explain why we get any third-parties we get because they all have reasons that would make their inclusion make sense. It could be done just as easily with the ones we didn't get. Looking back and dubbing the characters we did get inevitable is unbelievable degrees of revisionism.

Not even to mention you ostensibly think BWD is a lock because Sakurai has changed his mind about unrelated things and worked hard to achieve even more unrelated things. All that proves is it's a possibility. Calling it a lock is hugely unfounded presumption. Even at the best of times calling most things a lock is spurious. Something with the entire series of precedence against you is... poorly reasoned, to put it mildly.

It's just wild you say things like this and then turn around to deride the rest of the thread on its lapses of reason.

 

[Lionfranky]

At this point, I think it’s a bit silly to write off any character due to being difficult to negotiate. I think Master Chief is entirely plausible since Sakurai has already worked with Microsoft for Banjo and Steve. The only real questionable characters for me are the ones owned by Sony but I don’t even think they’re necessarily out of the question.

"Chief can't get in because Nintendo is biased toward Japanese."
Frankly, it's more that Sakurai and Nintendo have not been aware during this cycle. They are running out of massive Japanese characters. Heck, I see first party running low. Fact that we've seen more western characters making in in form of spirits and mii should prove that they are taking babystep.