Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Has there been any announcement?

No.

Until we see that "Suit Up!" repeat event pop up, we're still in Shrodinger mode on a new Spirit Event.

 

[Shinuto]

Wheres the Spirit Event? Where's the damn spirits?!

Come on March 8th would be poetic!

 

[SPEN18]

I think Smash tends to design fighters in a way of "What makes the most sense for this fighters design?" Like a first impression.


To use the most controversial example. Ganondorf. You look at Ganondorf, you see this big burly intimidating man (At least he was in Melee, TP Ganondorf is more armour than muscle), so he's designed as a bit more of a slow brawler because that's what you'd expect from a big burly intimidating figure. Then with that archetype, you build around that with stuff that's more specific to that character. Dark Magic effects with the punches, giant sword swings. Is the result perfect? Not always, but it's the kind of design that makes it easier to pick up and play most characters in the game.

For another quicker example. Ike and Robin have fairly high speed stats in their games, but play slower in Smash because their designs don't really lend themselves to a speedy Moveset. Mewtwo is light because he generally looks kinda fragile. Smash designs movesets a lot based on look and body type, especially in earlier games, rather than cramming in a billion references. Which in my opinion, makes for some natural feeling movesets

Videogames are all about immersion, so IMO the #1 thing is selling the feeling of that character. How, in universe, do they move and act, and how would they fight? Of course, "feel" is a very nebulous thing, and takes a lot of talent and playtesting to pull off consistently successfully. We can all admire that about the Smash team. It's also why you have to be careful about things like "represent X mechanic from their home series" and "make this hyper-specific callback"; not that those things can't be worked in to great effect, as they absolutely can, but they have to be well-thought-out and flow well with everything else.

 

[superprincess]

I think Smash tends to design fighters in a way of "What makes the most sense for this fighters design?" Like a first impression.


To use the most controversial example. Ganondorf. You look at Ganondorf, you see this big burly intimidating man (At least he was in Melee, TP Ganondorf is more armour than muscle), so he's designed as a bit more of a slow brawler because that's what you'd expect from a big burly intimidating figure. Then with that archetype, you build around that with stuff that's more specific to that character. Dark Magic effects with the punches, giant sword swings. Is the result perfect? Not always, but it's the kind of design that makes it easier to pick up and play most characters in the game.

For another quicker example. Ike and Robin have fairly high speed stats in their games, but play slower in Smash because their designs don't really lend themselves to a speedy Moveset. Mewtwo is light because he generally looks kinda fragile. Smash designs movesets a lot based on look and body type, especially in earlier games, rather than cramming in a billion references. Which in my opinion, makes for some natural feeling movesets

Yeah this is really evident when you look at most of the early characters. By looking at them, what does this fighter look like they would do?

This is why I think the most important principle when designing movesets is what would this fighter do in the context of a fight, versus what they could do.

For example: Bowser absolutely could hurl hammers or a Chain Chomp at you. But he wouldn't. He'd opt for a more physical fighting style. That's what his design and personality alludes to. Another example: Marth could (and according to some, should) have a shield. But a swordsman with speed, finesse and grace wouldn't need a shield, they'd focus on avoiding your attacks and counterattacking.

The only fighter that really gets this wrong imo is Samus. Yeah she's physically capable of beating you up with punches and kicks. But would she? She's got a whole arm cannon and a bunch of abilities and weapons at her disposal. If she's focused on taking you down, she's not gonna be in your face kicking you.

Still, references aren't always a necessary ingredient for a fitting moveset. They're more so a fun extra sprinkled on top.

And in the rare cases when they're shoehorned in? It feels weird. Snake's forward smash for instance. He theoretically could launch a missile at the floor causing it to explode near you. But would he? It's a strange choice.

 

[NintenRob]

The only fighter that really gets this wrong imo is Samus. Yeah she's physically capable of beating you up with punches and kicks. But would she? She's got a whole arm cannon and a bunch of abilities and weapons at her disposal. If she's focused on taking you down, she's not gonna be in your face kicking you.

Samus is a bit of an odd one to me. A lot of suggestions people have I just don't think translate to Smash very well.

Like you say she has her arm canon so she shouldn't punch or kick, but I don't think you can build a good Moveset exclusively using her arm canon, at least not with a character as tall and limber as Samus. Like I guess Mii Gunner does uses it more and maybe that's what people want, but I also don't think Mii Gunner is a particular fun Moveset, and Samus's larger frame doesn't lend itself well to little pew pews imo.

The other suggestion is giving her other beams, but where would you give her those beams? Beams aren't different attacks for Samus, they're just upgrades over the previous beams and are all used the same way. Some games let you switch between them but they are still performed the same thing and changes are primarily for puzzle solving and accessing new areas.


Dread stuff would help freshen things up, and I do want the counter. And updating her momentum and speed to match closer to how she feels in Dread would be great,. But I don't think that stuff lend themselves to normal attacks very well, and her specials already cover her most iconic attacks (which is what special attacks should be)

But some added flourishes could help, like give her F-Smash an explosive effect to reference the diffusion beams, and like the kicks because it shows off Samus's more athletic side. I just don't think an overhaul of Samus's kit is the answer.

 

[Kirbeh]

Samus is a bit of an odd one to me. A lot of suggestions people have I just don't think translate to Smash very well.

Like you say she has her arm canon so she shouldn't punch or kick, but I don't think you can build a good Moveset exclusively using her arm canon, at least not with a character as tall and limber as Samus. Like I guess Mii Gunner does uses it more and maybe that's what people want, but I also don't think Mii Gunner is a particular fun Moveset, and Samus's larger frame doesn't lend itself well to little pew pews imo.

The other suggestion is giving her other beams, but where would you give her those beams? Beams aren't different attacks for Samus, they're just upgrades over the previous beams and are all used the same way. Some games let you switch between them but they are still performed the same thing and changes are primarily for puzzle solving and accessing new areas.


Dread stuff would help freshen things up, and I do want the counter. And updating her momentum and speed to match closer to how she feels in Dread would be great,. But I don't think that stuff lend themselves to normal attacks very well, and her specials already cover her most iconic attacks (which is what special attacks should be)

But some added flourishes could help, like give her F-Smash an explosive effect to reference the diffusion beams, and like the kicks because it shows off Samus's more athletic side. I just don't think an overhaul of Samus's kit is the answer.

Characters using up close physical attacks in a fighting game is just kind of how it goes so I don't think there's anything wrong with Samus doing so. That said, I have always felt like Smash's version of Samus feels a bit too slow and kind of clunky.

I'm still partial to the idea of replacing a lot of her normals with those of ZSS and retroactively turning ZSS into a semi-clone. They're both Samus so I think it's reasonable enough for the two to share a base fighting style with the move sets diverging based on equipment/weapons instead.

Then you add a handful of additional changes like the melee counter to round things off. Also, retroactively "de-clones" Dark Samus to an extent.

 

[Sid-cada]

Characterization is admittedly something that I study a lot in move set design thanks to Make Your Move here in Smash boards. While I never had the time to sit down and make a move set, the theory is interesting to me.

I suppose now is as good a time as any to bring up characterization. Much of what I'm going to say here is going to paraphrase one of the articles they made here.

In short, there are 6 layers of characterization:

1 - Superficial Characterization

A character should perform moves they are famous for doing. This helps to ensure that the move set feels like it was made for that character specifically. Otherwise, the move set risks feeling generic and not like the character is like specially.

If you made a move set for Link and didn't include a spin attack, it wouldn't feel like Link, and I would question what you are doing.

2 - Extrapolative Characterization

Most characters need at least some extra attacks to help fill out their entire roster of moves. Here we see characters do things that aren't necessarily cannon to them, but at least make sense for their character. Most character's more generic punches and kicks come from here.

Snake's Cypher is a good example of this in action. While Snake never used one of these occasional enemies to reach a higher place, using one like this is a good example of how clever and resourceful he could be and fits in perfectly as a part of his character.

3 - In-Practice Characterization

Here we go into the nitty-gritty of characterization. Here we try and see how moves that a character could use there moves and tools in a way that informs us of what the character is like.

Ever do a Browsercide? Taking an opponent with you is 100% something Browser would do, and thus is good example of this in action.

4 - Player Characterization

Now that we have given the player the tools, ideally we should give the player a playstyle that matches what they would want to do as that character. Here we try to guide the player to act in a way that would be similar to how the character would play.

Sonic's tendency to run away from the opponent until they get frustrated and make a mistake, only to punish them when they mess up, is rather similar to how Sonic would act and fight, so he's a prime example of that there.

5 - Inter-Player Characterization

This one is probably the hardest to nail down. Here we try to predict how two move sets would play out, and see if they match the characterization.

I'm not giving an example for this one, it's way to hard to do off the cuff.

6 - Inventive Characterization

Here we see what we can do to add to the characterization they have in their home series that they could not express until they were added in Smash.

Captain Falcon is more or less entirely defined by this level of characterization. Most everything he does is made up for Smash, yet his personality rings true.


I wonder, what do you think of the characterization of Smash? Think you can break down a character and see how they do with this breakdown?

 

[superprincess]

Samus is a bit of an odd one to me. A lot of suggestions people have I just don't think translate to Smash very well.

Like you say she has her arm canon so she shouldn't punch or kick, but I don't think you can build a good Moveset exclusively using her arm canon, at least not with a character as tall and limber as Samus. Like I guess Mii Gunner does uses it more and maybe that's what people want, but I also don't think Mii Gunner is a particular fun Moveset, and Samus's larger frame doesn't lend itself well to little pew pews imo.

The other suggestion is giving her other beams, but where would you give her those beams? Beams aren't different attacks for Samus, they're just upgrades over the previous beams and are all used the same way. Some games let you switch between them but they are still performed the same thing and changes are primarily for puzzle solving and accessing new areas.


Dread stuff would help freshen things up, and I do want the counter. And updating her momentum and speed to match closer to how she feels in Dread would be great,. But I don't think that stuff lend themselves to normal attacks very well, and her specials already cover her most iconic attacks (which is what special attacks should be)

But some added flourishes could help, like give her F-Smash an explosive effect to reference the diffusion beams, and like the kicks because it shows off Samus's more athletic side. I just don't think an overhaul of Samus's kit is the answer.

I don't think Samus should be all projectiles like Megaman is. After all, that wouldn't even be accurate anymore, as she's gotten more physical in her own series recently. But the fashion in which she punches and kicks feels wrong. When she swings her arm cannon at enemies or kicks them in Dread, there's a certain weight to it. Smash Samus feels like a plastic robot in comparison. Like I'm okay with a kick being the forward tilt, that's common, but her little tiptoe pirouette kick just feels awkward. And don't even get me started on the up tilt and up air. What even is that up air supposed to be?

There's also the Smash attacks and forward air being explosions out of the arm cannon which just... never happens. And I don't think it fits her design either. When you look at Samus' sturdy design and her bulky armor, you don't think a bunch of little multi-hits. That's more of Zelda's thing.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I will say that the reason Samus feels floaty was because she was trying to emulate the controls in Super Metroid. It explains the floaty jumps and the stilted movement.

UP tilt was shared by Captain Falcon, making it a cloned moved by... One of them at least.

I don't know why up air is the way it is.

 

[Kirbeh]

I don't think Samus should be all projectiles like Megaman is. After all, that wouldn't even be accurate anymore, as she's gotten more physical in her own series recently. But the fashion in which she punches and kicks feels wrong. When she swings her arm cannon at enemies or kicks them in Dread, there's a certain weight to it. Smash Samus feels like a plastic robot in comparison. Like I'm okay with a kick being the forward tilt, that's common, but her little tiptoe pirouette kick just feels awkward. And don't even get me started on the up tilt and up air. What even is that up air supposed to be?

There's also the Smash attacks and forward air being explosions out of the arm cannon which just... never happens. And I don't think it fits her design either. When you look at Samus' sturdy design and her bulky armor, you don't think a bunch of little multi-hits. That's more of Zelda's thing.

Her up air has always been sort of goofy looking and hard to place as to what's it's actually supposed to be (my best guess is it's just meant to be an upside down version of the drill kick style move Sakurai gave to a lot of early Smash Bros. characters.)

What's wrong with her other kicks though? While I do prefer ZSS' standard roundhouse, the power suited version just uses a reverse roundhouse. And her up tilt is just an ax kick. I definitely think it could stand to be faster to improve the feel of the impact but otherwise I think it's fine as far as the move itself goes.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I don't know why up air is the way it is.

Because SPEEN.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

My original point was this:


It seemed like you were disputing that, saying that the former group being "Smash staples" makes them more worth including than the latter group. Which I don't think is necessarily the case when you consider the merits that other characters could bring, on a case-by-case basis of course.
Point is, people often tend to give passes to veterans for not being the most impactful characters outside of Smash, but treat other legacy characters who aren't in Smash like they're nobodies. Which I don't think is the right way to approach it.

Sorry for the late response.
I wasn't disputing the worth of less popular newcomers vs less popular veterans, just pointing out that where they originated from played no role in making some characters Smash staples/mainstays/fan-favorites/whatever we want to call them.
Not many people or even almost nobody knew who Ness, Marth, Roy, the Ice Climbers or Mr. G&W were, often times not even Samus or Captain Falcon. These characters became popular because people enjoyed to play as them in Smash, even if they didn't know who they were.

And yes, ultimately I think that it's a little silly to compare characters who are already in to characters who aren't in terms of their perceived impact on gaming as a whole, as if Smash itself never existed.
Falcon and Ness already have huge player bases. In fact, they probably see more play than even some of the uber well-known Nintendo icons. Other characters like the Ice Climbers might have less dedicated players, but they add a very unique dynamic to the game that would be hard to replicate. That's where the merit in keeping these characters around lies in.
In short: once a character is already in, they clearly get judged by different metrics. That's just how it is.

 

[7NATOR]

I will also say that Smash has the perfect excuse to branch off and add new Interpertations to characters, since the Characters in Smash aren't the actual characters, but more like Figurines, and while alot of people do try to stay in character when playing with Figures, sometimes they might add some things, or maybe take away some things just because it fits with how they want to do things

Characterization is admittedly something that I study a lot in move set design thanks to Make Your Move here in Smash boards. While I never had the time to sit down and make a move set, the theory is interesting to me.

I suppose now is as good a time as any to bring up characterization. Much of what I'm going to say here is going to paraphrase one of the articles they made here.

In short, there are 6 layers of characterization:

1 - Superficial Characterization

A character should perform moves they are famous for doing. This helps to ensure that the move set feels like it was made for that character specifically. Otherwise, the move set risks feeling generic and not like the character is like specially.

If you made a move set for Link and didn't include a spin attack, it wouldn't feel like Link, and I would question what you are doing.

2 - Extrapolative Characterization

Most characters need at least some extra attacks to help fill out their entire roster of moves. Here we see characters do things that aren't necessarily cannon to them, but at least make sense for their character. Most character's more generic punches and kicks come from here.

Snake's Cypher is a good example of this in action. While Snake never used one of these occasional enemies to reach a higher place, using one like this is a good example of how clever and resourceful he could be and fits in perfectly as a part of his character.

3 - In-Practice Characterization

Here we go into the nitty-gritty of characterization. Here we try and see how moves that a character could use there moves and tools in a way that informs us of what the character is like.

Ever do a Browsercide? Taking an opponent with you is 100% something Browser would do, and thus is good example of this in action.

4 - Player Characterization

Now that we have given the player the tools, ideally we should give the player a playstyle that matches what they would want to do as that character. Here we try to guide the player to act in a way that would be similar to how the character would play.

Sonic's tendency to run away from the opponent until they get frustrated and make a mistake, only to punish them when they mess up, is rather similar to how Sonic would act and fight, so he's a prime example of that there.

5 - Inter-Player Characterization

This one is probably the hardest to nail down. Here we try to predict how two move sets would play out, and see if they match the characterization.

I'm not giving an example for this one, it's way to hard to do off the cuff.

6 - Inventive Characterization

Here we see what we can do to add to the characterization they have in their home series that they could not express until they were added in Smash.

Captain Falcon is more or less entirely defined by this level of characterization. Most everything he does is made up for Smash, yet his personality rings true.


I wonder, what do you think of the characterization of Smash? Think you can break down a character and see how they do with this breakdown?

Well I want to look at 3 Characters personally. Little Mac, Sephiroth, and Sonic

I know some people think Little Mac is not true to his games and play more like a Boss in Punch out rather than Mac himself, but all Aspects of Mac's Gameplan in Punch out (Bobing and Weaving, Punishing Openings, attacking with a Flurry of Punches, Never giving up till the end, especially if you have KO) it's all there. The Super Armor I think is the biggest thing that promotes the "Boss like idea" but I think since Attacks in Smash are much faster and not as Telegraphed as in Punch out, The Super Armor does help out

I'd also say that Fighting against Mac, I think you do feel like a Boss in Punch Out cause you throw out a Move, you get punished because Mac's Frame data is so fast or he used Super Armor, you're getting Frustrated, and then you get Ko'd, whether the regular way or through the Comeback KO Punch. However if you get him on the Ropes (like how he Tires out in Punch Out), or in Smash's case, the air, if he doesn't dodge the upcoming onslaught, he's down for the count

I will say though that Mac showcases that even if the Characterzion is on Point, like I think it is, There's more you got to do to characters to make them either mor fun to play or fun to fight against, and I think Mac might need to train more in the gym and invent some more usuable Aerials. Not good aerials mind you, but ones that allow Combos into his Specials so his Air game isn't non-Existent, or something along those lines. I'd also say that if he keeps the Super Armor on his Smash attacks, maybe he should have some more endlag on Whiff, like how in the Punch out games f you hit air, Mac has noticable more downtime then when he even hits a Block, and especially when getting a Hit

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For Sephiroth, I think for as Frustrating as it could be sometimes to play him due to his Hitboxes needing to be Sweetspotted, His lack of Up Close options, and some Hitbox Deadzones, I actually think for a Balanced Sephiroth, Sephiroth is crafted perfectfully

He has his Iconic moves like the Octoslash, Hells Gate, Scentilla, Shadow Flare, as well as using his Masumune as he should, but Sephiroth has some non-Canon moves like the Snap, His Darkness energy hand moves, he even Kicks which are things he usually doesn't do because he just use the Masumune for anything, even for Grabbing.

However I think if you want to count the Smash Canon, The Fact that he just slashed Galeem in one Hit after Galeem was having all the Heroes on the ropes as well as just One Shotting the Heroes when they do try to fight him kind of Tells Sephiroth that he could be very Relaxant in the actual Smash arena. Sephiroth thinks of himself as a god so he could do what for him are silly moves like Snapping, but because he's so overpowered compared to everyone it just works

Even the One Wing, while it is a boost, considering he doesn't gain any new Moves at all, I will assume that the power boost is not as high as Sephiroth could make it, yet it still is enough to Shake his opponents to Despair

Except for Against Cloud, who is the Only one who can Defeat him. on that note, I will say though that some of his moves like Jab, Down tilt, Side Tilt, and Back air bare some resemblance to Cloud, but they are Sephirorized, to establish the connection he has to Cloud

I also want to think that any Frustrations I might have when Playing Sephiroth might be because you need to be Pin-Point in order to play Sephiroth to Maximum efficacy, but no Player is Sephiroth himself, because Sephiroth doesn't mess up (at least, that's what he wants people to think). All those calculations in Supernova, that's the type of Mindset you need to have to play Sephiroth. if you don't have it in you, you won't make it far if you are trying to destroy everyone
------------------------------------


For Sonic, I do think the Base is there in terms of how Sonic would Fight. I don't think we will ever get the "Super Hyper rushdown" playstyle that people might want for Sonic, Including me. That's what Shadow is for, because Shadow is the one that will just destroy his opponents and be done with it. Sonic likes to show off his Speed at the forefront, so I think the Playstyle works

think though Sonic just a tad more Superficial stuff to feel more like himself. mostly things like posing after a Homing attack, and maybe making his Spindashes more Dynamic in Movement in exchange for Less Invincibility on the Actual Spindash. I think right now Sonic is annoying to Fight because even if you get into Sonic's Path of where he's going, you can't actually stop him because the Intangibility on Spindash is too great. I know enemies fold to Sonic going really fast, but I like to look at the Opponents in Smash as a mix of Actual obsticles in Sonic you need to go around, or a Boss Weakpoint you can exploit by being fast enough to punish.

I would also add in another Move that's not Spindash, even if that is Sonic's Favorite move. I think something like Sonic Wind, the Cyloop, Blue Tornado where Sonic blitzes around his opponent and lets his Wind take down his Opponents defenses would fit more how Sonic would get things done

-----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway I think the fact that we didn't get a Spirit event yet, I think this event is being delayed on Purpose. I don't know if it's Princess Peach Showtime, it could be. I do wonder if it's supposed to be revealed in Direct or something, the Spirit event

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

No.

Until we see that "Suit Up!" repeat event pop up, we're still in Shrodinger mode on a new Spirit Event.

And now it's done. It's the "Suit Up!" event.

[Event] Suit Up! - Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

www-aaaba-lp1-hac.cdn.nintendo.net

 

[SPEN18]

And yes, ultimately I think that it's a little silly to compare characters who are already in to characters who aren't in terms of their perceived impact on gaming as a whole, as if Smash itself never existed.

I guess to that I would say that you have to compare them, because every game you have to choose who gets priority and keeping more vets means less newcomers.

Not compare them as if Smash never existed, and I never said anything to that effect; actually, I said that even if you account for the popularity certain characters have gained from Smash, there are still others who compare favorably with them in terms of overall impact on Nintendo (which, if we're being honest, being one of dozens of playable characters in one fighting game doesn't really change).

The only significant boost Smash gives them in terms of impact is popularity, but again I see examples of characters not in Smash who are just as generally popular as characters who are (again, generally and within their franchises, not just within the Smash fanbase). So no, I don't think it's silly, nor do I think the answer can be universally trivialized in favor of the veterans, and I don't think you need to delve into hypotheticals in order to favor certain potential newcomers.

Falcon and Ness already have huge player bases. In fact, they probably see more play than even some of the uber well-known Nintendo icons. Other characters like the Ice Climbers might have less dedicated players, but they add a very unique dynamic to the game that would be hard to replicate. That's where the merit in keeping these characters around lies in.

And as I said at the end of my last response, their popularity within Smash and the popularity of their playstyles account for one factor that goes into rostering, but it's far from the only factor. Especially when there's nothing indicating that a fresh, new playstyle wouldn't be just as if not more popular. The characters in Smash add unique dynamics to the gameplay, but that is nothing that potential newcomers can't bring also, so it's kind of a wash there without going into specific cases.

--

Anyway, it seems we're not going to make much more headway in this discussion, at least for now; feel free to respond or not as you so choose.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

And now it's done. It's the "Suit Up!" event.

[Event] Suit Up! - Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

www-aaaba-lp1-hac.cdn.nintendo.net

I thought they confirmed that they were doing four total?

Mario Wonder, Forgotten Land, and Engage are like the only big games that have come out since that kinda need some love imo

Also they need to fix the Noah and Mio, Sentinel Pilots, and Zagreus spirits.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I guess to that I would say that you have to compare them, because every game you have to choose who gets priority and keeping more vets means less newcomers.

Not compare them as if Smash never existed, and I never said anything to that effect; actually, I said that even if you account for the popularity certain characters have gained from Smash, there are still others who compare favorably with them in terms of overall impact on Nintendo (which, if we're being honest, being one of dozens of playable characters in one fighting game doesn't really change).

The only significant boost Smash gives them in terms of impact is popularity, but again I see examples of characters not in Smash who are just as generally popular as characters who are (again, generally and within their franchises, not just within the Smash fanbase). So no, I don't think it's silly, nor do I think the answer can be universally trivialized in favor of the veterans, and I don't think you need to delve into hypotheticals in order to favor certain potential newcomers.

I just think you're underestimating what being playable does for a character. It's not just that they become more popular in general, it's that they become popular specifically with Smash fans. Of course, some do more than others, but the point is that most (if not all) veterans will be an easy sell to a large chunk of the existing Smash (not Nintendo in general) fanbase, who are also going to be the first one to adopt the next game. The Ballot proved this.
Can newcomers become as popular as the veterans? Sure, I mean even in Ultimate the vast majority of newcomers was extremely well received, but that wasn't my point...

And also, veterans clearly take less work. Just for that I'm pretty sure they don't get evaluated directly against newcomers in terms of development, aside from very specific cases like Toon Link replacing Young Link. In fact, aside from Ultimate, the philosophy regarding veterans seems to be that they try to add as many as they can until they run out of time.

We can agree to disagree though, even if I'm still not sure we actually disagree lol

 

[SuperSmashFan99]

I think that the characters in the "Everyone is Here!" trailer shown before the words "Everyone is Here!" pop up are likely to likely to return in the game.

 

[NintenRob]

I think that the characters in the "Everyone is Here!" trailer shown before the words "Everyone is Here!" pop up are likely to likely to return in the game.

An interesting thought but I don't think so. They were very purposeful when they revealed certain characters. Peeps like Ice Climbers, Cloud, Pokemon Trainer and maybe Corrin felt like they were intentionally shown early to get you thinking and building hype before dropping the bombshell with Snake (followed by Pichu)

 

[Diddy Kong]

View attachment 385984

This was a fun challenge and honestly better illustrates how much Smash squanders Zelda's potential when it comes to characters

hits blunt

What if the ideal Zelda newcomer is a composite character between the abilities of Impa and Master Kohga and they are eachothers Echo?

I'm saying it solves a lot of issues on who to pick. You get both a legacy and a new character. Also revamp Ganondorf of course.

 

[Gengar84]

hits blunt

What if the ideal Zelda newcomer is a composite character between the abilities of Impa and Master Kohga and they are eachothers Echo?

I'm saying it solves a lot of issues on who to pick. You get both a legacy and a new character. Also revamp Ganondorf of course.

I’m not sure they really work as echoes. Kohga has a very different build than Impa and is more the comic relief character with over the top goofy animations. Impa is either a stoic warrior, wise elder, or spunky ninja girl depending on the incarnation. None of these really fit Kohga’s style despite both being related to the Sheikah. At least going by their Warriors movesets, I always thought Kohga played a lot more similarly to Zant than he did Impa.

 

[Oracle Link]

Why would they ever do this when Smash itself already exists and has Zelda characters in it?

I mean the roster is fine, if pretty standard, and some of these characters I would like to see in Smash, but I don't see the point of an exclusive Zelda Smash spinoff. Making a whole new game just so C-list characters of a specific series can exist in the Smash Bros engine seems pretty extra.

Also, as much as I'd like some "no-chance" characters from my favorite series, I don't know where the fun would be in speculating about characters' chances if anyone and everyone can make it in. Like if there was a Mario one I'm sure characters like Birdo and Waluigi would be in so at that point...

It doesnt have to be a smash game it can be one but it can also be another fighter (albeit on the more casual side)
Also the generic enemys and bosses are in cause i would really like those in a fighter to better make my own lil stories with it!
(I mean hyrule warriors has the enemies in the form ofg well enemies this is diffrent in a fighter tho!)

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

One thing I miss and hope Smash 6 delivers is more weird/niche character inclusions. I understand the big names have more of an impact when they're announced, but the weirdos can be just as influential longterm. Ultimate didn't really deliver on this front... Plant was pretty much the only wacky newcomer. Richter was pretty unknown and unexpected but his moveset is just a copy of Simon's, and while Terry was also kind of obscure and unexpected, he's just another fighting game character whose moveset is almost 1:1 with that of his original game.

I want more obscure characters with weird movesets. Stuff like Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt Duo. Come to think of it, most of Smash 4's newcomers were like that. I mean, at the time, who expected Rosalina and Luma to join the fight as a duo character over series mainstays like Toad and (seemingly) Bowser Jr. or fan favorites like Geno, Paper Mario and Waluigi? Then Bowser Jr. joined and defied expectations by essentially being "Junior Clown Car: the moveset feat. Koopalings". There was also Robin getting in over Chrom with tomes and a Levin Sword in tow and a pretty unique durability gimmick, and Shulk who (at the time) was from a really niche and brought stat manipulation to Smash.

Ultimate's newcomers all being fan requests and/or prolific third parties is fine, I just wish some obscure fighters were also given a chance. The big names are exciting to see, but as time goes on, the hype naturally fades and sometimes you're left with a somewhat... meh moveset. Look at Ridley and Banjo for example. Hopefully the next game tries to strike a balance.

I agree but I also don't.
I think Ultimate added plenty of wacky characters (Plant, Steve, Banjo, K. Rool and Isabelle are definitely so), and in general the weirdest movesets in the series (Hero, Kazuya, Min Min and Steve again come to mind in particular, but it's not like more straightforward ones like Incineroar's or Sephiroth's lack a strong identity).
Obscure and weird characters are definitely fun, but the amount of... unorthodoxness (is that a word?) that they usually bring with them definitely hasn't been missed, at least not on my part.

Of course the best part about surprise characters is seeing how they get adapted and modernized, but the Rare characters in particular have gotten a pretty big facelift, not much unlike Megaman or Pit back then. K. Rool got the sumo and feral angles ingrained into his personality, and B-K are way more slapstick than they've ever been.
Even still, you already knew to some extent that K. Rool was going to throw the crown and Megaman was going to go pew pew pew; guys like Duck Hunt or Piranha Plant have even more re-elaboration going on and just catch you totally off-guard, but after the dust has settled it's mostly about if you click with a particular playstyle or not.

...okay, I've rambled.
Even more weird characters in the next game pls

 

[DarthEnderX]

I thought they confirmed that they were doing four total?

The 4th event was going to tie in with the announcement of Smash 6 and the Super Switch! But that got delayed!

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I thought they confirmed that they were doing four total?

They did.

I'm saying we're done for this week.

Now to wait until the week after next.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The 4th event was going to tie in with the announcement of Smash 6 and the Super Switch! But that got delayed!

This is also my crackpot theory and I'm not going to change it until further evidence

 

[Megadoomer]

I thought they confirmed that they were doing four total?

Mario Wonder, Forgotten Land, and Engage are like the only big games that have come out since that kinda need some love imo

Also they need to fix the Noah and Mio, Sentinel Pilots, and Zagreus spirits.

Maybe it's some sort of ESRB issue? I know that Fortnite had some sort of age restriction update that made it so you can't use certain skins in certain modes; maybe Smash has run into a similar issue where they can't advertise games that have a higher ESRB rating within an E10 rated game, and even mentioning the game's name is somehow considered to be advertising it. (I know that they removed the series logos from the Fighters Pass list around the time that Byleth was announced, and it led to silly Mii costume announcements like Smash Bros. x TRAVIS)

Xenoblade 3, Hades, and 13 Sentinels are rated T (and their spirits don't list their game of origin), whereas Tears of the Kingdom, Pikmin 4, Splatoon 3, and Pokemon Scarlet are rated E10 or under. (and their spirits do list their game of origin)

It's nonsensical if it's true, since it would mean that Nintendo couldn't mention the names of their own series like Xenoblade, Earthbound, or Fire Emblem, but I'm assuming that it wasn't a mistake. (since it would mean that it somehow got overlooked after multiple updates in the case of the Noah and Mio spirit)

Hopefully, whatever the problem is, it gets undone or sorted out by the time of the next Smash game.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I'm sure the Spirits names thing is weird ERSB stuff going on. Does anyone know how it is in the japanese version?

But yeah, what a nonsensical rule.
The best part is that Smash can mention Xenoblade 1 and Xenoblade 2, but not Xenoblade 3. And they can mention the Doom Slayer but not Doom.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Yeah, the spirits issue is ridiculous, and why I feel the next Smash game needs that T rating. Metroid is another one of their own series they can’t mention under the current situation.

Though this may mean the end of the road for M-rated characters in and outside of Smash, at least in a playable role. Be prepared for a lack of M-rated content next game.

 

[Gengar84]

Okay, I think I’ll have to agree at this point that Smash would really benefit from a higher age rating. It’s kind of ridiculous that they can’t even reference their own games by name. I get they want a lower rating to appeal to a wider audience but I feel like it’s doing more harm than good.

I am curious if this kills the chances of seeing any newcomers from M rated games in the future. Xenoblade 3 is only rated T and it still can’t be called out. That would really limit the pool if we could only get characters from E rated games from here on. I don’t think that’s the case but it is worrying.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I'm not sure how this is going to work out. If it's just about not being able to mention the series by name, I think they can find some roundabout way to avoid it. For example they could just use the series emblems, without mentioning them by name. It's silly but at the end of the day it's something that in-game only affects menus.
If I understood this correctly, while they can't mention Bayonetta the series, there's nothing wrong with using Bayonetta the character as long as she herself doesn't do anything M rated.

One other thing Nintendo could do is some good old lobbying to change the rule. I mean, it's not like it makes any sense anyways.

 

[NintenRob]

I do wonder if base game vs DLC will make a difference. Like the logic being you can account for base game content in the age rating on box cover but each DLC item is considered it's own thing?

 

[Shinuto]

It feels super odd that three of the four final spirit events came out basically one after another and now the final fourth one is just...not here.

 

[Perkilator]

Yeah, at this point, Smash could benefit from going back to a T-rating if the ratings boards won't even let Nintendo mention their own franchises under the pretense of a T-rating.

 

[Shinuto]

Yeah, at this point, Smash could benefit from going back to a T-rating if the ratings boards won't even let Nintendo mention their own franchises under the pretense of a T-rating.

Like would E-10/Japan's equivalent REALLY be that necessary at this point for sales or brand reputation or whatever? It just brings problems for little if at all benefit.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Steve, Banjo, K. Rool and Isabelle

Hero, Kazuya, Min Min and Steve again

That is really not what superprincess means. "Weird" requires them to be...way more obscure than the player character of the best selling game of all time for one thing.

 

[Gengar84]

I think Nintendo has shown that they’re willing to let their main characters star in T rated games. Look at the first Hyrule Warriors. There’s some content in that game I wouldn’t have expected Nintendo to be cool with in a Zelda game before that point. I think the bigger question is whether the Pokemon Company are okay with their characters appearing in a game with a higher age rating. I’m not sure if there’s been a T rated Pokemon game yet.

 

[AreJay25]

I think Nintendo has shown that they’re willing to let their main characters star in T rated games. Look at the first Hyrule Warriors. There’s some content in that game I wouldn’t have expected Nintendo to be cool with before that point. I think the bigger question is whether the Pokemon Company are okay with their characters appearing in a game with a higher age rating. I’m not sure if there’s been a T rated Pokemon game yet.

Well the Pokemon Company started overseeing the entire franchise in 2000. Melee and Brawl both released afterwards and were rated T (granted, Melee came out before E10+ was even a thing, but still).

Sure, times change and all that, but considering things wouldn't really be all that different, I can't imagine they'd be so stubborn that they'd oppose it. And, I mean... Pokemon's already in the same game with franchises like Metal Gear, Bayonetta and Persona, the bridge has essentially already been crossed lol.

 

[Dukefire]

An interesting thought but I don't think so. They were very purposeful when they revealed certain characters. Peeps like Ice Climbers, Cloud, Pokemon Trainer and maybe Corrin felt like they were intentionally shown early to get you thinking and building hype before dropping the bombshell with Snake (followed by Pichu)

That magic of surprise cannot be replicated again if another Smash Bros game is announced.

 

[Shinuto]

So what does anyone think the reason is behind this delay of the final spirit event?