Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SKX31]

Hey, cheer up! What we've got is pretty good.
-Lord (Sword)
-Lord (Sword)
-Lord (Sword)
-Lord (Sword)
-Mercenary Lord (BEEG Sword)
-Avatar (Mage/Sword)
-Avatar (Dragon/Sword)
-Avatar (Sword/Axe/Lance/Bow)

...

Point proven.

IMHO it becomes easier to differentiate them if one takes a different view:

- Annoying tippers - even if they're inconsistent - all over the place.
- Spamming Aerials all over the place. She's more consistent too. Gah.
- Annoying because he wants to be in the opponents' face all the time (Not - just - because he's one of the matchups Cloud really struggles at.)
- Bit better than Roy, but still annoying and jesus ****ing christ he's fast like Captain Falcon with a sword on the ground. Oh and he's got Aether for suicide kills too.
- Kinda manageable, but really annoying to deal with because Aether has Super Armor. Gah.
- Actually kinda fun, although the really good Robins consistently hit annoying Arc-Fire -> Smash Attack nons- WTF when did (s)he find the time to charge Thoron?
- Kinda annoying Dragon Lunge spam. Oh and again Aerials. Multi-hit F Smash too.
- Distance Demon, can be annoying if (s)he knows how to space and, oh right, why does this character have like a hundred anti-airs?

The theme here is very subtle.

(TBF, I'm a Cloud main, so I use Climbhazzard at least 10 times in a match. Must be irritating for the opponent. )

Let's not kid ourselves, whatever the next game does, some people will just keep playing Ultimate, just like some are still playing Melee after 20 years. But that's no reason to hold the future of the franchise back.

It'll depend a lot on how Smash 6 fares really. TwiceEXE touched on it, but it's worth noting that Brawl's release did actually stifle Melee's playerbase for at least a year:

After Nintendo released its newest Smash Bros. game in March 2008, Melee players questioned the survivability of their game as much of the community moved on to the new title. These fears turned out to be true, as 2008, commonly known as the Dark Age of Melee, became completely dominated by the Brawl scene; not a single Melee major was held for around a year, and the few small tournaments held registered paltry attendance numbers compared to those of just the year before. The Melee scene remained stagnant until Alukard held Revival of Melee in Nanuet, New York, in March 2009.

This tournament was the first American event to feature Melee's best players from across the country (such as Mew2King, Mango, PC Chris, and Azen) since Pound 3 in February 2008, and was the beginning of a gradual revival in tournament attendance back to pre-Brawl levels. The renewed surge in attendance was aided by the fact that many Melee players disliked the slower, less combo-oriented gameplay of Brawl and returned to the former game shortly after its release.

I honestly think something similar would need to happen to Smash 6 - where people return to Ultimate after a while (or another "Meta Knight Ban" scenario - it did stifle long term confidence in Brawl since it splintered the scene - and the Committee that banned Meta Knight disbanded a couple years after, rendering the ban mostly null and void.) for Ultimate to retain as much relative influence in the Smash scene as Melee's had post-split. Oh and Ultimate would need better online (likely via YUZU or something similar becoming to Ultimate what Dolphin is to Melee).

Of course, some will stick with Ultimate no matter what with Smash 6, I'm just not sure if it's going to be in large enough numbers.

Aren't both MVC2 and 3 played competively?

I believe so, but not with 10K+ spectators like Melee's biggest matches get regularily. Melee's playerbase is also AFAIK larger than MvC 2 and 3 thanks to stuff like SmashLadder (for the low / mid-level Melee players) / Slippi.

They were, not sure how much they see play these days. I'm more than certain both are played a LOT in dedicated locals. Groups who never stopped playing their game. Both are hugely beloved titles.

Smash has this weird thing that Melee is the only one with 'staying power' but I feel like Ultimate will have some serious lasting power due to the sheer scale of it.

64 still has a small, but active, playerbase as well.

Brawl's playerbase mostly transitioned to -> 4's playerbase , which in turn transitioned to-> Ultimate's (so far at least). We'll just have to see what happens with the eventual Smash 6 in the long term future.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I hope the next Smash game cuts all the fan favs and replaces them with FE characters to see if you really believe newcomers are always more exciting than veterans.

Alright sure, and if Sakurai quits and gets his entire team replaced by EA the game will probably also suck. We're discussing realistic scenarios.

People play Melee specifically because of the engine/gameplay.

And people will play Ultimate specifically because of the roster.

 

[ahemtoday]

Hi, everybody! I've been lurking for a while, but I finally decided to make an account to weigh in on this Smash 6 discussion.

I definitely think Smash 6 is in a tough spot. It's pretty safe to assume that we're not getting "Everyone is Here" again, and "Almost Everyone is Here" is not really going to work as a selling point.

Honestly, though, this is kind of a good opportunity. While I was super anti-cut prior to Ultimate... well, now Ultimate exists and has basically completely sated that desire for the time being. Right now, I'm sort of in the mood for something new and different from the Smash series, that isn't really tied down by what came before. But I'm not sure the general public shares that opinion. A roster with fewer characters than the last game is kind of a hard sell.

I have an idea, though. I have no clue how likely this is to happen, but I've never particularly cared about that sorta thing. If I was making the new Smash, I'd make it...

Super Smash Villains.

I honestly do think a themed roster like that would be the best way to turn the situation around. It puts a spin on having less characters by making it into its own neat thing. It makes the cut of each individual character feel less bad (it's not that they weren't good enough, they just weren't a villain). It being kind of a spinoff but not really makes for a good excuse to experiment with game mechanics. Also, there's just a bit of novelty in a Smash game where not even Mario is on the roster.

And think of how many newcomers there could be! There are, like, eleven villains in Smash currently. You can count differently, but it's not much more than that. That means, what, 81 characters or so aren't coming back? Imagine the amount of newcomers you could do with that! Obviously, it's not going to be "every character cut means we get a new fighter", but even if we assume veterans take a quarter of the work a new fighter does (which seems a little low), that's still twenty new characters just from the resources we save by cutting most of the roster.

 

[Koopaul]

I don't think there's too many characters necessarily as there are too many reminders that A. The game originally had more of a Nintendo focus, B. The fanbase did too, and C. Moveset potential/recency can take priority over adding iconic characters in order for Ultimate to be a true celebration of gaming. You think the Ice Climbers would belong in some elite gaming hall of fame?

I don't think Smash necessarily needs to be an elite gaming hall of fame. I was commenting on how many characters seem to get forgotten over time because they are burried beneath dozens of other characters. One time I played with a friend on random and he got Duck Hunt. He said "Oh. I forgot he was in this game." It's as if it doesn't even matter that there are this many characters. We start to forget some even exist.

There is a phenomena where the more options you present someone the less likely they are to try out new things. They become overwhelmed. There's various studies in psychology about the paradox of choice and I think this applies to Smash. A more honed and curated roster might get people to notice, try, and appreciate each character in the game.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

- Kinda manageable, but really annoying to deal with because Aether has Super Armor. Gah.

Sword DP is the best.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I don't know man. I can't even think about a new Smash game right now because I'll just think it's inferior to Smash Ultimate.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Hi, everybody! I've been lurking for a while, but I finally decided to make an account to weigh in on this Smash 6 discussion.

I definitely think Smash 6 is in a tough spot. It's pretty safe to assume that we're not getting "Everyone is Here" again, and "Almost Everyone is Here" is not really going to work as a selling point.

Honestly, though, this is kind of a good opportunity. While I was super anti-cut prior to Ultimate... well, now Ultimate exists and has basically completely sated that desire for the time being. Right now, I'm sort of in the mood for something new and different from the Smash series, that isn't really tied down by what came before. But I'm not sure the general public shares that opinion. A roster with fewer characters than the last game is kind of a hard sell.

I have an idea, though. I have no clue how likely this is to happen, but I've never particularly cared about that sorta thing. If I was making the new Smash, I'd make it...

Super Smash Villains.

I honestly do think a themed roster like that would be the best way to turn the situation around. It puts a spin on having less characters by making it into its own neat thing. It makes the cut of each individual character feel less bad (it's not that they weren't good enough, they just weren't a villain). It being kind of a spinoff but not really makes for a good excuse to experiment with game mechanics. Also, there's just a bit of novelty in a Smash game where not even Mario is on the roster.

And think of how many newcomers there could be! There are, like, eleven villains in Smash currently. You can count differently, but it's not much more than that. That means, what, 81 characters or so aren't coming back? Imagine the amount of newcomers you could do with that! Obviously, it's not going to be "every character cut means we get a new fighter", but even if we assume veterans take a quarter of the work a new fighter does (which seems a little low), that's still twenty new characters just from the resources we save by cutting most of the roster.

Sadly, there is one flaw with your idea: for some reason, Nintendo and/or Sakurai hates adding villains to Smash. Friendly reminder that Ridley and King K. Rool only got in because of the Ballot.

 

[DuskFleur]

I can't imagine thinking about the next Smash game when we still have several DLCs left to go...

 

[3BitSaurus]

Honestly, this talk reminds me of when Max Dood said that Smash fans should "enjoy this while it lasts, because it's the golden age of Smash"... and I realized that, while tecnically true, there's a lot of fearmongering in this sentiment.

Before Ultimate, Brawl was the best-selling Smash game. Hell, to a big segment of our community, Melee was the "golden age of Smash" for a loooong time.

I think a good chunk of this sentiment comes from a place of people thinking "this is my favorite character's last chance"... when it most likely isn't. Way I see it, that's pretty much what has people here screaming to high heaven "Expand! Expand!".

If we get less characters in Smash 6... that's life. Whether or not the game lives up to expectations is another thing entirely. I've made no secret that there's still a lot of stuff I'd like to see adressed (veteran reworks, to name one thing), but for the time, I'm just enjoying it.

Not "while it lasts". Just enjoying it. Because Ultimate will be remembered forever and will stay with you forever unless you lose your copy. Regardless of what the future brings.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I can't imagine thinking about the next Smash game when we still have several DLCs left to go...

Talking about those DLCs just leads us to echo chambers where we speak of the same characters over and over.

So any way we can avoid repetition is good speculation.

 

[TwiceEXE]

Was there every any follow-up to the Amiibo dates thing? The last I heard the American twitter account removed the "Fall 2021" banner but the Canada account kept it up.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't think Smash necessarily needs to be an elite gaming hall of fame

I wasn't saying that. I was just posting my take on Smash having too many of something, combined with you replying to a post commenting on Smash's "celebration of gaming" status. The roster is just too lopsided for that, and the next 4 characters being Doomguy, Dante, Sora, and CJ won't fix that.

 

[SharkLord]

Talking about those DLCs just leads us to echo chambers where we speak of the same characters over and over.

So any way we can avoid repetition is good speculation.

I mean, we were having some pretty nice Falcom talk earlier before the roster cuts talk popped up.

Yeah, I'm kinda jilted. The topic was something I'm really getting into, and then the roster cuts shove it out of the way. Not very fun.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I mean, we were having some pretty nice Falcom talk earlier before the roster cuts talk popped up.

Yeah, I'm kinda jilted. The topic was something I'm really getting into, and then the roster cuts shove it out of the way. Not very fun.

Be the change you want to see and bring it back then.

 

[SharkLord]

Be the change you want to see and bring it back then.

Easier said than done...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Was there every any follow-up to the Amiibo dates thing? The last I heard the American twitter account removed the "Fall 2021" banner but the Canada account kept it up.

The Japan account showed the amiibo dates but didn't mention Fall at all.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I mean, we were having some pretty nice Falcom talk earlier before the roster cuts talk popped up.

Yeah, I'm kinda jilted. The topic was something I'm really getting into, and then the roster cuts shove it out of the way. Not very fun.

See, there's a reason for that:

Adol has a sword, Rean has a sword and they're both anime, so we could transition really smoothly from "anime swordsmen" to "Smash 6 cuts".

...Honestly though, I get it. That's pretty much how I felt with the Ryza leaks, even though they were fake from the start.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Easier said than done...

I'd help if I actually knew **** about Falcom and played their games.

All I really had when it comes to knowledge was that one friend in school who showed me one of the older Ys games during a lunch break.

Still better than what most of the people here got, I guess, but still, it's hardly anything to contribute.

 

[TwiceEXE]

The Japan account showed the amiibo dates but didn't mention Fall at all.

They showed specific dates or just a general timeframe?

 

[ahemtoday]

I know nothing about Ys beyond the fact that it exists. In a situation like that, it kinda falls to the character's moveset to impress me.

So on that note, what could Adol bring to the table in terms of a moveset?

 

[Shroob]

So about Falc----Oh we're doing roster cuts again despite still having 4 dlc characters left and the next game probably not being for another 3-4 years at most?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So about Falc----Oh we're doing roster cuts again despite still having 4 dlc characters left and the next game probably not being for another 3-4 years at most?

View attachment 290790

Looks like you cut yourself from the discussion then

 

[zeldasmash]

Aren't both MVC2 and 3 played competively?

They are, UMvC3 moreso then MvC2. Unfortunately, not a ton of tournaments have them because of MvCI and it's reception. Though UMvC3 has had a bit of resurgence.

 

[Shroob]

I know nothing about Ys beyond the fact that it exists. In a situation like that, it kinda falls to the character's moveset to impress me.

So on that note, what could Adol bring to the table in terms of a moveset?

One thing I've learned is that Ys is pretty much the first Action RPG, in the fact that battles are more akin to how 2D Zelda works and not traditional turn-based, but you still have stats ala RPG mechanics.

My knowledge of Ys is very brief, considering I really just started doing research on the company literally yesterday, but if it were up to me personally, perhaps we tackle a prospect of RPGs that Smash has yet to consider in "Leveling up"?

 

[Flik]

Chrom would need some changes, because without Roy's fire, he just feels bland and empty.

If only Sakurai realizes that he can also use a Spear/Javelin instead of just going "Marth+Ike lol", as if he never looked at FE Awakening past the first or second chapter.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Easier said than done...

Let me try to help! Um...

I watched that documentary posted earlier. I do recommend others give it a watch if they have the time. Their inclusion would make sense to you if you did.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If only Sakurai realizes that he can also use a Spear/Javelin instead of just going "Marth+Ike lol", as if he never looked at FE Awakening past the first or second chapter.

He probably would have had those were he chosen as a full-fledged fighter rather than an Echo Fighter. Plus, isn't the Up B an actual reference to an Awakening cutscene or something?

But honestly, Byleth pulls out the idea better because, well, characters in Three Houses can use basically anything. And Byleth decided to bring the weapons of all the House Leaders because why not?

 

[SharkLord]

Let me try to help! Um...

I watched that documentary posted earlier. I do recommend others give it a watch if they have the time. Their inclusion would make sense to you if you did.

Also this happens

It makes more sense in context, trust me.

One thing I've learned is that Ys is pretty much the first Action RPG, in the fact that battles are more akin to how 2D Zelda works and not traditional turn-based, but you still have stats ala RPG mechanics.

My knowledge of Ys is very brief, considering I really just started doing research on the company literally yesterday, but if it were up to me personally, perhaps we tackle a prospect of RPGs that Smash has yet to consider in "Leveling up"?

Actually, Ys is pretty low on the grinding. Dunno about the other games, but I've never had to go back and intentionally grind in VIII (Though that may have something to do with my "Kill everything in sight" playstyle...)

I know nothing about Ys beyond the fact that it exists. In a situation like that, it kinda falls to the character's moveset to impress me.

So on that note, what could Adol bring to the table in terms of a moveset?

Copypasting from another thread:
Bump System - In Ys I, II, and IV, Adol dealt damage by ramming into opponents from any direction that wasn't the front. This could manifest in an underpowered version of the Impact Run, though it may not be the best mechanic in a game like Smash. Personally, I'd reference it by giving an important Spirit Impact Run, preferably Dogi.

Mobile Jab - In Ys III, V, VI and Origins, as well as III's remake, Oath in Felghana, the gameplay shifts to a more Zelda-like style. This could be represented with a mobile jab, in the vein of Mega Man, Min Min, and Steve. I also saw a suggestion that he could also have a charge attack, where he moves by dodging during the charge, though I'll have to double-check.

Three Weapons - In VI, Origins, and to a lesser extent, Oath in Felghana, the gameplay also integrates three different weapons for Adol to have. One attack deals slashing damage, another deals striking, and a third deals piercing. This could give Adol a stance swap system, like with Pokemon Trainer and Min Min. Adol's would probably lay somewhere between the two, leaning more toward Min Min.

Flash Guard and Flash Move - In Ys SEVEN, VIII, and IX, as well as the remake of IV, Memories of Celceta, Adol and his allies can pull off advanced defensive moves. Guarding at the last moment triggers a Flash Guard, negating all damage and boosting his attack power, while dodging at the last moment triggers a Flash Move, slowing down time. In Smash these could be simplified to activate during Perfect Shields and similarly-timed dodges, boosting damage and speed, respectively.

I also had an idea where his jab and tilt usually give him momentum, but change when he gets close to the opponent, referencing both the active attack button games and the bump system.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I would want a deluxe port of Ultimate for the next Nintendo console, add few new fighters, a new area in World of Light (where you can fight and unlock fighters who were previously DLC) with a new boss, and new Palutena Guidances. A new mode would also be nice, but that’s probably pushing it.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I would want a deluxe port of Ultimate for the next Nintendo console, add few new fighters, a new area in World of Light (where you can fight and unlock fighters who were previously DLC) with a new boss, and new Palutena Guidances. A new mode would also be nice, but that’s probably pushing it.

Would new boss be a new in-universe big bad like Galeem, Dharkon and Tabuu or just someone like Duon or a boss from another game?

 

[ahemtoday]

My knowledge of Ys is very brief, considering I really just started doing research on the company literally yesterday, but if it were up to me personally, perhaps we tackle a prospect of RPGs that Smash has yet to consider in "Leveling up"?

Hmm. I don't know. Leveling up feels like it would be a sort of... messy mechanic. In that it would definitely involve a character-specific resource, and probably subtle buffs to stats under certain conditions, and probably putting more than one move on the same special button. And while that is the sort of mechanic we've been seeing lately, I find myself not in the mood for that sort of thing at the moment.

Although if it turns out nearly as goofy and fun as Hero's shenanigans, maybe I could come around.

Bump System - In Ys I, II, and IV, Adol dealt damage by ramming into opponents from any direction that wasn't the front. This could manifest in an underpowered version of the Impact Run, though it may not be the best mechanic in a game like Smash. Personally, I'd reference it by giving an important Spirit Impact Run, preferably Dogi.

Sounds to me like you could do a mechanic sorta like Back Slash to represent this.

Mobile Jab - In Ys III, V, VI and Origins, as well as III's remake, Oath in Felghana, the gameplay shifts to a more Zelda-like style. This could be represented with a mobile jab, in the vein of Mega Man, Min Min, and Steve. I also saw a suggestion that he could also have a charge attack, where he moves by dodging during the charge, though I'll have to double-check.

Well, if Mobile Jab Theory pans out, Adol's chances just skyrocketed!

That charge thing sounds interesting, though. It sounds a little like dodging during Joker's Gun. I could see that being fun to use. If you're hungry for a gimmick, you could put that on all his smash attacks, though I don't know if that would line up with how it is in Ys.

Three Weapons - In VI, Origins, and to a lesser extent, Oath in Felghana, the gameplay also integrates three different weapons for Adol to have. One attack deals slashing damage, another deals striking, and a third deals piercing. This could give Adol a stance swap system, like with Pokemon Trainer and Min Min. Adol's would probably lay somewhere between the two, leaning more toward Min Min.

Ehhh. I've never really been sold on movesets with weapon-switching. Or transformation characters in general, to be honest. I think Min Min can kinda get away with it because all her weapon attacks are basically just different flavors of punch, but weapon switching is just kinda one of those things that screams "fan moveset" more than... "actual moveset".

Flash Guard and Flash Move - In Ys SEVEN, VIII, and IX, as well as the remake of IV, Memories of Celceta, Adol and his allies can pull off advanced defensive moves. Guarding at the last moment triggers a Flash Guard, negating all damage and boosting his attack power, while dodging at the last moment triggers a Flash Move, slowing down time. In Smash these could be simplified to activate during Perfect Shields and similarly-timed dodges, boosting damage and speed, respectively.

This could be interesting. We've had bait-and-punish-based characters before, but if Adol had this mechanic it could be a big neon sign pointing at that playstyle, which means he could lean into that a lot more heavily.



As I've been talking about this, I think I realized that what excites me about a Smash moveset aren't big, overarching unique mechanics. Rather, I find myself a lot more interested in fighters just having simple but fun-to-use special moves. What would Adol's specials be, you think?

 

[Shroob]

Can someone remind me of something?


I remember people were tying the Gil costume to Steve by some tentative connection, but I don't remember what exactly. Sort of a "Oh, it's obvious why this came with Steve", even if it were just a coincidence.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Can someone remind me of something?


I remember people were tying the Gil costume to Steve by some tentative connection, but I don't remember what exactly. Sort of a "Oh, it's obvious why this came with Steve", even if it were just a coincidence.

I think it had something to do with upgradable equipment. Someone else could probably answer better.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think it had something to do with upgradable equipment. Someone else could probably answer better.

Treasure as well? Tower of Druaga has you collect treasure each floor

 

[Shroob]

I think it had something to do with upgradable equipment. Someone else could probably answer better.

Well if that's the case.


Ain't Tales of Symphonia an Action RPG?

And Ys is the grandaddy of all action RPGs?

 

[SirBillyBob]

Can someone remind me of something?


I remember people were tying the Gil costume to Steve by some tentative connection, but I don't remember what exactly. Sort of a "Oh, it's obvious why this came with Steve", even if it were just a coincidence.

Might've been the coincidence that Gil's sword is blue. Diamond armor has a blue sword. Travis has a blue sword.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I would want a deluxe port of Ultimate for the next Nintendo console, add few new fighters, a new area in World of Light (where you can fight and unlock fighters who were previously DLC) with a new boss, and new Palutena Guidances. A new mode would also be nice, but that’s probably pushing it.

And new modes like Boss Rush, Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and making an SSE style mode or at least adding more cutscenes to WoL.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hmm. I don't know. Leveling up feels like it would be a sort of... messy mechanic

Frank West pulled it off in MvC.

Obviously, it'd work differently in Smash since West's implimentation actively took advantage of how insane the combos are for those games, but it still shows the idea is possible.

 

[I.D.]

I mean, we were having some pretty nice Falcom talk earlier before the roster cuts talk popped up.

Yeah, I'm kinda jilted. The topic was something I'm really getting into, and then the roster cuts shove it out of the way. Not very fun.

Be thankful. In this thread having several pages of productive conversation about a topic before it peacefully fades away into something different without axe-grinders ****ting it up in the process is nothing short of a resounding success.

 

[ahemtoday]

Frank West pulled it off in MvC.

Obviously, it'd work differently in Smash since West's implimentation actively took advantage of how insane the combos are for those games, but it still shows the idea is possible.

Yeah, it's definitely possible to implement, I just don't know if it'd be something I'd like to see. I'm not sure why, but lately I've found myself wanting my Smash movesets a little more simple, and a level-up mechanic is just kinda... not... that.

Although you mentioning MvC brings up an interesting point: I don't feel this way about other fighting games. Granted, I don't play a ton of those, but I've played some games with pretty big character gimmicks and I like them just fine in those. I wonder what the difference is?