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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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MooMew64

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Grubb just likes SMRPG. It ain't that deep IMO. :drshrug:

By the by, I notice so many people here seem to get upset at things deemed "fan rules" (I really dislike how much this term is thrown around lately) or people honestly trying their best to craft theories and hypothesis based off of previous trends. And my question here is...Why? This thread is literally for speculation, and doing all of that stuff is part of speculation. If we didn't try to apply theories and hypothesis to discussion, this thread would be nothing more than a "Repeat your Wishlists Over and Over" thread. Scoliosis Jones Scoliosis Jones has gone over this topic many, many, many times, but none of us are saying characters or franchises can't happen, nor are we "gatekeeping discussion" or "being smug": We're sharing our thoughts, theories, and speculation...

In the Speculation Thread. 🤨
 
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CapitaineCrash

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It seems to be more with how the content affects the rating of the Presentations and such. So it seems before having Bayo content or Persona content did not affect the rating of the Smash Presentation, but apparently due to changes in ESRB even just having something reference a title of M Rated game could cause the rating to shift to an M Rating. That's why The Logos on Fighter Pass 1 was removed and why It's X Vault Boy and X Altair and not their franchise name...and such
My theory is that the problem is the name of those framnchises and not the content itself. Assassin's creed have the word "Assassin" and Fallout is reference to nuclear bombing. This is why Smash bros X Persona wasn't a problem, the games are mature, but nothing suggest that in the title.
 

7NATOR

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My theory is that the problem is the name of those framnchises and not the content itself. Assassin's creed have the word "Assassin" and Fallout is reference to nuclear bombing. This is why Smash bros X Persona wasn't a problem, the games are mature, but nothing suggest that in the title.
It doesn't explain why the Logos were removed in the Presentation and such though. and yadda yadda
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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geno fans when the guy who jokes about geno is, in fact, making a joke the entire time

There's no malice in this post but some of you dudes really need to stop assuming every random dude on Twitter leaked classified information. :222:
To be fair, the entire thing was treated as a big maybe (even with the person who brought it up) and nobody was angry about it not being a leak.
 
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Will

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To be fair, the entire thing was treated as a big maybe (even with the person who brought it up) and nobody was angry about it not being a leak.
Eh, it was literally the only image I could have uploaded so you are right. It was originally gonna be a skeleton going back to the grave but the image uploader told me "no" so that was my next best thing.
 

CapitaineCrash

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It doesn't explain why the Logos were removed in the Presentation and such though. and yadda yadda
Ok I'm going to try to explain it better. In the past we had Smash bros X Persona, who wasn't censored and Persona is a M rated franchises. But then we had Smash bros X Assassin's creed who was censored and Smash bros X Fallout too. The thing with ESRB is that if you have strong language in your trailer, you will get a M rating. In the Smash bros X Persona, nothing suggest that it would be a problem, because Persona isn't a strong word. Assassin and Fallout maybe are consider strong word for the ESRB so this is why they would censor it.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but honestly I don't see why suddenly having M rated logo would be a problem for the ESRB. I guess we'll see how thing go if we have more M rated mii costumes on the next wave.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Pass 2 wasn't even happening at the point Reggie, a man who no longer works at Nintendo, said the new worlds comment.

Do you guys really think that comment was talking about pass 2?
Reggie wasn’t the one who said “new worlds”. It was Sakurai when he wrapped up Byleth.

It was mainly that he was grateful that he could bring in “new worlds” and “unique gameplay” and that he “hoped he could continue to delight the fans” with the next batch of DLC.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Reggie wasn’t the one who said “new worlds”. It was Sakurai when he wrapped up Byleth.

It was mainly that he was grateful that he could bring in “new worlds” and “unique gameplay” and that he “hoped he could continue to delight the fans” with the next batch of DLC.
Ah I see. Still that's even less specific.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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My theory is that the problem is the name of those framnchises and not the content itself. Assassin's creed have the word "Assassin" and Fallout is reference to nuclear bombing. This is why Smash bros X Persona wasn't a problem, the games are mature, but nothing suggest that in the title.
No, that doesn't make sense. Assassin is used on the Punch Out stage for Richter.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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As I said before, there’s wording from people, and then there’s what we’ve gotten.

Each DLC character is from something that, thematically, brings a new series or game, a new stage, new music. That is a fact. That is observable. Demonstrable. It has continued into Challenger Pack 6.

Does it mean every character going forward will 100% follow suit? Not necessarily. I don’t think a single person has said that to be the case. I do think people have gotten defensive because such a suggestion, that this in particular could point to future picks being similar, does not lean in favor of their most wanted. I think it could point to more scenarios like it, but there’s always a chance it could be wrong. But if you want people to be convinced, make a case as to why folks should be convinced.

It’s a speculation thread. If you don’t want people to talk about patterns, discuss hypotheses or “theories”, then don’t visit the speculation thread. That’s a large part of what speculation is. If you only want to talk specifically about who you want and not speculate, there are plenty of places to do that.

I remember some time ago I was accused of trying to dictate what people can or can’t talk about (though I don’t ever remember doing that). Now it just seems like anything gets called out as a fan rule, and can’t be talked about, despite “fan rule” clearly just being a term to shut down conversation.

Almost seems like it mostly happens when I show up and Jonespost.

Feelsbadman.
 
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Iko MattOrr

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The most pessimistic side of myself thinks that we will get news around mid september and that the rumored direct either doesn't exist or is another minor thing like a partners showcase.

But at the same time I hope we will get that direct for real because the long wait is killing my interest and I'm almost forgetting that Smash even exists.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Wait he was talking about Banjo heavily in the Past?
"Poking the bear" is an expression that basically means aggravating something dangerous when angry. Things like throwing a rock at a hornet's nest. In this case, poking the bear means messing with the Geno fandom. :079:
 
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7NATOR

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"Poking the bear" is a saying that means he's deliberately stirring up chaos among the Geno fanbase.
"Poking the bear" is an expression that basically means aggravating something dangerous when angry. Things like throwing a rock at a hornet's nest. In this case, poking the bear means messing with the Geno fandom.
I've heard the saying. However in the Context of Smash I was wondering if that actually meant he was heavy on Banjo before he got in

Also I don't know if he's purposely stirring up, he seems to be a Hype fan of Geno. he's probably just hyped for him. I also don't know if he know's who's next DLC. I wonder if anyone does that's not Nintendo or Sakurai
 

Garteam

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If I may be blunt, if we're treating Smash Speculation in the same manner as we would treat science... then the entire "new worlds" theory (at least in August 2020) is bad science.

Science at its core is a dialectical process that follows a somewhat specific pattern. First, a phenomenon is observed. Next, someone presents a theory that purports to both explain why this phenomenon is occurring and what phenomenon will occur next. The theory largely stands as fact, until someone notes a phenomenon that either contradicts the proposed mechanics of the theory's explanation or could not have been predicted by the theory. At this point, the old theory is abandoned and a new one takes its place that can better account for new phenomena. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

What isn't done in science is the alteration of semantic definitions that make up the theory's terms. Take the discovery of heliocentrism. For awhile, geocentrism (the view that the Earth was the centre of the world) was widely accepted, because it explained phenomena like the sun rises and falling throughout the day. However, as the methods and tools available to study space advanced, certain phenomena that couldn't be explained by geocentrism emerged. To account for this, the theory of heliocentrism (the sun as the centre of the universe) was proposed. This theory accounted for these new phenomena that could no longer be explained by geocentrism using a new explanation and a new method of prediction.

While it was a very controversial change that many adapted to at different paces, it was the right move. It was time to take out the old and bring in the new. Even if the heliocentric view of the universe is largely being phased out by recent scientists, it was a valuable stepping stone to where we got to today. What would have definitely been the wrong move would have been redefining the meaning of "centre of the universe" to artificially extend the life of geocentrism. People can reasonably disagree about something what exactly "the centre of the universe" really means, but it would have been much less efficient and effective at advancing our understanding of space relative to developing a new theory from the ground up.

Now, the "new worlds" theory made a lot of sense when Sakurai first used the term in the Banjo presentation. The previous four characters (:ultjoker:, :ulthero:, :ultbanjokazooie:, and :ult_terry:) were all from series and games that had no previous representation in Smash Bros., so the theory would have been somewhat effectively at zeroing in on their inclusions when applied retroactively. Similarly, the entire theory had a relative strong causal explanation behind it: Sakurai is well aware that Ultimate is likely going to be the peak of the series both in size and fan service, so he's trying to see just how much further he can extend these elements through DLC. Even the first new phenomenon after the "new worlds" theory, the inclusion of :ultbyleth:, seemed to suggest some predictive power. While Byleth was a series with content previously in Smash, he was from an entry in that series that had no representation in Smash. Plus, I do remember people who supported the theory saying that it would make sense for a Three Houses character to join Smash, so it wasn't logically inconsistent then.

However, I really see no way to square the circle around :ultminmin. First off, there's no way to have the new worlds theory predict an ARMS character, seeing how the series already had five spirits and two Mii costumes in the base game, thereby excluding it from a future DLC pack by the logic of the new worlds theory. Similarly, Min Min doesn't fit with the theory's main causal explanation behind character choices. How does the inclusion of a character that was already in Ultimate as a spirit accomplish Sakurai's goal of expanding the crossover? It's still new content, but it retreads a game and series that was already represented in the base game.

Admittedly, this post kind spiralled out of control and mutated into a massive essay, but my key point is this. New worlds theory made sense in the past and no one can really fault folks for believing it back then. However, in the face of contradictory evidence, it's time to let it rest. If we want to keep to a consistent standard of logic and science, we aren't benefitting speculation by constantly moving goalposts to try and keep the new worlds theory relevant.
 
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It was literally said by Reggie at The Game Awards though.
No he said something else. I think it was something like the DLC characters would be new to the series or something, which doesn't mean anything since it could mean anything from their series is new to literally just, they are a newcomer.
The quote in question.
Reggie said:
These are going to be character that are new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5. Characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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However, I really see no way to square the circle around :ultminmin. First off, there's no way to have the new worlds theory predict an ARMS character, seeing how the series already had five spirits and two Mii costumes in the base game, thereby excluding it from a future DLC pack by the logic of the new worlds theory. Similarly, Min Min doesn't fit with the theory's main causal explanation behind character choices. How does the inclusion of a character that was already in Ultimate as a spirit accomplish Sakurai's goal of expanding the crossover? It's still new content, but it retreads a game and series that was already represented in the base game.
ARMS definitely wasn’t crossing over in the same way as any other series in Smash. It didn’t have a playable character, it didn’t have music, and it didn’t have a stage- all key parts in a Challenger Pack.

Was Ultimate as barren of ARMS content as the other five? No. However, that isn’t really what the argument was. ARMS didn’t have those key pieces, just like Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie, Fatal Fury, or Three Houses. A thematic pack that brings in that new content, one that it organized and based around a given character, relevant locale, and previously missing music. Each one did this, no matter how it’s sliced.

The scientific method works perfectly fine the way I see it. The hypotheses is altered based on information gained from the “experiment” (character reveal) , and is attempted again. Is it right all the time? No, but it was mostly right for Volume 1, and I don’t think Challenger Pack 6 is as far off as you claim it to be.
 

7NATOR

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Hey, so Over on Gamefaqs, Apparently some guy is saying there's a rumor in the inside that Nintendo Paid for an Apex Legends character and some music License last year


Now I know anyone can say anything, but since this is out there, I'm wondering if people have been hearing of this rumor as well. I would never Expect EA to be Represented in Smash despite how big they are, but you know, anything's Possible
 

Koopaul

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I don't see how ARMS changes anything. Sure ARMS had Spirits, an AT and Mii Costumes. But it didn't have a Fighter, a Stage, or Music. The point is, an ARMS character was going to add a lot to Smash that wasn't there. There was even plenty of additional Spirits they could add too.

EDIT: What Scoliosis said.
 
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Cosmic77

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To better understand why I don't like it when fans just generally agree that a character can't get in because of a pattern, read some of these old posts from various users.

So if Nintendo character that were revealed in 2017 are off the table then that means characters that released after Xenoblade 2 should be off the table as well. That means no Pokemon Sw/Sh and no Fire Emblem Three Houses.

It's super unlikely that the Fifth Fighter is going to be a Nintendo character at this point.
This is additional content. DLC. A whole different ball park. You yourself have stated the DLC is different from the base game picks. We're in a different scenario now. So we have to look at what has happened so far that matches closely with this scenario and so far, every DLC character has been 3rd party. I get the direction might change, but it's been working so well so far, that I don't think they'd change it so suddenly
Like it was said above, I feel like Spirits will be a big clue. I don't necessarily think that any character who already has a Spirit is off the table. But a game or series that has a good number of Spirits already probably won't. Each new fighter comes with their own special Spirit Board with many new Spirits. Theoretically someone like Geno could still fill up his board with a bunch of SMRPG characters. But someone like Spring Man sadly wouldn't since a ton of ARMS fighters are already Spirits. There wouldn't be much new to pull from.
I mean, if anything Byleth hurt first parties by pointing out that Nintendo could have super easily made playable fighters with ARMS, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, and Astral Chain characters, they just very actively chose not to.

Furthermore, I still think the nature of this future DLC being in Challenger Packs also similarly hurts a lot of first parties when you also consider that the more recent stuff fit far, far more naturally into that format than existing third parties who already have tons of Spirits and Music in the game aren't happening.

Take it from someone who likes most first-parties and loves ARMS. It was extremely difficult to hold a conversation on either of these topics until after their respective announcements from Nintendo. By themselves, patterns aren't bad. They only become a problem when people cling on to them and essentially shun anything that doesn't fit in these patterns.

It's a shame ARMS couldn't carry a conversation until after the fact. People are being far more open than they were in 2019 when discussion was pretty much stuck to only third-parties. Still, there's always room for improvement.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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ARMS definitely wasn’t crossing over in the same way as any other series in Smash. It didn’t have a playable character, it didn’t have music, and it didn’t have a stage- all key parts in a Challenger Pack.

Was Ultimate as barren of ARMS content as the other five? No. However, that isn’t really what the argument was. ARMS didn’t have those key pieces, just like Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie, Fatal Fury, or Three Houses. A thematic pack that brings in that new content, one that it organized and based around a given character, relevant locale, and previously missing music. Each one did this, no matter how it’s sliced.

The scientific method works perfectly fine the way I see it. The hypotheses is altered based on information gained from the “experiment” (character reveal) , and is attempted again. Is it right all the time? No, but it was mostly right for Volume 1, and I don’t think Challenger Pack 6 is as far off as you claim it to be.
I don't see how ARMS changes anything. Sure ARMS had Spirits, an AT and Mii Costumes. But it didn't have a Fighter, a Stage, or Music. The point is, an ARMS character was going to add a lot to Smash that wasn't there. There was even plenty of additional Spirits they could add too.

EDIT: What Scoliosis said.
That's not what the original theory was though. It wasn't that the characters they add would come from series that didn't already have a fighter, it was that the characters would come from series that didn't have anything at all.

And besides, if you're arguing that every character has to bring a bunch of content with them that's themed around them, then it applies to literally everyone so what's the point?

Hey, so Over on Gamefaqs, Apparently some guy is saying there's a rumor in the inside that Nintendo Paid for an Apex Legends character and some music License last year
Doubt it's true. EA has some big franchises like Mass Effect. Why on Earth would they go with Apex Legends instead of something like that? If they wanted the big battle royale game, Fortnite is right there.
 
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Schnee117

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Doubt it's true. EA has a franchises like Mass Effect. Why on Earth would they go with Apex Legends instead of something like that? If they wanted the big battle royale game, Fortnite is right there.
Apex is their hot new IP with a ton of active support.
Mass Effect has been dead since Andromeda came out like a wet fart, the only thing going for it is a trilogy remaster that is still currently only rumoured.
 

cashregister9

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Hey, so Over on Gamefaqs, Apparently some guy is saying there's a rumor in the inside that Nintendo Paid for an Apex Legends character and some music License last year


Now I know anyone can say anything, but since this is out there, I'm wondering if people have been hearing of this rumor as well. I would never Expect EA to be Represented in Smash despite how big they are, but you know, anything's Possible
This """rumor""" has nothing to it and if I had to measure a guess this exists to provoke fear mongering and "EA BAD" posts.\

EDIT: Commander Shepard is the only EA Rep I could feasibly see making it in within this millenia
 
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Kinda wondering about that, though; he may have taken sakurai's words a bit off because Byleth wasn't all that surprising and neither was Min Min. If anything, it was more surprising that ARMS wasn't already represented. It definitely applies to Joker (more than anything, really), Hero (with 4 different DQ protagonists was even better), and Terry (nobody saw Fatal Fury coming).

Banjo was a hopeful for a lot of people, but to say that nobody saw it coming is kinda hard to really accept. He's been requested a long time and his games were Nintendo games; he hasn't even had a continuing series outside Nintendo like Mega Man or Castlevania eventually had. Banjo's home and only life was Nintendo. Even though he's third party, he kinda felt like the most likely 3rd party to eventually occur. And the game overloaded with 3rd party representation was the best time.

Byleth was just repping a new Fire Emblem series (a really good Fire Emblem series and the first on the Switch). So again, not really something anyone would really put into the 'characters that you would not anticipate like Joker' (to paraphrase) category.

Then our most recent newcomer is Min Min. A character from a game most expected to be in the base roster. I mean, to be fair, I suppose it can be argued that nobody would have expected it would have been Min Min instead of Spring Man, but then again nobody would have expected the workaround of 'they're all protagonists!'.

So, Reggie may not have completely 100% understood Sakurai's intention.

Or he only was aware of up to Terry at the time.

Or, it's really going to just stick to 'new Games & franchises' and not necessarily ones we'll never see coming.

That unfortunately dashes my hopes of going back to 1st party games like Zelda and getting another Zelda rep like Impa, non-chibi Midna, or someone of the like. That would knock out Porky as well since Earthbound is already represented, but any game not already in Smash (TWEWY, No More Heroes, Paper Mario, Super Mario RPG, etc) still has a shot. Fire Emblem is in, but Fire Emblem 3 Houses wasn't (so you had the franchise, but not that particular game, so they had the workaround there).

Anyway...kind of wrote a lot to say this, but the TL;DR of what I'm trying to say is, I don't think Reggie is fully accurate in thinking every character is going to be something we would never anticipate. He's right on the new Game & Franchise part though; that's been 100% for Every DLC so far and with creative/innovative as they've been, I don't think they'd suddenly stop and go (Here, FP8 is Baby Rosalina; she's like Rosalina but Tiny and has a pacifier).
 

Mushroomguy12

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More SNES is cool and all, but how about GCN on NSO too so I don't have to keep using Dolphin to back up my GCN library? That'd be nice.

View attachment 283444
N64, GBA, GCN, all of them (even DS and Wii, if the Wii VC could have the N64 that was two gens old at the time, then the Switch can have the two gen old Wii). It's funny how they keep appealing to NES and SNES nostalgia yet more and more of their audience by the year is consisting of people who didn't even grow up with those systems, they grew up with 5th, 6th, and 7th gen Nintendo platforms and yet they refuse to capitalize on it.
 
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