Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Will]

Man, if only someone had written a detailed, 4,300+ word argument about just that.

View attachment 278208

The fact you parade the word count makes me scared of your dedication to it like it's your grad school thesis.

 

[ZephyrZ]

As some have mentioned already, Kingdom Hearts still owned by Disney, not Square Enix. You could remove the Disney content, but you still have to go to them to ask. Why go to the Western behemoth and not go for their most iconic characters? On the flip side, how big would the price tag be? Would Nintendo be forced to use the OCs simply because they couldn't afford Mickey and co.?

Mostly because Mickey isn't really a game character.

Sora is.

 

[Digital Hazard]

For what it's worth, Sakurai very much considers Kingdom Hearts a video game series.

To be fair, right now as DLC is concerned, is Nintendo's take on to it rather than Sakurai's.

Admittedly, it's impossible to know how much input he has in current roster decisions; from Min Min's presentation, we could infer that it seems Nintendo told him to go with an ARMS character rather than someone specific.

 

[SKX31]

I also doubt Sora appearing without Disney would cost any significant controversy. Fans would just be glad to see him in, especially given his longshot nature.

It really comes down to how negotiations with Disney go, which is such a wild card in speculation on Sora I honestly don't know how it'd go.

Still though, Disney's lawyers will probably be aware of Mickey's and Donald's presence in Brawl's Chronicles menu. Sure, those G&W games were licensed wholly by Nintendo, but it could have some ramifications re: Disney's stance on NPC characters included in a potential Sora pack.

What that means is not entirely clear (because I'm not going to pretend to know if Disney prefers that Mickey, Donald and Goofy follow along with Sora or not), but I'm personally rather sure it'll be a factor because "Hey, you guys have used the names of our characters in a previous Smash game.".

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Did anyone post this yet?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If anyone wants a refresher on who could be plausible candidates for Fighters Pass 2, here you go. There are some questionable picks but regardless it's got pretty much every relevant to discussion character.

Since Sora is the current discussion. What does everyone think of his actual chances?

Things going for him and barriers against his inclusion?

I bet he's coming. This seems like it could be his time. I don't believe Disney is entirely a heartless monster.

 

[Nekoo]

If I recall, they used to, but not anymore for some reason

ah, I see, Well I stand corrected. I was always told they belonged to Nomura and SE

They never belonged to Nomura or SE.

HOWEVER
If Disney want to use any character or do anything KH related, they have a gentleman clause with Nomura and SE to asks them for a greenlight.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Did anyone post this yet?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If anyone wants a refresher on who could be plausible candidates for Fighters Pass 2, here you go. There are some questionable picks but regardless it's got pretty much every relevant to discussion character.

>Gex
>Ty

Lol sure.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Did anyone post this yet?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If anyone wants a refresher on who could be plausible candidates for Fighters Pass 2, here you go. There are some questionable picks but regardless it's got pretty much every relevant to discussion character.



I bet he's coming. This seems like it could be his time. I don't believe Disney is entirely a heartless monster.

Do we really need some random Tweet to remind us that Smash fans only focus on these characters? Well, not Ty at least. But I'm sure someone would assign arbitrary hype points to him anyway.

 

[M@R!3]

I can't tell if he'd be impossible or extremely likely, because Sakurai just said "Smash characters must explicitly be from video games" and didn't go into detail about it, leaving us to scramble over each other to try and make sense of the grey areas. We don't know exactly how strict the internal rules are involving fourth-parties, so maybe guys like Geralt and Sora are off the table, or maybe they're completely fine thanks to loopholes.

As some have mentioned already, Kingdom Hearts still owned by Disney, not Square Enix. You could remove the Disney content, but you still have to go to them to ask. Why go to the Western behemoth and not go for their most iconic characters? On the flip side, how big would the price tag be? Would Nintendo be forced to use the OCs simply because they couldn't afford Mickey and co.?

There's also the fact that Sakurai has stated that Smash tends to honor the beginning of a series, so we have NES Simon over the Chronicles or LoS designs, and classic Pac-Man over the Ghostly Adventures one. Kingdom Hearts started out with Disney, and even if it's begun to wane, there's still a good deal of moments involving the Disney characters even in KH3 (YEETUS VANITAS, anyone?). Even if it's not absolutely integral, it's still a big part of Kingdom Hearts, and removing it would be met with controversy.

There's also the question of if we even need to remove the Disney in the first place. We already have public domain characters in Dracula, so what stops us from taking that extra step forward? It hasn't reached that level yet, but if Min Min proves anything, Smash newcomers exist solely to one-up each other. Sakurai could easily emphasize that "This only happened because the Disney cast are their own incarnation of the characters, and they aren't the fighter. Please understand that this does not mean Goku."

In short, I've got no ****ing clue.

We do have precedence of Sora appearing in other games without Disney content beyond OC stuff. World of Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy Record Keeper, and Final Fantasy Brave Exvius. Though all of these examples were, admittedly, limited time events.

*BIG DETAIL that I missed. So FFRC actually includes Wonderland and Olympus Colliseum as battle environments, music included. There don't appear to be Disney characters from those worlds.

 

[Calamitas]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Ah, yes. The chance that Nintendo puts another Nintendo character in the Nintendo crossover platform party fighting game is obviously zero percent, and it's gotta be one of these characters.

. . .Okay, the tweet gets some points for including Amaterasu though. I'll give it that.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Did anyone post this yet?


If anyone wants a refresher on who could be plausible candidates for Fighters Pass 2, here you go. There are some questionable picks but regardless it's got pretty much every relevant to discussion character.

Reminder how much a character is discussed isn't entirely indicative of their likelyhood, just their collectively percieved likelihood.

The gaming industry is big and there's a ton of sleeper picks who make sense in hindsight like Terry and Joker or heck, even Piranha Plant. I've never really liked it when people narrowed down possible newcomers with lists and graphs for this reason.

 

[RileyXY1]

To be fair, right now as DLC is concerned, is Nintendo's take on to it rather than Sakurai's.

Admittedly, it's impossible to know how much input he has in current roster decisions; from Min Min's presentation, we could infer that it seems Nintendo told him to go with an ARMS character rather than someone specific.

We do know that the producer of ARMS specifically requested Min Min.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

>Gex
>Ty

Lol sure.

Gex would be amazing though.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Since Sora is the current discussion. What does everyone think of his actual chances?

Things going for him and barriers against his inclusion?

for me its 50/ 50

 

[Opossum]

Did anyone post this yet?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If anyone wants a refresher on who could be plausible candidates for Fighters Pass 2, here you go. There are some questionable picks but regardless it's got pretty much every relevant to discussion character.



I bet he's coming. This seems like it could be his time. I don't believe Disney is entirely a heartless monster.

I just find it funny how there's all those legit heavy hitters...and then Ty, Klonoa, and Gex lmao.

Pretty neat list though.

 

[Digital Hazard]

We do know that the producer of ARMS specifically requested Min Min.

Yes, but before that, we know Sakurai was thinking between her and Ninjara until Yabuki said so.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Hot take: The concept that Fighter Pass 2 will not include characters people discuss because characters that weren't commonly discussed got in through Fighter Pass 1 is weak and not the point.

Sure, few people talked about Terry and Joker. But is that Nintendo choosing characters that nobody talks about on purpose, or the fanbase showing that it has blindspots in the collection of characters they talk about? Considering the circumstances, I would say it's the latter.

Just seems to me like, "Dante and Crash aren't getting in because people are talking about them" is used against them, but the fact that "upgrades" are talked about consistently doesn't get the same treatment, for example.

Change my mind.

EDIT: I mean really. How many times has, "Entirely 1st party pass" or "Pokemon will get a character" been said, and there's nearly never a "we're talking a lot about this, so it's not in Fighter Pass 2"?

I'll tell you why...it's because it's a non-point and we all know it, but it's only used against characters some folks don't want.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai still is adamant Nintendo is choosing the characters even then. From the story we've been given, it's more clearly that Yubuki asked Nintendo, which is where the "request" was from, and Nintendo gave Sakurai the suggestion. The rest was history.

Sometimes it's as simple as it says. Sakurai's personal options weren't relevant in that case. It was just a coincidence Yubiki asked for a character he'd have liked in, that's all.

 

[Super Devon]

Since Sora is the current discussion. What does everyone think of his actual chances?

Things going for him and barriers against his inclusion?

honestly, I want Sora myself, but stuff like the current speculation for him and the "who owns Sora" discussion is holding me back from being excited on the potential of him being added.
Since the character is just licensing-hell for Nintendo and I doubt they'd even want to tackle for Sora.
Plus, Disney has the power to buy out companies, not saying that'll happen to Nintendo if Sora gets added, I doubt that will happen at all.
in any case, as much as I want Sora, the discussion of his "chances" and Disney being involved in Smash just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

All this KH talk with counterarguments and points addressed in my essay got me like:

View attachment 278204


Speaking of, how do you feel about the current internal climate of Disney towards video games in regards to Sora's chances? I feel a lot's changed in his favor since last we seriously spoke of such, and I'd like to get your opinion on things.

A LOT better. Sora went from way unlikely to pseudo-likely after the success of the Marvel games and Kingdom Hearts III and the surprising success of them on Xbox.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Sakurai still is adamant Nintendo is choosing the characters even then. From the story we've been given, it's more clearly that Yubuki asked Nintendo, which is where the "request" was from, and Nintendo gave Sakurai the suggestion. The rest was history.

Sometimes it's as simple as it says. Sakurai's personal options weren't relevant in that case. It was just a coincidence Yubiki asked for a character he'd have liked in, that's all.

If anything, I understood it more as Nintendo told Sakurai to include an ARMS character, and Sakurai went to Yabuki for input. Since Min Min is Yabuki's favorite, she got in.

There's a lot of unknowns in regards to how much influence Sakurai and Nintendo have respectively in determining characters. For instance, we know Sakurai included Joker because he's a huge fan of the Persona series, and that he played a significant role in negotiations for Dragon Quest. However, we also know that Byleth and Min Min were special requests from Nintendo that Sakurai honored, or was forced to honor.

It seems very much like a give and take relationship where both parties have input, and to give significant credit to one over the other seems rather reductionist to me.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I think Lara Croft is slept on as a character choice and would be cool in Smash.

 

[Hinata]

Sakurai still is adamant Nintendo is choosing the characters even then. From the story we've been given, it's more clearly that Yubuki asked Nintendo, which is where the "request" was from, and Nintendo gave Sakurai the suggestion. The rest was history.

Sometimes it's as simple as it says. Sakurai's personal options weren't relevant in that case. It was just a coincidence Yubiki asked for a character he'd have liked in, that's all.

If anything, I understood it more as Nintendo told Sakurai to include an ARMS character, and Sakurai went to Yubiki for input. Since Min Min is Yubiki's favorite, she got in.

There's a lot of unknowns in regards to how much influence Sakurai and Nintendo have respectively in determining characters. For instance, we know Sakurai included Joker because he's a huge fan of the Persona series, and that he played a significant role in negotiations for Dragon Quest. However, we also know that Byleth and Min Min were special requests from Nintendo that Sakurai honored, or was forced to honor.

It seems very much like a give and take relationship where both parties have input, and to give significant credit to one over the other seems rather reductionist to me.

I feel the need to let you both know that the director of ARMS is Mr. Yabuki, not Yubiki or Yubuki.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I mean let's be honest here...

On one hand, folks claim that characters won't be added because people talk about them. This is commonly used against picks like Dante, 2B, and others.

At the same time, there is much talk of upgraded 1st party picks, and there has been for months. Logically, this would be a "Commonly talked about" idea similar to the inclusion of several characters. Yet, this same logic of "commonly talked about but never added" is never applied.

In a similar case, using Dante as an example, folks have actually been talking about Phoenix Wright for years in a Smash context. But again, this same logic of "commonly talked about so won't be in" isn't applied. Could it be because he has a "connection to Nintendo"?

We're talking about Sora, but where's the argument that he can't happen because we're talking about him?

I'm not trying to strike up an argument about 1st and 3rd parties. But it seems pretty clear that the "commonly talked about and won't be in" argument is skewed heavily toward a particular type of character, and not commonly used against another. In other words, it seems like a convenient argument to say one's most wanted is more likely when it's not actually based in anything measurable or conclusive.

Nintendo didn't add Joker or Terry or others because we weren't talking about them. We weren't talking about them because the scope of what fans thought was possible was limited moreso than what it looks like now. That's it. It doesn't mean that characters are screwed because people want them in the game. That's just silly and reduces our options to... Pepsiman, because I'm literally the only Pepsiman for Smash stan in the entire fanbase.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If anything, I understood it more as Nintendo told Sakurai to include an ARMS character, and Sakurai went to Yubiki for input. Since Min Min is Yubiki's favorite, she got in.

There's a lot of unknowns in regards to how much influence Sakurai and Nintendo have respectively. For instance, we know Sakurai included Joker because he's a huge fan of the Persona series, and that he played a significant role in negotiations for Dragon Quest. However, we also know that Byleth and Min Min were special requests from Nintendo that Sakurai honored, or was forced to honor.

It seems very much like a give and take relationship where both parties have input, and to give significant credit to one or the other seems rather reductionist to me.

That doesn't really tell me anything remotely different. Of course Sakurai is going to note his love for the series. He does this a lot. He's also integral to negotiations because he's the director.

So I get the same impression as before, Nintendo has the characters hard set to suggest(which how they figure out who to suggest is variable), Sakurai talks to them about the suggestion, then negotiations if it's 3rd party happens.

This doesn't remotely make me think otherwise. It'd actually contradict Nintendo entirely choosing the characters otherwise, which doesn't make any sense. None of these PR statements mean much because in the end, he has to choose a character Nintendo suggested, which still fits entirely with his statements in an accurate form.

 

[SKX31]

Reminder how much a character is discussed isn't entirely indicative of their likelyhood, just their collectively percieved likelihood.

The gaming industry is big and there's a ton of sleeper picks who make sense in hindsight like Terry and Joker or heck, even Piranha Plant. I've never really liked it when people narrowed down possible newcomers with lists and graphs for this reason.

To add to that: there are always other aspects that go completely under the radar. 37 Games (SNK's main owner) became the first mobile / browser game company with a character in Smash when Terry got in*. Practically no one here knows much about 37's, well, games, but that didn't matter. From what I could gather 37 has a much stronger presence in China (hovering around 5th-12th in the Chinese mobile charts) but a far cry from the titans Tencent and Netease.

*(While SNK operates more independently than Rare or even ATLUS, this still applies since we do count B-K as a Microsoft character and Joker as a SEGA character.)

Since Sora is the current discussion. What does everyone think of his actual chances?

Things going for him and barriers against his inclusion?

As for Sora...

A+ inclusion if it happens. Would kinda prefer the Disney characters' presence personally, but it's not a huge deal for me and I can certainly see his Pack going without them. Would love the opportunity to shift between forms and combo people for days on end. Whether he has the standard attacks / magic or stranger ones like Magnet and the ever loveable Balloonga.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If anything, I understood it more as Nintendo told Sakurai to include an ARMS character, and Sakurai went to Yabuki for input. Since Min Min is Yabuki's favorite, she got in.

There's a lot of unknowns in regards to how much influence Sakurai and Nintendo have respectively in determining characters. For instance, we know Sakurai included Joker because he's a huge fan of the Persona series, and that he played a significant role in negotiations for Dragon Quest. However, we also know that Byleth and Min Min were special requests from Nintendo that Sakurai honored, or was forced to honor.

It seems very much like a give and take relationship where both parties have input, and to give significant credit to one over the other seems rather reductionist to me.

So this leads to a question.

How much say does either party have? And which characters were pushed by one over they other?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Did anyone post this yet?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If anyone wants a refresher on who could be plausible candidates for Fighters Pass 2, here you go. There are some questionable picks but regardless it's got pretty much every relevant to discussion character.



I bet he's coming. This seems like it could be his time. I don't believe Disney is entirely a heartless monster.

What the **** is that Sol render he looks white in that lmao

 

[epicmartin7]

So... I might have solved the mystery regarding Smash Ultimate's DLC placeholder amounts regarding characters. Note: What I am about to say does not indicate how many DLC characters we'll get and this explanation is just speculation. Nothing has been outright confirmed.

Okay, so let's do a quick refresher on what these placeholders are, where they're located in the game, and how many exist.

[spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc]: As you can tell by the filename, this is meant for World of Light. If you've heard of the "WoL Placeholders", this is the file that those placeholders come from. In 1.0.0, this file contained 16 Placeholders. Now, as you would expect, up to 3.0.0, DLC characters would be gradually filling in those placeholders. However... after 4.0.0, this file got really inconsistent with it's revision history. Placeholders would be added and randomly removed in each subsequent update. If you want a graphic showing it's revision history through each update... I have one down below. It's simply fascinating lmao.

Spoiler: Screenshot of [spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc] Placeholders (1.0.0)

Note: dummy_01 is missing because plant is taking up a spot in 1.0.0.

Spoiler: [spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc] Revision History

[attack_log_parameter.prc]: Now... this file is rarely talked about. However, this is another parameter file that also contains the 16 placeholders. And unlike [spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc], this file has a consistent revision history! This means every single character released thus far has used up more and more placeholders. Neat.

Spoiler: [attack_log_parameter.prc] Placeholders (1.0.0)

Main Executable: Turns out, there's more placeholders in the executable of the game! However, compared to the 16 placeholders within the parameter files, there is a whopping 29 placeholders that exist. (And no, it's 29. Many have rounded it to 30 over the years, and that's actually incorrect. It's directly 29 lol.)
These placeholders also have a consistent revision history, meaning none have been added or removed. Just taken up by released DLC fighters.

Spoiler: Main Executable Placeholders (6.0.0)

So... taken all together, there's two numbers that are front and center regarding SSBU's DLC placeholder amounts. 16 and 29. At first glance, these numbers seem completely contradicting to one another. However, after thinking about it, I believe there is an explanation on why they went with the numbers they did.

I made the realization ago that the 16 placeholder amounts inexplicably lined-up with the Max CSS of the game. For those who don't know, after more than 91 CSS icons are enabled, Smash Ultimate crashes because it's not programmed to handle more than that amount.

Spoiler: Max CSS (91): In-Game

Turns out, if you count all the blank spots and DLC characters on screen, you get 16 spots. Same as the placeholder!

Spoiler: Max CSS (91) : In-Game [With 16 Placeholders Highlighted]

So... judging by this, you could make the conclusion that the 16 placeholders were explicitly put there as a response to what the dev team knew the CSS could handle at the time (or at least what they wanted it to handle.) Which, is a very neat discovery.

However, this still doesn't explain the 29 placeholders, and why 29 of all numbers was chosen. Well... this is where 8.0.0's stage select screen comes in to give me a stunning realization.

In 8.0.0, the stage select screen was updated in order to handle more stages coming down the line as part of Fighter Pass Vol. 2. Not only was there a new row added, but a new folder called [stage_select2] was added.

Spoiler: Photo of New Stage Select and Folder

So... I looked at that and thought... "what if another row was added to the CSS to?" So I made an image mock-up (not to scale of course), and... low and behold, I came to a stunning realization.

Spoiler: Max CSS (104): Mock-up

* Not to scale.

Spoiler: Max CSS (104) : Mock-up [With 29 Placeholders Highlighted]

*Not to scale.

Adding another row nets you the 29 placeholders in Smash Ultimate's executable!

So... basically... what can we take away from all of this?

- It seems like the placeholder amounts introduced into the game have a relationship with the Character Selection Screen.
- If I were to guess what type of relationship, I think that these placeholder amounts were most likely chosen to fit the dev team's idea of what the CSS could handle.
- I also think that if we do get more after Vol. 2, this shows they will probably treat the CSS just like the stage select, and probably add another folder instead of replace existing files.

Again, this is not indicative of the content we will get. However, it does show how the dev team really future proofed the game very efficiently. It also gives a possible explanation on why they chose the numbers that they did, which is neat.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

May I ask where did you find your avatar? I wants it. XD

I commissioned it from this guy https://twitter.com/teofttweets/status/1278337252121337857?s=21

If I recall, they used to, but not anymore for some reason

That’s also false. He’s credited with the designs but Disney has always owned the designs for all of the original characters in KH. It was a part of the original agreement when Kingdom Hearts started out as Disney x Final Fantasy. That all original content, with the exception alterations of content already owned by Squaresoft, would be the intellectual property of Disney or as it was known as Buena Vista International.

 

[Deleted member]

do you guys think they will add a character from the Xenoblade Chronicles series of games

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So... I might have solved the mystery regarding Smash Ultimate's DLC placeholder amounts regarding characters. Note: What I am about to say does not indicate how many DLC characters we'll get and this explanation is just speculation. Nothing has been outright confirmed.

Okay, so let's do a quick refresher on what these placeholders are, where they're located in the game, and how many exist.

[spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc]: As you can tell by the filename, this is meant for World of Light. If you've heard of the "WoL Placeholders", this is the file that those placeholders come from. In 1.0.0, this file contained 16 Placeholders. Now, as you would expect, up to 3.0.0, DLC characters would be gradually filling in those placeholders. However... after 4.0.0, this file got really inconsistent with it's revision history. Placeholders would be added and randomly removed in each subsequent update. If you want a graphic showing it's revision history through each update... I have one down below. It's simply fascinating lmao.

Spoiler: Screenshot of [spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc] Placeholders (1.0.0)

View attachment 278209
Note: dummy_01 is missing because plant is taking up a spot in 1.0.0.

Spoiler: [spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc] Revision History

View attachment 278205

[attack_log_parameter.prc]: Now... this file is rarely talked about. However, this is another parameter file that also contains the 16 placeholders. And unlike [spirits_campaign_enc_foto_param.prc], this file has a consistent revision history! This means every single character released thus far has used up more and more placeholders. Neat.

Spoiler: [attack_log_parameter.prc] Placeholders (1.0.0)

View attachment 278211

Main Executable: Turns out, there's more placeholders in the executable of the game! However, compared to the 16 placeholders within the parameter files, there is a whopping 29 placeholders that exist. (And no, it's 29. Many have rounded it to 30 over the years, and that's actually incorrect. It's directly 29 lol.)
These placeholders also have a consistent revision history, meaning none have been added or removed. Just taken up by released DLC fighters.

Spoiler: Main Executable Placeholders (6.0.0)

View attachment 278212

So... taken all together, there's two numbers that are front and center regarding SSBU's DLC placeholder amounts. 16 and 29. At first glance, these numbers seem completely contradicting to one another. However, after thinking about it, I believe there is an explanation on why they went with the numbers they did.

I made the realization ago that the 16 placeholder amounts inexplicably lined-up with the Max CSS of the game. For those who don't know, after more than 91 CSS icons are enabled, Smash Ultimate crashes because it's not programmed to handle more than that amount.

Spoiler: Max CSS (91): In-Game

View attachment 278214

Turns out, if you count all the blank spots and DLC characters on screen, you get 16 spots. Same as the placeholder!

Spoiler: Max CSS (91) : In-Game [With 16 Placeholders Highlighted]

View attachment 278215

So... judging by this, you could make the conclusion that the 16 placeholders were explicitly put there as a response to what the dev team knew the CSS could handle at the time (or at least what they wanted it to handle.) Which, is a very neat discovery.

However, this still doesn't explain the 29 placeholders, and why 29 of all numbers was chosen. Well... this is where 8.0.0's stage select screen comes in to give me a stunning realization.

In 8.0.0, the stage select screen was updated in order to handle more stages coming down the line as part of Fighter Pass Vol. 2. Not only was there a new row added, but a new folder called [stage_select2] was added.

Spoiler: Photo of New Stage Select and Folder

View attachment 278216
View attachment 278217

So... I looked at that and thought... "what if another row was added to the CSS to?" So I made an image mock-up (not to scale of course), and... low and behold, I came to a stunning realization.

Spoiler: Max CSS (104): Mock-up

View attachment 278218
* Not to scale.

Spoiler: Max CSS (104) : Mock-up [With 29 Placeholders Highlighted]

View attachment 278219
*Not to scale.

Adding another row nets you the 29 placeholders in Smash Ultimate's executable!

So... basically... what can we take away from all of this?

- It seems like the placeholder amounts introduced into the game have a relationship with the Character Selection Screen.
- If I were to guess what type of relationship, I think that these placeholder amounts were most likely chosen to fit the dev team's idea of what the CSS could handle.
- I also think that if we do get more after Vol. 2, this shows they will probably treat the CSS just like the stage select, and probably add another folder instead of replace existing files.

Again, this is not indicative of the content we will get. However, it does show how the dev team really future proofed the game very efficiently. It also gives a possible explanation on why they chose the numbers that they did, which is neat.

How would they get past the 91 limit coding wise? Would it involve allocating more memory or something?

 

[GoodGrief741]

Did anyone post this yet?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If anyone wants a refresher on who could be plausible candidates for Fighters Pass 2, here you go. There are some questionable picks but regardless it's got pretty much every relevant to discussion character.



I bet he's coming. This seems like it could be his time. I don't believe Disney is entirely a heartless monster.

There are only 25 possible candidates for Smash, and one of them is Gex.

I mean let's be honest here...

On one hand, folks claim that characters won't be added because people talk about them. This is commonly used against picks like Dante, 2B, and others.

At the same time, there is much talk of upgraded 1st party picks, and there has been for months. Logically, this would be a "Commonly talked about" idea similar to the inclusion of several characters. Yet, this same logic of "commonly talked about but never added" is never applied.

In a similar case, using Dante as an example, folks have actually been talking about Phoenix Wright for years in a Smash context. But again, this same logic of "commonly talked about so won't be in" isn't applied. Could it be because he has a "connection to Nintendo"?

I'm not trying to strike up an argument about 1st and 3rd parties. But it seems pretty clear that the "commonly talked about and won't be in" argument is skewed heavily toward a particular type of character, and not commonly used against another. In other words, it seems like a convenient argument to say one's most wanted is more likely when it's not actually based in anything measurable or conclusive.

Nintendo didn't add Joker or Terry or others because we weren't talking about them. We weren't talking about them because the scope of what fans thought was possible was limited moreso than what it looks like now. That's it. It doesn't mean that characters are screwed because people want them in the game. That's just silly and reduces our options to... Pepsiman, because I'm literally the only Pepsiman for Smash stan in the entire fanbase.

I gotta say, I haven't seen a lot of "X character won't get in because they're discussed a lot".

There's a difference between "we won't get characters that get a lot of discussion" and "we won't get characters that get a lot of discussion because they get a lot of discussion". The former acknowledges the Smash fanbase's tendency towards learning the wrong things from character reveals and having blind spots, whereas the latter implies that the dev team deliberately listens to discussion and tries to blindside fans with unexpected picks (which is imo ludicrous).

do you guys think they will add a character from the Xenoblade Chronicles series of games

Yes

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Hot take: The concept that Fighter Pass 2 will not include characters people discuss because characters that weren't commonly discussed got in through Fighter Pass 1 is weak and not the point.

Sure, few people talked about Terry and Joker. But is that Nintendo choosing characters that nobody talks about on purpose, or the fanbase showing that it has blindspots in the collection of characters they talk about? Considering the circumstances, I would say it's the latter.

Just seems to me like, "Dante and Crash aren't getting in because people are talking about them" is used against them, but the fact that "upgrades" are talked about consistently doesn't get the same treatment, for example.

Change my mind.

EDIT: I mean really. How many times has, "Entirely 1st party pass" or "Pokemon will get a character" been said, and there's nearly never a "we're talking a lot about this, so it's not in Fighter Pass 2"?

I'll tell you why...it's because it's a non-point and we all know it, but it's only used against characters some folks don't want.

I've spoken of a "Smash Bubble" for over a year now, and I'll stick by it to this day.

The core Smash fandom is only right on speculation to an extent. There's a good amount of characters that largely aren't discussed by the core fandom that, when looking at evidence, have rather strong cases for them.

For every Lloyd Irving there's an Adol Christin. For every Arle Nadja there's a Kazuma Kiryu. There's a lot of popular series out there too, like League of Legends and Harvest Moon that have legacy and impact, yet aren't talked about at all.

Maybe I'll write about it some time.

That doesn't really tell me anything remotely different. Of course Sakurai is going to note his love for the series. He does this a lot. He's also integral to negotiations because he's the director.

So I get the same impression as before, Nintendo has the characters hard set to suggest(which how they figure out who to suggest is variable), Sakurai talks to them about the suggestion, then negotiations if it's 3rd party happens.

This doesn't remotely make me think otherwise. It'd actually contradict Nintendo entirely choosing the characters otherwise, which doesn't make any sense. None of these PR statements mean much because in the end, he has to choose a character Nintendo suggested, which still fits entirely with his statements in an accurate form.

Did you read those articles? Your reply makes me think you didn't.

From Atlus' Manager:

Joker will participate in Super Smash Bros. mainly because of the invitation from Sora Ltd.'s Masahiro Sakurai. That is what led to this collaboration. Because Mr. Sakurai likes Persona 5 very much, and I personally like Super Smash Bros. a lot, my first thought when I received the invitation was 'Great!' I was very happy to establish a relationship for this collaboration."

From Sakurai and Horii's interview:

However, Nintendo approached Sakurai, saying it might be possible, and so he ended up doing the presentation proposal with the intent of working with Dragon Quest, although what from Dragon Quest would be worked out later on

Nintendo didn't tell Sakurai to include Joker, he initiated those talks himself. Nintendo didn't tell Sakurai to include Dragon Quest, they merely told him it might be possible if he decided to go for it.

Even within Nintendo's confines Sakurai has choice. It's why we got Byleth over another Three Houses character, and Min Min over another ARMS character.

Sakurai has a significant role in character decision and negotiation. Nintendo also has a significant role in character decision and negotiation. To act like one has more influence than the other is reductionist, and runs contrary to the information currently available.

 

[Gentlepanda]

do you guys think they will add a character from the Xenoblade Chronicles series of games

xenoblade hasn't had a game in over 9 years, try again

 

[Deleted member]

I've spoken of a "Smash Bubble" for over a year now, and I'll stick by it to this day.

Did you read those articles? Your reply makes me think you didn't.

From Atlus' Manager:


From Sakurai and Horii's interview:


Nintendo didn't tell Sakurai to include Joker, he initiated those talks himself. Nintendo didn't tell Sakurai to include Dragon Quest, they merely told him it might be possible if he decided to go for it.

Even within Nintendo's confines Sakurai has choice. It's why we got Byleth over another Three Houses character, and Min Min over another ARMS character.

Sakurai has a significant role in character decision and negotiation. Nintendo also has a significant role in character decision and negotiation. To act like one has more influence than the other is reductionist, and runs contrary to the information currently available.

daybreak spitting str8 fax. btw i never even noticed how fat your essays are till now but theyre awesome

 

[epicmartin7]

How would they get past the 91 limit coding wise? Would it involve allocating more memory or something?

As far as I'm aware, all that would need to happen is a revision to CSS UI structure itself. Believe it or not, the game actually has a lot of memory to work with when running. So nothing would have to be modified there.

 

[Gyrom8]

do you guys think they will add a character from the Xenoblade Chronicles series of games

I'd be very surprised if we weren't playing as Riki by next e3

 

[Deleted member]

xenoblade hasn't had a game in over 9 years, try again

i can't believe it's been 9 years since xenosaga episode 2: jenseits von gut und böse... time rly does fly

 

[OrpheusTelos]

do you guys think they will add a character from the Xenoblade Chronicles series of games

yes. we're gonna get whichever one gives us black tar so elma wins