Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[ganondorf_22]

Maybe the next character will be Sarge from Army Men: Sarge's Heroes.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

The main issue, for me at least, is whether or not Kingdom Hearts can be faithfully represented with just the original cast and without any Disney characters.

100% yes KH can stand on its own feet without disney stuff

 

[SKX31]

Here's my lukewarm takes:

• I would've preferred Lycanroc or Decidueye and Spring Man to Incineroar and Min Min. I also think Byleth was a better choice than one of the house leaders.
• Shadow really should have been a Sonic echo.
• Little Mac's mostly fine the way he is, he just needs a handful of buffs to give him the tools other characters have (a grab that isn't terrible, a means of beating projectiles consistently, etc.).
• Fire Emblem's current roster is pretty good. All of them provide a fun playstyle or are an easy bonus in the form of an echo.
• I still kind of hope we get a Retro rep from the NES in Ultimate. I know Simon Belmont kinda fills this out, but it's hard to consider him retro when he hails from a series that's still (kinda) going to this day. I basically want to see a new Ice Climbers or Duck Hunt.
• There's still a lot of fun and interesting options for first-party fighters.

• 50 / 50 on the first myself, but I'm personally not fussed about Incineroar / Min Min. Decidueye would've been really nice though.
• Yes. In that case, I'd prefer a Ken-esque echo where he has different properties from Sonic and as such different strings.
• Eeeeh... I'm personally the kind of guy that argues for a Little Mac rework, but his atrocious grab game is one reason. I agree with you in regards to the grab game: his lack of a grab game (and air game) really hurts him against shields and railroads Little Mac players into "Run Up, attack, and perhaps pray for Super Armor". As for tool to beat projectiles, yeah - that was one intent behind Jolt Haymaker (Side B)* but it doesn't have enough intangibility to consistently get through projectiles.
• Agreed, honestly. I'm also fine with the clones / Echoes since there are reasons to pick them over Marth / Roy.
• Could kinda see that - that said, Hayabusa seems to be the safest bet by far.
• Fully agreed - I might be a third party guy myself, but I don't mind first party choices.

* Rekzius - competitive Smasher. Little Mac main and someone who considers Mac a noble attempt (which I agree with him on - I appriciate the effort even if the results didn't turn out well) - details Side-B's original intent here. His opinion is influenced by the fact that platform camping is much more commonly used against Little Mac in tournaments - where prize money's on the line.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Gee... it's almost like people want Sora because they like the character himself

 

[Aetheri]

Gee... it's almost like people want Sora because they like the character himself

Haven't you heard?

You can only want the character that I want! And I'll do anything to argue against any character you want that isn't the same one that I want!

 

[osby]

Gee... it's almost like people want Sora because they like the character himself

I can't believe you don't want Sora in Smash just to have "Let It Go" play on The Summit.

Smh, fake Kingdom Hearts fan.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Sora's circumstances are so oddly specific that I want him in just because enough people want him.
All I want is for all Disney references to be excised, and for the Kingdom Key token to be replaced with the Smash logo.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

people seem to forget KH is basically Nomuras fanfic in game form and with fan fics comes Original content but people are too focused on the mainly useless disney aspect of the game to see the many many many forms of Original content in the game

 

[M@R!3]

Sora's circumstances are so oddly specific that I want him in just because enough people want him.
All I want is for all Disney references to be excised, and for the Kingdom Key token to be replaced with the Smash logo.
View attachment 278187

And then the realization sets in.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

If Sora ends up in smash and we dont see Axel going "Got it memorized?" in the background of a stage or Victory screen, We riot

 

[KillerCage]

Figured I'd ask another question because I don't have anything else better to do with my life:

What's a 4th party(non-video game) character you would want in Smash, if any?

unless you knew me from the social thread my answer is gonna be very confusing lol
Mine IMO has to be Chronojet Dragon. Now if that name doesn't ring a bell at all, don't worry. It's not a character I feel basically anyone but me knows around here

Spoiler: Spoilering because big image

I've already kinda accepted my most wanteds(being basically all card game characters) are never getting in. Ever. But I still like to speculate on them because I find that more enjoyable than debating on the likelihoods of "who is the most likely to get into Smash right now"
To me Chronojet just looks ****ing cool. That and his whole Stride(essentially reverse time travel where you bring your future self to you) thing is interesting enough I feel it could be a very interesting moveset, in a manner similar to Joker but instead of just Joker's main persona you have a few more options. Really though I just like how he looks. he's a kickass metal dragon who gives no ****s and has WHEELS for feet. ****ING WHEELS. ..how cool is that?

Does this guy count as "4th Party?"

 

[Perkilator]

Does this guy count as "4th Party?"

Nah, more like....65th party.

 

[CannonStreak]

Maybe the next character will be Sarge from Army Men: Sarge's Heroes.

Christmas is coming early this year!

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

people seem to forget KH is basically Nomuras fanfic in game form and with fan fics comes Original content but people are too focused on the mainly useless disney aspect of the game to see the many many many forms of Original content in the game

Plus said Disney aspects are almost never as cool as they could be.
It's not even things like Frozen being a terrible recap, where's Sora Dream Dropping to hit Bill Cipher with an oversized key!?

Or all the cool stuff that happens in Tangled after the movie?

 

[KillerCage]

Nah, more like....65th party.

I was thinking Spiderman, but then I thought it would WAY funnier if Chuggaaconroy got in over everyone else.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

people seem to forget KH is basically Nomuras fanfic in game form and with fan fics comes Original content but people are too focused on the mainly useless disney aspect of the game to see the many many many forms of Original content in the game

Disney owns all original characters that are made in Kingdom Hearts. So, even if you just take all the already established Disney stuff out you’re still left with Disney owning the more story centric characters. Getting rid of Disney isn’t the answer. Getting Disney to play ball is the answer.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Sora's circumstances are so oddly specific that I want him in just because enough people want him.
All I want is for all Disney references to be excised, and for the Kingdom Key token to be replaced with the Smash logo.
View attachment 278187

Yeah, but here's the thing; Sora and co. are fully Disney owned, even if Square-Enix created and developed the series.

So it's not just "oh replace the keychain", it's how much would Disney really allow Nintendo to get with.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Plus said Disney aspects are almost never as cool as they could be.
It's not even things like Frozen being a terrible recap, where's Sora Dream Dropping to hit Bill Cipher with an oversized key!?
View attachment 278194
Or all the cool stuff that happens in Tangled after the movie?

Welp I gotta watch that now. Is it on Disney+?

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Welp I gotta watch that now. Is it on Disney+?

Yep. Though for some weird reason they split up the pilot movie away from the rest of the series.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Disney owns all original characters that are made in Kingdom Hearts. So, even if you just take all the already established Disney stuff out you’re still left with Disney owning the more story centric characters. Getting rid of Disney isn’t the answer. Getting Disney to play ball is the answer.

Im 100% sure Disney does not own Riku, Xemans, Axel ect at all. King Micky and Queen Minnie and the other disney characters, sure but Im not sure about The Org 13 and the rest.

ill ask nicely that If Im wrong, show me.

 

[M@R!3]

Plus said Disney aspects are almost never as cool as they could be.
It's not even things like Frozen being a terrible recap, where's Sora Dream Dropping to hit Bill Cipher with an oversized key!?
View attachment 278194
Or all the cool stuff that happens in Tangled after the movie?

I wouldn't count on Gravity Falls. The guy in charge of that isn't a fan of KH. As far as how they handled Tangled, I think a retelling of the movie is perfectly acceptable for a first appearance. Frozen may as well have been excluded entirely, it was pretty bad.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Im 100% sure Disney does not own Riku, Xemans, Axel ect at all

Except they do, for an easy example, take a look here.
https://www.goodsmile.info/en/product/7559/Nendoroid+Riku.html
Only Disney is credited in the copyright, not Square-Enix, just Disney.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Plus said Disney aspects are almost never as cool as they could be.
It's not even things like Frozen being a terrible recap, where's Sora Dream Dropping to hit Bill Cipher with an oversized key!?
View attachment 278194
Or all the cool stuff that happens in Tangled after the movie?

Nah dog you don't get to dangle Kingdom Hearts X Gravity Falls in front of me and not expect me to suffer forever because it's not true.

Already bad enough that Disney Infinity got shut down just before we got Mabel (and Darkwing Duck).

Im 100% sure Disney does not own Riku, Xemans, Axel ect at all

They do.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Except they do, for an easy example, take a look here.
https://www.goodsmile.info/en/product/7559/Nendoroid+Riku.html
Only Disney is credited in the copyright, not Square-Enix, just Disney.

ah, I see, Well I stand corrected. I was always told they belonged to Nomura and SE

 

[Rie Sonomura]

ah, I see, Well I stand corrected. I was always told they belonged to Nomura and SE

If I recall, they used to, but not anymore for some reason

 

[Digital Hazard]

ah, I see, Well I stand corrected. I was always told they belonged to Nomura and SE

If I recall, they used to, but not anymore for some reason

To be clear, aside from publishing rights, the only thing Square-Enix owns from Kingdom Hearts is whatever they do with their own characters, so that's why Cloud gets to have his KH look as a costume in Dissidia.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

If I recall, they used to, but not anymore for some reason

They took Nomuras kids from him!

 

[zeldasmash]

Disney owns all original characters that are made in Kingdom Hearts. So, even if you just take all the already established Disney stuff out you’re still left with Disney owning the more story centric characters. Getting rid of Disney isn’t the answer. Getting Disney to play ball is the answer.

May I ask where did you find your avatar? I wants it. XD

 

[TriggerX]

Created by Nomura, everything is owned by Disney.

I could care less whether or not Disney is even mentioned as long as Sora is in.
Too much weight is placed on this argument considering the characters in the roster don’t include every single character from their own series and there is enough original Kh content to fill out spirit boards and etc.
Mickey is usually referenced as the King, and Donald and Goofy could be referenced simply as party members for any descriptions.
Twilight Town or Hollow Bastion could provide a setting and cameos that only push original content.

Pretty sure Dream Drop Distance didn’t even have Donald and goofy as active party members and neither did sections of 1-3.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Y’all talking about Sega and not giving Joe Musashi anything? I think he’d be great! And he’s a classic character

Hotsuma and Hibana are better tbh

Although I'm just hoping a Hero situation with Musashi's case

 

[Megadoomer]

ah, I see, Well I stand corrected. I was always told they belonged to Nomura and SE

If the copyright at the start of every Kingdom Hearts game, everything but Final Fantasy and the World Ends With You (which are specifically listed as being owned by Square-Enix) and the occasional movie/franchise (like the Nightmare Before Christmas being credited to Touchstone Pictures, or Tarzan, which is credited to Edgar Rice Burroughs) is owned by Disney. (and even then, Touchstone is a subsidiary of Disney)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Sora talk eh? Something happen that indicates his chances?

 

[Perkilator]

Sora talk eh? Something happen that indicates his chances?

Nope. Just talk.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Pretty sure Dream Drop Distance didn’t even have Donald and goofy as active party members and neither did sections of 1-3.

Pretty much none of the games aside from the numbered entries (1, 2, 3) have Donald and Goofy as active party members, which is more than half the series. That includes every entry that was released on a Nintendo system (Chain of Memories, 358/2 Days, Re: Coded, DDD), along with BBS.

 

[Jomosensual]

Figured I'd ask another question because I don't have anything else better to do with my life:

What's a 4th party(non-video game) character you would want in Smash, if any?

unless you knew me from the social thread my answer is gonna be very confusing lol
Mine IMO has to be Chronojet Dragon. Now if that name doesn't ring a bell at all, don't worry. It's not a character I feel basically anyone but me knows around here

Spoiler: Spoilering because big image

I've already kinda accepted my most wanteds(being basically all card game characters) are never getting in. Ever. But I still like to speculate on them because I find that more enjoyable than debating on the likelihoods of "who is the most likely to get into Smash right now"
To me Chronojet just looks ****ing cool. That and his whole Stride(essentially reverse time travel where you bring your future self to you) thing is interesting enough I feel it could be a very interesting moveset, in a manner similar to Joker but instead of just Joker's main persona you have a few more options. Really though I just like how he looks. he's a kickass metal dragon who gives no ****s and has WHEELS for feet. ****ING WHEELS. ..how cool is that?

For me it would have to be someone with strong Nintendo or video game ties. So either Mike Tyson or Tony Hawk for me

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

All this KH talk with counterarguments and points addressed in my essay got me like:

Disney owns all original characters that are made in Kingdom Hearts. So, even if you just take all the already established Disney stuff out you’re still left with Disney owning the more story centric characters. Getting rid of Disney isn’t the answer. Getting Disney to play ball is the answer.

Speaking of, how do you feel about the current internal climate of Disney towards video games in regards to Sora's chances? I feel a lot's changed in his favor since last we seriously spoke of such, and I'd like to get your opinion on things.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Since Sora is the current discussion. What does everyone think of his actual chances?

Things going for him and barriers against his inclusion?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Since Sora is the current discussion. What does everyone think of his actual chances?

Things going for him and barriers against his inclusion?

Man, if only someone had written a detailed, 4,300+ word argument about just that.

 

[SharkLord]

Since Sora is the current discussion. What does everyone think of his actual chances?

Things going for him and barriers against his inclusion?

I can't tell if he'd be impossible or extremely likely, because Sakurai just said "Smash characters must explicitly be from video games" and didn't go into detail about it, leaving us to scramble over each other to try and make sense of the grey areas. We don't know exactly how strict the internal rules are involving fourth-parties, so maybe guys like Geralt and Sora are off the table, or maybe they're completely fine thanks to loopholes.

As some have mentioned already, Kingdom Hearts still owned by Disney, not Square Enix. You could remove the Disney content, but you still have to go to them to ask. Why go to the Western behemoth and not go for their most iconic characters? On the flip side, how big would the price tag be? Would Nintendo be forced to use the OCs simply because they couldn't afford Mickey and co.?

There's also the fact that Sakurai has stated that Smash tends to honor the beginning of a series, so we have NES Simon over the Chronicles or LoS designs, and classic Pac-Man over the Ghostly Adventures one. Kingdom Hearts started out with Disney, and even if it's begun to wane, there's still a good deal of moments involving the Disney characters even in KH3 (YEETUS VANITAS, anyone?). Even if it's not absolutely integral, it's still a big part of Kingdom Hearts, and removing it would be met with controversy.

There's also the question of if we even need to remove the Disney in the first place. We already have public domain characters in Dracula, so what stops us from taking that extra step forward? It hasn't reached that level yet, but if Min Min proves anything, Smash newcomers exist solely to one-up each other. Sakurai could easily emphasize that "This only happened because the Disney cast are their own incarnation of the characters, and they aren't the fighter. Please understand that this does not mean Goku."

In short, I've got no ****ing clue.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I can't tell if he'd be impossible or extremely likely, because Sakurai just said "Smash characters must explicitly be from video games" and didn't go into detail about it, leaving us to scramble over each other to try and make sense of the grey areas. We don't know exactly how strict the internal rules are involving fourth-parties, so maybe guys like Geralt and Sora are off the table, or maybe they're completely fine thanks to loopholes.

As some have mentioned already, Kingdom Hearts still owned by Disney, not Square Enix. You could remove the Disney content, but you still have to go to them to ask. Why go to the Western behemoth and not go for their most iconic characters? On the flip side, how big would the price tag be? Would Nintendo be forced to use the OCs simply because they couldn't afford Mickey and co.?

There's also the fact that Sakurai has stated that Smash tends to honor the beginning of a series, so we have NES Simon over the Chronicles or LoS designs, and classic Pac-Man over the Ghostly Adventures one. Kingdom Hearts started out with Disney, and even if it's begun to wane, there's still a good deal of moments involving the Disney characters even in KH3 (YEETUS VANITAS, anyone?). Even if it's not absolutely integral, it's still a big part of Kingdom Hearts, and removing it would be met with controversy.

There's also the question of if we even need to remove the Disney in the first place. We already have public domain characters in Dracula, so what stops us from taking that extra step forward? It hasn't reached that level yet, but if Min Min proves anything, Smash newcomers exist solely to one-up each other. Sakurai could easily emphasize that "This only happened because the Disney cast are their own incarnation of the characters, and they aren't the fighter. Please understand that this does not mean Goku."

In short, I've got no ****ing clue.

For what it's worth, Sakurai very much considers Kingdom Hearts a video game series.

Sakurai's thoughts on the Kingdom Heart series. Translation by @KamennoOtoko pic.twitter.com/UBRaWdbeE3

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) April 5, 2017

While negotiations would be with a non-video game company, let's not pretend such things haven't happened in the past. Banjo is owned by Xbox, which is owned by Microsoft, also a non-video game company.

I also doubt Sora appearing without Disney would cost any significant controversy. Fans would just be glad to see him in, especially given his longshot nature.

It really comes down to how negotiations with Disney go, which is such a wild card in speculation on Sora I honestly don't know how it'd go.