Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[osby]

They are purely the same aesthetically. Try doing Byleth's final Classic battle and picking yourself out among the crowd, it's near impossible outside of a little P1 arrow.

I don't remember having difficulty with that part at all, to be honest.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Mario is tolerated because it's literally the biggest franchise in video game history you goddamn clown.

And Pokemon given its popularity as well as variety of characters (Pokemon) with moveset potential.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mario is tolerated because it's literally the biggest franchise in video game history you goddamn clown.

That wasn't the argument made, I was told Mario characters were tolerated because they're aestheticslly very different despite Mario's cast in Smash not being aesthetically different at all with all the girls looking like each other and all the humans looking like each other, including Mario But Again. People say every FE character is just Marth but a literal second Mario, the exact same character but with a different outfit, rarely sees that kind of mockery. Foolish fool

 

[Proceleon]

So Roy's hitboxes being smaller and inverted when compared to Marth which demands more rushdown instead of spacing doesn't count nor do Lucina and Chrom's consistent hitboxes, which for the former, makes Lucina a significantly better character than Marth both casually and competitively?

Well.. no. hitboxes aren't mechanics like Pichu has.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

And Pokemon given its popularity as well as variety of characters (Pokemon) with moveset potential.

You mean like how fire emblem also has a enormous variety of characters to chose from with a nice array of moveset potential?

 

[Schnee117]

Each Fire Emblem character is as differentiated as Pichu, and more differentiated than Daisy.

Remember how her one difference got patched out.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Mario is tolerated because it's literally the biggest franchise in video game history you goddamn clown.

We're speculating about fictional characters in a party fighting game. No need to be rude and throw out insults like that.

 

[Arcanir]

They are purely the same aesthetically. Try doing Byleth's final Classic battle and picking yourself out among the crowd, it's near impossible outside of a little P1 arrow.

I'm pretty sure people can tell the difference between the one that turns into a dragon from the one that's shooting out bolts of lightning or the one with a chain sword. They're not nearly as visually monotonous as you're trying to make them out to be.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well.. no. hitboxes aren't mechanics like Pichu has.

They are indeed mechanics. The tipper demands a different playstyle because they cannot play alike. Also if hurting yourself makes you unique then Roy and Chrom get to be unique right?

 

[Opossum]

Well.. no. hitboxes aren't mechanics like Pichu has.

Hitboxes are literally mechanical differences. The only difference between that and Pichu is that one of Pichu's hitboxes on each electric attack is self-hurting.

And it's not even the only self-damaging Pokémon on the roster, to add insult to literal injury.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hitboxes are literally mechanical differences. The only difference between that and Pichu is that one of Pichu's hitboxes on each electric attack is self-hurting.

And it's not even the only self-damaging Pokémon on the roster, to add insult to literal injury.

It took me a good 15 seconds to remember Charizard's Flare Blitz. I wish I could forget Charizard like that more often tbh

 

[SonicMario]

Some people feared that. Remember, Sonic's design isn't his old Classic design, and it's not like Pac-Man is just a circle with a pizza slice cut out of it. Plus people were cynical about Microsoft because it was Microsoft.

To be fair, it's a different situation for Sonic. Even at the time he was included in Brawl. The Sonic Adventure redesign had been Sonic's default for longer then the classic years (1991-1997 compared to 1998-2007). Was his design for when he first got on a Nintendo system, and relatively people didn't really have a problem with Sonic's adventure design (I mean there were probably classic fans that raised concerns at the moment the redesign was announced but otherwise never seemed to get any huge backlash until Sonic 4 happened with the people complaining about green eyes). Meanwhile Pac-Man's ghostly adventures design was not received well to the point even Sakurai might of preferred to go more so with the Pac-Man World design. And with Banjo, Nuts and Bolts made the sort of uglified Banjo part of it's twisted humor as part of the joke that Banjo has gotten fat and lazy since Tooie. In Smash, it was proper to bring Banjo and Kazooie back in their full glory.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I always find it funny how people hate on the amount of Fire Emblem characters when 3 of them are literally just alterations of one character, and the rest are completely unique fighters with different, unique movesets (just like the Mario or Pokémon characters).

If Roy weren't in the game it's not like another character would've appeared in his place. Same case with Lucina and Chrom. Either they're in, or they're not. It's that simple. They're 3 additional characters that took little development time and resources to implement in the grand scheme of things.

It honestly feels like people complaining because they got 3 cherries on top of their cake when they could've gotten none. You get an entire ****ing cake and here you are complaining about the cherries on top. Like, why can't you just be happy for the people who like cherries?

 

[Proceleon]

You mean like how fire emblem also has a enormous variety of characters to chose from with a nice array of moveset potential?

You are RIGHT, FE DOES have a huge array of varied and unique characters and fighting styles...
And Smash manages to include a whole like, four styles! No axe, no lance, no bows, just swords, one book, a dragon for some reason and a few directional specials that were only chosen because even Sakurai's sick of seeing the same thing over and over.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

No axe, no lance, no bows, just swords,

Byleth literally has an axe, lance, and bow within their moveset

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You are RIGHT, FE DOES have a huge array of varied and unique characters and fighting styles...
And Smash manages to include a whole like, three styles! No axe, no lance, no bows, just swords, one book, a dragon for some reason and a few directional specials that were only chosen because even Sakurai's sick of seeing the same thing over and over.

We just got a character who uses a lance, bow and axe. Just because it's not the entire moveset doesn't mean it's not there, though this is indeed a common criticism among FE fans

 

[Proceleon]

Byleth literally has axes, lances, and bows within their moveset

We just got a character who uses a lance, bow and axe. Just because it's not the entire moveset doesn't mean it's not there, though this is indeed a common criticism among FE fans

Read the whole comment. Byleth's counted.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I just wanted Lyn, to be honest

 

[Deleted member]

You are RIGHT, FE DOES have a huge array of varied and unique characters and fighting styles...
And Smash manages to include a whole like, three styles! No axe, no lance, no bows, just swords, one book, a dragon for some reason and a few directional specials that were only chosen because even Sakurai's sick of seeing the same thing over and over.

There's something I've noticed with weapon arguments. When it's brought up that Byleth uses multiple weapons instead of just a sword, people go, "Okay. But he doesn't really use them interestingly."

So it's not the weapon that matters after all, it's how you use it. Kind of like a SWORD

E: This isn't meant to be antagonistic with you Proc. I'm just talking in general.

 

[Deleted member]

Well.. no. hitboxes aren't mechanics like Pichu has.

This thread is a circus and we are all clowns putting up a show

 

[N3ON]

I think momentarily losing track of yourself in an 8-player match on a smallish stage is a valid observation, but I’d probably have the same amount of trouble if you swapped half the FE characters for other humanish characters with darker colour schemes or palette swaps.

But even if you had eight very different looking and coloured characters, there’s still a chance I would need a second at some point during the match, because there’s just a lot going on with eight characters on screen and all the particle effects that follow.

If two characters get hit by the same attack and go flying, aincha never gone “**** which one am I?”. Not an uncommon occurrence when there’s eight little ****ers running around on a stage built for four.

So what’s my excuse? Idk, I guess I’m just OLD AND BAD, ALRIGHT

 

[Opossum]

Read the whole comment. Byleth's counted.

Robin literally only has one more tome attack than Byleth has lance attacks, but you counted Robin as a tome user but claimed Areadbhar was only a "directional special."

 

[Deleted member]

I think momentarily losing track of yourself in an 8-player match on a smallish stage is a valid observation, but I’d probably have the same amount of trouble if you swapped half the FE characters for other humanish characters with darker colour schemes or palette swaps.

But even if you had eight very different looking and coloured characters, there’s still a chance I would need a second at some point during the match, because there’s just a lot going on with eight characters on screen and all the particle effects that follow.

If two characters get hit by the same attack and go flying, aincha never gone “**** which one am I?”. Not an uncommon occurrence when there’s eight little ****ers running around on a stage built for four.

So what’s my excuse? Idk, I guess I’m just OLD AND BAD, ALRIGHT

You should try eight-player smash, handheld mode screen size, Great Cave Offensive. I can barely see myself, let alone, accurately hit my opponents.

 

[Proceleon]

There's something I've noticed with weapon arguments. When it's brought up that Byleth uses multiple weapons instead of just a sword, people go, "Okay. But he doesn't really use them interestingly."

So it's not the weapon that matters after all, it's how you use it. Kind of like a SWORD

E: This isn't meant to be antagonistic with you Proc. I'm just talking in general.

Oh, his moveset's interesting, don't get me wrong, it's good they managed it, but the lack of any character that primarily, and I emphasize PRIMARILY uses another weapon is actually not doing a good job reflecting the series as a whole.

 

[Schnee117]

This thread is a circus and we are all clowns putting up a show

We are the entire circus.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I always find it funny how people hate on the amount of Fire Emblem characters when 3 of them are literally just alterations of one character, and the rest are completely unique fighters with different, unique movesets (just like the Mario or Pokémon characters).

If Roy weren't in the game it's not like another character would've appeared in his place. Same case with Lucina and Chrom. Either they're in, or they're not. It's that simple. They're 3 additional characters that took little development time and resources to implement in the grand scheme of things.

It honestly feels like people complaining because they got 3 cherries on top of their cake when they could've gotten none. You get an entire ****ing cake and here you are complaining about the cherries on top. Like, why can't you just be happy for the people who like cherries?

Smash fans complaining because a franchise that isn't their favourite didn't get total attention and a different franchise got more fanservice? No.... Actually though that reminds me of that one guy who threw a fit because Terry got to have more songs than Banjo

Read the whole comment. Byleth's counted.

Oh I'm sorry, I can't tell when something acrually counts or not with you as you unironically said that the differences with the hitboxes, which make the characters play cimoletely different from Marth, even the one who has the same animations and stats, didn't count to make them not literally just the exact same character again

 

[pinshadow]

I always find it funny how people hate on the amount of Fire Emblem characters when 3 of them are literally just alterations of one character, and the rest are completely unique fighters with different, unique movesets (just like the Mario or Pokémon characters.

If Roy weren't in the game it's not like another character would've appeared in his place. Same case with Lucina and Chrom. Either they're in, or they're not. It's that simple. They're 3 additional characters that took little development time and resources to implement in the grand scheme of things.

It honestly feels like people complaining because they got 3 cherries on top of their cake when they could've gotten none. You get an entire ****ing cake and here you are complaining about the cherries on top. Like, why can't you just be happy for the people who like cherries?

Cool, lets play a game then, take out all the clones.

Spoiler: List

Mario : Mario, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Bowser Jr, and Plant 6
Yoshi: Yoshi 1
Donkey Kong: Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, K.Rool 3
Zelda : Link, Sheik, Zelda 3
Metroid : Samus, Ridley, Zero Suit 3
Kirby: Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight 3
Star Fox: Fox 1
Pokemon : Pikachu, Mewtwo, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer, Greninja, Incineroar 6/8 (I don't know whether to count Jigglypuff and a clone since she kinda is from Kirby but ehhhhhh)
F-Zero: Falcon 1
Mother: Ness 1
Ice Climber: 1
Fire Emblem: Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, Byleth 5
Game and Watch : 1
Kid Icarus: Pit, Paluetna 2
Wario: 1
Metal Gear: Snake 1
Sonic: 1
ROB: 1
Pikmin: Olimar 1
Animal Crossing: Villager 1
Punch Out: Little Mac 1
Mii's: Brawler, Swordfighter, Gunner 3
Wii Fit : 1
Pac Man: 1
Xenoblade: Shulk 1
Duck Hunt : 1
Final Fantasy : Cloud 1
Bayonetta : 1
Street Fighter : Ryu 1
Splatoon : Inkling 1
Castlevania: Simon 1
Persona : Joker 1
Dragon Quest : Hero 1
Banjo : 1
Fatal Fury : Terry 1

Fire Emblem is still the most 3rd most represented Franchise by two characters, and now Zelda only has 3.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, his moveset's interesting, don't get me wrong, it's good they managed it, but the lack of any character that primarily, and I emphasize PRIMARILY uses another weapon is actually not doing a good job reflecting the series as a whole.

I agree to an extent. To be honest, there's not a lot of accurate ways to represent Fire Emblem, even if you switch up what weapons people use. Fire Emblem is about turn-based strategy with RPG and resource mechanics sprinkled in. The only person who's ever come close to this playstyle is Robin and his weapon durability.

Also being honest, I highly doubt a spear or axe is going to make people suddenly more accepting of more Fire Emblem characters now. It's just how Fire Emblem in Smash is treated.

 

[osby]

Oh, his moveset's interesting, don't get me wrong, it's good they managed it, but the lack of any character that primarily, and I emphasize PRIMARILY uses another weapon is actually not doing a good job reflecting the series as a whole.

Hard disagree.

Robin might be using a sword just like Ike or Marth but they also show elemental magic, magic tiers, weapon durability and switching weapons mid-battle. Just because Smash fans can't see past swords doesn't mean there is not more to FE characters' movesets.

This is like saying Ganondorf and Zelda don't reflect different sides of LoZ just because they both fight with their hands and feet.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Cool, lets play a game then, take out all the clones.

Spoiler: List

Mario : Mario, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Bowser Jr, and Plant 6
Yoshi: Yoshi 1
Donkey Kong: Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, K.Rool 3
Zelda : Link, Sheik, Zelda 3
Metroid : Samus, Ridley, Zero Suit 3
Kirby: Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight 3
Star Fox: Fox 1
Pokemon : Pikachu, Mewtwo, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer, Greninja, Incineroar 6/8 (I don't know whether to count Jigglypuff and a clone since she kinda is from Kirby but ehhhhhh)
F-Zero: Falcon 1
Mother: Ness 1
Ice Climber: 1
Fire Emblem: Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, Byleth 5
Game and Watch : 1
Kid Icarus: Pit, Paluetna 2
Wario: 1
Metal Gear: Snake 1
Sonic: 1
ROB: 1
Pikmin: Olimar 1
Animal Crossing: Villager 1
Punch Out: Little Mac 1
Mii's: Brawler, Swordfighter, Gunner 3
Wii Fit : 1
Pac Man: 1
Xenoblade: Shulk 1
Duck Hunt : 1
Final Fantasy : Cloud 1
Bayonetta : 1
Street Fighter : Ryu 1
Splatoon : Inkling 1
Castlevania: Simon 1
Persona : Joker 1
Dragon Quest : Hero 1
Banjo : 1
Fatal Fury : Terry 1

Fire Emblem is still the most 3rd most represented Franchise by two characters, and now Zelda only has 3.

Zelda still has a ****-ton of stages, items (including Assist Trophies), and music.

There's other forms of representation besides characters.

 

[Proceleon]

Cool, lets play a game then, take out all the clones.

Spoiler: List

Mario : Mario, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Bowser Jr, and Plant 6
Yoshi: Yoshi 1
Donkey Kong: Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, K.Rool 3
Zelda : Link, Sheik, Zelda 3
Metroid : Samus, Ridley, Zero Suit 3
Kirby: Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight 3
Star Fox: Fox 1
Pokemon : Pikachu, Mewtwo, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer, Greninja, Incineroar 6/8 (I don't know whether to count Jigglypuff and a clone since she kinda is from Kirby but ehhhhhh)
F-Zero: Falcon 1
Mother: Ness 1
Ice Climber: 1
Fire Emblem: Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, Byleth 5
Game and Watch : 1
Kid Icarus: Pit, Paluetna 2
Wario: 1
Metal Gear: Snake 1
Sonic: 1
ROB: 1
Pikmin: Olimar 1
Animal Crossing: Villager 1
Punch Out: Little Mac 1
Mii's: Brawler, Swordfighter, Gunner 3
Wii Fit : 1
Pac Man: 1
Xenoblade: Shulk 1
Duck Hunt : 1
Final Fantasy : Cloud 1
Bayonetta : 1
Street Fighter : Ryu 1
Splatoon : Inkling 1
Castlevania: Simon 1
Persona : Joker 1
Dragon Quest : Hero 1
Banjo : 1
Fatal Fury : Terry 1

Fire Emblem is still the most 3rd most represented Franchise by two characters, and now Zelda only has 3.

Yes. Roster good!
Ganon can be given a new moveset that usually suits him rather than just being Edgy Falcon, but otherwise *clap* good roster!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Zelda still has a ****-ton of stages, items (including Assist Trophies), and music.

There's other forms of representation besides characters.

Ironically enough FE was sorely lacking in that department until Ultimate which gave it an item, more than 1 AT and the top 3 most music tracks

 

[P.Kat]

I just wanted Lyn, to be honest

Same here, she literally the only FE character I want at this point with how popular she's been in FEH and FE in general, it still shocks me that she got the AT treatment.

 

[Opossum]

Oh, his moveset's interesting, don't get me wrong, it's good they managed it, but the lack of any character that primarily, and I emphasize PRIMARILY uses another weapon is actually not doing a good job reflecting the series as a whole.

Byleth has more moves that use the Sword of the Creator than the individual Heroes' Relics, but it's a plurality, not a majority.

Seven attacks use the Sword of the Creator (eight if you count Progenitor God Ruptured Heaven)
Four moves use Areadbhar
Three moves use Aymr
Two moves use Failnaught

7/8 vs 9

 

[Deleted member]

Everybody here be comparing the size of FE and Zelda representation while I'm just waiting for another Xenoblade character.

 

[pinshadow]

Same here, she literally the only FE character I want at this point with how popular she's been in FEH and FE in general, it still shocks me that she got the AT treatment.

Because Fire Emblem only keeps getting characters every game because they have new games they want to promote.

 

[Schnee117]

Oh, his moveset's interesting, don't get me wrong, it's good they managed it, but the lack of any character that primarily, and I emphasize PRIMARILY uses another weapon is actually not doing a good job reflecting the series as a whole.

This is where the issue comes from Smash always opting for the main protagonist and FE's main protagonists typically being sword users.
Like for other major characters you have a waterbending dancer that uses a lance and sings magic songs that provide buffs and an armoured axe user with magic and battalions.

But they miss out because they're not the main protagonist

 

[MooMew64]

Yeah coming from someone who is a huge Zelda fan, Zelda's Smash representation is fine. Zelda has stages, music, ATs, Spirits, and more across the whole series.

Like, not to be rude here, but some of y'all act like all you do in Smash is boot it up and stare at the CSS screen to see who is and isn't on it and form arguments based off of supposed injustices done to a vague concept of franchise ratios. To each their own of course, but I just don't like seeing it that way. Smash is a game that I play and enjoy all the aspects of, and looking at all the aspects? Zelda's got a lot of love. Do I wish Midna was playable? Yes, but I'll take her as an AT over not having her at all, personally.

 

[Proceleon]

Byleth has more moves that use the Sword of the Creator than the individual Heroes' Relics, but it's a plurality, not a majority.

Seven attacks use the Sword of the Creator (eight if you count Progenitor God Ruptured Heaven)
Four moves use Areadbhar
Three moves use Aymr
Two moves use Failnaught

7/8 vs 9

That's 7 vs 4 vs 3 vs 2. The Heroes' Relics are not one weapon.

Yeah coming from someone who is a huge Zelda fan, Zelda's Smash representation is fine. Zelda has stages, music, ATs, Spirits, and more across the whole series.

Like, not to be rude here, but some of y'all act like all you do in Smash is boot it up and stare at the CSS screen to see who is and isn't on it and form arguments based off of supposed injustices done to a vague concept of franchise ratios. To each their own of course, but I just don't like seeing it that way. Smash is a game that I play and enjoy all the aspects of, and looking at all the aspects? Zelda's got a lot of love. Do I wish Midna was playable? Yes, but I'll take her as an AT over not having her at all, personally.

The thing with Zelda is that it's got so few consistent characters outside the Triforcers. Midna, Ghirahim, Skull Kid and others just show up for one, maybe two games and are never heard from again. Impa's usually there, but outside of maybe three games she's been old and frail. Character selection is just hard what so few faces stick around.
Now watch Epona get in as a Fighter.

 

[Opossum]

Same here, she literally the only FE character I want at this point with how popular she's been in FEH and FE in general, it still shocks me that she got the AT treatment.

One thing to keep in mind is that the roster was decided in 2015. Intelligent Systems said they were surprised to see Lyn was as popular as she was on the first Choose Your Legends poll, which was in 2017. For all intents and purposes, her popularity was made known to them too late to factor into Smash.