Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

I know it's a hella obscure franchise, and it's Smash representation is solely from possibly the most obscure game in the franchise, but can we get more FFVII stuff?

 

[Calamitas]

... Well, as someone who also isn't from US or Japan, I think there are several other reasons why Terry and SNK came to Smash other than regional appeal, for example. I mean, obviously it's an important factor, but I don't think it should be the argument to end all discussions. It's just like sales.

The series that are considered "niche" also have other things to let them stand on their own. And while I cannot speak for Calamitas, that's what I got from their post.

Yeah, that's about what I meant. A series/character should have a couple of things more going for it than just selling well in a specific territory. That's like saying that Smash needs a Starcraft character because the series is really big in South Korea.
Also, with how some people here talk about these "regional tastes", you'd think that series are popular in Japan and the US can't also be popular elsewhere.

What bothers me the most is to have a lack of F-Zero and Earthbound characters. Just two for F-Zero and One for Earthbound to have at least the main vilain of each series and a side character for F-Zero. It's not much ask I think ?

I agree with osby here. Earthbound is already pretty well off. For a series that never really sold that well, had a grand total of three games, and is officially finished, having two unique characters, two assist trophies, four stages and tons of music is already far more than enough. By comparison, Xenoblade has the same amount of (unique) games, and has one stage, one character, and one assist trophy.

I know it's a hella obscure franchise, and it's Smash representation is solely from possibly the most obscure game in the franchise, but can we get more FFVII stuff?

"FFVII"? What's that? I never heard of that game. Is that one with the spiky-haired Shulk named something like "Clod Rife"?

 

[M@R!3]

She does it during the boss fight actually. When she is recovering health in the first phase and also when she possesses the AU 313.

It is hard to miss if you're not paying attention. Its a lot more obvious in Prime 2 since she does it during cutscenes.

Really? Guess that's what I get for not playing Prime 3 as much as the first two.

 

[SKX31]

The dummy slots also constitute alternate costumes (Joker takes two, Hero takes four, Bowser Jr. takes eight, etc.).

Forgot about that, truth be told. It's still the closest to any actual evidence we have (unless they have another version that's expanded on it further).

EDIT: ... for one, I don't think most people here would have called a character from SNK if we were just going from that standpoint. I can see people pointing to MOBAs and other popular online and mobile games, but ignoring SNK despite all of the other factors I said. That may be just a trait of Smashboards, however.

Okay, to tell you the truth: The main reasons I've been bullish on a MOBA character are only partly related to popularity. For all of LoL's and Dota 2's negatives, they've got a lot of positives to bring. Beyond Tencent being close to Nintendo and Sakurai possibly having talked with Valve (albeit about Gordon, so I doubt that counts):

*LoL and Dota 2 have been incredibly influential not just within E-sports, but they contributed heavily to changing the Internet landscape. Twitch, Discord etc. became widely used partly because the two MOBAs gained steam. LoL especially became famous for its streamers - my signature comes from a Phillipine Dota 2 cast that became memetic regardless of country (allowing Valve to effectively sell it multiple times as part of its pro tournament Pass). Which leads me to:

*Streamers and the two games' patch notes changed how people communicate with devs (since some devs stream too). Devs give exact details on what changed, and in LoL's case why. Hoo boy every patch has people hyping / complaning about X change. Still, I've seen Smash fans wish their patches were nearly as detailed (coming from a MOBA I wish that too).

*The main devs are long runners. Dota 2's main dev - and Dota's third main dev - (Dota's original creator also works at Valve nowadays) has been devving Dota since 2005. LoL has had Dota's second main dev in their employ since LoL started around 2009. This contributes to the MOBAs' staying power being about equal to Minecraft's. That's not something a lot of games can claim.

There are also bonus reasons, like Dota 2 being used as a tool to teach AI - the AI got good enough to mechanically beat pro players, by the by.

Now, something like that mobile LoL ripoff that Tencent ported to the Switch? Hate that myself because of its origins alone.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I hate to be that guy, but what do more niche series have that let them compare to more popular ones?

Charm.

Also why we need main villains for the sake of having main villains?

Because they're rad.

 

[---]

I'm pretty sure when they decided to do more DLC beyond the Fighters Pass that Nintendo assigned him additional budget accordingly.

Probably, but we don't know for sure which is my overall point. Sakurai has stressed in multiple recent interviews that he was well over budget but given the timing of the filming of the Banjo video it's hard to tell. Until October's Famitsu, most likely, the corporate politics of how the decision to add future character(s) came to be is relatively unknown, as is the state of development as a whole, and should be taken into consideration from a speculation stand point.

But yeah, I'm pessimistic.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Charm.

But like, does Charm do much? More popular series also have Charm.

If you like a series and want it because it has charm that's great, but to use it as a point in favor of a series doesn't really lend itself to a strong argument.

 

[osby]

Charm.

Charm is just a cheap tactic to make weak series stronger.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But like, does Charm do much? More popular series also have Charm.

If you like a series and want it because it has charm that's great, but to use it as a point in favor of a series doesn't really lend itself to a strong argument.

Charm increases the power of Gambits and provided your chosen unit has a Charm stat of 13, they can become a Dancer after winning the White Heron Cup

 

[EricTheGamerman]

For two dead/finished series that never exactly topped the sales charts? Apparently.

Why people think those two deserves special treatment just because they were in Smash 64? Earthbound is actually in a pretty good spot for such a niche franchise.

Also why we need main villains for the sake of having main villains?

Because we get Smash 64 bingo if have all of the villains of the original 12 of course!

 

[3BitSaurus]

Okay, to tell you the truth: The main reasons I've been bullish on a MOBA character are only partly related to popularity. For all of LoL's and Dota 2's negatives, they've got a lot of positives to bring. Beyond Tencent being close to Nintendo and Sakurai possibly having talked with Valve (albeit about Gordon, so I doubt that counts):

*LoL and Dota 2 have been incredibly influential not just within E-sports, but they contributed heavily to changing the Internet landscape. Twitch, Discord etc. became widely used partly because the two MOBAs gained steam. LoL especially became famous for its streamers - my signature comes from a Phillipine Dota 2 cast that became memetic regardless of country (allowing Valve to effectively sell it multiple times as part of its pro tournament Pass). Which leads me to:

*Streamers and the two games' patch notes changed how people communicate with devs (since some devs stream too). Devs give exact details on what changed, and in LoL's case why. Hoo boy every patch has people hyping / complaning about X change. Still, I've seen Smash fans wish their patches were nearly as detailed (coming from a MOBA I wish that too).

*The main devs are long runners. Dota 2's main dev - and Dota's third main dev - (Dota's original creator also works at Valve nowadays) has been devving Dota since 2005. LoL has had Dota's second main dev in their employ since LoL started around 2009. This contributes to the MOBAs' staying power being about equal to Minecraft's. That's not something a lot of games can claim.

There are also bonus reasons, like Dota 2 being used as a tool to teach AI - the AI got good enough to mechanically beat pro players, by the by.

Now, something like that mobile LoL ripoff that Tencent ported to the Switch? Hate that myself because of its origins alone.

Oh, yes, I'm aware of that, my point in that edit was that if people just took "regional appeal" as the be-all, end-all, they would have just jumped on these games without considering anything else... like SNK, which was very much a contender.

But yeah, I have to admit I've been flirting with the idea of a League character in Smash. It's almost funny how much it makes sense to me, but that may just be my time as a player talking. I'm considering going back and playing a few matches, it's been, like... 2 seasons or so.

Since Riot bought Rising Thunder's studio, I've been waiting for a LoL fighting game. Unless it's Infinite levels bad, a fighting game with RT's mechanics and League champions is very much of interest to me.

Actually... didn't Riot make their own Brawl mod with league champions a few years ago?

 

[yeet123]

Charm is just a cheap tactic to make weak series stronger.

This is incorrect

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This is incorrect

How strange, only 2 of your examples have a unique style

 

[yeet123]

How strange, only 2 of your examples have a unique style

also incorrect

additionally, uniqueness doesn't equal charm. so double incorrect... woof

 

[ZelDan]

You know what game has charm? fire Emblem Three Houses. It even plays an important part in gameplay and acquiring a certain class.

EDELGARD FOR SMASH.

 

[yeet123]

You know what game has charm? fire Emblem Three Houses. It even plays an important part in gameplay and acquiring a certain class.

EDELGARD FOR SMASH.

Fire Emblem needs more reps in Smash. We only have 17... wtf Hackurai???

 

[Pokelego999]

You know what game has charm? fire Emblem Three Houses. It even plays an important part in gameplay and acquiring a certain class.

EDELGARD FOR SMASH.

Why Edelgard? Why add a side character (or one of the main characters, don't drill me) before the actual main protagonist?

 

[N3ON]

I'm glad we put aside subjective terms like iconography and deservedness and can now argue over the clearly objective quality of "charm".

 

[Pokelego999]

I'm glad we put aside subjective terms like iconography and deservedness and can now argue over the clearly objective quality of "charm".

The only one of those topics thats important is iconography. Why add an unimportant, not liked, not known character to the game when characters like Toad, Dixie Kong, and the dee aren't in yet

 

[ZelDan]

I wish we could get more characters from iconic older franchises with alot of charm. they truly are deserving.

 

[yeet123]

I'm glad we put aside subjective terms like iconography and deservedness and can now argue over the clearly objective quality of "charm".

All I'm saying is that charm isn't "just a cheap tactic to make weak series stronger."

 

[Schnee117]

Why Edelgard? Why add a side character (or one of the main characters, don't drill me) before the actual main protagonist?

She's the most important character in the game aside from the blank avatar character.

 

[Pokelego999]

She's the most important character in the game aside from the blank avatar character.

Yeah, but at least the blank avatar character is the main protagonist

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, but at least the blank avatar character is the main protagonist

Which is why Chrom was playable in Smash 4 with Robin being his final smash

 

[Slashy]

One thing people overlook when discussing Assist Trophy promotion is the spirit battles that require the Assist Trophies to spawn. It is highly unlikely that Sakurai is going to delete spirits from the game, and the assist trophies are forced to spawn to make the spirit battles work. He could just allow doubles to exist like with Chrom, but at the same point Knuckles can't spawn on GHZ because he might appear in the background...

Oddly enough despite having two spirit battles dedicated to the Black Knight, neither force his assist trophy to spawn in.

 

[Pokelego999]

Which is why Chrom was playable in Smash 4 with Robin being his final smash

Exac-WAIT A MINUTE

 

[Rie Sonomura]

One thing people overlook when discussing Assist Trophy promotion is the spirit battles that require the Assist Trophies to spawn. It is highly unlikely that Sakurai is going to delete spirits from the game, and the assist trophies are forced to spawn to make the spirit battles work. He could just allow doubles to exist like with Chrom, but at the same point Knuckles can't spawn on GHZ because he might appear in the background...

Oddly enough despite having two spirit battles dedicated to the Black Knight, neither force his assist trophy to spawn in.

Last I checked Spring Man’s Spirit Battle doesn’t force his AT to appear either

 

[Schnee117]

Oddly enough despite having two spirit battles dedicated to the Black Knight, neither force his assist trophy to spawn in.

Burger King gang rise up

 

[N3ON]

The only one of those topics thats important is iconography. Why add an unimportant, not liked, not known character to the game when characters like Toad, Dixie Kong, and the dee aren't in yet

None of it matters. Or, to be more accurate, none of what we think matters. They're subjective terms, contingent on opinion. Our opinions don't dictate the roster, only Sakurai's does. We can have our own thoughts on who qualifies as what, but since it won't inherently correlate to who gets a spot on the roster, assigning those labels is, ultimately, pretty futile. And that's without considering that we barely ever reach a consensus anyway.

Focusing on more objective qualities like popularity, prevalence, and in some cases, recency, is of greater use.

All I'm saying is that charm isn't "just a cheap tactic to make weak series stronger."

No, but were it that it would probably actually help chances more than it does.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Exac-WAIT A MINUTE

And why Marth isn't playable but rather Kris

 

[Calamitas]

She's the most important character in the game aside from the blank avatar character.

Excuse me, but you're clearly forgetting the most charming, deserving and all-around best option from Three Houses for Smash.

Spoiler

GATEKEEPER
HAS NOTHING TO REPORT

 

[Guynamednelson]

One thing people overlook when discussing Assist Trophy promotion is the spirit battles that require the Assist Trophies to spawn. It is highly unlikely that Sakurai is going to delete spirits from the game, and the assist trophies are forced to spawn to make the spirit battles work. He could just allow doubles to exist like with Chrom, but at the same point Knuckles can't spawn on GHZ because he might appear in the background...

Oddly enough despite having two spirit battles dedicated to the Black Knight, neither force his assist trophy to spawn in.

Most of those spirit battles already have the fighter be a stand-in for the AT character anyway. It would only be a problem for when the AT spawns for reasons other than it being an AT character's spirit battle. (IE: The Porygon battle has Akira spawn because he's polygonal.)

 

[N3ON]

Excuse me, but you're clearly forgetting the most charming, deserving and all-around best option from Three Houses for Smash.

Spoiler

GATEKEEPER
HAS NOTHING TO REPORT

Smash already has too many gatekeepers as it is.

 

[ROBnWatch]

I agree with osby here. Earthbound is already pretty well off. For a series that never really sold that well, had a grand total of three games, and is officially finished, having two unique characters, two assist trophies, four stages and tons of music is already far more than enough.

As an EarthBound fan, I agree with most of this (though obviously I would love more content, especially having a certain main villain playable). Except for the music. We have 14 tracks, 2 of which are remixes of themes we already have remixes of. So a total of 12 “unique” tracks.

And knowing the EarthBound series’ music pretty well, 12-14 is not enough.

 

[Aetheri]

Y'know what character has s lot of charm?

Midna...


stupid assist trophy TT

 

[ZelDan]

Smash already has too many gatekeepers as it is.

If we were to get a gatekeeper from FE:3H, Seteth would be a better pick anyways.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Charm is just a cheap tactic to make weak series stronger.

I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

 

[Calamitas]

I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

It's a reference.

 

[Idon]

I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

Good.

Because it's a joke.

And a Steven Universe reference.

 

[GoodGrief741]

It's a reference.

Good.

Because it's a joke.

And a Steven Universe reference.

Oh okay nevermind.