Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[CapitaineCrash]

I don't get why people complalining his really a big deal. People have the right to share their opinions on character that are in the game, even if it's positive or negative.

 

[Schnee117]

I don't get why people complalining his really a big deal. People have the right to share their opinions on character that are in the game, even if it's positive or negative.

No one minds the negative opinions so long as they're shared properly.
People take issue with the dumb justifications (that you don't even need, you can just have an opinion and leave it at that) and the beating of a dead horse.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I don't get why people complaining his really a big deal. People have the right to share their opinions on character that are in the game, even if it's positive or negative.

People are free to voice their dissatisfaction. But:

• A). There's a difference between constructive criticism and complaining. The former is appreciated, and the latter is annoying.

AND

• B). The logic that people use to complain is faulty, and when they try to pass off that logic as fact it makes them look ignorant and annoys everyone here.

To take a logical approach to this, I'll lay out the structure of the argument "Character X stole Character Y's slot (with Character X and Character Y being stand-ins for any character)."

Character X is in Smash Bros.
Character Y is not in Smash Bros.
Character X got in Smash Bros. over Character Y

Can you all see where the problem lies in this argument? There's no relation between Character X and Character Y. Joker's inclusion doesn't exclude any characters, and complaining about it doesn't change anything. Especially when you're complaining to this thread multiple times a week. It gets old fast.

 

[Deleted member]

That part about Piranha Plant being more recognizable over a main character of a not-so well known franchise sure is something. Poor lads like Takamaru and Isaac probably fell under that unfortunate category, but at least they're assist trophies and not just a spirit only.

...but Sakurai never said anything about a side character that only appeared once in a Mario game so Mallow from Super Mario RPG totally has a chance now!

 

[Aetheri]

Are we really complaining about characters that are in the game? Like I get complaining about characters not making, but complaining about characters making it.

I'm not, I'm merely saying that not every character needs to have a coherent reason to make it in the roster. In this case whether or not they 'deserve' or need a spot on the roster.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Seriously. This is funny fighting party game. I get most people have emotional investment into these characters, but it's nothing personal, and it's not life or death.

party game

HOWDAREYOUCALLITAPARTYGAMEIT'SALEGITAMATEFIGHTINGGAMEAAAAASVGONWEROBIOG!!!11!11111!!!1!11!

How can a bunch of codes steal anything?

Well. You see...when a person or group of people feels like it they can send out emails/redirect legitimate links/hack you/insert their USB into your USB port/any number of things and download a program that bricks your device, encrypts all of your data, copies it, ect. and can then commit fraud with your identity or otherwise ruin you. That's why you need security. So you can maybe stop that from happening or maybe fix it when it does happen before any real damage is done. Information Tech Security: No one is safe!

They really should do more Mii costumes that cover the whole face.

Got it! I'll add a paper bag hat so no one can see your ugly face!


I joke about this, but it sounds funny enough for me to actually want that.
EDIT: Maybe we should get an ArcSystem Works character so that we can have a Foust hat.
EDIT EDIT: Or better yet, just give us a Mimikyu hat so we can have scribbles all over our face.

 

[SKX31]

Okay, but, like, none of that matters though. Nobody uses Spirits outside of WoL and they never did. They're just a cool thing that's easy for Nintendo do make that lets them represent things in Smash that they normally wouldn't. They are literally just the evolved form of Trophies. And any character important enough to make any kind of appearance in Smash deserves to have one. ALONGSIDE their other, more important inclusion. No instead of.

Optional for the players to engage with, yes. They always were. They shouldn't be optional for Nintendo to include alongside other content.

That's worth to remember yes. However, Nintendo placed a lot of importance on Spirits pre-release. 10 minutes of the Ultimate November Direct and a significant portion of the pre-release trailer. I admire the intent too - the evolved (and repackaged out of neccessity) Trophies as you said. The intent was never to portray the Spirits mode as broken, which, yeah, that ideal went out really quick. Youtuber DyllonStej showed off One Punch Mac literally 3 days after release and Alpharad spread the message 10 days later.

Yes, they're just a cool thing - point is, the Spirit system probably was so broken that it discouraged Nintendo. They gave up on any semblance of challenge with it. I'm not arguing against the "deserving Spirit" point, I'm saying that had it been just a little better balanced I could see them putting more effort into Spirits. Like including a Sans or Goemon Spirit. They're still being imaginative with their Spirits - for example, the Jiggy one - but the challenge with them is somewhat gone. And sure, you have the Tockles Spirit that comes with a DQ XI S copy - but that didn't make as much waves as the Sans costume.

Hindsight being 20 / 20, I do wish that Spirits mattered a bit more outside of themselves. The main way to do this would be to, IMO, sacrifice Spirits to speed up the "unlocking fighters for multiplayer" process. I mean, unlocking fighters (without the now-patched out trick) is a chore with 60+ unlockables, and there's already a way to sacrifice Spirits for more powerful Spirits. So why not?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yes, they're just a cool thing - point is, the Spirit system probably was so broken that it discouraged Nintendo. They gave up on any semblance of challenge with it. I'm not arguing against the "deserving Spirit" point, I'm saying that had it been just a little better balanced I could see them putting more effort into Spirits. Like including a Sans or Goemon Spirit. They're still being imaginative with their Spirits - for example, the Jiggy one - but the challenge with them is somewhat gone.

Well, the "challenge" is likely gone because at this point, you've probably completed WoL and have a counter spirit for every horrible thing that any new Spirit tries to throw at you.

Like, Phantom Thieves or Hero's Party battles would be nightmarish for most people without Fast Autoheal or Heal on KO type Spirits.

But that's literally the way the system is INTENDED to work. You're supposed to USE Spirits to counter Spirits. And now that you already have pretty much every type of ability, a new Spirit isn't going to throw anything at you you can't handle.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

This thread seems to vary wildly between "Spirits dis-confirm" and "Spirits don't dis-confirm".

I guess it depends on who's awake

 

[Calamitas]

This thread seems to vary wildly between "Spirits dis-confirm" and "Spirits don't dis-confirm".

I guess it depends on who's awake

Don't forget it being split evenly between "all future DLC is absolutely, beyond any doubt going to be third party, preferably with such choices as to cover as many video games genres and appeal to as many people as possible" and "hey, y'know, maybe we're also gonna get some first-party characters".

 

[DarthEnderX]

Character X is in Smash Bros.
Character Y is not in Smash Bros.
Character X got in Smash Bros. over Character Y

Can you all see where the problem lies in this argument?

Granted. But there's also the argument that:
Character X is in Smash.
Character Y is not in Smash.
Character X got in Smash Bros. over Character * (where Character * could literally be ANY character that not in Smash)
Character Y COULD have been Character *!

Any character that get's in the game is another character that didn't. Because that development time, money and effort would have been used on SOME other character, regardless.

And there's always people who will think "And that other character COULD have been MY character!" And they're technically right. It could have been. It probably wouldn't have been. But it still COULD have.

This thread seems to vary wildly between "Spirits dis-confirm" and "Spirits don't dis-confirm".

I guess it depends on who's awake

That's not even the argument that's being had atm. We're talking about whether when a new character shows up in Smash as a Mii costume or something, if they should also have a Spirit added at the same time.

 

[I_DON'T_KNOW_YOU!]

Okay, so here is an aggregate list of the top 20 video game publishers from the last decade. Based it off Metacritic's publisher scorecard so some of it is a bit fuzzy, like Aksys can sort of double for ArcSystemWorks despite the companies not being related at all:

In Smash (Playable)
Bandai Namco
Capcom
Konami
Microsoft
Nintendo
Sega
Square Enix

In Smash (Non-Playable)
Koei Tecmo
Ubisoft
Yacht Club Games
Toby Fox
WayForward
The Tetris Company

Not In Smash
Disney
Activision Blizzard
Aksys Games
Bethesda/Zenimax/id Software
EA
NIS America
Paradox
Sony
Take Two/2k
THQ Nordic
Warner Bros.
Grasshopper Manufacture/XSEED Games/Marvelous USA

Who would people like to see from these companies?

Fixed.

 

[Nquoid]

Fixed.

Fixed my list of 20 companies by making it not a list of 20 companies?

 

[NoOtherPersona]

Fixed my list of 20 companies by making it not a list of 20 companies?

The ULTIMATE fix no more companies get in sakurai makes his own characters now

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

It's not like spirits deconfirm in the literal sense, but it's more like I feel Sakurai is gonna go in a direction to expand the number of game worlds included in smash. In a sense spirits and assist trophies and mii costumes include these game worlds in some form already and if Sakurai wanted to add to that growing list of games in smash he would choose games not yet represented in Smash in any form.

 

[Wunderwaft]

The ULTIMATE fix no more companies get in sakurai makes his own characters now

A newly created playable OC is probably the only thing that I'm sure will piss off EVERYONE in the Smash fandom.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think the first post pass chracter reveal will be the most telling of the direction going forward.

Like how Joker set the tone for the Fighter's pass.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The ULTIMATE fix no more companies get in sakurai makes his own characters now

Ugh...Subspace Emissary doesn't inspire my confidence in that at all...

 

[Nquoid]

Ugh...Subspace Emissary doesn't inspire my confidence in that at all...

Are you referring to Kirby: Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Subspace Emissary?

 

[SKX31]

A newly created OC playable character is probably the only thing that I'm sure will piss off EVERYONE in the Smash fandom.

I could see the fanfic writers running with it... *Runs for cover.*

Are you referring to Kirby: Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Subspace Emissary?

Kirby: The Great Cave Smash Bros. Ultimate Brawl Subspace World of Emissaries Classic Adventure Mode DX.

And Knuckles. Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry Series.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Are you referring to Kirby: Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Subspace Emissary?

I'm referring to how none of Sakurai's Smash OC's has been very good or interesting. Galleom, Duom, Tabbuu, Master Core, Galeem, Dharkon...it's all very meh.

I still like the Hands though...

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Granted. But there's also the argument that:
Character X is in Smash.
Character Y is not in Smash.
Character X got in Smash Bros. over Character * (where Character * could literally be ANY character that not in Smash)
Character Y COULD have been Character *!

Any character that get's in the game is another character that didn't. Because that development time, money and effort would have been used on SOME other character, regardless.

The counter-instance is appreciated, but the argument is hypothetical. The argument I presented is based on known information and shows a faulty jump in logic. While this shows the leap in logic most fans take in better detail, it is still as faulty as the argument I presented.

Hypotheticals are great and all that, but they're inherently flawed and don't suffice for real evidence or conclusions. For example, the development time, money, and effort might not have gone to any character at all. It might've been moved to another project or saved for DLC or something like that. We don't know, so we shouldn't jump to any conclusions.

 

[osby]

Granted. But there's also the argument that:
Character X is in Smash.
Character Y is not in Smash.
Character X got in Smash Bros. over Character * (where Character * could literally be ANY character that not in Smash)
Character Y COULD have been Character *!

Any character that get's in the game is another character that didn't. Because that development time, money and effort would have been used on SOME other character, regardless.

And there's always people who will think "And that other character COULD have been MY character!" And they're technically right. It could have been. It probably wouldn't have been. But it still COULD have.

That means same argument can be made for every character, therefore it's a neutral statement that doesn't really mean anything.

I'm referring to how none of Sakurai's Smash OC's has been very good or interesting. Galleom, Duom, Tabbuu, Master Core, Galeem, Dharkon...it's all very meh.

I still like the Hands though...

That's a good thing. You wouldn't want original characters to overshadow others in a crossover.

 

[DarthEnderX]

For example, the development time, money, and effort might not have gone to any character at all. It might've been moved to another project or saved for DLC or something like that.

I guess that depends on whether Sakurai tells Nintendo how many characters he wants to add, and then they give him a budget for that. Or if Nintendo gives him a budget, and then he figures out how many characters he can make with that.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I'm not, I'm merely saying that not every character needs to have a coherent reason to make it in the roster. In this case whether or not they 'deserve' or need a spot on the roster.

I agree with the argument, but not the conclusion.

Each character has a reason for being included on a higher level. It's not like Sakurai and Nintendo just throw darts on a board and add whoever they hit. There are real purposes for including characters, such as promoting other properties, strengthening ties with partner companies, catering to certain demographics, etc.

However, I do agree reasons like "deserving" or "needing" are arbitrary fan rules that we should look past when speculating.

 

[Nquoid]

I'm referring to how none of Sakurai's Smash OC's has been very good or interesting. Galleom, Duom, Tabbuu, Master Core, Galeem, Dharkon...it's all very meh.

I still like the Hands though...

Oh I agree, I was just taking the jab at Subspace being a glorified Kirby game in design. Which also bled over to the enemy designs.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm referring to how none of Sakurai's Smash OC's has been very good or interesting. Galleom, Duom, Tabbuu, Master Core, Galeem, Dharkon...it's all very meh.

I still like the Hands though...

The Ancient Minister was a pretty great character (Though I suppose you could say it doesn't count since it's just R.O.B. in disguise...now that I think of it it was a really clever way to have R.O.B. the character not be confused with R.O.B. the generic enemy). Galleom gave Lucas a really great moment, but it's design was pretty eh. Duon was an interesting concept but a pretty poor excecution. Master Core was really just set dressing, but the Master Giant, Beast, Edges, and Shadow were pretty cool though. Master Fortress was gated too heavily in my opinion. Galeem and Dharkon aren't the best designs and could have used some more story and voice acting, but the music really helped make their battles feel epic. Tabuu has one of the best fights in the series, but should have had a larger presence throughout the story since twist villians are incredibly difficult to pull off in a story without dialogue. I don't think Smash is incapable with coming up with a cool new character, but there's so much good material to pull from that it's going to be really hard to top it.

Oh I agree, I was just taking the jab at Subspace being a glorified Kirby game in design. Which also bled over to the enemy designs.

Oh my goodness I just realized Galeem and Dharchon follow Kirby Final Boss design 101: Make it a sentient eyeball...

 

[ze9]

Tabuu was kinda lame, but damn if that boss battle isn't epic. Galeem and Dharkon aren't bad at all, either. Too bad they got the less involved story, seeing the fighters taking side with or against both could have been fun. Oh well.

In my humble opinion, it's absolutely unfathomable how somebody could dislike Piranha Plant.

 

[He-Was-Number-Wan]

Granted. But there's also the argument that:
Character X is in Smash.
Character Y is not in Smash.
Character X got in Smash Bros. over Character * (where Character * could literally be ANY character that not in Smash)
Character Y COULD have been Character *!

Any character that get's in the game is another character that didn't. Because that development time, money and effort would have been used on SOME other character, regardless.

You mean to tell me the first four fighters weren't a personal attack on my Doomslayer-desparate heart? The audacity.

Side tangent: Does anyone believe that similarity to existing fighters has any bearing on a newcomers validity? They poked fun at Banjo & Kazooie and Duck Hunt being analogous, but jokes aside, do we think they ever consider things like that? Since I always have to bring it back to Doom Slayer would Master Chief be a soft disconfirm for Doom Slayer or vice-versa?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Side tangent: Does anyone believe that similarity to existing fighters has any bearing on a newcomers validity? They poked fun at Banjo & Kazooie and Duck Hunt being analogous, but jokes aside, do we think they ever consider things like that? Since I always have to bring it back to Doom Slayer would Master Chief be a soft disconfirm for Doom Slayer or vice-versa?

Officially? No. Speculatively? Yes in the eyes of many.

accidentally double-posted and I'm too dumb to figure out how to delete this one

I think a mod has to do it.

 

[osby]

accidentally double-posted and I'm too dumb to figure out how to delete this one

Report your own post with "double post" and hope a mod notices it.

 

[Curious Villager]

That's a good thing. You wouldn't want original characters to overshadow others in a crossover.

Do the Kirby characters count as Sakurai OC's?
If yes then they kinda had some of the larger roles in SSE....

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Galeem and Dharkon aren't bad at all, either. Too bad they got the less involved story, seeing the fighters taking side with or against both could have been fun. Oh well.

It would have required a plot restructuring (Galleem "killing" them all would have made an enemy of all of these characters) but it would be a really cool exploration of all of these characters. Unless of course they just threw the villians on Dharkon's side and the heroes on Galleem's side until all of the characters are eventually double crossed. Still cool, just really cliche.

 

[Aetheri]

I agree with the argument, but not the conclusion.

Each character has a reason for being included on a higher level. It's not like Sakurai and Nintendo just throw darts on a board and add whoever they hit. There are real purposes for including characters, such as promoting other properties, strengthening ties with partner companies, catering to certain demographics, etc.

However, I do agree reasons like "deserving" or "needing" are arbitrary fan rules that we should look past when speculating.

Exactly what I'm saying not 'every' character needs/deserves to be in smash. There are various reasons as to why characters are added, some hold greater importance than others thus are more deserving but that's not the case for every character.

 

[osby]

Do the Kirby characters count as Sakurai OC's?

I mean, every fictional character is someone's OC, but in Smash context, Kirby characters come from another series just like everyone else.

Also, I was talking from a design perspective.

 

[Curious Villager]

I mean, every fictional character is someone's OC, but in Smash context, Kirby characters come from another series just like everyone else.

Also, I was talking from a design perspective.

Alright then, fair enough.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So anyone hear this yet?

So apparently there are some rumors floating around that Terry is going to drop on November 25th since that date will mark the 28th anniversary of Fatal Fury: King of Fighters. It's a Monday, so I'm not too sure whether Nintendo is going to go out of their way to make the date, but I have to admit that that time frame does seem reasonable. What do you guys think? Still, I would expect fighter #5 to be announced on or before Terry's release and November feels maybe a little bit too early.

Seems reasonable, but at the same time when does Doom Eternal drop? Early November? If it’s before that date, FP5 probably won’t be Doom Slayer...

Tabuu was kinda lame, but damn if that boss battle isn't epic. Galeem and Dharkon aren't bad at all, either. Too bad they got the less involved story, seeing the fighters taking side with or against both could have been fun. Oh well.

In my humble opinion, it's absolutely unfathomable how somebody could dislike Piranha Plant.

To be fair, I always construed Galeem and Dharkon as holding their subjects prisoner, no one would willingly side with them. Ultimately the Smashers defy them both cause otherwise it’s the end of the universe if either wins. It’s kinda like Dissidia in concept but different in principle.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I don't have too many ideas about who the last character of the Pass will be, but my money would still be on Capcom.

When it comes to which character could open the next "season", I can definitely see this being Sora's time. Big worldwide requests, notoriety, relevance (ugh), it's all there. Out of all the characters normally talked about in speculation. he's the one I can see being the next Joker, in terms of being the fighter to draw people into the new content and setting the tone for the rest of the DLC season.

Of course, it could be another curveball that no one has predicted so far, but as far as the most talked about characters go, he's the one with the best chances imo.

 

[BlueMonk]

So anyone hear this yet?
Seems reasonable, but at the same time when does Doom Eternal drop? Early November? If it’s before that date, FP5 probably won’t be Doom Slayer...

It's not entirely unreasonable, but they've never gone out of their way to release characters on anniversaries before, so I wouldn't count on it

 

[Calamitas]

So anyone hear this yet?

Seems reasonable, but at the same time when does Doom Eternal drop? Early November? If it’s before that date, FP5 probably won’t be Doom Slayer...

Just googled it, Doom Eternal releases on the 22nd of November. It's decently close, but I still don't think that Mr Shooty MacViolentGunface is gonna be FP5.

I don't have too many ideas about who the last character of the Pass will be, but my money would still be on Capcom.

Wouldn't they have withheld the Zero and Proto Man costumes until then, though? I know that Mii costumes don't really prove anything, but it at the very least would make a bit more sense to me if the Capcom costumes came with a Capcom character.