Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Pokelego999

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Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
I wonder how much of this is exacerbated by the fact that Ultimate had a shorter dev cycle than previous Smash's. Because only Splatoon had time to prove that it had legs, the rest of the additions were focused on fulfilling long held wants and adding characters from ever green franchises like Fire Emblem, Pokemon and Animal Crossing.

If the game cooked for another year, I'm sure a lot more 1st party requests would have been fulfilled and maybe stuff like Spring Man and Rex.

But I have to imagine Nintendo saw the metrics for the Smash 4 DLC and noted that Cloud, Bayonetta and Ryu sold better than Corrin. Hence the hard pivot into new franchises. If Splatoon hadn't made it into the base game, I'd wager that's the kind of franchise that would make financial sense to add to a pass. As much as I love Dixie and Porky, they're the fourth and third reps for franchises, immediately making them less "exciting"
It always annoys me when that happens
 
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BZZZZT-
That's a lie and I don't know who the hell keep spreading this. Game Data show that Cloud was added VERY early in Ultimate Development, and with how Sakurai said, and repeated today, that he worked on Smash 4/4DLC and Ultimate back to back, and how the Smash 4 DLC was choosen the exact same time as Ultimate Project Plan, I'm 100% sure Cloud's negociation in Smash 4 also went for Ultimate too.
Hmm, interesting. I think your post might be the first I hear of early game data for Cloud. See - this is the kind of thing that ends up buried in mountains of salt during speculation.

Where can I find that? The game data part, I mean.
 
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Renjamin

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er from Square? I'm particularly hopeful for Geno, Sora or 2B, but I'm really not that confident, if only because they seem harder to work with (not necessarily stingy, they just have more... legal stuff on the way, I guess).
I don't get the hype for Geno when the CLEAR Mario RPG rep is the Tub-o-troopa

I REALLY don't get why people are so confident in an AT promotion as DLC. I get Spirit even though I still think they're off limits, but it just seems like setting yourself up for inevitable disappointment
I think Waluigi fans see this as their time as his support has been loudest since the lead up to Ultimate and obviously that'd be too late to add him into the base game, the original fighter pass were picks by Nintendo and seeming to be all third party, they probably see this as the first actual chance for him.
Is it likely? Probably not (after all how long did it take for Banjo,Ridley and K.rool) but if Waluigi fans are one thing it's persistent. As for the other Assist Trophies? Fans of them must have just seen Waluigi fans say it so much that it seemed like a more and more sure thing (Like Doomguy or Chorus Kids being playable) and they hopped on the bandwagon.
 

Nekoo

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Hmm, interesting. I think your post might be the first I hear of early game data for Cloud. See - this is the kind of thing that ends up buried in mountains of salt during speculation.

Where can I find that? The game data part, I mean.
Pfeeew, Well, I would glady go and try to find this myself when I get time to navigate through the datamine when I get time or get on PC, but basically Cloud is early in the list of characters, same goes for his stages and stuff.
And I did find the sources from Cloud being "cut" or "almost cut" from Ultimate, it's from a certain Stealth__ who did heard about Simon Belmont in Ultimate, but beside that, I never saw anyone saying that Cloud would be cut, and I still don't understand this beside the narative that "SE is stingy" when we just learned that they were the one giving More Heroes to Sakurai to play with.
 
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So with the recent statements would it be fair to say the DLC after the Fighters Pass will have the same trend as the ones in it? Cause if so then yay more collaborations..

I think it's safe to say the Post-FP DLC will follow the same trend. All of the characters are collaborations with new companies/franchises and no characters from 1st party franchises nor most of the already represented 3rd party franchises.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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So with the recent statements would it be fair to say the DLC after the Fighters Pass will have the same trend as the ones in it? Cause if so then yay more collaborations..

I think it's safe to say the Post-FP DLC will follow the same trend. All of the characters are collaborations with new companies/franchises and no characters from 1st party franchises nor most of the already represented 3rd party franchises.
No. Where are you getting all that?
 
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Flik

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*Sword whip quickly swings onto screen*

FE fans: OMG YES BYLETH IS IN SMASH!

Soul Calibur fans: OMG YES IVY IS IN SMASH!

"Miriam joins the fight!"

FE and Soul Calibur fans: .....Wait what?
Me as a fan of both FE and Soul Calibur: I ain't even mad

I've had this in my mind for some time, but... what would be the possibility of Zack as an Echo? I don't know much about him, admittedly, but he also used the Buster Sword, right?
Yes, completely forgot about Zack lol He'd be like Vincent as the "through sheer popularity" pick. Funny thing is that he would likely be Cloud's echo fighter when it's Cloud who's "echoing" him in FFVII (the Buster Sword even used to belong to Zack).

Now that I thinking about, if a character from an already represented 3rd party series gets in Smash, who could do so through sheer popularity in spite of not being one of the main character within his/her own series?

Zack (someone who is important to Cloud's backstory but not really in the bigger picture; he appears in just one flashback on the original game) and Vincent (who was an optional character) are the two FFVII characters I can see joining Smash Bros ahead of Tifa and Aerith (the two main girls) or Sephiroth (the main antagonist) because they are THAT popular.
 
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No. Where are you getting all that?
By these tweets mainly:
https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1171720134198624256?s=20
https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1171779905245216769?s=20
Personally these tweets just seem to be the hardest evidence we can rely on right now as Sakurai and the NoJ President have stated these. It seems NoJ is a large factor in determining the DLC nowadays after all and Sakurai is Sakurai so no need to elaborate.
 
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I mean, they're only "finding less worth in their own characters" in the Smash context because so many of them are already in and people are supporting first parties less and less in favor of third parties. They're kind of just responding to the market of Smash fans to a certain degree and also because their IPs are inherently less valuable the more niche and obscure you go. Nintendo has always done this as a company. Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon are the titans that get all the attention and always will, and the lesser series that don't perform well don't get as many projects greenlit. And the ones that don't perform at all well get shelved. It's amazing just how much of Nintendo is already covered in Smash. As far as IPs are concerned, you really only have Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, Advance Wars, Sin and Punishment, and Chibi-Robo left with a handful of one-offs not in the game. They don't exactly scream priority to Nintendo to begin with and only one of those franchises has a strong push from a fan perspective for Smash with Isaac having a number of supporters. I promise you that Nintendo will see value in their own characters if people actually prove there's a strong enough base for them, but on average there just aren't the same unifying presences in first party speculation like King K. Rool and Ridley, and that does matter to Nintendo.

I don't see why you have to fall out of love with the Smash just because it focuses on other games. Explore those world, those games, and those companies. We live in a beautiful time of having far too many gaming IPs to possibly consume, so there's just so many possibilities beyond Nintendo (many of which actually fit Nintendo's approach to games as well) to experience and fall in love with. Everything you loved is still there and the best it has ever been (including 60+ Nintendo characters). Like yes, the third party focus is likely to continue, but that doesn't mean you won't see other Nintendo characters show up in some capacity. It's unlikely to all be third party and you can have an option like Geno that is just a third party Mario character, or someone like Ryu Hayabusa who is also just a NES character for all intensive purposes.
Thing is, I do have experience with all of the third parties in Smash. I'm a long-time fan of Dragon Quest, love the Banjo games, used to play KoF and Persona 5 is one of my favorite RPGs. There's honestly very few third party franchises that could get in that I'm not a fan of. Crash, Kingdom Hearts, Doom, Resident Evil, Ace Attorney, Devil May Cry, Professor Layton, Ninja Gaiden, Assassin's Creed, and those are just the ones that come to mind.

It's not that I'm not getting characters I love, it's that the focus seems to be shifting drastically towards one side over the other when I feel like both could thrive together. So there's that bittersweet feeling I guess.
 

cothero

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I guess my problem is that it feels like Nintendo finds less and less worth in their own characters. And as someone who became a fan of Smash because of all the Nintendo, it's alienating. I'm wondering how far it'll go before I fall out of love with one of my favorite series, and that's just kinda sad.
As i said before, Sakurai is probably done with first party characters (for now). The one's he saw potential are already playable in the base game. Bandana Waddle Dee is a good exemple: a highly requested character, created by Sakurai itself and was playable in the last Kirby games. Wasn't added in the base game, anyway. Waluigi is another highly requested (maybe the most requested Nintendo rep at this point) in the Smash Ballot, but returned as an AT, infuriating his fans. The message is pretty clear to me. He puts whoever he wants in the game, even if the character is ultra requested by the community. Ridley also proves that, and ultimately got added because he had potential AND was a heavily requested character.
 
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Garteam

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Exactly. Iconic 3P characters are just plain more exciting than Nintendo's D-listers.
Exciting? In terms of hype, sure (as a generality, there are some first party exceptions to this rule who would probably get a more positive reception than most third parties). However, I don't think being a first party means that they're less exciting in terms of move-set potential and vice versa. I'd rather see a character who's a little more lowkey but has much more in the way of moveset potential instead of a character with a big name who doesn't bring much new in terms of gameplay.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Exciting? In terms of hype, sure (as a generality, there are some first party exceptions to this rule who would probably get a more positive reception than most third parties). However, I don't think being a first party means that they're less exciting in terms of move-set potential and vice versa. I'd rather see a character who's a little more lowkey but has much more in the way of moveset potential instead of a character with a big name who doesn't bring much new in terms of gameplay.
Ok but let's be real, 'moveset potential' is a goddamn buzzword at this point. We have a plant, a ****ing potted plant, with more unique moves than the third party character belonging to Nintendo's competitor, it doesn't matter at this point
 

Hidan

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I know I’m pretty late to the discussion, but here would be my ideal DLC wave 2 and fighter 5 (which may seem contradictory to my sig, which is a complete wishlist versus likelyhood).

Fighter 5: Jill Valentine

FP2 (in no particular order)
1. Sora
2. Tracer
3. Steve
4. Doomguy
5. Amaterasu

Okay maybe Amaterasu is more of a wish list type than likely. I still think Tracer (or an Overwatch rep in general) is more likely than either Crash or Spyro (despite being a huge fan of the latter), but I would honestly love any of them. I might put together a list for a “season 3” but I’d have to put more thought into it.
 

ZelDan

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I think it's important to note that just because third parties may generally be more exciting, that doesn't mean first parties wouldn't be exciting at all. I think it's also important to looks at things on a character vs. character basis. While the most hype third parties would likely bring more excitement than the most hype first parties, once we move down from that there would probably be some first parties that would cause more waves than certain third parties. I'm sure Waluigi would cause more excitement and get more attention compared to a decent amount of third party characters.
 
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Ok but let's be real, 'moveset potential' is a goddamn buzzword at this point. We have a plant, a ****ing potted plant, with more unique moves than the third party character belonging to Nintendo's competitor, it doesn't matter at this point
"More unique"... in what way? Comparing characters from different franchises doesn't seem like a good way to determine that, nor the quality of the characters.

I remember when people were mad about Joker "taking" stuff from Sheik and Robin, as well as Hero "taking" normals from Link and Roy. "Fun" times.

That said... I do agree with "moveset potential" being mostly useless right now. While it certainly doesn't hinder anyone, it's not absolutely necessary, as proven by things like :ulticeclimbers::ultduckhunt::ultgnw::ultrob::ultwiifittrainer:.

Ultimately, whether you see moveset potential in a character depends almost exclusively in how we see them personally, nothing else.

And I swear I'm totally not saying this because I support Arle Nadja and Phoenix Wright, no.

Yes, completely forgot about Zack lol He'd be like Vincent as the "through sheer popularity" pick. Funny thing is that he would likely be Cloud's echo fighter when it's Cloud who's "echoing" him in FFVII (the Buster Sword even used to belong to Zack).

Now that I thinking about, if a character from an already represented 3rd party series gets in Smash, who could do so through sheer popularity in spite of not being one of the main character within his/her own series?

Zack (someone who is important to Cloud's backstory but not really in the bigger picture; he appears in just one flashback on the original game) and Vincent (who was an optional character) are the two FFVII characters I can see joining Smash Bros ahead of Tifa and Aerith (the two main girls) or Sephiroth (the main antagonist) because they are THAT popular.
Hm. Maybe it could be an opportunity for us to get more FF content? It would be lovely if it happened. I really don't see us getting another unique FF character, but hey, if it happens, I won't be the one to complain.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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"More unique"... in what way? Comparing characters from different franchises doesn't seem like a good way to determine that, nor the quality of the characters.

I remember when people were mad about Joker "taking" stuff from Sheik and Robin, as well as Hero taking normals from Link and Roy. "Fun" times.

That said... I do agree with "moveset potential" being mostly useless right now. While it certainly doesn't hinder anyone, it's not absolutely necessary, as proven by things like :ulticeclimbers::ultduckhunt::ultgnw::ultrob::ultwiifittrainer:.

Ultimately, whether you see moveset potential in a character depends almost exclusively in how we see them personally, nothing else.

And I swear I'm totally not saying this because I support Arle Nadja and Phoenix Wright, no.



Hm. Maybe it could be an opportunity for us to get more FF content? It would be lovely if it happened. I really don't see us getting another unique FF character, but hey, if it happens, I won't be the one to complain.
Moves that aren't "Oh it's Sonic's up air" or "Oh that's just Ridley's down smash" or even "oh that's Mario's fair". Meanwhile the plant has less examples of "Oh it's that attack". Not even dissing banjo but the fact that this is indeed reality means that moveset potential does not matter anymore, assuming it has mattered in the last decade
 
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I guess my problem is that it feels like Nintendo finds less and less worth in their own characters. And as someone who became a fan of Smash because of all the Nintendo, it's alienating. I'm wondering how far it'll go before I fall out of love with one of my favorite series, and that's just kinda sad.
I feel similarly. Nintendo nowadays focuses so much on Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and Fire Emblem, but most other IPs of theirs don't get nearly as much attention. Sure, they don't sell 10 million copies an entry like most of those do, but if you look at the numbers throughout the decades, most Nintendo IPs have always done modestly. I already felt like Smash was moving away from what I find appealing about Nintendo when they started to include more and more third party characters, but now that Sakurai has confirmed he's pretty much just doing third party DLC from now on, I don't think I'm going to bother getting invested in Smash, unless something really shocking happens with the new reps.

It's kind of ironic since Nintendo has relied on its first party offerings to be the big appeal for buying their systems for so long, but now it seems it's slim pickings if you want something other than their top brands, and Smash has even moved on to focus on non-Nintendo stuff. I guess it makes a lot of folks happy, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels it's really saddening.
 

ROBnWatch

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Mother is the best Nintendo RPG series.
Huzzah! A man of quality.

Though Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade all have their merits as well.

I feel similarly. Nintendo nowadays focuses so much on Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and Fire Emblem, but most other IPs of theirs don't get nearly as much attention. Sure, they don't sell 10 million copies an entry like most of those do, but if you look at the numbers throughout the decades, most Nintendo IPs have always done modestly. I already felt like Smash was moving away from what I find appealing about Nintendo when they started to include more and more third party characters, but now that Sakurai has confirmed he's pretty much just doing third party DLC from now on, I don't think I'm going to bother getting invested in Smash, unless something really shocking happens with the new reps.

It's kind of ironic since Nintendo has relied on its first party offerings to be the big appeal for buying their systems for so long, but now it seems it's slim pickings if you want something other than their top brands, and Smash has even moved on to focus on non-Nintendo stuff. I guess it makes a lot of folks happy, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels it's really saddening.
No sir you are not the only one saddened/underwhelmed with the news. Heck if I didn’t need a complete roster, I probably would’ve only bought Banjo thus far in the pass, with Joker a somewhat distant second, followed by Hero and Terry in a tie for third. It wouldn’t be nearly as disappointing if I knew who those latter 3 characters were, but alas, I did not before Smash unveiled them. Hopefully they throw in 1-3 first parties to make it a bit more bearable, but if not then hopefully the remainder of third party characters are at least people I can point out the names of.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Thing is, I do have experience with all of the third parties in Smash. I'm a long-time fan of Dragon Quest, love the Banjo games, used to play KoF and Persona 5 is one of my favorite RPGs. There's honestly very few third party franchises that could get in that I'm not a fan of. Crash, Kingdom Hearts, Doom, Resident Evil, Ace Attorney, Devil May Cry, Professor Layton, Ninja Gaiden, Assassin's Creed, and those are just the ones that come to mind.

It's not that I'm not getting characters I love, it's that the focus seems to be shifting drastically towards one side over the other when I feel like both could thrive together. So there's that bittersweet feeling I guess.
But third party characters don't even take up 20% of the roster yet, and just to get to a 75/25 split first parties to third parties, the next 8 characters would all have to be third parties. Smash has been a series that has included first parties for 20 years, so there's clearly tons and tons of love already put into the roster from a first party perspective. You're basically look at a minority part of the game and complaining that it isn't more of a minority. As it stands, Ultimate still hs more first party additions than third parties as well. It has added 9 first party characters compared to the 8 third party characters (and if you count returning fighters that were previously cut, and I think you should, that changes to 15 first party to 9 third party). And one of the third party characters added is just objectively a Nintendo character whose license belongs to another company now, so that puts one further on the Nintendo side in the grand scheme of things.

They do both thrive together and will continue to thrive together regardless of the next ten additions. And honestly, with characters like Mega Man and Simon Belmont that are NES icons and known so heavily for the NES, it still seems so heavily favoring Nintendo as a whole. I just don't really understand this mindset when they are still such a comparatively small portion of the roster and this is literally the only chance to do this in gaming history by all accounts. It just seems absolutely insane to me to not take this once in a lifetime opportunity to make this huge gaming crossover that will likely never be topped, just to pull back at the last second to go towards IPs that are all represented in Smash in some capacity, and many of which have lots of substantial content already, including multiple playable characters...

I feel similarly. Nintendo nowadays focuses so much on Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and Fire Emblem, but most other IPs of theirs don't get nearly as much attention. Sure, they don't sell 10 million copies an entry like most of those do, but if you look at the numbers throughout the decades, most Nintendo IPs have always done modestly. I already felt like Smash was moving away from what I find appealing about Nintendo when they started to include more and more third party characters, but now that Sakurai has confirmed he's pretty much just doing third party DLC from now on, I don't think I'm going to bother getting invested in Smash, unless something really shocking happens with the new reps.

It's kind of ironic since Nintendo has relied on its first party offerings to be the big appeal for buying their systems for so long, but now it seems it's slim pickings if you want something other than their top brands, and Smash has even moved on to focus on non-Nintendo stuff. I guess it makes a lot of folks happy, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels it's really saddening.
I mean, Nintendo has realized that only relying on their own first party offerings is not a sustainable business model in the long run and doesn't let them achieve the success they desire. Third parties are essential to any console no matter how much some Nintendo faithful has convinced themselves otherwise. The N64, the Gamecube, and the Wii U all suffered massively from the lack of support, and the only reason the Wii bucked the trend was because it sold as a toy and not a gaming console. Part of the Switch's return to glory for Nintendo has also been in part because of third party IPs. You can't go at it alone in the gaming world, and you achieve the greatest success when you have solid first AND third party offerings on a well marketed console. A lot of the abandoned IPs did modestly at first... but then dropped off more and more until they were unsustainable too. Nintendo is always looking to innovate, and if F-Zero can't break half a million copies and isn't doing anything new or interesting, it's just not going to be of much interest to Nintendo. I'm sorry, Nintendo relying on just their own support has been a ****ing massive issue for two decades now, it's time they stopped acting like that.

Smash has been in this transition alongside Nintendo ever since the Melee days, and it has been a hard fought lesson with lots of mistakes along the way.
 
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Moves that aren't "Oh it's Sonic's up air" or "Oh that's just Ridley's down smash" or even "oh that's Mario's fair". Meanwhile the plant has less examples of "Oh it's that attack". Not even dissing banjo but the fact that this is indeed reality means that moveset potential does not matter anymore, assuming it has mattered in the last decade
Hard disagree on Plant having less. There are quite a few videos on each DLC characters explaining the moves they take from others. My response to this, in general, is the one I saw a Joker fan give back then:

"Yeah, cause Samus invented corkscrew kicks, really."

Besides, it's just like... 3 or 4 "copied" moves per DLC fighter. And it's nothing new either, see Cloud and Bayo in Smash 4.

And now, allow me to shamelessly use this to bring in the topic... I really think Echo Fighters are a possibility. No telling if first or third party, but if all 10 of those extra DLC slots are filled, I think there is a chance they may not all be original characters. Plus, with no new modes in sight for now, it would be an interesting allocation of development time.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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By these tweets mainly:
https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1171720134198624256?s=20
https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1171779905245216769?s=20
Personally these tweets just seem to be the hardest evidence we can rely on right now as Sakurai and the NoJ President have stated these. It seems NoJ is a large factor in determining the DLC nowadays after all and Sakurai is Sakurai so no need to elaborate.
The excerpts from Sakurai don't imply first or third parties. The resetera post quotes the guy from December of 2018, and it even says that they want to expose Nintendo franchises to different consumers.
 
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I guess my problem is that it feels like Nintendo finds less and less worth in their own characters. And as someone who became a fan of Smash because of all the Nintendo, it's alienating. I'm wondering how far it'll go before I fall out of love with one of my favorite series, and that's just kinda sad.
I agree with this the first speculation cycle I really took place in is this one currently the Ultimate DLC cycle and I'm a hardcore Nintendo fan first and foremost so it's super alienating seeing all these characters I don't know get in over characters I'm familiar with. Nintendo's appeal for me has always been their wide cast of franchises and characters exclusive to them and their platforms.

They're ignoring a lot of good characters and franchises that they own that could potentially make for some interesting additions in favor of 3rd party characters that are arguably bigger and more exciting than them yet at the cost of alienating their own fanbase like myself and others. It attracts a lot of other people and get people excited which is great we can get one of the biggest official crossover games of all time but why ignore 1st party characters at that cost?

I would've said that 1st party characters and 3rd party characters could live in harmony and give both groups what they want. It keeps the core Nintendo fanbase interested and excited while bringing in new people to witness the "Ultimate Crossover" we still have plenty of good 1st party franchises that could've been added too; Rhythm Heaven, Golden Sun, Wars, Chibi-Robo, Etc.

But otherwise I'm not opposed to see more 3rd party franchises get added at all I would (or would've if we get all 3rd party characters) just like for 1st party additions and 3rd party additions to get added and round each other out.
 
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Al-kīmiyā'

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Pirranha Plant can get a crazy moveset because Pirranha Plant doesn't matter. No one cares if it does a bunch of crazy **** it hasn't done in its source material. People care if their desired character gets a bunch of moves that don't make sense for them. If Sakurai considers those reactions and wants to avoid them (and if he values interesting movesets and having diversity among character movesets) greater moveset potential works in a character's favor (and lesser moveset potential works against a character).
 
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ze9

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My opinion on third parties (and all characters) is that they shouldn't feel out of place next to Mario. I don't care that much whether characters are first or third party. Most people here seem to disagree, and I think that's a big part of why there's so much third party demand. A lot of the big third party characters being discussed wouldn't have support if people cared that they, for example, Doomguy, is wildly out of place next to Mario.
If that was the case, we'd only have Sonic, Banjo, Megaman and Pacman. Certainly no Bayonetta.
 
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