Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Momotsuki]

Speaking of DLC, it is a bit interesting that Joker is the only fast DLC character. Terry is kind of fast, I am not sure. The rest are pretty slow overall.

Huh? I've played quite a bit of Steve, he moves in this game, I thought.

 

[Deleted member]

Huh? I've played quite a bit of Steve, he moves in this game, I thought.

I have been playing a lot of Steve too. In fact, I was playing him when I woke up today.

Yes, Steve moves a lot, but he isn't close to Joker.

Though some of Steve's tilts are pretty dang fast.

 

[Momotsuki]

I have been playing a lot of Steve too. In fact, I was playing him when I woke up today.

Yes, Steve moves a lot, but he isn't close to Joker.

Though some of Steve's tilts are pretty dang fast.

I suppose Joker has some strong mobility when we're just thinking of movement speed, but the range of Steve's mobility is really, really wild. It says a lot that he had to be saddled with some of the most glaring drawbacks of any fighter just to make that reasonable. I mean, it's hard to get over how well-designed he is, and how much development hell it must've been.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of Joker...
Arsene Back Air.
It's fast, very strong, and...

I suppose Joker has some strong mobility when we're just thinking of movement speed, but the range of Steve's mobility is really, really wild. It says a lot that he had to be saddled with some of the most glaring drawbacks of any fighter just to make that reasonable. I mean, it's hard to get over how well-designed he is, and how much development hell it must've been.

Interesting. I would like you to go into more depth about Steve's mobility. I'm far from perfect with Steve, even though I love him a lot.

 

[Momotsuki]

Speaking of Joker...
Arsene Back Air.
It's fast, very strong, and...

Interesting. I would like you to go into more depth about Steve's mobility. I'm far from perfect with Steve, even though I love him a lot.

I thought it spoke for itself. He can just go a lot of places most of the cast simply can't (within limits, there are the stage barriers of course) and from these places can take advantage of most of his grounded options. It's one thing that "off-stage down smash" is a thing, and something else entirely that it's exactly what it sounds like.

Having pathetic verticality without the aid of this superb, yet laggy block-placing, a lot of difficulty getting in - these can hold him back, but even still, it's hard to overlook his strengths. Ultimately we'd have to wait until the end of this pandemic to really know where he stands in that regard.

It's one thing to be good at going places. It's something else to be able to go places most simply can't.

 

[Deleted member]

I thought it spoke for itself. He can just go a lot of places most of the cast simply can't (within limits, there are the stage barriers of course) and from these places can take advantage of most of his grounded options. It's one thing that "off-stage down smash" is a thing, and something else entirely that it's exactly what is sounds like.

Having pathetic verticality without the aid of this superb, yet laggy block-placing, a lot of difficulty getting in - these can hold him back, but even still, it's hard to overlook his strengths. Ultimately we'd have to wait until the end of this pandemic to really know where he stands in that regard.

Oooh, I get what you mean.

I was just meaning overall speed and framedata. You know, overwhelming the opponent wit immense speed and moves. And Joker can do that very well.

 

[Kokiden]

So do you guys think Sephiroth will be releasing Thursday, the next day, next week, Christmas or end of December?

I'm hoping same day, or the day after, at most.

I'm betting on the same day.

They're already making us wait a week for the presentation after the reveal, and it would be nice to get him early before the holidays.

Speaking about Zelda, Ultimate is, by far, the best version of her in Smash. She looked soulless in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. Also, she finally isn't a severely unviable character in Ultimate. She has sauce.

You should make a song. You would be good at it.

She's much better in Ultimate than in the other games.

I do wish they kept her Twilight Princess look though. I'm not a fan of how childlike she looks in Ultimate. They could've kept that as an alternative look like how they did for Bayo and Cloud.

Also fun fact: December 18th (which is when Sephiroth would be released if they released if him late on the 17th over here) is Final Fantasy's birthday in Japan.

Another reason for me to believe he'll be dropped after the presentation.

Speaking of DLC, it is a bit interesting that Joker is the only fast DLC character. Terry is kind of fast, I am not sure how to rank him. The rest are pretty slow overall.

Edit: By "fast", I mean just fast overall. Speed, framedata, moves, etc..

Agreed. I don't think Sephiroth will have great frame data or speed in general but at least he's got range (and a shirtless alt lol)

 

[Momotsuki]

I don’t know. I only found the article that was translated to “Sephiroth is the last delivery of 2020”, now I assume that means that last released character of 2020 since I translated the tweet announcement for Steve and it also said “deliver” as the verb. I haven’t yet seen any hard disclaimers. Although, looking through the Japanese Nintendo Twitter, they didn’t tweet out any disclaimers at all. I’m not sure if the other regional Nintendo twitters had disclaimers from prior presentations, which I could check, but so far they make a point of tweeting out the disclaimer on the American Nintendo Twitter at any rate. Sephiroth lacks the disclaimer.

EDIT: The disclaimer is on the Steve/Alex Presentation on the Nintendo of Spain Twitter.

For what it's worth, if we got another reveal on Friday, I'm gonna go ****ing batty. With that in mind... do not give me the idea that it's a possibility. I really don't think it is.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I don't know, I'm guessing they're thinking they've said it enough times that they think people will get the hint that another character will not be shown off during another character's presentation.

 

[Kokiden]

You know, if the 18th (Japan and my time zone too) really is Final Fantasy's birthday, it would seem kind of rude to overshadow that with a new character reveal at the end.

That's just me though.

 

[Eldrake]

inventing time travel just to mess with gamefaqs

Me: You invented time travel, and you're using it to mess with Smash fans? But with tech like that, you could have stopped the coronavirus and prevented numerous deaths and layoffs!
WonkyKong: But I don't want to stop the coronavirus. I want to mess with Smash fans.

 

[Dinoman96]

Guys, we've been through like seven character presentations and not one of them has ever revealed a new character beyond that. We're not getting the next character until early next year, presumably around late March.

 

[SKX31]

God
I'm not even a Zelda fan and reading stuff like this makes me feel genuinely sorry for them
Imagine knowing that you are 100% guaranteed to never properly get your main antagonist, despite zelda being one of nintendo's main pillars, becuase smash veterans have latched onto a ****ty meme pick

That kind of statement misses the point entirely, dude.

Some people want a Ganondorf moveset that's accurate to the games instead of "Falcondorf", something they literally can't have by looking at the rest of the 80+ characters.

And also, someone brought up Legacy, so I feel obligated to mention that version of Ganondorf is literally my favorite Brawl mod ever.

Honestly, yeah. I've been of two minds regarding Ganondorf - on one hand, yeah he should get some more changes to him. His sword smashes were a step in the right direction, although they could've replaced Warlock Punch. It's not only a canonicity problem, but also: Warlock Punch A) Is only used for hard reads, shield break punishes and disrespect kills, and B) is massively overshadowed by Falcon Punch in the popular conciousness.

On the other, I personally love Falcondorf - not just because I grew up with Melee nor just that I am a competitive nut. I'll say this:

A major reason why Smash veterans - including me - latched onto him was because he's massively hype. Sure, ****ty meme pick and all, but whenever he's played at Smash events, something insane is almost assuredly going to happen. The character rewards adrealine, especially when Ganondorf gets to do something stylish. That, + he's not the most common character played at Smash events at all. It's why (at least certain) Ganondorf highlight reels have very high viewership numbers.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he's seen as a fun character to pick amongst casuals. Many of the online Ganondorfs are probably in this category, where they picked him because of them seeing him as fun or as a way to (try to) disrespect people. Some of those online Ganondorfs have likely watched one or a couple highlight reels and been inspired by that.

Ganondorf's also easy to play by virtue of him being a straightforward but slow character (even if he's a clone of sorts), and that might be a major crux of the issue here. It may not be a huge task to rework Ganondorf in reality, but the point is that the image of Ganondorf as "the King of Disrespect" has by this point seeped deeply into the casual fanbase at large. Sakurai might've been hesitant to change Ganondorf further because he's "supposed to" be this hard-hitting force that can cause panic amongst his opponents. That's what pro player Dabuz commented on: Sure, Ganondorf has a lot of weaknesses... but when he gets in your head, fear sets in hard and you might wind up losing a stock seconds after that.

Me: You invented time travel, and you're using it to mess with Smash fans? But with tech like that, you could have stopped the coronavirus and prevented numerous deaths and layoffs!
WonkyKong: But I don't want to stop the coronavirus. I want to mess with Smash fans.

Wait, are you reffering to that semi-infamous Spiderman panel?

 

[Deleted member]

If we get a character ‘reveal’ in the presentation it’ll be some random minute detail they didn’t scrub like the SNK copyright leak.

 

[Eldrake]

I've always thought that the Falcondorf issue could be bypassed with something I'd call Styles that gives certain fighters the option of selecting between two completely different movesets. So Ganondorf could hypothetically have a Falcondorf style and a MoretruetotheZeldagames Warlock style.

Wait, are you reffering to that semi-infamous Spiderman panel?

Yeah.

 

[Momotsuki]

I'm gonna get burned at the stake for saying it, but - I think I can look at Smash Ganondorf like of any other incarnation of Ganondorf as he's appeared in various forms throughout his home series; a form the King of Evil took on for the occasion. Canon or not, you really feel like Batman Spiderman the mayor a king of darkness when playing as this bloke, assuming you don't suck.

Also, don't tell me he's not using magic. I wonder what that purple stuff is when he's punching and kicking!

 

[Kokiden]

It's been awhile since I paid attention to smash before Sephiroth reveal, but just to confirm, when the 2nd season pass was announced, did they say anything about all 6 characters having already been decided?

That's a yes, right? It's been awhile, so I forgot.

 

[I.D.]

Honestly, yeah. I've been of two minds regarding Ganondorf - on one hand, yeah he should get some more changes to him. His sword smashes were a step in the right direction, although they could've replaced Warlock Punch. It's not only a canonicity problem, but also: Warlock Punch A) Is only used for hard reads, shield break punishes and disrespect kills, and B) is massively overshadowed by Falcon Punch in the popular conciousness.

On the other, I personally love Falcondorf - not just because I grew up with Melee nor just that I am a competitive nut. I'll say this:

A major reason why Smash veterans - including me - latched onto him was because he's massively hype. Sure, ****ty meme pick and all, but whenever he's played at Smash events, something insane is almost assuredly going to happen. The character rewards adrealine, especially when Ganondorf gets to do something stylish. That, + he's not the most common character played at Smash events at all. It's why (at least certain) Ganondorf highlight reels have very high viewership numbers.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he's seen as a fun character to pick amongst casuals. Many of the online Ganondorfs are probably in this category, where they picked him because of them seeing him as fun or as a way to (try to) disrespect people. Some of those online Ganondorfs have likely watched one or a couple highlight reels and been inspired by that.

Ganondorf's also easy to play by virtue of him being a straightforward but slow character (even if he's a clone of sorts), and that might be a major crux of the issue here. It may not be a huge task to rework Ganondorf in reality, but the point is that the image of Ganondorf as "the King of Disrespect" has by this point seeped deeply into the casual fanbase at large. Sakurai might've been hesitant to change Ganondorf further because he's "supposed to" be this hard-hitting force that can cause panic amongst his opponents. That's what pro player Dabuz commented on: Sure, Ganondorf has a lot of weaknesses... but when he gets in your head, fear sets in hard and you might wind up losing a stock seconds after that.



Wait, are you reffering to that semi-infamous Spiderman panel?

View attachment 295641

I disagree with a lot of this but even leaving aside gameplay for a moment, something that a lot of smash fans forget, particularly those on the competitive side, is that smash games aren't only for smash fans. It's a crossover first and foremost. Why should people who are Zelda fans first continue to endure a half-assed cast just because people who are smash fans first can't accept change? Is it fair to them? I don't know, but I can perfectly understand where their grievances come from.

Oh and I don't buy the "he's popular online" argument. He's popular online because the online in this game is bad and most of the playerbase are WiFi warriors. If Ultimate had decent netcode and the Switch actually came with a proper ethernet port he'd be as popular as he is in offline play: a cheesy meme pick.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I'm gonna get burned at the stake for saying it, but - I think I can look at Smash Ganondorf like of any other incarnation of Ganondorf as he's appeared in various forms throughout his home series; a form the King of Evil took on for the occasion. Canon or not, you really feel like Batman Spiderman the mayor a king of darkness when playing as this bloke, assuming you don't suck.

I have to agree. Ganondorf just feels more threatening when he's using his fists to fight. I know he's a magic user but when he's distancing himself from his opponents, you don't get same kind of vibe of him running up to you and beating the ever living daylights out of you.

 

[Momotsuki]

This is weird as hell but I've always appreciated Smash more as its own thing than as a crossover, which - I mean I'm not in denial, I know that's what it is. I just don't care about that. The characters I happen to want, Reimu mainly among plausible possibilities; it really comes down to just being from something else I happen to like. Seeing Smash in its own context - it's a similar thing to how a lot of Melee folks feel about Melee, though in my case it involves a little more of the series, Melee and Ultimate more than anything.

If an inaccurate Ganondorf is cooler than an accurate one, then let him remain inaccurate.

 

[Deleted member]

For the googolplexth time, we are NOT getting any reveal in the presentation. The Japanese live stream has posted the reminder.

For crying out loud, it hasn't even been a week and people are already begging for a reveal in the presentation. I am sorry, but you are going to have to get used to waiting. Be patient.

 

[Dinoman96]

Sakurai on Smash Bros. Ultimate - why Decidueye wasn't chosen, Piranha Plant, character changes, online, much more

Ridley: Thin and Tall Up until now, Ridley has only appeared in the Smash Bros. series as a boss character. What did you have in mind when you were turning him into a playable fighter? Sakurai: How huge he is, for one. You can see him standing up straight for a moment in one of his taunts –...

nintendoeverything.com

In terms of requests, there were a lot that entailed wanting Ganondorf to use a sword. I felt like renewing a few of the fighters was a good decision but changing them too much would have made them completely different characters.

I think Sakurai just wants to avoid doing what say, Capcom did with Jill Valentine back in MVC3: pretty much completely gutting out their old moveset in favour of an entirely new one, thus basically cutting out the original character from the series and putting an entirely different one in their place.

He'll change the characters up a bit, just as he's done with Ganondorf over the years, but I imagine he wants the fighters to retain their core identity for each installment. Ganondorf was born as a clone of Captain Falcon, and for thus for better or worse he'll remain a deriative of Falcon at his heart in future installments.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Today’s December 15th, 2020. Today marks the release of the Vergil DLC for DMC5, and it also marks exactly 10 years since I started at Capcom. I’ve had so many amazing experiences and met amazing people, all thanks to those that have given me the opportunity. pic.twitter.com/SYlh4bvI3W

— Matt Walker (@retroOtoko) December 15, 2020

Matt Walker's message on the Vergil DLC being released today for DMC5.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Also, don't tell me he's not using magic. I wonder what that purple stuff is when he's punching and kicking!

Obviously:

 

[I.D.]

This is weird as hell but I've always appreciated Smash more as its own thing than as a crossover, which - I mean I'm not in denial, I know that's what it is. I just don't care about that. The characters I happen to want, Reimu mainly among plausible possibilities; it really just comes down to just being from something else I happen to like. Seeing Smash in its own context - it's a similar thing to how a lot of Melee folks feel about Melee, though in my case it involves most of the series, Melee and Ultimate more than anything.

If an inaccurate Ganondorf is cooler than an accurate one, then let him remain inaccurate.

I'm sure you'd really like it if Sakurai put Reimu in the game as a half assed Ness clone.

 

[Momotsuki]

I'm sure you'd really like it if Sakurai put Reimu in the game as a half assed Ness clone.

Depends if it's either that or no Reimu, really. I'm a little familiar with both PSI boys, I could figure it out. How will they be altering her attributes from Ness to better suit the character? They've done that with Ganondorf.

Also, I'm having trouble understanding you and the silliness you've been going on about; are you saying Ganondorf as he currently exists should simply be cut entirely in favor of a revamped Ganondorf? With nobody to inherit it, the playstyle simply gone?

You're a real silly one, but that's okay.

 

[kirbsmash]

I do wish they kept her Twilight Princess look though. I'm not a fan of how childlike she looks in Ultimate. They could've kept that as an alternative look like how they did for Bayo and Cloud.

Funnily people usually says she looks better here than as TP Zelda. Also how would that work if we only have BOTW Link?

He'll change the characters up a bit, just as he's done with Ganondorf over the years, but I imagine he wants the fighters to retain their core identity for each installment. Ganondorf was born as a clone of Captain Falcon, and for thus for better or worse he'll remain a deriative of Falcon at his heart in future installments.

I figured that this was the case, since he made Doc playable again out of worry for his fans.

 

[random rendum]

Speaking of half-assed clones, Ganondorf has such a bad moveset representing him. He's one of Nintendo's top 5 villains yet he's relegated to a clone of Captain Falcon.


On another note, I think we'll be getting a Pigarithm Spirit or Mii Costume. We do need some Whoa Zone representation...

 

[RetrogamerMax]

It's been awhile since I paid attention to smash before Sephiroth reveal, but just to confirm, when the 2nd season pass was announced, did they say anything about all 6 characters having already been decided?

That's a yes, right? It's been awhile, so I forgot.

All 6 Fighter's Pass 2 characters were set in stone the moment Fighter's Pass 2 was announced.

 

[Momotsuki]

Speaking of half-assed clones, Ganondorf has such a bad moveset representing him. He's one of Nintendo's top 5 villains yet he's relegated to a clone of Captain Falcon.


On another note, I think we'll be getting a Pigarithm Spirit or Mii Costume. We do need some Whoa Zone representation...View attachment 295645

I mean - if we need Woah Zone representation, I've got the echo fighter for the job...

 

[kirbsmash]

All 6 Fighter's Pass 2 characters were set in stone the moment Fighter's Pass 2 was announced.

what if we have an semi-clone i this pass?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

what if we have an semi-clone i this pass?

Possible if only the semi-clone was planned before they announced Fighter's Pass 2. We are getting 6 characters in that Pass. Plus, semi-clones are different from Echos despite them sharing some attributes with existing fighters.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sakurai on Smash Bros. Ultimate - why Decidueye wasn't chosen, Piranha Plant, character changes, online, much more

Ridley: Thin and Tall Up until now, Ridley has only appeared in the Smash Bros. series as a boss character. What did you have in mind when you were turning him into a playable fighter? Sakurai: How huge he is, for one. You can see him standing up straight for a moment in one of his taunts –...

nintendoeverything.com

I think Sakurai just wants to avoid doing what say, Capcom did with Jill Valentine back in MVC3: pretty much completely gutting out their old moveset in favour of an entirely new one, thus basically cutting out the original character from the series and putting an entirely different one in their place.

He'll change the characters up a bit, just as he's done with Ganondorf over the years, but I imagine he wants the fighters to retain their core identity for each installment. Ganondorf was born as a clone of Captain Falcon, and for thus for better or worse he'll remain a deriative of Falcon at his heart in future installments.

A new neutral B at the very least wouldn't screw everything over. He doesn't need that alongside his ultra-slow up tilt anyway.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Depends if it's either that or no Reimu, really. I'm a little familiar with both PSI boys, I could figure it out.
Also, I'm having trouble understanding you and the silliness you've been going on about; are you saying Ganondorf as he currently exists should simply be cut entirely in favor of a revamped Ganondorf? With nobody to inherit it, the playstyle simply gone?
You're a real silly one, but that's okay.

I mean... frankly, I think I could have waited one more game for a good Ganondorf playstyle.

On one hand, I do like watching his current one in competitive, and I play him once in a blue moon, but at the same time... it feels really odd. He's one of Nintendo's most iconic characters, and yet he plays like a less iconic one from a completely different franchise.

That's like... if MvC Vergil had a playstyle copying Arthur. It's pretty much the reason why I can never play Dorf for long - it doesn't feel like I'm playing Dorf.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Sakurai on Smash Bros. Ultimate - why Decidueye wasn't chosen, Piranha Plant, character changes, online, much more

Ridley: Thin and Tall Up until now, Ridley has only appeared in the Smash Bros. series as a boss character. What did you have in mind when you were turning him into a playable fighter? Sakurai: How huge he is, for one. You can see him standing up straight for a moment in one of his taunts –...

nintendoeverything.com

I think Sakurai just wants to avoid doing what say, Capcom did with Jill Valentine back in MVC3: pretty much completely gutting out their old moveset in favour of an entirely new one, thus basically cutting out the original character from the series and putting an entirely different one in their place.

He'll change the characters up a bit, just as he's done with Ganondorf over the years, but I imagine he wants the fighters to retain their core identity for each installment. Ganondorf was born as a clone of Captain Falcon, and for thus for better or worse he'll remain a deriative of Falcon at his heart in future installments.

In fairness, MVC3-Jill was still based off of her canon abilities and appearance in an actual Resident Evil game.

I'm admittedly no expert on the series, but I doubt Ganondorf fights anything like Captain Falcon in any of the Zelda games. Even the specific sword he got in Ultimate, while a step in the right direction, was to my knowledge not something he used in Ocarina of Time or any of the other Zelda games, instead it was from a Spaceworld GameCube demo.

 

[I.D.]

Depends if it's either that or no Reimu, really.
Also, I'm having trouble understanding you; are you saying Ganondorf as he currently exists should simply be cut entirely in favor of a revamped Ganondorf, with nobody to inherit the playstyle, a Smash landmark simply gone?
You're a real silly one, but that's okay.

His playstyle doesn't need to be inherited, first of all it wouldn't even be fully gone since Captain Falcon exists, and second it's an objectively terribly designed kit that has never been good despite Sakurai's efforts.

Not even people who defend it thinks it's good or else they wouldn't call him "King of Disrespect" in the first place. There is nothing interesting about it: it's overly simplistic, derivative of another fighter, bad, rigid, and doesn't even have a theme beyond "guuuuh bad slow man hits hard". Its greatest claim to fame is being a noobstomper.

But really even with all that, that's not the worst part about it. Lots of fighting games have joke characters with joke movesets. The problem here is that Ganondorf got randomly stuck with this particular joke moveset in Melee because of pure chance, and now apparently has to be stuck with it forever and ever due to sheer stubborness.

 

[Kokiden]

Funnily people usually says she looks better here than as TP Zelda. Also how would that work if we only have BOTW Link?

Not sure what Link has got to do with it?

He's got a bunch of other versions of himself anyway.

I have a preference when it comes to character aesthetics and Zelda in Ultimate just doesn't hit that spot for me. Too childlike for my taste.

Nothing more, nothing less.

All 6 Fighter's Pass 2 characters were set in stone the moment Fighter's Pass 2 was announced.

Thanks for confirming.

 

[Momotsuki]

His playstyle doesn't need to be inherited, first of all it wouldn't even be fully gone since Captain Falcon exists, and second it's an objectively terribly designed kit that has never been good despite Sakurai's efforts.

Not even people who defend it thinks it's good or else they wouldn't call him "King of Disrespect" in the first place. There is nothing interesting about it: it's overly simplistic, derivative of another fighter, bad, rigid, and doesn't eve have a theme beyond "guuuuh bad slow man hits hard". Its greatest claim to fame is being a noobstomper.

But really even with all that, that's not the worst part about it. Lots of fighting games have joke characters with joke movesets. The problem here is that Ganondorf got stuck with this particular joke moveset in Melee because of pure chance during Melee, and now apparently has to be stuck with it forever due to sheer stubborness.

You lost me calling Ganondorf's kit objectively terrible from a design standpoint. It's not competitively viable, nobody will argue that, but that's not the point. There's more to consider about designing a character than how they'll do at the top level of play; you're not going to make this kind of playstyle competitively viable in a platform fighter. It's not going to happen, but that's okay!

 

[I.D.]

You lost me calling Ganondorf's kit objectively terrible from a design standpoint. It's not competitively viable, nobody will argue that, but that's not the point. There's more to consider about designing a character than how they'll do at the top level of play; you're not going to make this kind of playstyle competitively viable in a platform fighter. It's not going to happen, but that's okay!

Please enlighten me on how hard Sakurai worked on Ganondorf's design the day he decided to make him a Falcon clone.

 

[Deleted member]

I am patiently counting out the days til Sephiroth's release. I really hope I can get a handle on his playstyle. I love Joker, but his playstyle is too quick for me; it was really hard getting used to him and I ended up not playing him as much because of it. I did get good with Hero though. I practiced with him doing the 5v5 mode with level 9 CPUs and seeing how long I can keep going with Hero. Figured that was a good way to get better lol.