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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Cutie Gwen

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Fair enough. Though honestly is Bandana Dee really that talked about much in comparison to other characters?
When it comes to potential Nintendo characters, I feel that the most consistent 5 on this site tends to be Rex, Waluigi, a Pokemon, Akira Howard and Bandana Dee unordered. Obviously that's just my perspective on primarily browsing this thread, so I could be wrong there
 

7NATOR

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When Steve was added, the Copyright was added to Include Mojiang AB, which I believe was the name of the Company before being bought by Microsoft

I think Nintendo and Sakurai might see Steve as an Indie Rep because of this.
 

3BitSaurus

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To get back on topic with Smash stuff- question for some of you.

I recently watched a Delzethin video where he goes over potential Challenger Pack 8 picks. The “likely” picks were essentially the same as they always are, being BWD, Lloyd Irving, Geno, Rex and Pyra, Sora, Ryu Hayabusa.

Then, Crash, Dante, Master Chief, Doomslayer, and Monster Hunter were put into “red herrings”.In other words, “people think they’re happening but no”.

Here’s my beef with the video. Bandanna Waddle Dee is propped up on a basis of, “What if there’s a new game on Switch?” and “He’s a popular request!”...which is also a reason folks use for Crash, Dante, and Monster Hunter.

The Red Herring concept is also used to say, “People talk a lot about them so they’re probably not that likely/ happening”. But if that’s the case, why is it characterized as “long term/highly popular fan want” for the characters he chooses, especially like Hayabusa (who I also agree is likely)? Hayabusa has been in more fake leaks than I can count on hands and feet!

I think some points are good, but seemingly inconsistent. If reasoning supports one character, how does that same reasoning not support another? While it’s not objectively a bad thing, there’s usually a Nintendo-centric bias in these videos so I can see where certain characters end up where they are... if it were a wishlist. But it’s meant as a speculative piece, and slants toward the “Nintendo connection” narrative, which I don’t think has enough of a foundation this time around in DLC.

What are some thoughts here? I’m not nearly as invested in speculation lately but I still am interested in who gets in. Curious to see what others think!
I mean, I disagree with his thoughts on the "likely" and "red herring" picks, but... I also see very little point in debating it considering it seems focused mostly on opinion.

Regarding the "Nintendo connection" bit, if I'm allowed to play devil's advocate for a sec: it might not be a requirement per se, but the fact that only three characters so far have a bigger connections with other platforms, out of all guests (nevermind all characters) probably means that it can indeed be helpful.

To be clear: Sakurai probably doesn't choose (or veto) characters based on Nintendo presence, but considering that the game is primarily sold to those with a Nintendo system at this point, it certainly doesn't hurt to have something that people can pick up and play to learn more about the franchise. Like, so far, only Persona 5 and the original Banjo-Kazooie games aren't readily available on the Switch, out of all Challenger Packs so far, if I'm not mistaken.

TL:DR - it's not a roadblock by any means, but it might be a point in a character's favor.

I think we need a video for underdogs, darkhorses, and overlooked characters for once, instead of just the same old CRASH HAYABUSA DOOMGUY GENO SORA REX POKEMON CRASH that we already know about.

As for my personal predictions:
  • Only two characters who are regularly speculated will get in. Smash has a history of throwing curveballs that don't line up with our predictions. It's not that we're inherently wrong; It's just that we don't work at Nintendo and don't know exactly what they're looking for. That being said, there's definitely reasons we've been focusing on these character, so we can't just throw them to the wind just because "Smash fans are never right" or whatever.
  • Going off of the above, this means we'd end up with two unexpected picks. Depending on which circles we're in, this means the ratio of expected characters and left-fielders would either be 2:4 or an even 3:3, which sounds pretty reasonable in my opinion.
  • While I don't think lack of Nintendo connection is too much of a barricade if the company that owns them is willing and reachable, based on past precedent I think we'll only get one more character distanced from Nintendo, maybe a second if we're lucky.
  • We'll get Isaac at least one more first-party character. Based on previous DLC favoring third-parties for new content, I'm thinking we'll either get only one more Nintendo character or a 50-50 split.
  • I still believe we'll get an indie rep. Steve in Smash is a win for indies, but he's a Microsoft character now and indies weren't mentioned in his overview. Given how friendly Nintendo is with indies, I'm expecting a character who represents indies specifically. Currently, my money's on either Reimu or Shovel Knight. The Knight or Madeline could also happen, but they're not my first picks. I would consider Quote too, but apparently Nicalis has a history of outright ghosting collaborators, so...
  • One character will be a fan-favorite who mainly got in through requests, like King K. Rool or Banjo and Kazooie. Resurgence is optional. Currently I'm leaning Isaac. Geno could happen too, but he has more stacked against him.
I think I can see most of it happening, except maybe indies. I think if Shovel Knight, Undertale and Cuphead couldn't make it, then it's hard for me to think of someone who stands a chance. I guess Reimu, The Knight and Cadence, maybe, but the former one is a big question mark imo and the latter two could very well end up as Miis.
 

Miles of SmashWiki

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I have my doubts about Rex's viability. Not just because he had a paid DLC Mii costume (as part of a package), but because said Mii costume was introduced as, essentially a mini version of what the DLC fighter packs were. Sakurai showed off the Mii costume, then highlighted that there was XC2 music and spirits in the game too - even though said other content wasn't DLC. It certainly seemed to me to be a presentation of "here's the XC2 content for this game" in a way analogous to, say, Byleth's presentation being "here's the 3H content for this game".
 

Scoliosis Jones

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You know what? Fine, I’ll be honest.

I didn’t like Delzethin’s video because it didn’t specifically point out that Resident Evil, known as Biohazard in Japan, is the pinnacle of survivor horror gameplay. The fact that it has been relegated to Spirits in an all-star crossover is a travesty, when you have picks like Chris “Boulder-crusher” Redfield or a variety of tentacle monsters. I cannot believe that anybody wouldn’t actively support such a wonderful series, striking fear into the hearts of players everywhere with the perfectly crafted gameplay, crossing over with other beloved characters.

But where would I be without the other obvious missing piece...Pepsiman is among the most iconic characters ever, yet we’re asking for characters like Coke Bear or Cranberry Sprite Lebron. It’s a disgrace.
 

Rie Sonomura

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I have my doubts about Rex's viability. Not just because he had a paid DLC Mii costume (as part of a package), but because said Mii costume was introduced as, essentially a mini version of what the DLC fighter packs were. Sakurai showed off the Mii costume, then highlighted that there was XC2 music and spirits in the game too - even though said other content wasn't DLC. It certainly seemed to me to be a presentation of "here's the XC2 content for this game" in a way analogous to, say, Byleth's presentation being "here's the 3H content for this game".
That’s what I’m thinking too, that and the attention to detail they gave his costume, like the little Titan (WHY DID I FORGET HIS NAME??? AND I CALL MYSELF A XENOBLADE FAN) and most importantly, Pyra’s sword with Pyra herself being absent
 

PacificFun

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You know what? Fine, I’ll be honest.

I didn’t like Delzethin’s video because it didn’t specifically point out that Resident Evil, known as Biohazard in Japan, is the pinnacle of survivor horror gameplay. The fact that it has been relegated to Spirits in an all-star crossover is a travesty, when you have picks like Chris “Boulder-crusher” Redfield or a variety of tentacle monsters. I cannot believe that anybody wouldn’t actively support such a wonderful series, striking fear into the hearts of players everywhere with the perfectly crafted gameplay, crossing over with other beloved characters.

But where would I be without the other obvious missing piece...Pepsiman is among the most iconic characters ever, yet we’re asking for characters like Coke Bear or Cranberry Sprite Lebron. It’s a disgrace.
I think RE didn't get in because its be hard to implement the "spirit" of RE into a Smash moveset. The very nature of RE is managing low resources and survival. And the protags are very "normal" for the most part. How do you organically translate that into Smash?

Edit: Wait, I can't tell if this post is ironic and now I'm scared.
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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I think RE didn't get in because its be hard to implement the "spirit" of RE into a Smash moveset. The very nature of RE is managing low resources and survival. And the protags are very "normal" for the most part. How do you organically translate that into Smash?

Edit: Wait, I can't tell if this post is ironic and now I'm scared.
You must be new here. All according to plan...:evil:
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Fair enough. Though honestly is Bandana Dee really that talked about much in comparison to other characters?
As far as I know, he's mentioned a lot, but generally agreed to not be happening.

...like the little Titan (WHY DID I FORGET HIS NAME??? AND I CALL MYSELF A XENOBLADE FAN)...
Gramps, or Azurda if you're not Rex.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I think RE didn't get in because its be hard to implement the "spirit" of RE into a Smash moveset. The very nature of RE is managing low resources and survival. And the protags are very "normal" for the most part. How do you organically translate that into Smash?

Edit: Wait, I can't tell if this post is ironic and now I'm scared.
Scol was known for shilling RE as a potential character constantly, it's part of the lore that the spirit announcement made him go insane and make fine ****posts such as these. In all seriousness though RE feels super easy to adapt, especially when Banjo's gimmick got introduced, a sluggish character with very powerful but limited options like ammo or herbs, what made RE so scary for gamers wasn't the zombie dogs, but that they had a chance to run out of healing items, ammo and even chances to save the game if they weren't careful. Resource management is also a tried and true mechanic in fighting games, including Smash
 

GoodGrief741

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But why would you advertise Custom Robo if I can't play it on your newest console? Mind you if this was the base game, I wouldn't be saying this. Now, if we do get someone akin to Dixie or Issac, I will gladly eat my words.
The point was that if Nintendo thinks a franchise has a future they can add a character from it, and it doesn't matter whether it started on the Switch or on any other console.
 

7NATOR

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Also I got to ask

If TGA comes and Go and there's no Smash reveal, Will Dante's Chances go down in Likelihood?

Nintendo do plan these reveals out, and DMC has been big part of TGA with DMC5 winning awards and such. Also Bayonetta 3 was revealed there, and Bayonetta would likely be in Dante's Hypothetical Trailer?
 

PacificFun

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Scol was known for shilling RE as a potential character constantly, it's part of the lore that the spirit announcement made him go insane and make fine ****posts such as these. In all seriousness though RE feels super easy to adapt, especially when Banjo's gimmick got introduced, a sluggish character with very powerful but limited options like ammo or herbs, what made RE so scary for gamers wasn't the zombie dogs, but that they had a chance to run out of healing items, ammo and even chances to save the game if they weren't careful. Resource management is also a tried and true mechanic in fighting games, including Smash
Ahhh, gotcha. That makes more sense now.

With Resident Evil, the limited ammo stuff could definitely work but I don't know if it would be necessarily "fun". Banjo Wonder Wing is a good implementation of resources (and Robin's magic and K. Rool's Armor) but I'm not sure how they would make it "fascinating". Does that make sense?

Keep in mind, I really wanted Jill playable at one point and was pretty deflated by the spirits. But after I thought about it, I kind of understand why they didn't make the cut (unless they were never on the table at all).

But I do feel like Resident Evil could at least use a stage? Or just make Nemesis playable and call it a day.
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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The point was that if Nintendo thinks a franchise has a future they can add a character from it, and it doesn't matter whether it started on the Switch or on any other console.
While I do agree with this, I think it’s worth noting that most of the “new” first party content has been from Switch titles. Mario Odyssey, Splatoon, BOTW, ARMS, Mario Kart 8, Three Houses, Xenoblade,...Dragon Quest XIS isn’t first party, but it definitely fits that “Switch” game mold.

Doesn’t mean it’s the be all end all, I just think it’s interesting.
 

MooMew64

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To get back on topic with Smash stuff- question for some of you.

I recently watched a Delzethin video where he goes over potential Challenger Pack 8 picks. The “likely” picks were essentially the same as they always are, being BWD, Lloyd Irving, Geno, Rex and Pyra, Sora, Ryu Hayabusa.

Then, Crash, Dante, Master Chief, Doomslayer, and Monster Hunter were put into “red herrings”.In other words, “people think they’re happening but no”.

Here’s my beef with the video. Bandanna Waddle Dee is propped up on a basis of, “What if there’s a new game on Switch?” and “He’s a popular request!”...which is also a reason folks use for Crash, Dante, and Monster Hunter.

The Red Herring concept is also used to say, “People talk a lot about them so they’re probably not that likely/ happening”. But if that’s the case, why is it characterized as “long term/highly popular fan want” for the characters he chooses, especially like Hayabusa (who I also agree is likely)? Hayabusa has been in more fake leaks than I can count on hands and feet!

I think some points are good, but seemingly inconsistent. If reasoning supports one character, how does that same reasoning not support another? While it’s not objectively a bad thing, there’s usually a Nintendo-centric bias in these videos so I can see where certain characters end up where they are... if it were a wishlist. But it’s meant as a speculative piece, and slants toward the “Nintendo connection” narrative, which I don’t think has enough of a foundation this time around in DLC.

What are some thoughts here? I’m not nearly as invested in speculation lately but I still am interested in who gets in. Curious to see what others think!
Haven't seen the video myself, but it definitely sounds like it slants more towards biases and the age-old "Nintendo connections are needed" misconceptions that have been in speculation for years.

Honestly? I'm not quite sure I understand their list of likely picks outside of Hayabusa:

- BWD doesn't have anything really going for him right now, and if you want to look at recent trends across all 7 DLC characters so far, none of those help him either. Seems like they're operating on a bunch of mights and maybes when it comes to whether or not Nintendo all of a sudden decides a new Kirby game needs top billing promotion, and that BWD would be the character to promote for that...If there even is a Kirby game coming soon.

- I plan on doing a much larger write-up on Geno soon here to share why I don't feel he's quite as likely as some think, but to me, there isn't anything substantial for him right now outside of a passionate fanbase that has been vocal. All the current "evidence" is circumstantial, or based off of wishful thinking and false leaks and theories that have very, very shakey sources. I don't think Geno is more likely than any other character at the moment, and TBH if I could see any of these characters winding up as a "red herring", it could very easily see it being him.

- Rex and Pyra are a potential, yes, but there isn't anything that really points to them outside of wishful thinking due to Min Min. Honestly, I think that Rex Mii costume and the circumstances behind it are a lot more detrimental than some may expect in the end.

- Sora...Wha? I mean, no offense, but how is Sora likely right now? Nothing specifically has pointed towards him or happened with him that makes him more likely than any other Square candidate, so this one confuses me. Seems like a "Well, people talk about him, so that must mean he's likely!" scenario.

- Ryu Hayabusa is a strong candidate given Nintendo and Koei's relationship at the moment and the fact he's cropped up in insider circles for so long now. Ninja Gaiden getting releases soon here doesn't hurt either.

Their list of red herrings don't make much sense either:

- Dante is a red herring and Ryu Hayabusa isn't? I'm really curious to hear why they think this: If Nintendo connections are why Ryu's likely, then Dante's looking super good right now with all the old game's getting ported and one of them even being an exclusive version with enhancements, lol.

- Crash I could understand looking sketchy, and I do think a lot of assumptions are being made because of that very dubious leak that happened recently, but I wouldn't quite discount him just yet. I could very easily see him making it in due to popularity, relevance, and fan demand. Do these things make him stand apart? No, but it doesn't discount him either. I'd say Crash sits pretty even at a 50/50 shot right now, I could really see it go either way.

- Master Chief is IMO out. I'm really sorry to Chief fans, but I just don't see us getting two characters from the same 3rd party company in this pass, and I don't think a third pass is super likely right now.

- Doomslayer could potentially make it in, but I think there are several road blocks at the moment. The one interview with the devs feels like a pretty resound deconfirm to me, so I'm not personally really considering him at the moment.

- Monster Hunter is in the same boat as Dante for me where, in my opinion, I think it sits super well at the moment. It really will come down to DMC or Monster Hunter, and while I'm expecting DMC to win out in the end, I definitely think Monster Hunter could surprise us.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Ahhh, gotcha. That makes more sense now.

With Resident Evil, the limited ammo stuff could definitely work but I don't know if it would be necessarily "fun". Banjo Wonder Wing is a good implementation of resources (and Robin's magic and K. Rool's Armor) but I'm not sure how they would make it "fascinating". Does that make sense?

Keep in mind, I really wanted Jill playable at one point and was pretty deflated by the spirits. But after I thought about it, I kind of understand why they didn't make the cut (unless they were never on the table at all).

But I do feel like Resident Evil could at least use a stage? Or just make Nemesis playable haha.
I'd say give it proper balancing, the best example being the traditional magnum (No, realistic guns aren't banned for kids media in Japan shut up) working like Wonderwing, making the gun an incredibly fast and powerful projectile that'll crumple foes who are hit that lets you potentially follow up with a good read, but you only get so many per stock or even per match. It's simple yet effective at communicating that players can do VERY well but need to make sure they land it when it matters and can't aimlessly use it. Sound design would also help sell the impact of it. One could argue that a character who typically gets weaker the longer they stay alive doesn't sound fun to play as, but that's as subjective as me saying it's really interesting and how I'd love to see the kind of mind games a Jill/Chris/Leon main could pull off
 

PacificFun

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Not gonna lie, the real reason I float around here is because Gamefaqs became too unbearable for me. I'm on a 4-5 momth hiatus but didn't have an outlet for DLC discussion anymore.

Every inch of the internet is "bad" but Gamefaqs...can take a lot of energy out of you.
 
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SharkLord

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I still think Frisk will be our first Indie rep, I'm not sure if it would be this pass or a future game but I do believe that Undertale will be the first Indie to get a playable character (or at least one of the first)

Reasons why I think they are mostly out of the count but I'm not completely ignoring:
-No Spirits, Cuphead got them almost immediately after the costume
-Sans came with 1 song and it released before the pass was finalized, The pass was finalized around November which was after the sans costume, Maybe it made enough money to get the interest of Nintendo, and 1 song being locked behind a 75c paywall is not that big of a deal, there are 3 other versions of Megalovania they could choose for a main pack.

again I don't think it is happening but I will keep my on the possibility of a potential Undertale character
To be honest I think the concept of an Undertale pack died with Sans, at least for this game. Sans came with a a remix of the most iconic Undertale song there is, composed by Toby Fox himself, specifically for Smash. An Undertale pack would either make that redundant or would come off as odd without the new remix of the most Undertale song possible.

On a side note, has it been confirmed that the pass was actually finalized by November? I thought the general assumption around here is that it was planned out around E3, or at least it started around then. Can I have a quick refresher on that topic?
 
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To get back on topic with Smash stuff- question for some of you.

I recently watched a Delzethin video where he goes over potential Challenger Pack 8 picks. The “likely” picks were essentially the same as they always are, being BWD, Lloyd Irving, Geno, Rex and Pyra, Sora, Ryu Hayabusa.

Then, Crash, Dante, Master Chief, Doomslayer, and Monster Hunter were put into “red herrings”.In other words, “people think they’re happening but no”.

Here’s my beef with the video. Bandanna Waddle Dee is propped up on a basis of, “What if there’s a new game on Switch?” and “He’s a popular request!”...which is also a reason folks use for Crash, Dante, and Monster Hunter.

The Red Herring concept is also used to say, “People talk a lot about them so they’re probably not that likely/ happening”. But if that’s the case, why is it characterized as “long term/highly popular fan want” for the characters he chooses, especially like Hayabusa (who I also agree is likely)? Hayabusa has been in more fake leaks than I can count on hands and feet!

I think some points are good, but seemingly inconsistent. If reasoning supports one character, how does that same reasoning not support another? While it’s not objectively a bad thing, there’s usually a Nintendo-centric bias in these videos so I can see where certain characters end up where they are... if it were a wishlist. But it’s meant as a speculative piece, and slants toward the “Nintendo connection” narrative, which I don’t think has enough of a foundation this time around in DLC.

What are some thoughts here? I’m not nearly as invested in speculation lately but I still am interested in who gets in. Curious to see what others think!
Decided to spoiler tag my post because its long. TL;DR at the bottom....which isn't far down thanks to spoiler tags hiding the bulk of this post lol.

I think it boils down to a simple thing: these DLC characters added aren't added just on fan desires alone. Look at Steve; he was Hype inducing, and sure Fans are happy for him, but who was asking for him? The only times support for him ever came up was when their were leaks for him; then you had people chiming in with how they'd like him.

He was in development/talks for 5 years. Consider that a moment.

Many of these characters were probably thought about, and decided on, long before any leaks any came out; before any kind of Fan Speculation came in to play. Honestly speaking, the only real fan demand character that made it in was Banjo-Kazooie; the rest were characters discussed long before we knew how wild this game was truly going to be.

So, where am I going with this?

I'm trying to say look at it from Nintendo's point of view. They looked at the roster of characters they had to choose from before any 'Support Threads' for this new game was made. So what was around at the time with huge amounts of appeal and a large fanbase that would attract attention to this game? Also, who was possible? Because not every game was likely possible.

Minecraft has had mass PC appeal since before they had started development on Ultimate so that would add a whole new market (PC players) to reach out to.

Terry comes from a whole new region with mass appeal in latin America and in the Philipines. When looking for a character with broad mass appeal, that was probably the best choice for an area outside Japan and the West.

Dragon Quest, despite people here not really getting it, is just as big; if not bigger; than the Final fantasy franchise. Again, another big appealing character and not necesarily one of fan demand (Nobody was really counting on DQ getting a rep other than maybe a couple of super hopeful people).

Of course, this doesn't apply to everyone as both Byleth & Min Min are the glaring standouts of the DLC fighters so far since they don't really 'fit' with the others. Not only are people tired of Fire Emblem characters (to the point where they even had the balls to make fun of it in Byleth's reveal trailer), but many thought that ARMS was already going to be included in Base Roster and that it was going to be Spring Man (nobody really saw the 'They're all main protagonists' plot twist coming) and were super underwhelmed with that addition as well. But take a look at what the two of them have in common: they're the only two fighters (thus far) that are 1st party additions. There's a good chance that any other 1st party characters added will be the same; no real fan demand behind them at all and I think that's just so they can get at least a few of their own 1st party picks in. I think we'll probably only see 1 more first party addition, if that, added.

So where does that leave us in relation to your initial question? I think they looked at the broad appeal of characters back in 2016 or so when they first started prep work on this. Any series that haven't really been in huge gaming spotlights since or has been more of a niche series; might not have been considered. DOOM may be enjoyed by people, but its really outclassed by a lot of other FPS series out there and new games are far and few between. The Doom released PS3 & Xbox 360 back in the day was actually just an HD port + Expansion release of the PC version (and again, this was later ported AGAIN to PS4 and Switch later in 2019), but this means the 'real' last release for the series (that wasn't an expansion) was on Xbox and PC back in 2003. You really going to look at a series whose last main release was 2003 and think Nintendo would consider a series from that? Not to mention how, at the time, Nintendo may have still been a bit unwilling to change from their 'family friendly' image by promoting a game series like DOOM of all things.

There are people who are hoping for Sora and I honestly think that Sakurai & Nintendo already approached Disney years ago about Sora and either the demands were too high for his approval or they flat out refused to let him be added.

As for Devil May Cry, I mentioned it a long time ago, but I think that series doesn't really garner enough attention. Sure, it sells ok upon release, but the truth is that the type of gameplay it introduced back in the day has been done better by many other games since and is actually more memorable than the series itself. God of War, Bayonetta, Arkham Asylum, and even the Souls series each have that Action/RPG combat with more emphasis on evasion and maneuvering during combat. Truth be told, even though I wouldn't really care to see him in, I think Kratos has the highest chance of being added when considering this type of game. Bayonetta is already in and Souls didn't really get more popular in mainstream gaming until Dark Souls III (it was more niche before that) and the same could be said of Bloodborne (you also run into the more M rating problem that you do with DOOM that Nintendo may not have been willing to take a risk on back when this stuff was being decided). I know the same rating things can be thrown back at God of War and even Bayonetta, but when you compare the series fairly, you can see which ones can be represented fairly while toning down the gore and which would be taking more away from it by doing so.

Master Chief, despite coming from another game with a higher maturity rating, can easily be represented without any issue with maturity (Power Shield, jetpack, Grenades like Solid Snake, Active Camo, & Hologram are easy to do without issues for a moveset) as the only real reason that maturity came up was language within the game and violence which is easy enough to tone down without affecting Master Chief's protrayal overall. He also is probably the best rep for a FPS series as he is the most recognizable and the series had consistent releases throughout the years (not all favorable, but definitely more consistent than one like DOOM).

TL;DR - What's 'likely' vs 'unlikely' when it comes to speculation comes down to a lot more than what people are willing to acknowledge and that's what makes it harder to accept some of these speculation videos compared to others.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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If TGA comes and Go and there's no Smash reveal, Will Dante's Chances go down in Likelihood?

Nintendo do plan these reveals out, and DMC has been big part of TGA with DMC5 winning awards and such. Also Bayonetta 3 was revealed there, and Bayonetta would likely be in Dante's Hypothetical Trailer?
Nah. It's just one option. If we were to assume that Dante was in, I still wouldn't put it past them to just do whatever with the initial reveal. Perhaps they wait till a January direct or something.

With Resident Evil, the limited ammo stuff could definitely work but I don't know if it would be necessarily "fun". Banjo Wonder Wing is a good implementation of resources (and Robin's magic and K. Rool's Armor) but I'm not sure how they would make it "fascinating". Does that make sense?
I think that gets more into subjectivity. For example, some people love how Steve's recourse management changes the way you interact with the game, while others just nope right out of the room.

Objectively, I think people who like resource management will like a Resident Evil character's mechanics so long as they're not super clunky or something.
 

PacificFun

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I'd say give it proper balancing, the best example being the traditional magnum (No, realistic guns aren't banned for kids media in Japan shut up) working like Wonderwing, making the gun an incredibly fast and powerful projectile that'll crumple foes who are hit that lets you potentially follow up with a good read, but you only get so many per stock or even per match. It's simple yet effective at communicating that players can do VERY well but need to make sure they land it when it matters and can't aimlessly use it. Sound design would also help sell the impact of it. One could argue that a character who typically gets weaker the longer they stay alive doesn't sound fun to play as, but that's as subjective as me saying it's really interesting and how I'd love to see the kind of mind games a Jill/Chris/Leon main could pull off
Are we talking like a projectile more powerful than PK Flash?
 

GoodGrief741

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While I do agree with this, I think it’s worth noting that most of the “new” first party content has been from Switch titles. Mario Odyssey, Splatoon, BOTW, ARMS, Mario Kart 8, Three Houses, Xenoblade,...Dragon Quest XIS isn’t first party, but it definitely fits that “Switch” game mold.

Doesn’t mean it’s the be all end all, I just think it’s interesting.
As is tradition in Smash. But only having content from Switch games is not the same as only having content from Switch franchises. As fine as I'd be if the last four characters were from Astral Chain, Ring Fit Adventure, Snipperclips and Sushi Striker, I think it'd be a mistake to only look at new franchises when it's pretty much guaranteed that many of Nintendo's evergreen franchises will continue to receive games.
 

cashregister9

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To be honest I think the concept of an Undertale pack died with Sans, at least for this game. Sans came with a a remix of the most iconic Undertale song there is, composed by Toby Fox himself, specifically for Smash. An Undertale pack would either make that redundant or would come off as odd without the new remix of the most Undertale song possible.

On a side note, has it been confirmed that the pass was actually finalized by November? I thought the general assumption around here is that it was planned out around E3, or at least it started around then. Can I have a quick refresher on that topic?
I don't think Nintendo would throw away potential money because of 1 song

In the Byleth presentation which was filmed in November Sakurai said that the Characters have all been decided. so it is safe to assume that the characters were selected around that time.
 

7NATOR

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To be honest I think the concept of an Undertale pack died with Sans, at least for this game. Sans came with a a remix of the most iconic Undertale song there is, composed by Toby Fox himself, specifically for Smash. An Undertale pack would either make that redundant or would come off as odd without the new remix of the most Undertale song possible.

On a side note, has it been confirmed that the pass was actually finalized by November? I thought the general assumption around here is that it was planned out around E3, or at least it started around then. Can I have a quick refresher on that topic?
The Byleth Presentation was flimed in November, and Sakurai in that Presentation said the FP2 Roster was finalized

However it's possible it was finalized even earlier than that. It's also possible that Sakurai was talking in Future tense (since he knew the presentation would be shown months later) and that it was finalized later, but I think that's unlikely outcome
 

PacificFun

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The Byleth Presentation was flimed in November, and Sakurai in that Presentation said the FP2 Roster was finalized

However it's possible it was finalized even earlier than that. It's also possible that Sakurai was talking in Future tense (since he knew the presentation would be shown months later) and that it was finalized later, but I think that's unlikely outcome
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that FP2 was finalized in August 2019.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Are we talking like a projectile more powerful than PK Flash?
Idk, I'm not well versed in balance, especially as there's more factors to take into account than most. Let's imagine like idk, 25% with 3 bullets per stock. That's an absurdly powerful move right there even without the potential crumple effect. But that's part of the beauty in this idea imo, you can think of many different ways to implement the same core idea
 

Cosmic77

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Nintendo is quick to give up on projects if they don't succeed or meet expectations. That's why I think most of the characters who were "rescued" are in Smash solely because of Sakurai. At the very least, we know there was a point in time when Nintendo didn't care about FE or KI (though it seems like they still don't care about the latter). ARMS is really the only blatant example I can think of where Nintendo wanted to keep a franchise fresh, and keep in mind that it had already proven to them that it could sell well. Plus, Sakurai had all but admitted that he would've added an ARMS character anyway if he could.

So to be brutally honest, if Nintendo is calling the shots, I have a hard time seeing them choose someone like Isaac or Chorus Kids unless they're doing it solely for the fans. I think they'd be more inclined to promote a game from a franchise that's already thriving.
 

SharkLord

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I don't think Nintendo would throw away potential money because of 1 song

In the Byleth presentation which was filmed in November Sakurai said that the Characters have all been decided. so it is safe to assume that the characters were selected around that time.
The main thing is that the Sans costume is already available for purchase, and not just as an exclusive bonus like with Rex. From what I can gather, any post-launch content that isn't a fighter is more or less deconfirmed.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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As is tradition in Smash. But only having content from Switch games is not the same as only having content from Switch franchises. As fine as I'd be if the last four characters were from Astral Chain, Ring Fit Adventure, Snipperclips and Sushi Striker, I think it'd be a mistake to only look at new franchises when it's pretty much guaranteed that many of Nintendo's evergreen franchises will continue to receive games.
Once again, I largely agree. However, I’d argue that given the crossover nature of the game, there’s still plenty of top tier gaming industry choices, as opposed to the objective fact that the characters Nintendo has left don’t necessarily stack up. (This is going to be seen as incendiary. Not what I mean, just that typically an industry mascot will be a “bigger” pick characters from smaller series, but that’s also not necessarily the purpose of each pack!)

It largely comes down to what Nintendo sees as worth it, because I see fan demand for their characters. But their first party picks seem largely to coincide with relevant titles they’re looking to push. Does Nintendo choose Golden Sun/Isaac if there isn’t a new game? Or do they think it’s fine with the assist trophy, spirits, and tracks.

Likewise, Chibi-Robo seems basically...dead. I can’t see Nintendo moving to make it playable.

I agree with the sentiment- Nintendo can pick their own characters/IP if the choose to do so. But many of them unfortunately have timing against them. Astral Chain, Ring Fit...both great series that have post-launch spirits, potentially putting them out of contention. Otherwise, it depends on what they feel is worth pushing.

Not trying to say 3rd parties are inherently better or something. Just that it’s “protagonists” or mascots from other companies or a pool of Nintendo characters that aren’t quite at that same level. It’s not necessarily diminishing returns, but with half the roster being filled with those evergreen titles, it shouldn’t be entirely surprising that folks look elsewhere for “new” stuff.
 
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I.D.

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I have my doubts about Rex's viability. Not just because he had a paid DLC Mii costume (as part of a package), but because said Mii costume was introduced as, essentially a mini version of what the DLC fighter packs were. Sakurai showed off the Mii costume, then highlighted that there was XC2 music and spirits in the game too - even though said other content wasn't DLC. It certainly seemed to me to be a presentation of "here's the XC2 content for this game" in a way analogous to, say, Byleth's presentation being "here's the 3H content for this game".
Where's the XB2 mini stage?
 

cashregister9

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The main thing is that the Sans costume is already available for purchase, and not just as an exclusive bonus like with Rex. From what I can gather, any post-launch content that isn't a fighter is more or less deconfirmed.
I agree, They probably aren't happening, I'm just keeping the possibility in the back of my mind.
 

PeridotGX

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To be honest I think the concept of an Undertale pack died with Sans, at least for this game. Sans came with a a remix of the most iconic Undertale song there is, composed by Toby Fox himself, specifically for Smash. An Undertale pack would either make that redundant or would come off as odd without the new remix of the most Undertale song possible.

On a side note, has it been confirmed that the pass was actually finalized by November? I thought the general assumption around here is that it was planned out around E3, or at least it started around then. Can I have a quick refresher on that topic?
If we get an Undertale rep, I think it's a matter of "The sans costume is selling like crazy and broke the internet add a full Undertale character".

Also, part of Megalovania's thing is how easy it is to meld it into something new while sounding good, they could easily have another Megalovania remix that separates itself from the Sans costume one.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I agree with the sentiment- Nintendo can pick their own characters/IP if the choose to do so. But many of them unfortunately have timing against them. Astral Chain, Ring Fit...both great series that have post-launch spirits, potentially putting them out of contention. Otherwise, it depends on what they feel is worth pushing.
I'd like to point out that the reason for this in both cases is likely due to the fact that Ring Fit Adventure came out after the DLC was locked in, and Astral Chain came out dangerously close to that point (assuming we have a general idea of when that was). They probably both didn't have the chance to properly establish themselves before decisions were made. It's not always a problem as seen with Fire Emblem, but these two games don't have the luxury of being a part of a long running franchise.
 
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Slime Master

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A little slow on the draw here but I figure this is a good PSA so I'll mention it anyway: I don't think it's fair to compare the popularity of first and third party characters, especially not on how continual their popularity has been. First party characters follow a different set of rules for how they're perceived to get in, and while that's still true now, it was a lot more true until pretty recently. For a long time, third party characters needed to be longtime, iconic faces of gaming, and needed to have a strong presence on Nintendo systems to even be considered a possibility.

I would argue this was true up until Joker, because the characters that managed to break that mold all had something that could be considered an "exception:" Snake was a special request, Bayo was "an honorary Nintendo character," Cloud is freakin' Cloud Strife. So if any third party character only got popular recently, it's probably more because no one even thought they were possible than it is "bandwagoning."

I'm saying this from experience too, I bet I'm known as one of the third-party stans around these parts (if I'm known as anything with my post count), but prior to Ult there were very few third party characters I supported and fewer still that I thought were at all possible. Oftentimes I would immediately dismiss any character that wasn't iconic enough, or too recent, or with too weak Nintendo connection. First parties were never really subject to such scrutiny.
 
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