Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Guynamednelson]

Min Min sort of felt like a Byleth "apology" If I'm being honest. A lot of Arms and Xenoblade 2 fans were pissed when Byleth was revealed. It was kind of a slap in the face to them.

I really hope Nintendo learned from that.

Not necessarily. The phase of development in which ARMS and Xenoblade 2 would only receive consolation had finally completed, and they took advantage of that for ARMS and soon XC2

 

[mariofan48]

Because Nintendo is choosing the characters like Sakurai has stated, Several times. Nintendo is probably more business oriented

And yes, Nintendo also knows that Rayman is more requested, not just Sakurai.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I know you love to constantly bring this up, but Sakurai wasn't even doing the gesture correctly. He was sticking his thumb out when it should be in.

How sweet of you to remember what I post!
I bring it up all the time because it is actually the most surprised I have ever been for a Smash trailer.
People don't always put their thumb in when they give the finger. You might be surprised to know, I've been given it a few times.

 

[PacificFun]

[

Again, that literally wouldn't have people be accepting as the issue for them wasn't when Byleth came out, but Byleth being a Fire Emblem character. People would just use a different excuse as again, those Banjo stans who weren't ok with Steve despite saying he'd be fine if he was after Banjo

Min Min was locked in long before Byleth was revealed, not to mention that there's no need to apologize to people who see "They were too new to be added to the base game as they literally didn't exist back when the project planning began" and get angry because DLC doesn't need to take multiple years of development

I'm pretty sure if there wasn't a huge lack of Nintendo news and being the last chatacter at one point in the development plan, Byleth's reception wouldn't have been THAT bad.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Min Min was locked in long before Byleth was revealed, not to mention that there's no need to apologize to people who see "They were too new to be added to the base game as they literally didn't exist back when the project planning began" and get angry because DLC doesn't need to take multiple years of development

I think they'd more be angry because Byleth is also one of those characters that were too new, which means they were eligible for DLC and weren't added anyway despite being implied to be characters that would have been added in the base roster had they existed back then.

How sweet of you to remember what I post!
I bring it up all the time because it is actually the most surprised I have ever been for a Smash trailer.
People don't always put their thumb in when they give the finger. You might be surprised to know, I've been given it a few times.

It doesn't really matter. In context, he was counting. There was no malice there. There was no "screw you". He was just counting.

 

[SKX31]

i see this said all the time but i've seen no evidence going for it

I think this was kind of an assumption built up because SNK is very popular in Latin America. Still, I don't think Sakurai or Nintendo has given an explicit statement on this.

Kotaku wrote a major article that went in depth: Why King Of Fighters Dominates Latin America's Fighting Game Scene. People also likely think of this video.

Although calling Terry just a LatAm pick is severely underselling his (and SNK's) impact in Japan as well as neighboring China. It's saying something that it was a Chinese mobile / browser game dev (together with a Shanghai-based bank) who bought out SNK in 2015... and plastered KOF 97 as the main reason for the buyout.

Sari pointed out something a long time ago:

Heck, a livestream tournament of KoF 97 became the most viewed online fighting gaming event in China history in 2014.

Yes, this was 6 years ago. But I should also point out that the streaming site that hosted the KoF 97 tournament (DouYu) is a major one, and the KoF 97 tournament (500K viewers, which EVO struggles to top on Twitch IIRC) - alongside a lot of other events and streamers - helped build DouYu into a titan in the Chinese internet.

I'm far from as well-versed when it comes to SNK's and KoF's impact in Japan - but rest assured, the fact that SNK continued a long line of KoF games and got several crossovers with Capcoms speak a lot to their impact there, alongside the Neo Geo.

Not necessarily. The phase of development in which ARMS and Xenoblade 2 would only receive consolation had finally completed, and they took advantage of that for ARMS and soon XC2

I can't help but to feel a little bothered about the fact that Nintendo has not committed to either XCX or XC2 yet. It's one of those things where I can't help but to think they would've already...

But I guess we'll only have to see how the rest of FP2 goes really.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Honestly, I think my issue with Fire Emblem is just that we keep being told nonsense from Nintendo as to why it was picked.
You want to promote a new game? Pokemon. It was more relevant at the time and objectively more popular.
Want to promote a game that needs help in Sm4sh? Again, I scream, Chibi-Robo!

Instead, we get a reveal trailer that comes across as mocking, wherein we are told the character will seem redundant "another sword user?" as well as, literally, given the finger. It just comes across as smug.

never seen someone so offended over a video game character getting in Smash that happened 10 months ago

 

[PacificFun]

I think they'd more be angry because Byleth is also one of those characters that were too new, which means they were eligible for DLC and weren't added anyway despite being implied to be characters that would have been added in the base roster had they existed back then.

Exactly this. This is the big kicker for Byleth.

 

[pupNapoleon]

It doesn't really matter. In context, he was counting. There was no malice there. There was no "screw you". He was just counting.

I think that's up for interpretation. I'd argue, he only counted so that he could do that. It's pretty absurd to just start counting in binary in a recorded presentation, it had nothing to do with the character.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I return to say, how dare Nintendo still not add Brewster to Animal Crossing.

Back to lurking...

 

[PacificFun]

Anyway, enough of Byleth. I brought it up like a dumbass lmao.

Fighting Tip: If you're having difficulty fighting a Byleth online, make sure you apply insane amounts of pressure but respect their range.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm not sure if I have asked this, so I will again.
What is the (new) Genre you most want to see get a character in Smash?

 

[PacificFun]

Education (via Carmen Sandiego)

 

[cashregister9]

I'm not sure if I have asked this, so I will again.
What is the (new) Genre you most want to see get a character in Smash?

Visual Novels with either Saber, Phoenix Wright or Sakura

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I'm not sure if I have asked this, so I will again.
What is the (new) Genre you most want to see get a character in Smash?

Survival horror, but my only viable choices are both an Assist Trophy and Spirits respectively so RIP

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm pretty sure if there wasn't a huge lack of Nintendo news and being the last chatacter at one point in the development plan, Byleth's reception wouldn't have been THAT bad.

What lack of Nintendo news? 2019 literally had a new Mario game, a Zelda remake, the new Pokemon games, 5 Smash DLC characters, Luigi's Mansion 3 and Astral Chain just off the top of my head. Byleth's reception literally wouldn't change

I think they'd more be angry because Byleth is also one of those characters that were too new, which means they were eligible for DLC and weren't added anyway despite being implied to be characters that would have been added in the base roster had they existed back then.

If I'm in an argument and I misunderstand someone, why should I be the one demanding an apology? Everyone who thought Sakurai lied about a character being too new stopping them simply lack reading comprehension as Sakurai outright said they were too new for the base game that would end up taking 3 years to develop while ARMS and XB2 were still in pre-production. People not seeing that specific context have no right to claim hypocrisy when the character they're complaining about didn't have the same circumstances.

 

[7NATOR]

I think Rayman should at least be a Costume, especially after the Minecraft costumes

But No I don't expect Rayman in. I think the Ubisoft Costumes were a bad sign honestly, as usually when a New Company is introduced, They come with the Character first, and then the extra content follows after

Granted Ubisoft had Rayman Spirit in Base game, and had a trophy in Smash 4, so it's not their First rodeo...but I'm not feeling him. I think if Rayman was decided for FP2, they probably would have held off the Ubisoft costumes perhaps. But that's just me

 

[SNEKeater]

Random but Rie Sonomura , I'd say the TWEWY thing is actually a new game or something. The official Twitter of Square's Division 1 has now a TWEWY avatar and header.

Also, it's pretty clear that Terry was a Sakurai pick. KoF inspired Smash and Sakurai is a fan of the series.

Not this. Not this again...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I'm not sure if I have asked this, so I will again.
What is the (new) Genre you most want to see get a character in Smash?

Horror Games. But like Resident Evil's chances are dead anyway due to the spirit event, and I don't think we'd get a Silent Hill character.

As for the whole "we can get multiple reps of a genre" thing I do agree with that. If we get Crash, Rayman would likely be next. There are other platforming reps we could get but they each have their own problems.

Spyro - Something from Spyro could come with Crash Bandicoot, and the series is even less popular in Japan than Rayman is because they messed up the localization for Japanese Audiences.

Gex - Heavily successful franchise, but suffers from too much competition within Square Enix. I can't see Gex getting in over Lara Croft, Geno, Sora (That's effectively Disney but they still have to go through Square), 2B, Neku and even Chrono.

Another Sonic rep - Very good chances on this, but suffers from competition with Arle or the slim chance of Sakura happening.

Bubsy -

no

— " GUV " (@dril) September 15, 2008

 

[pupNapoleon]

What lack of Nintendo news? 2019 literally had a new Mario game, a Zelda remake, the new Pokemon games, 5 Smash DLC characters, Luigi's Mansion 3 and Astral Chain just off the top of my head. Byleth's reception literally wouldn't change

Five??
We only got three reveals.

Horror Games. But like Resident Evil's chances are dead anyway due to the spirit event, and I don't think we'd get a Silent Hill character.

As for the whole "we can get multiple reps of a genre" thing I do agree with that. If we get Crash, Rayman would likely be next. There are other platforming reps we could get but they each have their own problems.

Spyro - Something from Spyro could come with Crash Bandicoot, and the series is even less popular in Japan than Rayman is because they messed up the localization for Japanese Audiences.

Gex - Heavily successful franchise, but suffers from too much competition within Square Enix. I can't see Gex getting in over Lara Croft, Geno, Sora (That's effectively Disney but they still have to go through Square), 2B, Neku and even Chrono.

Another Sonic rep - Very good chances on this, but suffers from competition with Arle or the slim chance of Sakura happening.

Bubsy -

no

— " GUV " (@dril) September 15, 2008

What about Frogger??

 

[PLANTMAN]

Assassin's Creed may be the more popular franchise overall but Ezio isn't requested for Smash as much as Rayman is. Why would Sakurai go to Ubisoft to negotiate a character like Ezio when he knows that Rayman is WAY MORE requested? I'm pretty sure Ubisoft also knows that he is more requested for Smash. Rayman also fits the personality of Smash way more.

Cuz assassin's creed is more (of a chad pick) recognizable than rayman and sakurai may find ac more interesting to work on

welcome to the modern smash dlc world.

population: Nintendo of japan

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think that's up for interpretation. I'd argue, he only counted so that he could do that. It's pretty absurd to just start counting in binary in a recorded presentation, it had nothing to do with the character.

I...what? If he was doing it for any petty reason it would just be to flex on people for 1) knowing what counting in binary is and 2) showing off his ability to name all of the Fire Emblem games off the top of his head. Counting on your hands is a pretty common thing to do, and each main Fire Emblem game is numbered (ex. Fire Emblem: Awakening is commonly referred to as FE14). Honestly it sounds like you're looking for things to be offended about here.

Fighting Tip: If you're having difficulty fighting a Byleth online, make sure you apply insane amounts of pressure but respect their range.

Hit them and don't get hit. Got it!

Everyone who thought Sakurai lied about a character being too new stopping them simply reading comprehension as Sakurai outright said they were too new for the base game that would end up taking 3 years to develop while ARMS and XB2 were still in pre-production. People not seeing that specific context have no right to claim hypocrisy when the character they're complaining about didn't have the same circumstances.

Essentially, it went like this:

"We couldn't add these characters to the base roster, but we probably would have if they had existed. Sorry about that."
"Does that mean they can be DLC?"
"lol no. Here's what's probably the most controversial character that also fits this description instead."

There is a right to be upset here. Saying otherwise is just rude.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Five??
We only got three reveals.

While they were revealed the year prior, we still technically had five characters released with added into the mix

 

[mariofan48]

Cuz assassin's creed is more (of a chad pick) recognizable than rayman and sakurai may find ac more interesting to work on

welcome to the modern smash dlc world.

population: Nintendo of japan

Again, I don't disagree that Assassin's Creed is more recognizable, but there are thousands of Rayman fans clammoring for Rayman to be in Smash, where as very little people are requesting an Assassin's Creed rep. If they wanted to please more people overall, they'd put Rayman in over AC, even if AC would bring them more money. But putting AC in will just make all the people who wanted the clearly more requested Ubisoft character upset.

 

[PacificFun]

What lack of Nintendo news? 2019 literally had a new Mario game, a Zelda remake, the new Pokemon games, 5 Smash DLC characters, Luigi's Mansion 3 and Astral Chain just off the top of my head. Byleth's reception literally wouldn't change

2020 was looking reeaaallly dry with that Nintendo September 2019 Direct. Xenoblade 1 Remake was like the biggest announcement and that was a bit odd. Then, the Game Awards came and not only was there no Smash reveal but the only Nintendo reveal was Bravely Defualt 2 (which is 2021 now). So by January, people were ready for that blowout January Direct...and it never came. But then, the Smash reveal was finally on its way! The FINAL chatacter at one point in development. And with zero leaks on them and Sakurai hyping them up a bit in the beginning of the video, it felt like they were going to end off on a bang.

So yeah, Byleth was announced at a "bad" time. Same goes Incinearoar (the G r i n c h) and Min Min (the uhh...happenings in the competitive community). External stuff can definitely affect a character's reveal.

It also doesn't help that they're a shameless advertisement.

Okay, I'm done.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I...what? If he was doing it for any petty reason it would just be to flex on people for 1) knowing what counting in binary is and 2) showing off his ability to name all of the Fire Emblem games off the top of his head. Counting on your hands is a pretty common thing to do, and each main Fire Emblem game is numbered (ex. Fire Emblem: Awakening is commonly referred to as FE14). Honestly it sounds like you're looking for things to be offended about here.

You're welcome to feel it wasn't weird, but I absolutely find it unrelated to anything having to do with the character. Just as I'd find it weird if he started counting out his ABC's in ASL, or if he did a hoe-down to dance off stage because he forgot the words.

 

[Aerospherology]

Cuz assassin's creed is more (of a chad pick) recognizable than rayman and sakurai may find ac more interesting to work on

welcome to the modern smash dlc world.

population: Nintendo of japan

There was already the Altair costume with Min Min. There is no Assassin's Creed fighter, maybe not even a Ubisoft one at all.

 

[pupNapoleon]

While they were revealed the year prior We still technically had five characters released with added into the mix

The context was, very specifically, Smash news. Piranha and Joker were not news.

That said, I agree with Cutie Gwen in her point- 2019 was a Smashing year.

 

[7NATOR]

On a Horror Rep, Hot Take, but Unless it's Nemesis (or Perhaps Mr.X as well) From Resident Evil, I Rather a FNAF Character be the Horror rep if we ever got one

FNAF Appeals to Kids, The Animatronics, the Thing that makes FNAF what it is, would undoubtedly be the pick unlike with Resident Evil where the Human Characters would be Picked. Also It is Iconic Franchise, that's also recent.

Another Sonic rep - Very good chances on this, but suffers from competition with Arle or the slim chance of Sakura happening.

I'll just say this

On my Life, On My soul, If we ever Got Another Sega Character in this Pass. I'm 100% Sure It would be another Sonic Character. I'm not Worrying about Arle or Sakura anymore

 

[Slime Master]

Didn't we know about the second wave of DLC before Byleth? I think "why were they the last character" is a short-sighted complaint to begin with, but if you never thought that at all saying "they were supposed to be the last at one point" is just looking for an excuse to complain. People would have found a different excuse if Byleth had a different FP slot.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Random but Rie Sonomura , I'd say the TWEWY thing is actually a new game or something. The official Twitter of Square's Division 1 has now a TWEWY avatar and header.



Not this. Not this again...

IM STILL EXCITED

 

[mariofan48]

There was already the Altair costume with Min Min. There is no Assassin's Creed fighter, maybe not even a Ubisoft one at all.

1: The Altair and Rabbids costumes were added with Byleth, not Min Min.

2: They can add other Ubisoft Mii Costumes with Rayman, like other Rayman characters like Globox, Barbara, or other Ubisoft properities like Sam Fisher, Watch Dogs, or Far Cry

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You're welcome to feel it wasn't weird, but I absolutely find it unrelated to anything having to do with the character. Just as I'd find it weird if he started counting out his ABC's in ASL, or if he did just did a hoe-down to dance off stage because he forgot the words.

The problem is that it wasn't at all unrelated. As a Fire Emblem character, the Fire Emblem games are related to him, and the counting was related to naming them all. There's nothing else to it.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm not sure if I have asked this, so I will again.
What is the (new) Genre you most want to see get a character in Smash?

Bullet hell. I want to watch the casual and competitive scene alike suffer the wrath of Ultra Instinct Reimu. No, really, that's actually pretty much canon. It's called "Fantasy Nature."

If subgenres count, an action RPG rep would be nice. We've had turn-based RPGs (Or "light RPGs", apparently), strategy RPGs, and real-time RPGs, but I don't feel like Xenoblade fully cuts it. The auto-attack feature means you don't get full control of the characters, and so the gameplay has a different, more tactical feel that my puny button-masher brain can't comprehend. And no, the FF7 spinoffs don't count either, unless Mario is a racing rep now.

If we're not doing thinly-veiled repeats of our most-wanteds, I think an FPS rep and a horror game rep (Survival or action) would be cool. They're pretty big parts of the gaming scene, and I think they'd warrant some representation.

There was already the Altair costume with Min Min. There is no Assassin's Creed fighter, maybe not even a Ubisoft one at all.

Altair's a weird one, seeing as he's not the face of the series; That honor goes to Ezio. I think I heard Altair is more popular in Japan, but I'll have to double-check. Still, I think AC has a bit more wiggle room than most Mii'd series.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Didn't we know about the second wave of DLC before Byleth? I think "why were they the last character" is a short-sighted complaint to begin with, but if you never thought that at all saying "they were supposed to be the last at one point" is just looking for an excuse to complain. People would have found a different excuse if Byleth had a different FP slot.

There were many reasons that Byleth was a shill pick that angered people.

But... your premise is incorrect, regarding the last pick.
Unless you are stating that Byleth was never intended to be last, or that the second pass was always planned (either might be true, we will likely never know), then the last character was intended to be the last character, and Byleth was intended to be the last character.

 

[mariofan48]

Bullet hell. I want to watch the casual and competitive scene alike suffer the wrath of Ultra Instinct Reimu. No, really, that's actually pretty much canon. It's called "Fantasy Nature."

If subgenres count, an action RPG rep would be nice. We've had turn-based RPGs (Or "light RPGs", apparently), strategy RPGs, and real-time RPGs, but I don't feel like Xenoblade fully cuts it. The auto-attack feature means you don't get full control of the characters, and so the gameplay has a different, more tactical feel that my puny button-masher brain can't comprehend. And no, the FF7 spinoffs don't count either, unless Mario is a racing rep now.

If we're not doing thinly-veiled repeats of our most-wanteds, I think an FPS rep and a horror game rep (Survival or action) would be cool. They're pretty big parts of the gaming scene, and I think they'd warrant some representation.

Altair's a weird one, seeing as he's not the face of the series; That honor goes to Ezio. I think I heard Altair is more popular in Japan, but I'll have to double-check. Still, I think AC has a bit more wiggle room than most Mii'd series.

Honestly after Rayman gets in I think Ezio has a really good shot at making it in the next Smash.

 

[pupNapoleon]

The problem is that it wasn't at all unrelated. As a Fire Emblem character, the Fire Emblem games are related to him, and the counting was related to naming them all. There's nothing else to it.

Again, my opinion. There was no reason for him to do this. It's not like he broke out in the Pokerap when Mewtwo was revealed. That would have actually been more relevant.

If we're not doing thinly-veiled repeats of our most-wanteds, I think an FPS rep and a horror game rep (Survival or action) would be cool. They're pretty big parts of the gaming scene, and I think they'd warrant some representation.

I don't tend to play FPS nor Horror, except on rare occasions. I hope my question was not taken as a reason to veil character desires- because I agree with this above statement by you, completely.

 

[PacificFun]

Sakurai and Nintendo(?) wants to give niche Japanese franchises a boost right?

In my dreams.

 

[SNEKeater]

Again, I don't disagree that Assassin's Creed is more recognizable, but there are thousands of Rayman fans clammoring for Rayman to be in Smash, where as very little people are requesting an Assassin's Creed rep. If they wanted to please more people overall, they'd put Rayman in over AC, even if AC would bring them more money. But putting AC in will just make all the people who wanted the clearly more requested Ubisoft character upset.

If anything, Rayman (or almost any other fan request for that matter) would please the hardcore Smash fans.

Not saying Rayman wouldn't please the more casual crowd. But I'm pretty sure an AC character would appeal more to that group. Them not being vocal about it or not being speculating about Smash 24/7 doesn't mean they don't count.

When we talk about the "Smash community" we basically mean the most hardcore and devoted side of Smash players. But I'd say that's roughly 1 million of people. And Smash Ultimate has sold 20 million units.

I'm basically saying this because the assumption of an AC character (or any popular IP that isn't really requested among speculators) would just bring money and nothing more, it isn't true. I mean, it is true to an extent: Assassin's Creed doesn't seem to be really popular in places like Smashboards, but imagine if Nintendo added a poll in Ultimate's menu about which Ubisoft character people would prefer. I'm pretty convinced Assassin's Creed would rank very high.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Essentially, it went like this:

"We couldn't add these characters to the base roster, but we probably would have if they had existed. Sorry about that."
"Does that mean they can be DLC?"
"lol no. Here's what's probably the most controversial character that also fits this description instead."

There is a right to be upset here. Saying otherwise is just rude.

Except Byleth didn't fit the description. The issue wasn't the game not being out by the time stuff was planned, the issue was the game going completely under Sakurai's radar due to not being far enough in development to be known amongst Sakurai's circles. Three Houses though? That game was far enough in development to the point Sakurai knew about it by the time the DLC was getting sorted and it also happened to be far enough in development for Nintendo to know what time it'd end up releasing. Again, one period took a literal 3 year span before finishing. DLC? Outside of Plant and Hero's unique situations due to being planned on the base roster, the DLC wouldn't end up taking nearly as long to finalized, Plant ending up getting saved for DLC instead of being fully scrapped and Hero deliberately being pushed later as to pay less to Sugiyama royalties.

TLDR Saying Spring Man and Rex had the same situation as Byleth is very dishonest.