Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[KillerCage]

New vid from BrawlFan1.

 

[DarthEnderX]

And probably also ditch the "Show me your moves!" taunt for something else.

"Present your maneuvers to me."

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'll only accept it if he plays exactly like (incl. "TORYA!") . If Sakurai and co. really want to integrate the Melee fanbase into Ultimate, they should do that.

In Melee Fox shouts "WANYA" not "TORYA" you false prophet of Fake News.

Anyway, Echoes are the only reasonable chance that franchises as F-Zero and Yoshi's Island get a new character honestly. Star Fox too, in the form of Slippy who could easily be a Falco Echo. I expect that the first underrepresented veteran Nintendo franchises that would get newcomers are Zelda, Kirby and Donkey Kong. Impa, Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong have really set out their mark on their home franchises, and are mainstays and basically all the 4th most important characters of their home franchise.

I expect a few semi clones however, one from Sonic which could be either Tails, Knuckles or Shadow. I hugely prefer the former two.

And with a reboot I do think that Byleth's moveset will be split up, and used to create at least Dimitri and Edelgard out of. Byleth will then probably be based around the Sword of the Creator, and still have range as their main gimmick but more generic Fire Emblem Sword Lord normals.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Anyway, Echoes are the only reasonable chance that franchises as F-Zero and Yoshi's Island get a new character honestly.

Ironically the only viable Yoshi Echo Fighter would be classified as a Super Mario character.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I don't know if this was shared, but I think this video could be bery needed here.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd love Birdo as a Yoshi echo with the main difference being that she drops all of Yoshi's weird stuff like Egg Throw and flutter jump in favor of more normal physics. Only thing that would make it better is if Sakurai drops a 'trans rights' during the reveal.

I could see Kamek making it as a Yoshi newcomer in a Smash 6 if he somehow takes off in relevance between now and then though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd love Birdo as a Yoshi echo with the main difference being that she drops all of Yoshi's weird stuff like Egg Throw and flutter jump in favor of more normal physics. Only thing that would make it better is if Sakurai drops a 'trans rights' during the reveal.

This might not actually be what they'd do, but I imagine her taking on this super sassy persona in the more competitive environment of Super Smash Bros. For example, instead of using the tongue that she doesn't have in her grab, she fake hugs the opponent, and then squeezes the life out of them for the pummel, and has kind of savage looking throws. Things like that could make her pretty entertaining to watch. Perhaps even entertaining enough for people to not consider her a waste of time, even as an Echo Fighter.

It would also help that a new Special Move would be mandatory since she can't do Egg Lay either.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Byleth will then probably be based around the Sword of the Creator

Yes please.

 

[Koopaul]

I'd love Birdo as a Yoshi echo with the main difference being that she drops all of Yoshi's weird stuff like Egg Throw and flutter jump in favor of more normal physics.

Birdo wouldn't be an echo. You'd think by now people would know what an echo fighter is, huh? Echo fighters are basically just alt costumes with a few quirks. Maybe one move is unique at the most. Ditching all that stuff for Birdo goes beyond the echo fighter standard.

 

[Deleted member]

Birdo wouldn't be an echo. You'd think by now people would know what an echo fighter is, huh? Echo fighters are basically just alt costumes with a few quirks. Maybe one move is unique at the most. Ditching all that stuff for Birdo goes beyond the echo fighter standard.

Idk about you but I'd consider 1-2 new moves & a different jump to fall under the echo umbrella. It's pretty much a combination of Ken, Chrom, and Dark Samus.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Birdo wouldn't be an echo. You'd think by now people would know what an echo fighter is, huh? Echo fighters are basically just alt costumes with a few quirks. Maybe one move is unique at the most. Ditching all that stuff for Birdo goes beyond the echo fighter standard.

: “Hello there”

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I could see Kamek making it as a Yoshi newcomer in a Smash 6 if he somehow takes off in relevance between now and then though.

I'm surprised Kamek isn't more discussed honestly. Sure, I'm not expecting him to be a dlc, but he's a cool vilain and he have a lot of appearances. Not only he appear in pretty much (if not every, I'm not sure) Yoshi games, he appear a lot in the Mario party serie and have a big roles in most of the Mario & Luigi games and the modern Paper mario games and also appear in Mario galaxy and New super Mario bros wii. Recently he was made playable in Mario tennis aces. The only thing that he's missing that could boost even more his popularity his that he's still not playable in Mario kart (which is weird when you think about it).

 

[Koopaul]

: “Hello there”

Ken is pretty much an echo fighter in name only. He's an weird exception and I don't expect them to go that far with others. Because they don't.

Another thing that needs to be considered is a characters kit as a whole. If you change how Birdo jumps but keep all the aerial attacks the same, would those attacks even work right? A lot of moves are designed to work with certain fighters in a certain way. It's why most echo fighters stay so close to their counterparts otherwise they'd have to completely rebalance them.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'd be more open to Kamek if Mario didn't already have a bunch of characters I don't care about.

 

[Will]

Another thing that needs to be considered is a characters kit as a whole. If you change how Birdo jumps but keep all the aerial attacks the same, would those attacks even work right? A lot of moves are designed to work with certain fighters in a certain way. It's why most echo fighters stay so close to their counterparts otherwise they'd have to completely rebalance them.

As long as you share the same weight class and and keep a majority of the moves intact then you're a fulfilled Echo in the eyes of Masahiro Sakurai.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The more I think about it, the more Echo Fighters seem to be inherently underwhelming, and that it would be better to have less semi-clones than more Echo Fighters. The reason being is that they seem to be nothing but carbon copies, with the only changes they can receive being minor property changes. Most of them don't have changes that matter casually or otherwise, the ones that do mostly just get rid of a property based gimmick (with one of them changing an Up Special to balance it out).

From Sakurai's comment on Ken, it can be deduced that he's literally only an Echo Fighter for marketing purposes, as he is a semi-clone, which takes more work, and defeats the purpose of an Echo Fighter. I'd also be willing to bet that Chrom is only successful as a meaningful inclusion as an Echo Fighter because Roy's gimmick was a hinderance, not a help, and removing it made him much more powerful, but the worse Up Special (the only move change) was enough to balance this (EDIT: That and Roy's gimmick didn't also make him a bad character despite its nature unlike with Marth). This means that while he is a success story, he's also a special case.

So can there be a happy medium between sticking this closely to the base character while still providing something interesting outside of special cases like this? My guess is no. I think it's telling that Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter despite being even less different than Ken in terms of actual moves. He may only have 2 different attacks, but the large amount of property tweaks that he underwent was enough to push the work load past that of an Echo Fighter.

 

[ahemtoday]

And with a reboot I do think that Byleth's moveset will be split up, and used to create at least Dimitri and Edelgard out of. Byleth will then probably be based around the Sword of the Creator, and still have range as their main gimmick but more generic Fire Emblem Sword Lord normals.

I... don't see this prediction coming true. I'm typically not interested in discussing what's likely, and even I consider this one farfetched.

First of all, there has to be a reboot. This is actually pretty likely, but I want to acknowledge that it may, in fact, not happen. Of course Smash is going to get a sequel, but... well, they might just make a regular sequel and not a reboot.

Second, Byleth has to come back in the reboot, which is not unreasonable considering Three Houses' reception. Honestly, though, I think a lot of the Fire Emblem roster is at risk of the chopping block in a reboot. I mean, people have been complaining about too much Fire Emblem, and now that they're not saved by the Everyone is Here concept, that situation might get... "rectified".

Third, they have to overhaul Byleth. While I expect some more significant moveset changes out of Smash 6 whether it's a "reboot" or not, I think the use of all four physical weapon types in Fire Emblem is Byleth's entire thing in Smash. What's more, this is over a third of his entire moveset getting changed. Will Byleth warrant this much attention in the three years - at absolute minimum - that it'll take until Smash 6?

Fourth, they have decide to add two more Fire Emblem characters from the same game as Byleth. Wait, no, scratch that. At least two more, you said. Wow. Okay, um... Like I said, people have criticized the amount of Fire Emblem characters in the game before, and while they did add Byleth in spite of those criticisms, I feel like having at least two more in the same development cycle will give them a bit of pause. And I know that part of Fire Emblem's overrepresentation problem is because clones are easy to develop, but the thing about that is that these characters would not be clones. Byleth uses Areadbhar for four attacks and Amyr for three. That adds up to - being as generous as possible here - fourteen more attacks for each of these characters. Plus all their other animations. At that point, I think each one is basically a full character's worth of dev time. I don't even know where to begin with that.

 

[Will]

And with a reboot I do think that Byleth's moveset will be split up, and used to create at least Dimitri and Edelgard out of. Byleth will then probably be based around the Sword of the Creator, and still have range as their main gimmick but more generic Fire Emblem Sword Lord normals.

Even if this wack theory was true, I sense some heavy anti-Claude bias here...

 

[Idon]

I... don't see this prediction coming true. I'm typically not interested in discussing what's likely, and even I consider this one farfetched.

First of all, there has to be a reboot. This is actually pretty likely, but I want to acknowledge that it may, in fact, not happen. Of course Smash is going to get a sequel, but... well, they might just make a regular sequel and not a reboot.

Second, Byleth has to come back in the reboot, which is not unreasonable considering Three Houses' reception. Honestly, though, I think a lot of the Fire Emblem roster is at risk of the chopping block in a reboot. I mean, people have been complaining about too much Fire Emblem, and now that they're not saved by the Everyone is Here concept, that situation might get... "rectified".

Third, they have to overhaul Byleth. While I expect some more significant moveset changes out of Smash 6 whether it's a "reboot" or not, I think the use of all four physical weapon types in Fire Emblem is Byleth's entire thing in Smash. What's more, this is over a third of his entire moveset getting changed. Will Byleth warrant this much attention in the three years - at absolute minimum - that it'll take until Smash 6?

Fourth, they have decide to add two more Fire Emblem characters from the same game as Byleth. Wait, no, scratch that. At least two more, you said. Wow. Okay, um... Like I said, people have criticized the amount of Fire Emblem characters in the game before, and while they did add Byleth in spite of those criticisms, I feel like having at least two more in the same development cycle will give them a bit of pause. And I know that part of Fire Emblem's overrepresentation problem is because clones are easy to develop, but the thing about that is that these characters would not be clones. Byleth uses Areadbhar for four attacks and Amyr for three. That adds up to - being as generous as possible here - fourteen more attacks for each of these characters. Plus all their other animations. At that point, I think each one is basically a full character's worth of dev time. I don't even know where to begin with that.

Yeah whether Byleth stays or goes, that idea's ****ing insane.
And like, I'm saying this as the owner of the Dimitri support thread lol.

It's either Byleth returns or Edelgard replaces him wholesale (probably not even using his slow exaggerated Aymr swings if they opt for her popular young version)

Personally, my last FE hope at this point is some major reevaluation of the FE roster leading to the adddition of Lyn. That said, I do like the idea of a SotC styled moveset, but you know how Sakurai feels about movset revamps.

 

[Will]

Personally, my last FE hope at this point is some major reevaluation of the FE roster leading to the adddition of Lyn

The ideal Fire Emblem roster imo when it comes to highlighting the series at its best is four characters:

Marth - Original boi, poster boi, nuff said

Hector Lyn - FE7 was the landmark of Fire Emblem releasing internationally

Robin - FE13 revived the ****ing series

Byleth - The new kid in town

That's it, just those four. No one else. You don't even need Byleth, but Smash is good advertisement and Three Houses was great unlike the contempt and disgust Corrin gave me based on what Fates had.

 

[Goombaic]

The best shot for the Three Houses lords in the future is that they're full-out Byleth echoes, and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work out because none of them can use the Sword of the Creator as a whip except maybe Edelgard? I never gave the relics to characters they weren't meant for other than Thunderbrand and Thyrsus so I don't know if that's true.

 

[SharkLord]

The ideal Fire Emblem roster imo when it comes to highlighting the series at its best is four characters:

Marth - Original boi, poster boi, nuff said

Hector Lyn - FE7 was the landmark of Fire Emblem releasing internationally

Robin - FE13 revived the ****ing series

Byleth - The new kid in town

That's it, just those four. No one else. You don't even need Byleth, but Smash is good advertisement and Three Houses was great unlike the contempt and disgust Corrin gave me based on what Fates had.

I'd also add in Ike, since he's incredibly popular and Path of Radiance is held in high regard. Also, a greatsword user is always nice to have.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Anyway, Echoes are the only reasonable chance that franchises as F-Zero and Yoshi's Island get a new character honestly. Star Fox too, in the form of Slippy who could easily be a Falco Echo.

When you used to be one of the most highly requested characters for Brawl and Smash 4 but then your franchise abandons you in favor of endless reboots and hollow gimmicks (which pretty much kills it), and your support base for Smash drops as a result, despite the fact that you could be the first entirely unique character for your franchise since Fox.

 

[Will]

I'd also add in Ike, since he's incredibly popular and Path of Radiance is held in high regard. Also, a greatsword user is always nice to have.

Yeah, I've considered Ike. He is a unique character, no doubt. And the Tellius Saga is a fantastic duology.

But those sales, man. I'd love to throw Leif in there but I knew that him nor Ike were the financial greatness peaks of the series, which was my aim.

 

[cashregister9]

I just want Lucina but unique instead of a clone.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Even with what I've previously said about Echo Fighters though, I do still think that Birdo could theoretically be one if they wanted to add her, as the only moves she can't do are Yoshi's grab, and Yoshi's Egg Lay. So long as you could replace Egg Lay with something that doesn't break the moveset (giving Yoshi a normal grab is probably not going to affect much), Birdo could be added with about as much effort as Chrom.

Would that be worth it? Maybe. A completely new Neutral Special could pretty easily give you a reason to pick one over the other, especially since Egg Lay is just...meh. However, I kind of feel like she'd be given her egg shot from Super Mario Bros. 2, which means we would then have Yoshi Bellmont, and that sounds terrifying.

 

[ahemtoday]

The ideal Fire Emblem roster imo when it comes to highlighting the series at its best is four characters:

Marth - Original boi, poster boi, nuff said

Hector Lyn - FE7 was the landmark of Fire Emblem releasing internationally

Robin - FE13 revived the ****ing series

Byleth - The new kid in town

That's it, just those four. No one else. You don't even need Byleth, but Smash is good advertisement and Three Houses was great unlike the contempt and disgust Corrin gave me based on what Fates had.

As someone not really into Fire Emblem... yeah, this'd be pretty good. The biggest holes here are no Ike - he isn't that important but is apparently the most popular male character, and also he's been in since FE had two unique characters so it's a little weird without him but not overly so - and no dragons, which is probably just my overwhelming bias toward dragons talking.

Do not take that dragon thing to mean I want Corrin in, though. They can stay out.

 

[Will]

I don't understand everyone wanting to replace Byleth with another 3H Lord.

It's like trying to replace Marth with Caeda, or Ike with Micaiah, or Chrom with Lucin- oh right that actually happened once

 

[Idon]

The ideal Fire Emblem roster imo when it comes to highlighting the series at its best is four characters:

Marth - Original boi, poster boi, nuff said

Hector Lyn - FE7 was the landmark of Fire Emblem releasing internationally

Robin - FE13 revived the ****ing series

Byleth - The new kid in town

That's it, just those four. No one else. You don't even need Byleth, but Smash is good advertisement and Three Houses was great unlike the contempt and disgust Corrin gave me based on what Fates had.

From a representation perspective, I'd agree. This covers pretty much all the bases you'd need for a pretty good spread.

If that were to be the case though, for DLC I definitely think they'd still add Ike as he occupies that sweetspot between being massively popular in the smash sphere and also popular within FE circles.

I don't understand everyone wanting to replace Byleth with another 3H Lord.

It's like trying to replace Marth with Caeda, or Ike with Micaiah, or Chrom with Lucin- oh right that actually happened once

Because the other FE3H Lords absolutely eclipse Byleth in popularity. Byleth really only exists as a lens from which to view other characters' growth.

 

[Will]

The biggest holes here are no Ike - he isn't that important but is apparently the most popular male character, and also he's been in since FE had two unique characters so it's a little weird without him but not overly so - and no dragons, which is probably just my overwhelming bias toward dragons talking.

Ike has popularity but the goal of my list was overall success and landmarks within the series. While Ike is popular and both of his games are in the Top 5 of the entire franchise, his duology had no significant impact on the series. He's just a popular want like how people kept chanting Roy's our Boy for Smash 4 DLC before he was actually revealed. And what did Roy bring to the table? Nothing, he's literally a ****ty Lord in his own game.

From a representation perspective, I'd agree. This covers pretty much all the bases you'd need for a pretty good spread.

If that were to be the case though, for DLC I definitely think they'd still add Ike as he occupies that sweetspot between being massively popular in the smash sphere and also popular within FE circles.

Oh **** yeah dude that was my plan, Ike is easy DLC bait for being the most popular character.

 

[SharkLord]

As someone not really into Fire Emblem... yeah, this'd be pretty good. The biggest holes here are no Ike - he isn't that important but is apparently the most popular male character, and also he's been in since FE had two unique characters so it's a little weird without him but not overly so - and no dragons, which is probably just my overwhelming bias toward dragons talking.

Do not take that dragon thing to mean I want Corrin in, though. They can stay out.

I have a proposition for you

Spoiler

Because the other FE3H Lords absolutely eclipse Byleth in popularity. Byleth really only exists as a lens from which to view other characters' growth.

The problem with that is that they're all popular, but you're forced to choose between neglecting one portion of the fanbase or overrepresenting Three Houses. I stand by the belief that Byleth is the best choice for Three Houses because they're the neutral option, so you're not favoring one path over the other.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Even if this wack theory was true, I sense some heavy anti-Claude bias here...

imagine hating Claude

Couldnt be me

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The problem with that is that they're all popular, but you're forced to choose between neglecting one portion of the fanbase or overrepresenting Three Houses. I stand by the belief that Byleth is the best choice for Three Houses because they're the neutral option, so you're not favoring one path over the other.

I still think Byleth should have had a unit management mechanic using the three house leaders. Would've been way better than just yoinking their weapons.

 

[SharkLord]

I still think Byleth should have had a unit management mechanic using the three house leaders. Would've been way better than just yoinking their weapons.

I personally like the idea of a weapon swap mechanic, if only because then we wouldn't need to squeeze in a separate axe and lance (And possibly bow) fighter. Since it might be tricky to balance four movesets in one, perhaps we could give the neutral special more possible abilities. Keep the specials the same between weapons as well; Switch between them with the shield special.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

My ideal rosters at 40 and 50 characters have Ike, Ephraim, Hector, and Lyn.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Yeah I also think that adding more three houses lord is a bad idea, especially considering that by the time the next Smash bros is coming (I'm assuming this might be in like 5 years or so), Fire emblem will most likely have at least one more recent games. While Three houses is important, I don't see the point of double dipping in that game, maybe the next Fire emblem main character will be super cool and will make a great candidate.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If there are any Fire Emblem games I would add more than one character from (besides Fire Emblem: Awakening since uh...you know), it'd be Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon. Mostly because of Caeda and Tiki, who are probably the most important characters in the series that aren't protagonists.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, I've considered Ike. He is a unique character, no doubt. And the Tellius Saga is a fantastic duology.

But those sales, man. I'd love to throw Leif in there but I knew that him nor Ike were the financial greatness peaks of the series, which was my aim.

If sales really were a major argument, the only FE characters with a realistic shot would be the Awakening trio, Corrin and Byleth.

In Fire Emblem's entire 30-year history, the only games that sold more than a million units are Awakening, Fates and Three Houses.

 

[Deleted member]

If sales really were a major argument, the only FE characters with a realistic shot would be the Awakening trio, Corrin and Byleth.

In Fire Emblem's entire 30-year history, the only games that sold more than a million units are Awakening, Fates and Three Houses.

You're forgetting a certain someone...

I'll open the way!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You're forgetting a certain someone...

I'll open the way!

Does it really count when the game is free-to-start?