Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Guynamednelson]

Not true. A skilled Roy could beat any Fox.

Indeed. However, the mysterious skilled Roy that can beat any Fox is in a different game. And speaks English. And only fights Foxes that can correctly say "Mission Complete".

 

[Captain Shwampy]

This isn't directly related to Smash, but I have a question for Sega fans: how would this affect the company?

Very sad news. This article says Sega-Sammy will be selling all of their arcade operations in Japan and leaving the arcade business by the end of 2020. https://t.co/4776CBzzqm

— Team Spooky (@teamspooky) November 4, 2020

I doubt this would drive them bankrupt or anything (they survived the Dreamcast bombing), but given how important arcades have been for the company, I wanted to make sure.

Though I guess it gives us an excuse to talk about potential Sega reps again...

Basically those iconic SEGA arcade locations allover japan arent fully owned by SEGA anymore. Genda has 85% share of them now.
Im assuming they'll still keep the SEGA branding but im not sure either way this doesnt effect the gaming divisions. It is heartbreaking that sega is loosing thier arcade business though but I cant blame them due to that virus.

 

[pupNapoleon]

"It sold well so you're criticisms are invalid" is a terrible argument. Even the best games can have criticisms, and Pokémon Sword and Pokémon Shield have a ton of major criticisms. Even if it turns out that the majority of people don't really mind these criticisms, it doesn't mean they don't exist or matter.

Is it actually a terrible argument? That's half the reason that people not fond of Steve on here seem to accept him, due to his sales.

Regardless, I don't think I said that it is fine because it sold well. I think I made the point that it has earned its right to get half the roster if it wants. (Obviously that is ridiculous, but since you're misquoting me, I might as well give you something to quote accurately). I also made the statement that if this board supports characters that "make Smash Bros more of a draw," then Pokemon is the only Nintendo franchise needed.

Either way, my initial point was that I read this thread frequently- and it seems to usually be talking about an RPG (or whatever rumor happened in the last several hours- which is the part I enjoy, but we don't get separate threads).

 

[ahemtoday]

I've been thinking about something. Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo were all pretty well-requested characters back in the Brawl days, right? The thing about that is, I could actually see their Ultimate movesets fitting in Brawl. I mean, they do have a couple of unusual complicated moves, but like... Melee gave us Judge, and Brawl had Olimar in it. We may not have had stuff like Hero or Steve back then, but stuff could get way crazier than what the Ult characters I mentioned have.

What I'm leading up to with this is: I wonder if that was deliberate? Like, as a way to get their movesets to reflect that they've been around and requested for a while. That's kind of a fun idea.

But then again, Incineroar, Piranha Plant, and Byleth also have what I would consider "Brawl-y" movesets, and they weren't popular requests at the time. This probably isn't true at all, actually.

 

[Flik]

It's one of the reasons why Robin is the best FE character imo. Strategic gameplay, brings several FE mechanics with him and manages to not make it feel like his moveset is forced.

Hot take: robin's creation has indirectly screwed up the FE characters after him: Without Chrom in Smash 4 (with an unique moveset, obviously*), Lucina became a clone of a character she had never met in life whose fighting styles is nothing like hers. since Roy kinda lost his moveset to Lucina (he was the original Marth clone, after all), he got a revamp moveset that, acording to some people, doesn't match the way he fights in his game. I don't know if people would hate on Byleth any less if they were number 7 so whatever, maybe the "representation" would be any more unique without him, but at least the other characters would be more faithful to their games.

*Although I wouln't look past Sakurai still not looking past his "Marth+Ike" mentality.

 

[SharkLord]

Though I guess it gives us an excuse to talk about potential Sega reps again...

From what I can gather, the frontrunners go something like this:
Kiryu-The easy path. Massive in Japan, rapidly gaining in the West, flagship series for Sega. However, he's also A: From a mature series, and B: not usually on Nintendo systems, making him somewhat of a Joker situation but with more legacy.

Arle-A more Nintendo-y alternative to Kiryu, so to speak. Is big in Japan, is gaining in the West, with the added bonus of being fairly friendly towards Nintendo systems. I also hear she's a popular request in Japan, but I'll have to double-check.

Sakura-The Japan-appeal character. Absolutely everywhere in Japan (Anime, novels, stage shows, etc.), the series ranked the highest in both a "Franchise revival" poll and a general "Franchise investment" poll at it's low point, and is generally beloved by the Japanese. In the West? ...Not so much. I mean, the series is at least making an effort nowadays, but it's still a pretty big barricade. It all depends on just how focused on Japan Nintendo wants a character to be.

But hey, at least she's in a better spot than someone like Takamaru

I think Axel could be added to the list as a West-appeal character, but I don't know enough to say, so yeah...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Is it? That's half the reason that people not fond of Steve on here seem to accept him, due to his sales.

Not due to Minecraft's sales, but its impact. Also Minecraft doesn't have 10 characters already.

Regardless, I don't think I said that it is fine because it sold well. I think I made the point that it has earned its right to get half the roster if it wants. (Obviously that is ridiculous, but since you're misquoting me, I might as well give you something to quote accurately). I also made the statement that if this board supports characters that "make Smash Bros more of a draw," then Pokemon is the only Nintendo franchise needed.

In response to "Why are people angry with Pokémon, but perfectly fine with other RPGs", I said it was because people didn't want another Pokémon, but felt it was kind of inevitable on top of the series's disappointing decisions as of late. So how is the response of "Well it sold well so you're on the wrong side of history" meant to be taken any other way than "it's fine because it sold well"?

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I do find it interesting how different genres of games appeal to players of specific other games. Players of most traditional fighting games tend to outright dislike RPGs, but often have one or two they really adore. The ones who play the games seriously also tend to not care about the lore in fighting games at all (could be a gross overgeneralization, but that's what I've observed in tournaments and streams). Smash players, on the other hand, often have an affinity for the RPG genre to the point where the majority of pro players at certain invitationals will have an RPG as their favorite game ever (probably outside of Smash). I don't know why that is. It might be the lower bar to playing Smash, or it could be the more sportlike mentality fostered by traditional fighting games. Obviously not everyone fits into this, it's just a generalization of someone who tends to be on the fringe of both groups.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

From what I can gather, the frontrunners go something like this:
Kiryu-The easy path. Massive in Japan, rapidly gaining in the West, flagship series for Sega. However, he's also A: From a mature series, and B: not usually on Nintendo systems, making him somewhat of a Joker situation but with more legacy.

Arle-A more Nintendo-y alternative to Kiryu, so to speak. Is big in Japan, is gaining in the West, with the added bonus of being fairly friendly towards Nintendo systems. I also hear she's a popular request in Japan, but I'll have to double-check.

Sakura-The Japan-appeal character. Absolutely everywhere in Japan (Anime, novels, stage shows, etc.), the series ranked the highest in both a "Franchise revival" poll and a general "Franchise investment" poll at it's low point, and is generally beloved by the Japanese. In the West? ...Not so much. I mean, the series is at least making an effort nowadays, but it's still a pretty big barricade. It all depends on just how focused on Japan Nintendo wants a character to be.

But hey, at least she's in a better spot than someone like Takamaru

I think Axel could be added to the list as a West-appeal character, but I don't know enough to say, so yeah...

Phanatsy star would be a front runner but nintendo is making the choices here

 

[MooMew64]

Is it? That's half the reason that people not fond of Steve on here seem to accept him, due to his sales.

Regardless, I don't think I said that it is fine because it sold well. I think I made the point that it has earned its right to get half the roster if it wants. (Obviously that is ridiculous, but since you're misquoting me, I might as well give you something to quote accurately). I also made the statement that if this board supports characters that "make Smash Bros more of a draw," then Pokemon is the only Nintendo franchise needed.

Either way, my initial point was that I read this thread frequently- and it seems to usually be talking about an RPG (or whatever rumor happened in the last several hours- which is the part I enjoy, but we don't get separate threads).

Uh...Why is that quote in your post saying it's from me? I didn't post that message.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Hot take: robin's creation has indirectly screwed up the FE characters after him: Without Chrom in Smash 4 (with an unique moveset, obviously*), Lucina became a clone of a character she had never met in life whose fighting styles is nothing like hers. since Roy kinda lost his moveset to Lucina (he was the original Marth clone, after all), he got a revamp moveset that, acording to some people, doesn't match the way he fights in his game. I don't know if people would hate on Byleth any less if they were number 7 so whatever, maybe the "representation" would be any more unique without him, but at least the other characters would be more faithful to their games.

*Although I wouln't look past Sakurai still not looking past his "Marth+Ike" mentality.

Then again, Sakurai also initially dismissed Chrom for "lacking unique characteristics" and added Lucina (which is ironic because in the same interview he says that she almost ended up as a costume for Marth and, imho, is the least interesting of the four), only to add Chrom in the very next game due to fan demand.

So basically, because Sakurai never revamps movesets beyond a few tweaks, these characters got stuck with movesets that either didn't fit them all the way or were already similar to preexisting characters - from completely different games, might I add. Which is a shame, really.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Then again, Sakurai also initially dismissed Chrom for "lacking unique characteristics" and added Lucina (which is ironic because in the same interview he says that she almost ended up as a costume for Marth and, imho, is the least interesting of the four), only to add Chrom in the very next game due to fan demand.

So basically, because Sakurai never revamps movesets beyond a few tweaks, these characters got stuck with movesets that either didn't fit them all the way or were already similar to preexisting characters - from completely different games, might I add. Which is a shame, really.

Yeah, I'd say it's an issue of basing characters off of each other that really shouldn't be based off each other rather than anything Robin did. It's most noticeable with the Fire Emblem characters, as it combined with other issues is what causes most of the vitriol surrounding it, but it can also be seen in characters like Ganondorf, and imo, Bowser Jr., with each character involved becoming more generic so they can all fit with the same animations.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is that why Pokemon is the biggest media franchise that has ever existed?

I'm too invested to stop and little kids are too stupid to know better. Don't mean they aren't still constantly ****ing up.

 

[Idon]

Truly, we live in a society.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Yeah, I'd say it's an issue of basing characters off of each other that really shouldn't be based off each other rather than anything Robin did. It's most noticeable with the Fire Emblem characters, as it combined with other issues is what causes most of the vitriol surrounding it, but it can also be seen in characters like Ganondorf, and imo, Bowser Jr., with each character involved becoming more generic so they can all fit with the same animations.

Yup, basically, it's a decision that some people praise now that the characters are in, but just watch what happens every time someone suggests "X FE character could be an echo of Marth" here.

Aside from the examples you mentioned, it also reminds me of how Dark Samus is less accurate because of Samus' moveset being completely different from what she plays like in Metroid or like people were suggesting some of the ARMS cast could just be alts of each other.

 

[7NATOR]

Smash Translations of every character varies

Some characters will pretty much almost a straight port of the character from their Original Games, Some Characters will get more Liberties taken to fit the character more into Smash, And in the cases of Clones, Some characters get made in the Image of the other characters

Honestly, While Ganondorf suffers from the latter point, I still think his Essence and character is still kept in tact, even if he's still based on Falcon some. Chrom and Lucina do have issues in that Lucina is supposed to Fight like Chrom, but she doesn't. Sakurai said Chrom fought like a Mix of Ike and Marth, and Being Roy's Echo Fighter, Chrom does do that sort of thing, even if his animations share alot with roy, which share alot with Marth

I don't agree with every Decision made in a characters movesets, but I will say that none of the Characters are Completely unfaithfully.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Not due to Minecraft's sales, but its impact. Also Minecraft doesn't have 10 characters already.

I think that is overall just incorrect; the statement I made is about how Steve/Minecraft is frequently quoted as being 'from the highest selling game of all time.' Not about impact.

In response to "Why are people angry with Pokémon, but perfectly fine with other RPGs", I said it was because people didn't want another Pokémon, but felt it was kind of inevitable on top of the series's disappointing decisions as of late. So how is the response of "Well it sold well so you're on the wrong side of history" meant to be taken any other way than "it's fine because it sold well"?

That, again, isn't at all what I said. It was a continuation of several posts I made in the two pages beforehand, where I stated this thread is wrong just about always.

Also... I didn't ask why "are people angry with Pokemon," I said this thread. I think that's clearly incorrect to say people are angry with Pokemon, and for this, yes, I will go to sales (though if you prefer, we can go into the fact that it's a literally defined phenonemon which is studied for its economic, psychologic, and sociologic impact). At best I think you can state that the vocal internet has some disparity with Pokemon, and that it isn't the majority.

 

[Curious Villager]

I do find it interesting how different genres of games appeal to players of specific other games. Players of most traditional fighting games tend to outright dislike RPGs, but often have one or two they really adore. The ones who play the games seriously also tend to not care about the lore in fighting games at all (could be a gross overgeneralization, but that's what I've observed in tournaments and streams). Smash players, on the other hand, often have an affinity for the RPG genre to the point where the majority of pro players at certain invitationals will have an RPG as their favorite game ever (probably outside of Smash). I don't know why that is. It might be the lower bar to playing Smash, or it could be the more sportlike mentality fostered by traditional fighting games. Obviously not everyone fits into this, it's just a generalization of someone who tends to be on the fringe of both groups.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Partly might be because Smash in of itself brings in a bunch of RPG characters, which would likely attract a lot of RPG fans I suppose.

()()

Might be the genre with the most playable characters, or maybe at least second most behind platformer characters...

 

[Lamperouge]

I ****ing love RPGs so Nintendo can put in as many characters from that genre if they want.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Partly might be because Smash in of itself brings in a bunch of RPG characters, which would likely attract a lot of RPG fans I suppose...

()()

Might be the genre with the most playable characters, or maybe at least second most behind platformer characters...

Yeah platformers have more

This doesn't count the 7 Koopalings and I'm keeping Dark Samus out as her games were FPS only, though you can argue Link can be on here because of Zelda 2 and you can argue Palutena can get cut from the list

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yup, basically, it's a decision that some people praise now that the characters are in, but just watch what happens every time someone suggests "X FE character could be an echo of Marth" here.

Aside from the examples you mentioned, it also reminds me of how Dark Samus is less accurate because of Samus' moveset being completely different from what she plays like in Metroid or like people were suggesting some of the ARMS cast could just be alts of each other.

The worst part is, a good handful of the characters with this issue are pretty darn close to being a good representation of themselves; You just have to replace the stuff they can't do with stuff they can and they'll feel much better. For example, it makes total sense to base Daisy off of Peach, but it makes no sense that she can float given that her established movement mechanic is something else, or that she uses Toads given that there are no Toads in Sarasaland.

That, again, isn't at all what I said. It was a continuation of several posts I made in the two pages beforehand, where I stated this thread is wrong just about always.

That may have been you're intent, but that's not what happened in execution. The question I responded to was completely unrelated to this thread making incorrect guesses on DLC characters, so I didn't give an answer in that context. It didn't make any sense to do so. The way you added it into your response came across as you telling me that I'm incorrect in the observations that I've made simply because Pokémon is the biggest media franchise of all time.

Also... I didn't ask why "people" dislike Pokemon. I think that's clearly incorrect, and for this, yes, I will go to sales (though if you prefer, we can go into the fact that it's a literally defined phenonemon which is studied for its economic, psychologic, and sociologic impact). I said, "this thread."

And by "people" I meant "this thread".

This doesn't count the 7 Koopalings and I'm keeping Dark Samus out as her games were FPS only, though you can argue Link can be on here because of Zelda 2 and you can argue Palutena can get cut from the list

Wario should be taken off of the list because "what's a Wario Land?".

 

[Curious Villager]

Yeah platformers have more

This doesn't count the 7 Koopalings and I'm keeping Dark Samus out as her games were FPS only, though you can argue Link can be on here because of Zelda 2 and you can argue Palutena can get cut from the list

Yeah I mainly stuck with characters primarily known for RPG's otherwise I probably would have included the Mario characters as well due to the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games and all...

But yeah. Platformers and RPG's pretty much have the highest count.

 

[Munchi]

I ****ing love RPGs so Nintendo can put in as many characters from that genre if they want.

Same

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah I mainly stuck with characters primarily known for RPG's otherwise I probably would have included the Mario characters as well due to the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games and all...

But yeah. Platformers and RPG's pretty much have the highest count.

And then there's puzzle, who has technically not 0.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm too invested to stop and little kids are too stupid to know better. Don't mean they aren't still constantly ****ing up.

I am actually pretty shocked. I remember your posts as being from games that were 3 decades old (including that fighters pass you made).
Pokemon is much more than its main game. Pokemon GO had its most successful year yet, earning 1billion.

(fun fact, I still havnt played either Pokemon DLC I prebought, and havnt even gotten to post game in SwSh)

 

[Koopaul]

Bah I don't really care what genre gets in. It's more about the individual game and character. One of the reasons I get a little worried about RPG characters is because they usually tend to be the same kind of male sword wielding bishounen types. If there's an RPG character that's elderly and carries a bazooka, then you got my interest.

 

[Curious Villager]

And then there's puzzle, who has technically not 0.

One day, Arle and Layton get to throw their hats into the ring too.

One day...

 

[SKX31]

Indeed. However, the mysterious skilled Roy that can beat any Fox is in a different game. And speaks English. And only fights Foxes that can correctly say "Mission Complete".

Hey, there is indeed a skilled who can beat any Fox. He speaks English too. Just don't test him.

And then there's puzzle, who has technically not 0.

It is a puzzle.

For Sakurai.

MLG Airhorn.

I mean was outright stronger than since Sakurai and HAL didn't have the time to code in most of Doc's weaknesses. Since Doc returned in Smash 4, he's been overshadowed by Mario since now Mario has a combo game and Doc kinda... uhm, doesn't? So now Doc's kinda in this weird limbo.

Yeah platformers have more

This doesn't count the 7 Koopalings and I'm keeping Dark Samus out as her games were FPS only, though you can argue Link can be on here because of Zelda 2 and you can argue Palutena can get cut from the list

That got me thinking - if genres such as FPSes had a similar number of reps and RPGs / Platformers... man the CSS would look weird as ****.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Cut Sakurai already.

 

[SharkLord]

Bah I don't really care what genre gets in. It's more about the individual game and character. One of the reasons I get a little worried about RPG characters is because they usually tend to be the same kind of male sword wielding bishounen types. If there's an RPG character that's elderly and carries a bazooka, then you got my interest.

And that's why we have North American barbarian Adol

 

[Guynamednelson]

I ****ing love RPGs so Nintendo can put in as many characters from that genre if they want.

Don't come crying when it's another Pokemon then.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

And that's why we have North American barbarian Adol

Are you sure that's not just Simon with a shirt?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Partly might be because Smash in of itself brings in a bunch of RPG characters, which would likely attract a lot of RPG fans I suppose...

()()

Might be the genre with the most playable characters, or maybe at least second most behind platformer characters...

Yeah platformers have more

This doesn't count the 7 Koopalings and I'm keeping Dark Samus out as her games were FPS only, though you can argue Link can be on here because of Zelda 2 and you can argue Palutena can get cut from the list

I don't really consider Mario a platformer nor Pokemon an RPG (I know what my recent posts were) at heart. Both are just franchises at this point, which have explored almost every arena.

That said.... you counted Kid Icarus, the Metroidvanias, and even WarioWare-focused Wario. That seems farfetched to me.


(Also it's a platform fighter. I'd think we would have mostly platform and fighting game characters. This makes me chuckle).

 

[Lamperouge]

Don't come crying when it's another Pokemon then.

Alright, few exceptions.

 

[Munchi]

Hey, there is indeed a skilled who can beat any Fox. He speaks English too. Just don't test him.



It is a puzzle.

For Sakurai.

MLG Airhorn.

I mean was outright stronger than since Sakurai and HAL didn't have the time to code in most of Doc's weaknesses. Since Doc returned in Smash 4, he's been overshadowed by Mario since now Mario has a combo game and Doc kinda... uhm, doesn't? So now Doc's kinda in this weird limbo.



That got me thinking - if genres such as FPSes had a similar number of reps and RPGs / Platformers... man the CSS would look weird as ****.

Doc has a combo game but it is much inferior to Mario's, although that is if his smash attacks have the power of a heavyweight with the speed of Mario

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't really consider Mario a platformer nor Pokemon an RPG (I know what my recent posts were) at heart. Both are just franchises at this point, which have explored almost every arena.

That said.... you counted Kid Icarus, the Metroidvanias, and even WarioWare-focused Wario. That seems farfetched to me.


(Also it's a platform fighter. I'd think we would have mostly platform and fighting game characters. This makes me chuckle).

Mario and Pokemon are primarily platformers and RPGs. Just because they don't exclusively do 1 thing doesn't mean that the majority of their games aren't platformers and RPGs.

The original Kid Icarus is a platformer, which is why I counted Pit and Palu but not Dark Pit. I can't tell you what the second game was, but Sakurai seemingly doesn't know what it is either. Metroid games are still platformers as you need to jump around constantly, they just have a different design philosophy than traditional platformers. Wario was included because he started out with platformers and while he focuses on the minigame stuff, that doesn't erase Wario Land or anything

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Since Doc returned in Smash 4, he's been overshadowed by Mario since now Mario has a combo game and Doc kinda... uhm, doesn't? So now Doc's kinda in this weird limbo.

Sakurai: "Let's take Mario, and give him a worse recovery, and a slow speed."

"In exchange, his attacks will be much more powerful..."

"...ultimately lowering his overall damage output."

"wait...ultimately lowering his overall damage output?"

I can't tell you what the second game was, but Sakurai seemingly doesn't know what it is either.

On Rails/3rd Person Shooter?

 

[Ivander]

I ****ing love RPGs so Nintendo can put in as many characters from that genre if they want.

Don't come crying when it's another Pokemon then.

Alright, few exceptions.

"No Fear"
Pokemon character
"One Fear"

 

[pupNapoleon]

That may have been you're intent, but that's not what happened in execution. The question I responded to was completely unrelated to this thread making incorrect guesses on DLC characters, so I didn't give an answer in that context. It didn't make any sense to do so. The way you added it into your response came across as you telling me that I'm incorrect in the observations that I've made simply because Pokémon is the biggest media franchise of all time.

I, quite frankly, do not understand what you are intending to communicate with this.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I, quite frankly, do not understand what you are intending to communicate with this.

Let's just drop it then. I don't think there's any salvaging the conversation due to miscommunication on both sides.