Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[7NATOR]

Smash Bros is a game about Playing your Favorite Characaters to Smash other Characters, so yeah good amount of people only Accept Playable status for their Characters

I've noticed this before, but the positive reactions tend to come from newcomer Mii Costumes/Assists (introduced in that game) while the negative ones come from veteran ones (returning from previous games), with a few exceptions. People were raving when Sans and Cuphead got Miis and Shovel Knight got an Assist. Less so when Waluigi/Isaac/Shadow got Assist'd and Heihachi got Mii'd.

I think it's because the Veteran Characters usually have more Expectations of them being Playable, along with the Popularity.

Sans, Cuphead, and Shovel Knight, as Popular as they are, weren't expected to actually show up as Playable, especially Sans considering he was considered a Meme Pick

You notice that even though Travis never made a Apperance in Smash ever, Because people were expecting im to be Playable, when his Costume showed up. people got Salt and Sad and stuff

Waluigi, Isaac, and Shadow were expected to be Playable eventually, Waluigi and Isaac for even longer than just Ultimate's Base game, and Shadow, while considered a Meme Pick in Brawl and Smash 4, Actually started to get Expected during Ultimate's Speculation. It also doesn't help that Shadow and Isaac got Deconfirmed Last Minute.

Assists, I believe as stated in Brawl, are a Way of Giving characters that couldn't be playable a Role in the actual Gameplay, and more of a Consalation prize. Considering this is looked at as a Silver Medal, There is hope these characters can one day get the Gold, But so far only 3 Assists have ever been Promoted. People majorly don't mind if characters like Jeff and Andross stay Assists forever, but Characters like Waluigi, Isaac, and Shadow (even Lyn too), people have been wanting as characters for long time. Waluigi and Shadow and Lyn have been Assists for 3 Games now. Isaac came back as an Assist after being cut in Smash 4. It's like these chraacters are not getting any closer to being Playable, and it is frustrating

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Those aren't left-field at all.

Hmmm, perhaps that wasn't the right word to use. Some of them also just don't seem as requested or seen likely as those like Crash, Dante, Lloyd, Sora, etc.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Those aren't left-field at all.

I disagree with most of them.

Any second character from an existing franchise would be incredibly unexpected.
While Lara is the most likely SquareEnix character at the moment, anything SquareEnix is a big question mark.
Nightmare & Professor Layton are generally overlooked.
Sol is pretty rarely talked about at all.


Phoenix Wright is the only one of the lot that's generally seen as a likely character.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Ah, overlooked or unexpected is the word I was probably trying to look for.

In that case, what overlooked or unexpected character do you guys think could make it in?

 

[7NATOR]

I Think a Real Left-field Pick would be an Apex Legends Character (I swear I'm not trying to shill the game or anything). I Legit think a Character from there has good Shot

 

[Guynamednelson]

Smash Bros is a game

It is? I thought it was just a list of video game franchises.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Phoenix Wright manages to make it into Smash. I'd love to see fanart between him, Banjo, and Bayonetta.

The Honorary Nintendo Character Trio.

 

[JCKirbs]

As far as “appealing to their fanbase” I think it’s understated just how many things have been covered with 1st party representation in the base game.

We have the main protagonist and main villain from several of the core franchises. We have over 10 Mario characters and 10 Pokémon characters. We have Nintendo characters new and old, highly requested and unexpected.

We even have Banjo-Kazooie, a character who characterizes a time many look back at fondly, and is one of the most hype inclusions from the viewpoint of “adding a character for first party fans”.

Now, I’m not going to say anybody should just “be fine with what they have”. That’s just rude. For context, however, we’ve got folks who are eatin good...dozens of quality Nintendo characters to choose from, stages, and music. Now, the highest requested Nintendo characters are lower in importance either as individuals or within the series they are in. While they are great characters, we’re down to picks like Dixie Kong, Waluigi, or Bandanna Waddle Dee. Dixie has been a protagonist in 2 games, one several years older than the other, while the other two are consistently supporting characters in series that have plenty of content in Smash already. You have characters such as these lines up with characters outside of Nintendo who are the lead of their respective games or series.

This is not to say they wouldn’t be quality additions, or that anybody is silly for wanting them.

However, the line of thinking that “1st party fans need to have a bone thrown to them” implies that:

1) Nintendo fans can only be pleased with Nintendo characters
2) Any 3rd party character satisfies fans who want specific 3rd party characters

Steve is cool, but does he appeal to fans of Monster Hunter or Devil May Cry? He could, but there are folks who specifically want their characters, who have no playable content or little content in the game.

Certainly, the same logic applies to folks who want Nintendo characters, but those folks might want Dixie and have 3 Donkey Kong characters, while somebody who wants 2B has...nothing.

At least, there’s where I can see the difference in appeal for fans, and the appeal for Nintendo to branch out to new brands. There is plenty of content from their own IP that it may be considered desirable on their end to continue collaborating.

So basically, I’m not telling Waluigi, Dixie, and BWD fans to shut up and accept what they have. Keep supporting your characters! However, just keep in mind where we currently are at and why many folks are more interested in 3rd parties. This doesn’t necessarily apply to myself, as I would likely be pleased with anything, but I advise folks to keep that in mind.

Frankly, if it makes anybody feel better I believe this is part of why some folks would prefer characters from new 3rd parties as opposed to those we already have. Though, most 3rd party rosters are already covered in non-playable forms. Shadow is an AT, Knuckles is an AT and costume, Tails is a costume, Zero is an AT, several Mega Man costumes, Dr. Wily is an AT, Yellow Devil Boss, etc.

I get it, but I'm still tired of people not leaving their insults in "Drafts".
I just want to root for my character, regardless of whether or not they get into:
"The Greatest Fighting Game Crossover in Video Game History, And So Help Me If Anyone Wants A Character Other Than Sora, Geno, Scorpion, 2B, Dante, Doom Slayer, Crash, Sol Badguy, or Master Chief".

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I think a great left field pick would be the left fielder from NES Baseball.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I get it, but I'm still tired of people not leaving their insults in "Drafts".
I just want to root for my character, regardless of whether or not they get into:
"The Greatest Fighting Game Crossover in Video Game History, And So Help Me If Anyone Wants A Character Other Than Sora, Geno, Scorpion, 2B, Dante, Doom Slayer, Crash, Sol Badguy, or Master Chief".

Yeah, I think that’s fair. I agree. It’s one thing to disagree, but to insult? Keep it to yourself is what I would say!

 

[Dinoman96]

If Phoenix Wright manages to make it into Smash. I'd love to see fanart between him, Banjo, and Bayonetta.

The Honorary Nintendo Character Trio.

Does Phoenix really constitutes as an "honorary Nintendo character"?

Both Banjo and Bayo have games that were published by Nintendo worldwide, that's kinda what makes them such. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Nintendo has ever had any stake in any Ace Attorney game.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Does Phoenix really constitutes as an "honorary Nintendo character"?

Both Banjo and Bayo have games that were published by Nintendo worldwide, that's kinda what makes them such. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Nintendo has ever had any stake in any Ace Attorney game.

No, but AA was a Nintendo-exclusive Capcom series until relatively recently.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Does Phoenix really constitutes as an "honorary Nintendo character"?

Both Banjo and Bayo have games that were published by Nintendo worldwide, that's kinda what makes them such. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Nintendo has ever had any stake in any Ace Attorney game.

As 3BitSaurus mentioned. Until recently the Ace Attorney series had been exclusive on Nintendo consoles.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

True, that is a good point, but then you could make a similar argument to third-party series that are already represented in other ways, like Bomberman, MH, NMH and Resident Evil. And it would also be extremely rude to say "nah, you've already got something, even though it wasn't really what you wanted". I'm not one of those people who sees Spirits or Miis as a slight or anything, but they'll never be the same as getting a full-blown character. And that applies to first parties as well.

I know that's not what you are saying, but tbh that's the vibe I get from other posts here sometimes. There's also the whole idea that any remaining first party wouldn't sell (which is a bizarre argument after the SwSh controversy, the limited time offer thing and of course, being an early-purchase bonus). This is Smash - people, especially casuals, will likely buy it regardless.

Slightly off-topic, I sometimes think that the whole "biggest crossover in gaming that will never happen again" gets overstated to fearmongering levels. Like, there's 4 slots left, it's impossible, by definition, to cover all video game icons left.

Agreed. I can see where that gets icky. In terms of the franchises you mentioned, looking at how things have gone with the timing of their representation, it seems clear that most of them are going to be stuck where they’re at...for Smash Ultimate. There’s nothing wrong with wanting them playable, but expecting them playable would be wishful thinking.

That said, as a few other folks touched on I think sometimes the fanbase can get hostile around the prospects of fictional characters in the wacky wahoo fighting game. I think sometimes problems are projected into others to essentially create problems, but then again I think there’s also a lot of mischaracterizations made to make somebody’s most wanted a more viable pick.

Like for example, shouting “fan rule!” Is one of those such things. Or just making things up is another

Strangely enough there’s an inherent emotional attachment to some characters because of the experiences we all have had with our most wanted, so it’s not so easy to just say, “Yeah, you’re right. My most wanted doesn’t have a chance”. Like nobody is going to actually say that, lol.

 

[Will]

...That explains a lot, actually.

It's a cesspool of hate. It's an origin spot for many reasons why people go "the smash fanbase is so toxic!!"

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Does Phoenix really constitutes as an "honorary Nintendo character"?

Both Banjo and Bayo have games that were published by Nintendo worldwide, that's kinda what makes them such. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Nintendo has ever had any stake in any Ace Attorney game.

I dunno, the fact that the games have been Nintendo exclusive among consoles/handhelds (not counting PC/phones) for like, 90% of the franchises lifespan, with every single significant original game in the series launching on Nintendo consoles first, kind of constitutes that. Like, even Megaman took years for Megaman 8 to release on a Nintendo system after only initially releasing on the PS1 and Saturn, Ace Attorney games never even touched Sony or Microsoft systems until last year.

 

[Dinoman96]

Eh, I don't know. Banjo-Kazooie and Bayonetta are both very unique situations in that Nintendo has or had actual stakes in both IPs: the first two Banjo games were published by Nintendo on the N64 and downright co-owned by them before the Microsoft buyout, and while Sega owns Bayonetta, Nintendo fully owns Bayonetta 2, as they were the ones who published and co-funded it. Same thing with Bayonetta 3. That is, to me, what makes them honorary Nintendo franchises/characters.

AA is just a third party series mostly associated with Nintendo platforms. Doesn't really feel that much different from like, Professor Layton or No More Heroes.

 

[SharkLord]

It's a cesspool of hate. It's an origin spot for many reasons why people go "the smash fanbase is so toxic!!"

I used to browse through there back when Nintendo was on a role last year, but after seeing actual online communities, I can't go back. Even our regularly scheduled Geno debates (Which don't seem to be as common anymore, actually) are preferable to Twitter's vitriolic mess. There's some gems hidden in there, but those are few and far in between.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...it’s not so easy to just say, “Yeah, you’re right. My most wanted doesn’t have a chance”. Like nobody is going to actually say that, lol.

Fool! You underestimate my pessimism realism!

 

[P.Kat]

Are there any characters you guys don't necessarily want, but think they'd be a lot of fun to play as if they got in?

Dante, I'd rather another particular Capcom character, but I can't deny he'd be amazing to play as.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

AA is just a third party series mostly associated with Nintendo platforms. Doesn't really feel that much different from like, Professor Layton or No More Heroes.

And who said those weren't also considered honorary Nintendo characters?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Honorary Nintendo characters don’t exist. People said it was Sonic and Mega Man who were “honorary Nintendo characters” at one point because they were “cartoony”, but that’s just not true. They’re not Nintendo characters.

You want to know another series that has had a rather substantial presence on Nintendo consoles? Monster Hunter.

I would say in terms of being seen as the “most likely Smash pick” from Capcom, that has definitely fluctuated. From Brawl to Wii U it was Phoenix (after Mega Man),but since then I’d say Phoenix has actually kinda dropped back a bit. Dante and Monster Hunter have been on the rise since DLC started.

I think what hurt Phoenix support was the fact that Nintendo connection wasn’t actively something that gave him an advantage like folks thought for awhile. Cloud really started that trend, and Joker solidified it. Snake was seen as an exception for some time and after he was cut it seemed clear that you had to be “Nintendo accepted” or something.

It’s just kind of like a...weird idea.

Though, I suppose it isn’t that different from saying like, “Look at all these Sony characters in Smash!” When referring to Snake, Cloud, and Joker.

 

[JCKirbs]

Fool! You underestimate my pessimism realism!

Honestly, I find it easier to simply expect my most wanted to come next game rather than saying: "This is how __________ can still win".

 

[3BitSaurus]

Agreed. I can see where that gets icky. In terms of the franchises you mentioned, looking at how things have gone with the timing of their representation, it seems clear that most of them are going to be stuck where they’re at...for Smash Ultimate. There’s nothing wrong with wanting them playable, but expecting them playable would be wishful thinking.

That said, as a few other folks touched on I think sometimes the fanbase can get hostile around the prospects of fictional characters in the wacky wahoo fighting game. I think sometimes problems are projected into others to essentially create problems, but then again I think there’s also a lot of mischaracterizations made to make somebody’s most wanted a more viable pick.

Like for example, shouting “fan rule!” Is one of those such things. Or just making things up is another

Strangely enough there’s an inherent emotional attachment to some characters because of the experiences we all have had with our most wanted, so it’s not so easy to just say, “Yeah, you’re right. My most wanted doesn’t have a chance”. Like nobody is going to actually say that, lol.

True. There's a huge difference between want (subjective) and chance (objective). I can't speak for everyone else, but I suppose I just miss when there was more to most of the first party selection than "is this character currently relevant". Maybe that's the old-timer in me speaking, but I come from an age where every Smash game had at least 2 or 3 characters whose series I knew nothing about. And also not knowing half the roster in other crossover games like MvC2 lol.

It was certainly very telling to me that our "wtf" pick for this Smash was... another Mario character . Instead of any of the smaller/less orthodox series that don't have a fighter. It's like the third party picks are getting whackier and more fanservice-y every time, while the first party picks sometimes feel like they get safer and more corporate with each passing game.

As for the "fan rule" tidbit, I feel like the term does apply when people take it too far - see the examples on my sig for that. But it's true that people also need to be realistic. It's just a matter of not being a **** about it, I guess.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

Strangely enough there’s an inherent emotional attachment to some characters because of the experiences we all have had with our most wanted, so it’s not so easy to just say, “Yeah, you’re right. My most wanted doesn’t have a chance”. Like nobody is going to actually say that, lol.

I mean, some of my most wanted characters since SSB4 were Lip, Shovel Knight and Wonder-Red. I'm glad they have some form of representation in Ultimate, but I think they have a 0% chance of getting promoted to full playability this game, as much as I would enjoy if they did.

I think the bigger issue generally is the people who don't distinguish between "wanting a character" and "expecting them to actually get in".

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly, I find it easier to simply expect my most wanted to come next game rather than saying: "This is how __________ can still win".

For me it's not just what is "easy", I just know that Amaterasu has a very long line ahead of her, possibly one that she'll never reach, and I'm OK with that.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Still feel Dante's looked at due to Bayonetta being in the game, not to mention those tweets a few years back which was likely a coincidence.

Also just because a game gets ported to Switch doesn't automatically means they're instantly in.

By no means I'm not saying he's won't get in because he could still get in, but he's not as likely as people makes it out to be.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honorary Nintendo characters don’t exist. People said it was Sonic and Mega Man who were “honorary Nintendo characters” at one point because they were “cartoony”, but that’s just not true. They’re not Nintendo characters.

I don't know, I definitely think Banjo & Kazooie are honorary Nintendo characters. Yeah yeah, owned by Microsoft these days, but that doesn't really change that they were Nintendo mascots during the N64 era, as Nintendo co-owned the series with Rare. Most of the support for B-K in Smash came from the notion that they were prodigal children that were tragically "stolen" from Nintendo by Microsoft in their prime, and people felt that they needed to "come home". Their whole reveal trailer literally plays off of this idea.

As for Bayo, well, you don't really see Nintendo downright adopting a third party franchise like that very often. Nintendo funding and publishing all her games after the first one is good enough for me to consider her an honorary Nintendo rep, even if she's still technically owned by Sega.

 

[7NATOR]

Are there any other Games Nintendo has Published that are currently 3rd party, in the Case of Banjo and Bayonetta?

 

[JCKirbs]

For me it's not just what is "easy", I just know that Amaterasu has a very long line ahead of her, possibly one that she'll never reach, and I'm OK with that.

Meanwhile, all of the people who thought that Steve would be too much of a childish and janky fit for Smash are quietly whistling to themselves right now.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

For me it's not just what is "easy", I just know that Amaterasu has a very long line ahead of her, possibly one that she'll never reach, and I'm OK with that.

Ammy is to busy sleeping with Issun badgering her

 

[Dinoman96]

Are there any other Games Nintendo has Published that are currently 3rd party, in the Case of Banjo and Bayonetta?

As far as Rare's games are concerned, there's Killer Instinct and Blast Corps, Nintendo also co-owned them before the buy-out. All of their other original properties like PD, Conker, Jet Force Gemini and such were always fully owned by Rare.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Meanwhile, all of the people who thought that Steve would be too much of a childish and janky fit for Smash are quietly whistling to themselves right now.

Not sure what you mean by that.

It's also not entirely correct to say that Steve's inclusion really changed many minds on that, as most of them still think he's too janky and wasn't a good fit.

 

[SneakyLink]

Are there any other Games Nintendo has Published that are currently 3rd party, in the Case of Banjo and Bayonetta?

Bayo was always third party as the first game released on the Xbox 360 and PS3 initially.

Does Pac-Man count? Pac-Man VS was developed by Nintendo (albeit published by Namco).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's a cesspool of hate. It's an origin spot for many reasons why people go "the smash fanbase is so toxic!!"

I mean. I never saw anything on twitter even half as toxic as this site during the Grinch ****. Not to mention I've had people here accuse me of sending death threats to someone because I said that someone was lying about having inside info

 

[Aerospherology]

Are there any other Games Nintendo has Published that are currently 3rd party, in the Case of Banjo and Bayonetta?

There's some. One is Scribblenauts Professor Layton.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Assists, I believe as stated in Brawl, are a Way of Giving characters that couldn't be playable a Role in the actual Gameplay, and more of a Consalation prize. Considering this is looked at as a Silver Medal, There is hope these characters can one day get the Gold, But so far only 3 Assists have ever been Promoted. People majorly don't mind if characters like Jeff and Andross stay Assists forever, but Characters like Waluigi, Isaac, and Shadow (even Lyn too), people have been wanting as characters for long time. Waluigi and Shadow and Lyn have been Assists for 3 Games now. Isaac came back as an Assist after being cut in Smash 4. It's like these chraacters are not getting any closer to being Playable, and it is frustrating

I think part of the problem is that the assists in Brawl were, if not characters that didn't make the cut, characters that fit the criteria of assisting you. By the time they got to Ultimate, they somehow kept a lot of the dropped characters as assists and added new characters that could have been fighters. There's quite a few assists I question the validity of joining in a trophy format that's not even used in the character gallery. It's as if they ditched the niche aspect of assists and just went for recognizability. Adding new fighters as DLC on top of that didn't help, with promotions as scarce as they are.

By the way, I know what you mean, but Andross would be interesting as a fighter.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think Bayonetta and Banjo-Kazooie qualify as Nintendo characters even tho they aren’t. Nintendo saved the Bayonetta franchise from extinction and are holding that IP close by making 2 & 3 Nintendo exclusives and no one can deny that Banjo was a Nintendo character in the 90s. The dude was literally in a lineup beside Mario in the back of the N64 box.

 

[LucKekkai]

Ah, overlooked or unexpected is the word I was probably trying to look for.

In that case, what overlooked or unexpected character do you guys think could make it in?

A Falcom rep(Estelle/Rean/Adol) has been brought up several times over the past few months, but I'll throw that out there anyways since I'd love to see it happen and I do think most people would be caught off guard by one of them getting in. Falcom has been porting their Ys and Trails games to the Switch over the past couple of years now, so I think it is possible.

Next, a Konami rep in the form of a Suikoden character would really shock people I think. While I don't know if I would consider it highly likely(I mean, there are only like... two Suikoden games on Nintendo consoles, and they are both spinoffs from years ago), but I do think it has a tiny chance of happening because Konami already has characters in Smash, so getting more wouldn't be too surprising. Also, the success of Eiyuden Chronicle's kickstarter proves that there is still interest in Suikoden, so if it did happen I think it would be received well enough by a decent number of people. But if I'm being perfectly honest, they would most likely choose a different Konami series if they chose one at all for the second fighters pass.

Last but not least... a Game Arts rep. Game Arts helped develop Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and GungHo ported the Grandia HD Collection to the Switch. Grandia was originally developed by Game Arts, hence why it is possible for Game Arts to have a rep from the Grandia series get into Smash. While I would prefer a Lunar rep, I still think it would be cool to get a Grandia rep. Unfortunately, Lunar only had two games(to my knowledge anyways) on Nintendo consoles, with one being a dumbed down port of the first game to the Game Boy Advance, and the other being one of the worst RPGs ever made(Lunar Dragon Song) on the DS. So Grandia would be the only realistic possibility here. I actually do think Game Arts has a decent chance of getting a character though because of their past involvement with Brawl.

 

[Dinoman96]

There's some. One is Scribblenauts,

That's not really the same thing, as Nintendo only handeled publishing for Scribblenauts Unlimited for the 3DS/Wii U versions in Europe. Whereas Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie were published worldwide and owned by Nintendo prior to 2002, or how Bayo 2 & 3 have been financed and published worldwide by Nintendo. They didn't or don't have any stakes in Scribblenauts Unlimited.